83 replies to this topic

[renfr]

I have found this page while researching on NAC : http://www.gsh4health.com/nac.html

Another danger of pulse administration of NAC is its paradoxical effect on HIV-1 replication: NAC at 2.5 m M enhances the self sustained HIV-1 replication in monocyte-derived macrophages. This effect was inhibited by ^•OH scavenger which agrees with the observation that NAC can reduce Fe³⁺ to Fe²⁺ thereby catalyzing ^•OH generation from H₂O₂ (6)
More severe and even lethal effects are related to the neurotoxicity of NAC. For example, Dr. Paul Cheney Director of the Cheney Clinic in Charlotte N.C. observed 12 patients treated with oral NAC (1 g a day). Two of these patients developed severe encephalopathy (7)

Is this bogus information to promote their Immunocal supplement or is this something to be taken seriously?

Also from what I've read and from the explanations of a member on longecity, NAC can displace mercury into the brain and turn it into Hg2+ which cannot cross back the BBB ie it cannot get out of the brain and therefore attacks it persistently.
If you don't have amalgams then no problem but what about mercury found in fish?
Even the low mercury fish, could Hg2+ accumulate overtime just from eating low mercury fish and taking NAC at the same time?

[Just Kelly]

NAC works really well for me, stops my excessive worrying. Do you think it's *really* necessary to take vitamin c with it? What about taking the c hours later?

[renfr]

NAC + C is synergic, they're both great antioxidants and immune system booster.
Combining them will enhance their effects on immune system, detoxification, skin, cell and DNA repair, etc...

[RJ100]

NAC works really well for me, stops my excessive worrying. Do you think it's *really* necessary to take vitamin c with it? What about taking the c hours later?

NAC --> oxidized cysteine --> kidney stones

My understanding is that Vit C helps prevent them from forming.

[balance]

NAC does the opposite for me. Instead of getting rid of mucus in the throat or nose I actually get more of it.. Very annoying. Stopped taking it. Also, I notice red markings on the skin from it. Not always and not a lot but definitely noticeable.

[ta5]

NAC --> oxidized cysteine --> kidney stones

Are there any reports of that actually happening?

[renfr]

NAC --> oxidized cysteine --> kidney stones

Are there any reports of that actually happening?

Unless you take massive doses that will hardly happen.
In fact, since I've been taking NAC, Vitamin E and vitamin C my kidney function got better, my glomerular filtration rate went from 101mL/min to 114mL/min in a matter of 6 months.
My consumption of fluids didn't change through that period.
Even if that happens, the increased levels of glutathione due to NAC intake would help kidney function and assist to its repair. To avoid kidney stones and maintain a good kidney function I would suggest :
- Anything that increases glutathione
- Glycine which has been shown to be nephroprotective and gives me a profound relief when my kidneys hurt
- Vitamin C, all kinds except ascorbic acid because that latter may in fact very well increase kidney stones risk
- Magnesium + B6 (ideally 10mg B6 per 100mg of elemental magnesium), they're synergic, magnesium only reduces kidney stones formation by 90%, with B6 it goes up to 96%
- Vitamin E may have nephroprotective properties
- Drinking water, it's one of the most important things to do to protect efficiently your kidneys, at least 2L of mineral water excluding water in food and sodas.

NAC contrary to cysteine is less prone to oxidation, some people claim that most of NAC supplements degrade very fastly and become totally innefective and this is why they sell what they call PharmaNAC :
http://www.bioadvant.../pharmanac.html
Or ACC Akut :
http://www.healthier...om/checkout.htm
Personally I'm not convinced these kinds of NAC are better than NAC in normal packaging, I've been experiencing the same NAC effects despite having the caps staying there for several months.

Edited by renfr, 19 March 2013 - 01:31 PM.

