121 replies to this topic

[Michael Price]

Krillin, the study you cite does not show any prostate problem with exceeding 25mg/day of zinc, despite your claim otherwise. There is a general pattern here of problems only with unbound minerals. My supplemental minerals are organically bound. Your claim that the mice did not have their lifespan extended repeats Michael Rae's thread opening claim and has already been rebutted.

This post has nothing correct in it. Table 2: 1-24 mg/day supplement use had the lowest risk of advanced prostate cancer. The paper didn't say anything about the zinc being bound or unbound.

The study said "Supplemental zinc intake at doses of up to 100 mg/day was not associated with prostate cancer risk."

[timar]

I have one question, though. Instead of taking supplemental copper and then large amounts of zinc to decrease its absorption and thus avoid copper toxicity - why not simply avoid any supplemental copper and take a moderate amount of zinc instead, yielding the same overall Zn:Cu ratio? You would have to take less pills and could still directly donate your money to the LEF

[Michael Price]

I have one question, though. Instead of taking supplemental copper and then large amounts of zinc to decrease its absorption and thus avoid copper toxicity - why not simply avoid any supplemental copper and take a moderate amount of zinc instead, yielding the same overall Zn:Cu ratio? You would have to take less pills and could still directly donate your money to the LEF

Because I don't take the zinc just to reduce copper absorption. Zinc is a vital mineral in its own right.

[Hebbeh]

 

 

Here's an in vivo study on humans where not only did combinations work, but has been the only study to show not only memory loss halted but reversed in alzheimer's patients.  The only treatment to date to demonstrate any kind of success in alzheimer's, to my knowledge.

 

Enbrel works too. This paper's stack could use a lot of work. It recommends achieving a jaw-dropping 50-100 ng/ml vitamin D but only cites a paper that says "Our results clarify that the threshold above which older adults are unlikely to benefit from supplementation with regard to dementia risk is likely to lie in the region of 50 nmol/L" i.e. no further risk reduction above 20 ng/ml. 400 mg turmeric and 100 mg lipoic acid? Has he done any dose research outside of supplement catalogs? Grape seed monomers should be added to the stack.
 

 

 

Not all supplements were listed but I'm sure the protocol is going to be reviewed and improved like all things but the results are astounding and should be jaw dropping and speak for themselves.  And the best you can do is criticize and dismiss?  Seriously?  And I'm not aware of any literature where Enbrel has achieve any results anywhere close to this where patients have returned to performing at high level jobs.  To compare these results to Enbrel is a joke and an obvious grasping at straws to discount this amazing research for obvious bias rather than embrace it for the breakthrough it is.  And as far as the ridiculous petty comment in relation to the research being done in supplement catalogs...I'm sure you've got nothing up on...

 

Dale Bredesen, the Augustus Rose Professor of Neurology and Director of the Easton Center at UCLA, a professor at the Buck Institute, and the author of the paper.  The study, which comes jointly from the UCLA Mary S. Easton Center for Alzheimer's Disease Research and the Buck Institute for Research on Aging, is the first to suggest that memory loss in patients may be reversed, and improvement sustained

 

[krillin]

 

 

Krillin, the study you cite does not show any prostate problem with exceeding 25mg/day of zinc, despite your claim otherwise. There is a general pattern here of problems only with unbound minerals. My supplemental minerals are organically bound. Your claim that the mice did not have their lifespan extended repeats Michael Rae's thread opening claim and has already been rebutted.

This post has nothing correct in it. Table 2: 1-24 mg/day supplement use had the lowest risk of advanced prostate cancer. The paper didn't say anything about the zinc being bound or unbound.

The study said "Supplemental zinc intake at doses of up to 100 mg/day was not associated with prostate cancer risk."

 

They had to say that because their error bars were large enough to include 1 over the range 25-100 mg/day. As someone risking their health, you should be cautious and assume that the relative risks would be statistically significant in a more powerful study, and that the dose should thus be kept under 25 mg until evidence pops up that suggests that more is better.

[krillin]

And as far as the ridiculous petty comment in relation to the research being done in supplement catalogs...I'm sure you've got nothing up on...

 

Dale Bredesen, the Augustus Rose Professor of Neurology and Director of the Easton Center at UCLA, a professor at the Buck Institute, and the author of the paper.  The study, which comes jointly from the UCLA Mary S. Easton Center for Alzheimer's Disease Research and the Buck Institute for Research on Aging, is the first to suggest that memory loss in patients may be reversed, and improvement sustained

 

 

 

Argument from authority fallacy.

 

Do you really believe that 400 mg turmeric and 100 mg lipoic acid are clinically-relevant doses?
 

[Hebbeh]

 

And as far as the ridiculous petty comment in relation to the research being done in supplement catalogs...I'm sure you've got nothing up on...

