34 replies to this topic

[spermidine]

wtf is "hederagenin" ? i found this; http://www.cognitive...&product_id=327

"AXON is based on a triterpene known as "Hederagenin" -- extracted from Hedera Helix. This triterpene is a triple monoamine reuptake inhibitor: A high-affinity substrate for the dopamine, 5-HT, and norepinephrine neural membrane transporters. (DAT, SERT, and NET, respectively.)"


wait... what ?? is this really possible ? this must be a pretty damn supplement then, dont you think so ? but... a simple search on wikipedia reveals this; http://en.wikipedia....iki/Hederagenin

"is intended for use as a seed treatment on tuber (e.g. potato seed pieces), legume, and cereal seeds or as a pre-plant root dip for roots of transplants, at planting, to prevent fungal growth, bacterial growth, and viral plant diseases"

wtf. it is for prethreatment for seeds ! it doesnt mention anywhere it has any of the amazingly proposed triple monoamine reuptake inhibitor effect !!!

can someone help me out here, IS THIS SOME SCAM ?? too good to be true i think....

[abelard lindsay]

Based on my reading of these studies below, this looks like some very strong stuff. Excercise caution.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22005599

Previous studies demonstrated that Fructus Akebiae extracts (FAE) displayed a potent antidepressant-like activity in animal behavior tests and found that the specific active ingredient from the extracts of Fructus Akebiae is hederagenin.
...
In uptake assays using rat synaptosomes and transfected cells, FAE was found to significantly inhibit all three monoamine transporters in a dose- and time-dependent manner, with a comparable or better potency to their corresponding specific inhibitors.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19931301

Fructus Akebiae is a common ingredient in many traditional Chinese medicine complex prescriptions for the treatment of mental disorders. Previous studies indicate that the main chemical compositions of Fructus Akebiae are triterpenoid saponins with hederagenin as their sapogenin. In the present study, we enriched hederagenin from the extracts of Fructus Akebiae with a purity of approximately 70%. Using behavioral tests sensitive to antidepressant drugs, we demonstrated that acute and sub-chronic administration of the extracts of Fructus Akebiae produced antidepressant-like effects, as evidenced by decreases in the duration of immobility in forced swim and tail suspension tests in mice and reversal of chronic unpredicted mild stress-induced inhibition of sucrose consumption in rats. In addition, the extracts decreased the levels of plasma adrenocorticotrophic hormone and serum corticosterone in rats exposed to chronic unpredicted mild stress. Both behavioral and biochemical effects of the extracts were mimicked by the proven antidepressant escitalopram. These results suggest that the extracts of Fructus Akebiae exert antidepressant activity. Administration of the extracts may be beneficial for patients with depressive disorders.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 09 March 2013 - 04:41 AM.

[spermidine]

wow. so extreme caution and very very strict dietery habbits on this one eh ? i wonder whats the half-life of it. i cannot find it !

[Reformed-Redan]

The compound doesn't look like a scam. The price on the website looks like a scam for the product. Dunno looks promising.

[medievil]

What a conincidence, i was looking into herbal dri's last night and found a few things that look promosing, this one could be a real good antidepressant.

Binding affinity (as Ki):
SERT at cerebral cortex: 3.89±0.18 nm
NET at hypothalamus: 0.22±0.04 nm
DAT at striatum: 2.87±0.54 nm

(NET>DAT>SERT, though very high affinity for all three.)

If this is correct this stuff must be strong

[spermidine]

i know man, this shit seems interesting, strong and to be experimented with caution. i wonder why nobody else has found this before me and tried it tho.
medievil, instead of experimenting with your crappy teas, how about go crazy and get this shit ?

[medievil]

HAHAHAHAHA

Just dont have money man, cant order owt, otherwise i would. Just being bored atm

[spermidine]

its out of stock. did anyone manage to try this yet or what....

[Mr. Pink]

don't expect too much out of it. it looks good in theory, but it's not bio-available orally. you feel it after 3 or 4 pills at once, but at that point it might just be caffeine (180-240mg).

[JohnnyP]

The company who makes it has a good track record with their other supplements, their is actually a log of Axon here http://www.prohormon...-labs-axon.html take it for whatever its worth.