[HeyItsMeLC]

I have found this page while researching on NAC : http://www.gsh4health.com/nac.html

Another danger of pulse administration of NAC is its paradoxical effect on HIV-1 replication: NAC at 2.5 m M enhances the self sustained HIV-1 replication in monocyte-derived macrophages. This effect was inhibited by ^•OH scavenger which agrees with the observation that NAC can reduce Fe³⁺ to Fe²⁺ thereby catalyzing ^•OH generation from H₂O₂ (6)
More severe and even lethal effects are related to the neurotoxicity of NAC. For example, Dr. Paul Cheney Director of the Cheney Clinic in Charlotte N.C. observed 12 patients treated with oral NAC (1 g a day). Two of these patients developed severe encephalopathy (7)

Is this bogus information to promote their Immunocal supplement or is this something to be taken seriously?

Also from what I've read and from the explanations of a member on longecity, NAC can displace mercury into the brain and turn it into Hg2+ which cannot cross back the BBB ie it cannot get out of the brain and therefore attacks it persistently.
If you don't have amalgams then no problem but what about mercury found in fish?
Even the low mercury fish, could Hg2+ accumulate overtime just from eating low mercury fish and taking NAC at the same time?

what the FUUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!???!!?

Can someone please disprove this? Neurotoxicity/severe encephalopathy/lethal consequences... that's some major claims, if this were to be correct NO ONE should be consuming NAC.

Edited by HeyItsMeLC, 19 March 2013 - 07:59 PM.

[niner]

I have found this page while researching on NAC : http://www.gsh4health.com/nac.html

Another danger of pulse administration of NAC is its paradoxical effect on HIV-1 replication: NAC at 2.5 m M enhances the self sustained HIV-1 replication in monocyte-derived macrophages. This effect was inhibited by ^•OH scavenger which agrees with the observation that NAC can reduce Fe³⁺ to Fe²⁺ thereby catalyzing ^•OH generation from H₂O₂ (6)
More severe and even lethal effects are related to the neurotoxicity of NAC. For example, Dr. Paul Cheney Director of the Cheney Clinic in Charlotte N.C. observed 12 patients treated with oral NAC (1 g a day). Two of these patients developed severe encephalopathy (7)

Is this bogus information to promote their Immunocal supplement or is this something to be taken seriously?

what the FUUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!???!!?

Can someone please disprove this? Neurotoxicity/severe encephalopathy/lethal consequences... that's some major claims, if this were to be correct NO ONE should be consuming NAC.

This is nothing. It's a second hand anecdote from a sketchy marketing site.

[Just Kelly]

" what the FUUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!???!!?"

Ha, my thoughts exactly. Well I have a mouth full of silver colored fillings, should I avoid NAC then?

[renfr]

I have found this page while researching on NAC : http://www.gsh4health.com/nac.html

Another danger of pulse administration of NAC is its paradoxical effect on HIV-1 replication: NAC at 2.5 m M enhances the self sustained HIV-1 replication in monocyte-derived macrophages. This effect was inhibited by ^•OH scavenger which agrees with the observation that NAC can reduce Fe³⁺ to Fe²⁺ thereby catalyzing ^•OH generation from H₂O₂ (6)
More severe and even lethal effects are related to the neurotoxicity of NAC. For example, Dr. Paul Cheney Director of the Cheney Clinic in Charlotte N.C. observed 12 patients treated with oral NAC (1 g a day). Two of these patients developed severe encephalopathy (7)

Is this bogus information to promote their Immunocal supplement or is this something to be taken seriously?

what the FUUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!???!!?

Can someone please disprove this? Neurotoxicity/severe encephalopathy/lethal consequences... that's some major claims, if this were to be correct NO ONE should be consuming NAC.

This is nothing. It's a second hand anecdote from a sketchy marketing site.

It is lies indeed, Gustavo Bounous is a fraud. It's true NAC can cause encephalopathy and kill... but only if you OD on it and Bounous doesn't precise that.
There was a huge controversy on the claims of his product in Quebec : http://www.cbsc.ca/f...998/980814f.php

" what the FUUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!???!!?"

Ha, my thoughts exactly. Well I have a mouth full of silver colored fillings, should I avoid NAC then?

Does it contain mercury? Dunno about silver but you should be careful.

[Just Kelly]

Ok, assuming I have mercury in my teeth, is it beneficial or harmful to use NAC?

Is there a study that shows NAC increasing mercury in the brain?

