45 replies to this topic

[anagram]

Fair enough. Toluene has a much wider range of practical uses with humans than benzene, so its safe to use with reasonable purpose in mild caution. Many people are trying to reduce they're constant exposure to everyday toxins, and they are looking at all possible outcomes for a solution. I am currently about to try and see if I can dissolve C60 in Terpinene, trying to look for a solution which I can use to safely coat an object in C60 readily. I have a fleck of C60 that I am willing to spare, and I also have a bottle of pine oil that is ready to do the dirty work.

-peace

Edited by anagram, 12 March 2013 - 09:51 PM.

[pleb]

its like many substances that are toxic, but below a certain amount are not,
with any thing that may cause you harm you have to look at the amount not just the name,
but the way many of the posts were coming across made it sound as if it was a deadly poison at any amount,

[niner]

They wrote back about the solvents which were used. They used: Toluene, Hexanes, 123-ODB.
By 123-ODB, I assume she means 1,2,3 Trichlorobenzene.

123-ODB is pretty much a 123-WTF? as far as I'm concerned. "ODB" could be ortho dichlorobenzene (or ortho di-anything-benzene), but there shouldn't be any "123" with it. If they really meant trichlorobenzene, they could have called it 1,2,3-TCB or even 123-TCB and that would have been clear enough. Although chlorinated benzenes are fairly benign as far as acute tox goes, I don't want them in me because they aren't going to clear readily and chlorinated hydrocarbons just aren't very friendly actors, biologically speaking. I'd kind of like to see a CoA for this stuff. They have the technological wherewithal to analyze their own products, and undoubtedly do for their own internal QC. Now that I know there's a mystery solvent, I'd be interested in knowing exactly what it is and how much residue there is. I do appreciate that the total dose of the various impurities here is low, and probably doesn't represent a substantial risk, but I'm approaching it with a pharmaceutical mindset. In the pharma world, purity is taken pretty seriously.

I still consider the 99.9% grade to be an excellent value, but I'm also not sorry I spent twice as much for the 99.95, considering some of the other stupid crap that I've blown money on...

[ClarkSims]

Well I just heard back from SES 123 ODB is 1,2,3 Trichlorobenzene
The process described on the website, using toluene to separate the C60, is just one step in several steps. The other steps use hexanes and 1,2,3 Trichlorobenzene.

I am going with the 99.95 oven baked, because I don't want to mess with the 1,2,3 Trichlorobenzene.

The lady at SES is Chinese, and doesn't appear fully conversant in English. As I read her reply, I could interpret it several different ways. I am going with the 99.95 oven baked regardless. She wrote:


Yes these are the same.

Also what do you mean by 123-ODB?
1,2,3 Trichlorobenzene
ortho dichlorobenzene



That is just one of the process in the purification, there are other process use in the
production/extraction of the fullerene from the feed stock material .

[niner]

Sheesh. What the hell is that supposed to mean? A mixture of 1,2,3-TCB and 1,2-DCB? That might be it, but for godsake, what if you really want to know what the hell is in there? Sorry, I find this irritating. A company selling high tech chemicals should be able to do a better job than that. They ought to be able to provide a comprehensive CoA, IMO. The stuff does cost more than gold, after all- it's not like you're buying drain cleaner or lawn fertilizer.

[pleb]

probably the woman on the phone was just there to answer general questions and not totally versed in what solvent was used in the different items they produce, as they also manufacture Nano tubes and metallofullerenes,

Baatis rats were also given Carbon Tet used in engineering as a degreaser thats a far more toxic substance
the ones taking C60 were hardly effected,

as Andey points out in an earlier post the amount in 1 gram is about the recommended safe limit for a litre of drinking water,so I have no worries taking that amount ingested over the time it takes to consume 1-1/4 litres of C60-00

that's like taking 0.1 gram of poison and 1-1/4 litres of antidote, ???

Edited by pleb, 14 March 2013 - 10:40 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

All this self-experimentation is based on the idea that the rats lived longer, and the rats were given the highest purity SES product, therefore it only makes sense to copy that and not try to save a few bucks by taking material contaminated with solvents. While one might argue that the solvents are in microscopic quantities, what if C60 acted as a delivery system for those solvents and took them directly to the mitochondria?

[pleb]

yes thats a possibility, but as there are estimated to anywhere between 10 trillion to 100 trillion cells in our body and anywhere from 1 to several thousand mitochondria in each cell depending on cell type ,i don't think i'll miss a few

Edited by pleb, 14 March 2013 - 12:13 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Do you have any insight on why C70 is not a good thing?

I'd forgotten about the following paper, which was mentioned in another thread--

Uptake and distribution of fullerenes in human mast cells

In conclusion, we have identified the ER [endoplasmic reticulum ] as a primary organelle for 70-carbon based fullerene derivatives localization in human MC [mast cells] as opposed to previous publications which show 60-carbon based fullerenes localize to the mitochondria.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2888797/

[niner]

All this self-experimentation is based on the idea that the rats lived longer, and the rats were given the highest purity SES product, therefore it only makes sense to copy that and not try to save a few bucks by taking material contaminated with solvents. While one might argue that the solvents are in microscopic quantities, what if C60 acted as a delivery system for those solvents and took them directly to the mitochondria?

I just checked Baati, and they said they used 99.98% from SES. As far as I can tell, SES no longer even offers this grade, but I did see it from a different supplier, described as having been purified by sublimation. At any rate, if one is trying to duplicate Baati, then you'd want the high purity grade. I don't see how C60 could act as a delivery system for anything, though. There's only enough room inside the cage for one atom, or maybe a diatomic or a single water molecule, and even at that, the c60 would have to be synthesized around the inclusion, so it wouldn't be that way.