[spermidine]

i need another source for hederagenin. i found some of their product on amazon, but then i realized how little pills and how much the cost and as someone said above me, at 4 pills caffeine will fuck you ip

[Erebus]

Full disclosure: I run Antaeus Labs.

Hederagenin's bioavailability is low, but it's far from zero -- it's around 0.8 - 2%, and possibly higher if the capsules are taken with food. I believe that its low bioavailability is offset by its very high affinity for monoamine transporters, and, in any case, this is the reason a normal serving of Axon contains over two grams of Hedera Helix extract.
We are aware of the fact that low and highly-variable bioavailability is a real problem, and we are working on a few chemical 'tricks' which will impart much higher & more consistent bioavailability to future batches of this product.

It's may be worth mentioning the fact that hederagenin can be detected in the cerebrospinal fluid of rats 20 minutes post oral administration, indicating that it can clear the blood-brain barrier. There's no indication, as some may presume, that the rat blood-brain barrier is any less permeable than the human blood-brain barrier. In fact, several studies have shown the opposite to be true. And although there's no data in humans, predictive models have shown us that hederagenin should be able to pass the human BBB without much difficulty

Spermidine, Medieval, and everybody else who has posted on this thread above me: PM me or email me (info[at]antaeuslabs[dot]com) if you'd like a free trial bottle.

[spermidine]

free trial bottle ? are you working for the company ? i personaly find their price too high and the caffeine content in each cap is offputting me. :s

[Mr. Pink]

i for one am very grateful for the offer of a free bottle from the owner of the company...and will report back here with any results, positive or negative

[spermidine]

fuck yeah do not forget man

[Mr. Pink]

Here's the results I've seen with Axon: 1 pill is not really noticeable, 3 pills made me nauseas (sp?). So I take 2 pills, with food, and at first you feel the caffeine, but then there is a low grade stimulant effect and it does last for a long time (much longer than the caffeine buzz). In fact, it gave me trouble sleeping after taking it in the afternoon. So, since it's advertised as a long lasting stimulant, i think it is true to the claim.

I also got some Demiruge (sp?) which is phenylpiracetam by the same brand. A couple pills (100mg) works very well for focus and memory for me. I have experience with liftmode phenylpiracetam powder, but I really like that these are in capsules so I can take them when I'm out and about. The effects take longer to begin than sublingual administration though, but they do seem to last a long time as well.

So there you have it folks, pretty happy with both of these products. Take that for what it's worth.

[Introspecta]

I've tried the Demiurge but not the Axon with good results.. The price is quite high though compared to liftmodes 5 grams for 28 bucks. I can easily cap them myself. As far as the Axon was concerned i've heard some good reports but not enough to make me want to invest in it.

[Reformed-Redan]

Full disclosure: I run Antaeus Labs.

Hederagenin's bioavailability is low, but it's far from zero -- it's around 0.8 - 2%, and possibly higher if the capsules are taken with food. I believe that its low bioavailability is offset by its very high affinity for monoamine transporters, and, in any case, this is the reason a normal serving of Axon contains over two grams of Hedera Helix extract.
We are aware of the fact that low and highly-variable bioavailability is a real problem, and we are working on a few chemical 'tricks' which will impart much higher & more consistent bioavailability to future batches of this product.

It's may be worth mentioning the fact that hederagenin can be detected in the cerebrospinal fluid of rats 20 minutes post oral administration, indicating that it can clear the blood-brain barrier. There's no indication, as some may presume, that the rat blood-brain barrier is any less permeable than the human blood-brain barrier. In fact, several studies have shown the opposite to be true. And although there's no data in humans, predictive models have shown us that hederagenin should be able to pass the human BBB without much difficulty

Spermidine, Medieval, and everybody else who has posted on this thread above me: PM me or email me (info[at]antaeuslabs[dot]com) if you'd like a free trial bottle.

Got the package today. I was expecting just one bottle; but, what a pleasant surprise when I felt two big fat bottles in a neatly packet bag. It's a little late and don't want to overstimulate myself; but, my my. Thanks to the generosity of Erebus I got an Axon bottle and Demiurge! This stuff looks like rocket fuel packed in a battery like bottle. As mentioned before Axon contains hederagenin, a potent SDNRI or NDSRI or DSNRI or whatever you want to call it, you get the point . Combined with Demiurge (Phenylpiraetam, strongest stimulant racetam out there) I think I might jump out of my socks 'morow.