Thanks for the help

Edited by Kelly H, 24 March 2013 - 02:43 AM.

[niner]

Ok, assuming I have mercury in my teeth, is it beneficial or harmful to use NAC?

Is there a study that shows NAC increasing mercury in the brain?

Well, the first question would be "Is NAC beneficial or harmful period." That's going to depend on your circumstance, and it might be the case that you don't really need it. If you want a potent antioxidant that doesn't interact with mercury, there's always c60-oo. The next question is will NAC mobilize the mercury in an amalgam filling and help it get into places it doesn't belong? The danger of that is only hypothetical. I don't think that it's actually been shown to occur. It would be a hard experiment to do, presumably involving something horridly invasive like a spinal tap or brain biopsy. Interestingly, NAC is an antidote to acute Mercury poisoning. However, that's a different situation than chronic low-level exposure. In the end, I can't say for sure if thiols like NAC or lipoic acid are a problem with amalgam fillings or not. My gut sense is that it's not a problem, but I don't have any hard evidence of that. Neither is there evidence that it is a problem, as far as I'm aware.

[renfr]

I decided to take 2100mg NAC today and it turned to be a bad idea. I have orthostatic hypotension, dizziness and I feel like I'm going to faint anytime. NAC can be responsible of hypotension according to the MIMS, I'm trying to drink more water to bring up the pressure.

[ta5]

In fact, since I've been taking NAC, Vitamin E and vitamin C my kidney function got better, my glomerular filtration rate went from 101mL/min to 114mL/min in a matter of 6 months.
My consumption of fluids didn't change through that period.
Even if that happens, the increased levels of glutathione due to NAC intake would help kidney function and assist to its repair. To avoid kidney stones and maintain a good kidney function I would suggest :
- Anything that increases glutathione
- Glycine which has been shown to be nephroprotective and gives me a profound relief when my kidneys hurt
- Vitamin C, all kinds except ascorbic acid because that latter may in fact very well increase kidney stones risk
- Magnesium + B6 (ideally 10mg B6 per 100mg of elemental magnesium), they're synergic, magnesium only reduces kidney stones formation by 90%, with B6 it goes up to 96%
- Vitamin E may have nephroprotective properties
- Drinking water, it's one of the most important things to do to protect efficiently your kidneys, at least 2L of mineral water excluding water in food and sodas.

Its sounds like you know what you're talking about with regard to kidneys.

LEF used to recommend Vitamin C with NAC to help prevent kidney stones. I think they recommended 3x as much vitamin C as NAC. That was years ago. I think they don't recommend that anymore. I don't see it on their site anymore. They just mention to drink 6+ cups of water per day.

Can you say anything else about ascorbic acid and how it promotes kidney stones? That surprises me. Are the protective forms the mineral ascorbates, like calcium ascorbate?

[renfr]

In fact, since I've been taking NAC, Vitamin E and vitamin C my kidney function got better, my glomerular filtration rate went from 101mL/min to 114mL/min in a matter of 6 months.
My consumption of fluids didn't change through that period.
Even if that happens, the increased levels of glutathione due to NAC intake would help kidney function and assist to its repair. To avoid kidney stones and maintain a good kidney function I would suggest :
- Anything that increases glutathione
- Glycine which has been shown to be nephroprotective and gives me a profound relief when my kidneys hurt
- Vitamin C, all kinds except ascorbic acid because that latter may in fact very well increase kidney stones risk
- Magnesium + B6 (ideally 10mg B6 per 100mg of elemental magnesium), they're synergic, magnesium only reduces kidney stones formation by 90%, with B6 it goes up to 96%
- Vitamin E may have nephroprotective properties
- Drinking water, it's one of the most important things to do to protect efficiently your kidneys, at least 2L of mineral water excluding water in food and sodas.

Its sounds like you know what you're talking about with regard to kidneys.

LEF used to recommend Vitamin C with NAC to help prevent kidney stones. I think they recommended 3x as much vitamin C as NAC. That was years ago. I think they don't recommend that anymore. I don't see it on their site anymore. They just mention to drink 6+ cups of water per day.