[pleb]

perhaps I'm looking at it differently, each buckyball is unique the impurities are in addition to the bucky balls, each bucky ball irrespective of which purity group they come from whether that's 99.5 or 99.95 are identicle, the impurities are in addition to the bucky balls not spread through them as perhaps it would be in an organic compound
how the body deals with the impurities is another matter,

Edited by pleb, 15 March 2013 - 08:46 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

All this self-experimentation is based on the idea that the rats lived longer, and the rats were given the highest purity SES product, therefore it only makes sense to copy that and not try to save a few bucks by taking material contaminated with solvents. While one might argue that the solvents are in microscopic quantities, what if C60 acted as a delivery system for those solvents and took them directly to the mitochondria?

I just checked Baati, and they said they used 99.98% from SES. As far as I can tell, SES no longer even offers this grade, but I did see it from a different supplier, described as having been purified by sublimation. At any rate, if one is trying to duplicate Baati, then you'd want the high purity grade. I don't see how C60 could act as a delivery system for anything, though. There's only enough room inside the cage for one atom, or maybe a diatomic or a single water molecule, and even at that, the c60 would have to be synthesized around the inclusion, so it wouldn't be that way.

The 99.98 was probably the 99.95 purity. Companies routinely produce and sell purities above what is advertised. (And some companies do the opposite, of course.) As for C60 acting as a delivery system, it might if the solvent is weakly bound to C60. The interaction with toluene is weak, while with DMSO it is strong. For the other solvents SES is using, who knows?

http://www.publish.c...d=SA0402264.pdf

Edited by Turnbuckle, 15 March 2013 - 10:47 AM.

[niner]

[As for C60 acting as a delivery system, it might if the solvent is weakly bound to C60. The interaction with toluene is weak, while with DMSO it is strong. For the other solvents SES is using, who knows?

http://www.publish.c...d=SA0402264.pdf

Yeah, that's a consideration. In this paper, they talked about charge-transfer "adducts", but I think they probably meant "complexes". Their English was pretty shaky, and I think something was lost in translation. A CT complex is an ionic association, and if it did occur in the olive oil solution, I don't think it would hold up through the process of digestion and hydrolysis in the aqueous environment of the body. Other possible solvent-solute interactions, like aromatic pi-stacking or the same with the added Van der Waals interactions of the chlorines in a symmetrical trichlorobenzene might be enough to perturb fluorescence spectra, but they are weak interactions- I'd expect them to fall apart somewhere in the process of going from raw c60 to fully absorbed free fatty acid adduct.

[pleb]

this is one of the papers i came across when looking into which type to buy the interesting part is at the bottom of the paper,




Has the federal government made recommendations to protect human health?

EPA has set a limit of 1 milligram per liter of drinking water (1 mg/L).
Discharges, releases, or spills of more than 1,000 pounds of toluene must be reported to the National Response Center.
The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has set a limit of 200 parts toluene per million of workplace air (200 ppm).
top
References

Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR). 2000. Toxicological Profile for Toluene. Update. Atlanta, GA: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Public Health Service.
top

Where can I get more information?

If you have questions or concerns, please contact your community or state health or environmental quality department or:
For more information, contact:
Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry
Division of Toxicology and Environmental Medicine
1600 Clifton Road NE, Mailstop F-62
Atlanta, GA 30333
Phone: 1-800-CDC-INFO · 888-232-6348 (TTY)
Fax: 1-770-488-4178
Email: <a href="mailto:cdcinfo@cdc.gov">cdcinfo@cdc.gov
ATSDR can also tell you the location of occupational and environmental health clinics. These clinics specialize in recognizing, evaluating, and treating illnesses resulting from exposure to hazardous substances.
Information line and technical assistance:
Phone: 888-422-8737
FAX: (770)-488-4178
To order toxicological profiles, contact:
National Technical Information Service
5285 Port Royal Road
Springfield, VA 22161
Phone: 800-553-6847 or 703-605-6000
Is there potential for toluene to build-up or accumulate in my body?

Toluene is readily absorbed by inhalation, ingestion and through the skin.
Inhaled toluene appears quickly in the brain fat (lipid) where it is rapidly eliminated. The half-life in human adipose tissue is 0.5-2.7 days. Toluene is removed rapidly from the blood. It is metabolized in the liver where it is converted via several steps primarily to hippuric acid, which is excreted in the urine. A small amount of toluene is also exhaled unchanged. Toluene has been identified in human milk.

[Nate-2004]

I accidentally got the 99.5% thinking that was enough, because it was cheaper. I'm debating on returning it after getting the vacuum baked. Hopefully I'm ok on this. There seem to be mixed opinions on C70 and anecdotal stories at best on whether C70 is good or bad.

 

Given that pleb is right on the FDA allowance of toluene in 1 litre of drinking water as well as comparative environmental levels of benzene we tend to breathe in every day I may just take the hit and mix this first batch with the 99.5 for practice and use the oven baked I got for the next. 

 

The olive oil I got is direct from Italy with a very recent harvest date and high polyphenol count which I think is what's really important.

 

Edited by Nate-2004, 10 May 2016 - 08:57 PM.

[niner]

One gram of 99.5% C60 has 5 milligrams of total contaminants.  A substantial majority of that is C70, so the total sample probably has about a milligram of toluene, tops.  The EPA says that a milligram per liter in your drinking water isn't going to hurt you.  You would probably drink over a liter of water a day, so that's more than a milligram.  On the other hand, in one day, you will probably consume a very small fraction of that gram of C60, so you will get a very small fraction (a few thousandths) of the dose of toluene that's considered safe.  Maybe you don't want to experiment with the c70; that's up to you, but the toluene isn't a problem.  Other people here have used 99.5% without apparent incident.