Will report back. Oh, and don't forget to give thumbs up to Erebus for offering this to us!

Who knows what will happen when I give sunifiram a try with this combo...

[JohnnyP]

Full disclosure: I run Antaeus Labs.

Hederagenin's bioavailability is low, but it's far from zero -- it's around 0.8 - 2%, and possibly higher if the capsules are taken with food. I believe that its low bioavailability is offset by its very high affinity for monoamine transporters, and, in any case, this is the reason a normal serving of Axon contains over two grams of Hedera Helix extract.
We are aware of the fact that low and highly-variable bioavailability is a real problem, and we are working on a few chemical 'tricks' which will impart much higher & more consistent bioavailability to future batches of this product.

It's may be worth mentioning the fact that hederagenin can be detected in the cerebrospinal fluid of rats 20 minutes post oral administration, indicating that it can clear the blood-brain barrier. There's no indication, as some may presume, that the rat blood-brain barrier is any less permeable than the human blood-brain barrier. In fact, several studies have shown the opposite to be true. And although there's no data in humans, predictive models have shown us that hederagenin should be able to pass the human BBB without much difficulty

Spermidine, Medieval, and everybody else who has posted on this thread above me: PM me or email me (info[at]antaeuslabs[dot]com) if you'd like a free trial bottle.

Got the package today. I was expecting just one bottle; but, what a pleasant surprise when I felt two big fat bottles in a neatly packet bag. It's a little late and don't want to overstimulate myself; but, my my. Thanks to the generosity of Erebus I got an Axon bottle and Demiurge! This stuff looks like rocket fuel packed in a battery like bottle. As mentioned before Axon contains hederagenin, a potent SDNRI or NDSRI or DSNRI or whatever you want to call it, you get the point . Combined with Demiurge (Phenylpiraetam, strongest stimulant racetam out there) I think I might jump out of my socks 'morow.

Will report back. Oh, and don't forget to give thumbs up to Erebus for offering this to us!

Who knows what will happen when I give sunifiram a try with this combo...

AL are some good people, hope it yields some good results for you as I am always interested in a new stimulant lol.

[Reformed-Redan]

Reporting back in.

Just ate some eggs and then took my usual stack with 1 dose of Axon. Definitely feel a boost in energy. More focused. The uridine leveled the dopamine component out as I felt a little compulsive. General sense of well-being and more awake and aware feeling. I'll give this a try with Demiurge later on or some other time. Definitely feeling the effects. Thumbs up.

[Reformed-Redan]

Just feels great.

[Reformed-Redan]

I'm surprized this compound isn't marketed as a potent antidepressant. One thing is that once you stat taking it for that purpose you do not want to stop taking it. Hehe. The binding profile of hederagin speaks for itself.

[Introspecta]

I was given a free sample. I did not have good results. It was like taking caffiene only for me unfortunately.

[deeptrance]

Here's a user-friendly summary of hederagine pharmacology along with the author's interpretation and personal opinions:
http://hightowerphar...ederagenin.html

There's no question that it's an active compound and I'm glad to see that we're starting to get experience reports.

I just placed an order for 100 grams of 5:1 Fructus akebiae extract from a chinese medicinal herb company and will provide a report here hopefully within 2 weeks.

Edited by deeptrance, 13 May 2013 - 07:29 PM.

[Patrick Sylvester]

interesting.

AXON is based on a triterpene known as "Hederagenin" -- extracted from Hedera Helix

Hedera helix (Common Ivy, English Ivy) is a species of ivy native to most of Europe and western Asia.

This triterpene is a triple monoamine reuptake inhibitor

Examples of TRI's (Triple Reuptake Inhibitor) : Natural : Cocaine, Hyperforin (St.John's Wart)

Applications : MDD, Alcoholism, Obesity, Cocaine addiction, ADHD, Chronic pain, Parkinson's Disease, Alzheimer's Disease.