Can you say anything else about ascorbic acid and how it promotes kidney stones? That surprises me. Are the protective forms the mineral ascorbates, like calcium ascorbate?

Ascorbic acid increases concentrations of uric acid, this is because its pH is low. High uric acid causes kidney stones.
In general ascorbic acid overall in high doses (over 1g) is bad for you, not only in regard to kidney stones but also becauses it may worsen some diseases such as lyme disease.
Calcium ascorbate is kinda good if you keep it to low doses, it has 110mg calcium per gram so if you plan taking doses over 5g you shouldn't take it, it could raise calcium to dangerous levels.
The best form is sodium ascorbate because your sodium needs are higher so the risk of sodium overdose is lower.
If you prefer you can even mix ascorbate forms to avoid mineral overdose.

You have to take a lot of vitamin C with NAC because if NAC oxidizes then it could in turn cause kidney stones, vitamin C is here to prevent the oxidation.
6 cups of water isn't more than 1,2L of water which isn't a lot, 2L of water a day should be the minimum amount.

[Cassandra Coleman]

Wow there is alot of info in this thread, my question is this. What is the frequency and dose NAC should be taken for a diabetic already taking:

R-ALA
ALCAR
CARITINE BASE
RESVERATROL
ESTER C
TUMERIC
QUERCETIN
COQ10

Edited by Cassandra Coleman, 19 April 2013 - 07:22 PM.

[Kevnzworld]

Wow there is alot of info in this thread, my question is this. What is the frequency and dose NAC should be taken for a diabetic already taking:

R-ALA
ALCAR
CARITINE BASE
RESVERATROL
ESTER C
TUMERIC
QUERCETIN
COQ10

My thought would be 600 mg once daily, and not with other amino acids. That's what I take for basic glutathione support given that I drink wine and take some prescription drugs.

[niner]

My thought would be 600 mg once daily, and not with other amino acids. That's what I take for basic glutathione support given that I drink wine and take some prescription drugs.

I wouldn't expect most prescription drugs to consume GSH. I'm not really up on alcohol metabolism, although good antioxidants seem to be useful for overconsumption. Have you done any research into this, or are you just taking NAC on general principles?

[HeyItsMeLC]

Ok, assuming I have mercury in my teeth, is it beneficial or harmful to use NAC?

Is there a study that shows NAC increasing mercury in the brain?

Well, the first question would be "Is NAC beneficial or harmful period." That's going to depend on your circumstance, and it might be the case that you don't really need it. If you want a potent antioxidant that doesn't interact with mercury, there's always c60-oo. The next question is will NAC mobilize the mercury in an amalgam filling and help it get into places it doesn't belong? The danger of that is only hypothetical. I don't think that it's actually been shown to occur. It would be a hard experiment to do, presumably involving something horridly invasive like a spinal tap or brain biopsy. Interestingly, NAC is an antidote to acute Mercury poisoning. However, that's a different situation than chronic low-level exposure. In the end, I can't say for sure if thiols like NAC or lipoic acid are a problem with amalgam fillings or not. My gut sense is that it's not a problem, but I don't have any hard evidence of that. Neither is there evidence that it is a problem, as far as I'm aware.

Yeah I have not seen any studies or anecdotal evidence about this mercury issue regarding NAC. What about the small trace mercury in fish oil? Im sure many people take both NAC and fish oil as those are pretty common..as far as I know people are not dropping left and right.

Edited by HeyItsMeLC, 08 May 2013 - 07:50 PM.

[AOLministrator]

Something weird is happenning to me that partly is attributable to long-term NAC usage (1,8g per day for 3-4 month or so).

 

I did large doses of nicotine (50-80mg/day) for several weeks and also baclofen on and off, here and then (50mg/day, 100mg/day or 25mg/day but not more than 250mg/week ever). I noticed that some new adverse effect weirdness started that was likely due to the NAC, so I continued with the other drugs after a pause, the first time this crap started, but not the NAC and it got better. But then I started the NAC again after two weeks or so .. 1 week later the issues came back.

 

The symptoms are those:

My heart gets issues pumping and my limbs are colder than normal. That means that I get oversensitive to taking more nicotine. When I take less nicotine, I get vasospasms and a feeling that stuff inside my blood vessels is creeping up into my heart. Especially after warming up my legs/feet and exercise (when crap is shaked loose). I didn't do so much exercise and also rarely left the house at all, so that happened. Eventually the real issue only manifests after I quit nicotine entirely or mostly just to avoid those adverse effects.

 

Within the initial days of withdrawal, sometimes there were sharp short pains from the heart, as if something bigger than usual has passed though. Since I withdrew from the massive nicotine usage (3rd day baclofen withdrawal), it felt like really a lot of crap moved up through my heart and now it is stuck in my chest. I really shat my pants concerning stroke and thrombosis but so far nothing of that really happened.

 

 

Please note: this stuff all just happened within 1 week, no long-term symptoms, and it seems to get less critical with every day, though seemingly it doesn't really want to go entirely.

 

 

I take 3 Asperin per day that kind of keeps things smooth enough so that I can still smoke some cigarettes and do some exercise.

 

 

Now I know, I know, this all sounds largely like nicotine abuse shit. BUT, now when I eat stuff, even just a carrot, I can feel crap travelling through my blood vessels, my heart complains slilghtly or strongly depending on what I eat and how much of it. WTF? Leaky gut syndrome? Eating just makes me afraid to do much of anything now, except waiting for the sensations to pass and the heart to stop complaining about whatever material in my veins.

 

 

I have abused nicotine in the past, also baclofen GHB and whatever drugs. NEVER was there such complicated and food-related cardiovascular weirdness.

 

 

On the German wikipedia you can read that NAC is also a moderate COX-2 inhibitor. So perhaps this is linked to some prostaglandin derailment. No idea. I am doing mediterran diet now and try to get off the asperin the next week ... seriously what is this? If it weren't for the Aspirin I would have long gone to a hospital in fears of heart attack. Had headache, chest pain, somewhat high BP and pain in the eyes one day when I didn't take it (and smoked, yes, but really just a little bit).

 

Oh, in case this sensation-talk sounds delusional to you, then please acknowledge that there are people who have a much sharper internal perception than you do. And abstain from pathetic ridicule.

Edited by Aolministrator, 30 May 2015 - 09:32 PM.

[AOLministrator]

So I gave this experience further thought and I would say that NAC is definitively not safe long-term in combination with nicotine (possibly only if coadministered with baclofen).

 

None of this is researched, but the causal links I could come up with in short seem to be COX-2 inhibition which affects prostaglandin synthesis which affects blood vessel function and platelet aggregation in various ways. Nicotine has a whole lot of researched effects on blood vessels, including angiogenesis, most of them are too complex to simply explain in this thread though. Guesstimating from emerging recent research NAC also has some wide variety of effects on blood vessels, which is not nearly as well researched yet as it is in the case of nicotine. Nitric oxide also plays a role. Nothing of this is particularly predictable or obvious.

 

Concerning baclofen ... I didn't take so much of that but just to note: it is a GABA-B inhibitor, and GABA-B inhibits a wide variety of systems in your body, including endocrine systems such as HPA-axis/pituitary gland and the immune system. Conversely if the drug stops working your endocrine glands will have collected excess hormones (GH, adrenaline, prolactin, LH, etc. etc.) and posssibly release those. This links it to everything and nothing. Like I said, I didn't take so much.

 

The thing is, I take 3-5 aspirin per day now I am basically good to go (despite slightly uncomfortable sensation in the heart and lowered tolerance towards exercise/food/stress). But I don't it puts me down (headaches, heart-pumping issues, increasing anxiety, etc.). Maybe this is also related to reverse tolerance effects towards nicotine. Nicotine and coffee definitively worsen the issues short-term, but it wouldn't make sense to assume that they are the actual cause. Even if I don't smoke, I can't just drink one mild coffee anymore without noticing those weird adverse symptoms. And the really striking improvement comes from aspirin, which is most similar to NAC in effect.