Neurotrophins
A SNDRI may also possibly be considered nootropic. There is evidence linking the use of antidepressants to increased expression of neurotrophins (in particular, BDNF). These are believed to be neuroprotective.
However, although tranylcypromine and ECS increase BDNF mRNA levels, the more selective antidepressants such as desipramine and fluoxetine have variable effects. Thus, because nonselective SNDRIs recruit a plurality of modes of activity, they are more likely to be effective at elevating BDNF RNA.

of course elevating noradrenaline, serotonin and dopamine will have various effects but good to know in case you take it and say try to fall asleep with the aid of melatonin or say take l-tyrosine as part of your daily regime. or plan on hi-dosing every day for no real reason.

[Mr. Pink]

interesting.

AXON is based on a triterpene known as "Hederagenin" -- extracted from Hedera Helix

Hedera helix (Common Ivy, English Ivy) is a species of ivy native to most of Europe and western Asia.

This triterpene is a triple monoamine reuptake inhibitor

Examples of TRI's (Triple Reuptake Inhibitor) : Natural : Cocaine, Hyperforin (St.John's Wart)

Applications : MDD, Alcoholism, Obesity, Cocaine addiction, ADHD, Chronic pain, Parkinson's Disease, Alzheimer's Disease.

Neurotrophins
A SNDRI may also possibly be considered nootropic. There is evidence linking the use of antidepressants to increased expression of neurotrophins (in particular, BDNF). These are believed to be neuroprotective.
However, although tranylcypromine and ECS increase BDNF mRNA levels, the more selective antidepressants such as desipramine and fluoxetine have variable effects. Thus, because nonselective SNDRIs recruit a plurality of modes of activity, they are more likely to be effective at elevating BDNF RNA.

of course elevating noradrenaline, serotonin and dopamine will have various effects but good to know in case you take it and say try to fall asleep with the aid of melatonin or say take l-tyrosine as part of your daily regime. or plan on hi-dosing every day for no real reason.

what's the connection with melatonin? on paper hederaginin seems really potent, but it's pretty mellow in practice, probably due to the poor bioavailability. neverteless, it does what it says, just not like let's say cocaine.

[deeptrance]

I've been taking Fructus akebiae @ 2 grams/day for a week now and have not noticed an effect. Will try larger doses. I have a feeling I wasted my money on this product, as it's not standardized for heraginin content so I may not be getting enough for it to be effective. At least it tastes pretty good, and there's nothing negative about its effects because there aren't any effects.

[deeptrance]

Here's the results I've seen with Axon: 1 pill is not really noticeable, 3 pills made me nauseas (sp?). So I take 2 pills, with food, and at first you feel the caffeine, but then there is a low grade stimulant effect and it does last for a long time (much longer than the caffeine buzz).

What you report above is almost exactly what I've experienced with taking the herbal extract of Fructus akebiae I felt nothing with 1 or 2 grams of the extract, and at 4 grams I get nauseous along with other side effects such as perspiring and feeling agitated/unsettled/anxious. I temporarily stopped taking it but will try again at maybe 2.5 grams for a few days to see if it has cumulative effects. My sense about hederagenin is that it has a long half life, because it seemed like effects of an equal dose on consecutive days increased slightly. Also, the negative effects I got from taking too much didn't dissipate until halfway through the following day.

It's possible I was experiencing interaction with other things I take because hederagenin is a triple reuptake inhibitor and probably shouldn't be combined with substances like rhodiola, stimulant supplements, and serotonergics.

Also, I'm believing that this compound really does cross the BBB in sufficient amounts to create an effect because some of what I experienced at the high dose reminded me of the negative side effects I get from SSRIs. I don't like that class of medication and maybe I shouldn't even bother with hed. for that reason, but I'm not giving up on it yet.

Edited by deeptrance, 02 June 2013 - 03:42 AM.

[neogenic]

Any updates?

[deeptrance]

Update! But I'm updating use of an herbal extract, not the pure substance.

I've found consistent results now:
- using more than a gram of the Fructus extract at a time makes me nauseated
- hederagenin seems to lengthen the duration and/or intensify the effects of "related substances"
- may potentiate MARIs and MRAs
- doesn't seem to have recreational potential on its own, which makes it a potentially useful substance for treating depression and other mental health conditions

I hope someone who is taking Axon will update, and it would be especially helpful to know if anyone has used it as a stand-alone treatment for any condition. My usage is too complicated by other substances such as a plethora of herbs and supplements, and dabbling in recreationals.