 

 

Here are the (initial) NAC-related symptoms I experienced:

- increased anxiety / agitation (feeling that something is wrong)

- possibly panic attacks when falling asleep or exposed to stress

- occasional tight/painful chest or weird vasospasms

- lowered tolerance towards exercise and food

- especially lowered tolerance towards coffee, nicotine or other vasoconstrictors

- possibly fast heartbeat, pressure in the head

 

Those symptoms should all more or less get immediately better if you take more NAC, except for the anxiety and feelings of danger. This only gets worse. And so do the symptoms on the long run. My conclusion then was to withdraw from the NAC.

 

Maybe this only happens if you take a shitload of nicotine. But maybe this just makes the problem more obvious. No clue.

 

Again, I took 1.8g (sometimes 2.4g, sometimes 1.2g) most days for several month (3-5 or something).

Edited by Aolministrator, 01 June 2015 - 12:40 PM.

[aribadabar]

1.8g avg daily is a big dose.

 

600mg once every 2-3 days is what I do and I do not notice any negative effects.

[AOLministrator]

UPDATE: 1 week later.

 

I did some pretty lazy exercise regime, like jogging around the block for 10 minutes a day and not using elevators. I did more than that partially, like mild weight lifting, pushups, pullups etc. and running for an hour on Sunday and bicycling fast to do groceries half an hour. It is getting better... slowly. Yesterday I got very well through the day without Aspirin, though today this tension in the heart is getting more prominent again. I suppose, because the thromboxane it inhibits just stacks up so and so much over that timeframe. Or whatever, it feels like it just has some effect with a maybe 20-30 hour half-life that's most relevant. I took maybe 1.5-2.5g aspirin initially and now it is more like 0.5-1.5g.

 

Aspirin really seems to be the major key to lower the heart symptoms. Also what I observed often now is that the pressure ratios in the left and right parts of the heart seem to be wrong, or confused somehow. If I am physically active, the shit just works. But if I am at rest, the feelings of tension start and they shift from left to right as if the heart is unsure how to deal with the pressures and tries to figure out some usable distribution. Generally I would say there is some kind of overpressure going on in an isolated area, that somewhat can be dealt with by increasing overall pressures and speed of blood flow. Which then causes problems if that's not happening swiftly enough. If I am physically active however (which I am not, most of the time I sit or sleep like most people) naturally the muscles used suck up the overpressure, heartbeat increases blood vessels widen and such, and the system runs pretty smoothly again.

 

I suppose that's what relates to the supposed changes from the NAC, concerning blood supply to the lungs.

 

The better the heart issue gets (and it slowly gets better every day), the more nicotine I can take again and the more I can eat a non-mediterran diet (500g pork a day 4 eggs and such) *without* any following short-term complications or long-term declines. Just like it was before.

 

I can just feel it getting better every day, and nothing I did so far makes it progress to the worse on the long run. It doesn't matter what I eat, how much exercise I do, how much nicotine I take, etc. Those are all just short-term factors that make the problem worse only on the same day (mostly almost instantly) but not the day after. All I am doing is just to accelerate the progression to the better. I know very well what it would feel like to take too much nicotine and to lack some exercise intermediately. It is not what I am currently going through, by no means. I am not some fat nerd with poor health who eats pizza all day and doesn't move his ass, or whatever might spin through your mind as an alternative cause here. Those are real abnormal cardiovascular changes, linked to either all the drugs I took in combination, or just NAC itself. Not sure about the precise cause.

 

Yeah, this is a lot of first hand experience, largely just a lot of imprecise guesswork and I heavily rely on my bodily perceptions which are ambigious in nature. But still this stuff is just not normal and it happened to me somehow. I got on/off NAC a few times as explained and it seemed to have the strongest correlation. So at least it was a major contributior to the whole problem.

 

 

Well, for even further speculations I think there were just too many blood vessel remoddeling factors involved in my case. Like pituitary GH and prolactin pushes from the on/off baclofen usage, anginogenesis from nicotine and finally the NAC with COX-2 and this PAH shit messing up pressure ratios in the lung. Just guessing.

Edited by Aolministrator, 07 June 2015 - 04:47 PM.