 

Dale Bredesen, the Augustus Rose Professor of Neurology and Director of the Easton Center at UCLA, a professor at the Buck Institute, and the author of the paper.  The study, which comes jointly from the UCLA Mary S. Easton Center for Alzheimer's Disease Research and the Buck Institute for Research on Aging, is the first to suggest that memory loss in patients may be reversed, and improvement sustained

 

 

 

Argument from authority fallacy.

 

Do you really believe that 400 mg turmeric and 100 mg lipoic acid are clinically-relevant doses?
 

 

 

Obviously as part of the "Complex Dietary Supplementation" they were very relevant. Do the results not speak for itself?  Did they not suggest the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and that was the whole purpose of the protocol?  Are you suggesting mega doses would of somehow provided even superior results?  Or are you suggesting the results are fabricated?  Are you suggesting that if a loved one had onset dementia, you would consider the protocol a waste of time and not consider or suggest it?  What are you suggesting?  Quite honestly, I have no idea what horse you're trying to beat...other than being in denial that a complex regimen of common over the counter supplements could contribute to these incredible results that no expensive and profitable drugs have been able to come close to achieving.

 

 

Of the six patients who had to discontinue working or were struggling with their jobs at the time they joined the study, all were able to return to work or continue working with improved performance. Improvements have been sustained, and as of this writing the longest patient follow-up is two and one-half years from initial treatment. These first ten included patients with memory loss associated with Alzheimer's disease (AD), amnestic mild cognitive impairment (aMCI), or subjective cognitive impairment (SCI; when a patient reports cognitive problems). One patient, diagnosed with late stage Alzheimer's, did not improve.

 

 

Most of the factors of which such a system is comprised have already been shown to exert modest effects (trends that often have not reached statistical significance) on AD or animal models of AD, but there has been little evaluation of such a complete system.

 

 

In the case of Alzheimer's disease, Bredesen notes, there is not one drug that has been developed that stops or even slows the disease's progression, and drugs have only had modest effects on symptoms. "In the past decade alone, hundreds of clinical trials have been conducted for Alzheimer's at an aggregate cost of over a billion dollars, without success," he said.

 

 

It is recognized that the system described here is an initial system, one that is likely to benefit from optimization. The system is designed to address multiple key pathogenetic mechanisms, but most of the key pathogenetic mechanisms are suboptimally affected by this initial system. This highlights multiple potential therapeutic targets, and optimizing the therapeutics for each of these targets is the goal of ongoing research and development.

 

Edited by Hebbeh, 08 October 2014 - 01:43 AM.

[krillin]

Obviously as part of the "Complex Dietary Supplementation" they were very relevant. Do the results not speak for itself?  Did they not suggest the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and that was the whole purpose of the protocol?  Are you suggesting mega doses would of somehow provided even superior results?  Or are you suggesting the results are fabricated?  Are you suggesting that if a loved one had onset dementia, you would consider the protocol a waste of time and not consider or suggest it?  What are you suggesting?  Quite honestly, I have no idea what horse you're trying to beat...other than being in denial that a complex regimen of common over the counter supplements could contribute to these incredible results that no expensive and profitable drugs have been able to come close to achieving.

 

 

To answer your questons: no; yes; possibly; no; I'd use a better-designed protocol.; I'm giving constructive criticism.

 

Some patients didn't take the turmeric or lipoic acid and they got results, so they clearly were not essential. Since those tiny doses have never been shown to have an effect on their own, we have to assume that they were cosmetic until someone does a dose-finding experiment that proves that the doses contributed something. The paper noted that people were complaining about pill count, so thought should go into each one.

 

[Hebbeh]

 

Obviously as part of the "Complex Dietary Supplementation" they were very relevant. Do the results not speak for itself?  Did they not suggest the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and that was the whole purpose of the protocol?  Are you suggesting mega doses would of somehow provided even superior results?  Or are you suggesting the results are fabricated?  Are you suggesting that if a loved one had onset dementia, you would consider the protocol a waste of time and not consider or suggest it?  What are you suggesting?  Quite honestly, I have no idea what horse you're trying to beat...other than being in denial that a complex regimen of common over the counter supplements could contribute to these incredible results that no expensive and profitable drugs have been able to come close to achieving.

 

 

To answer your questons: no; yes; possibly; no; I'd use a better-designed protocol.; I'm giving constructive criticism.

 

Some patients didn't take the turmeric or lipoic acid and they got results, so they clearly were not essential. Since those tiny doses have never been shown to have an effect on their own, we have to assume that they were cosmetic until someone does a dose-finding experiment that proves that the doses contributed something. The paper noted that people were complaining about pill count, so thought should go into each one.

 

 

 

You consider the results not relevant but acknowledge not fabricated and then admit you would utilize your version of the protocol....contradictory much?

 

In regards to criticism....more like attempting to split hairs to argue simply for the sake of argument as the authors have already stated....

 

It is recognized that the system described here is an initial system, one that is likely to benefit from optimization. The system is designed to address multiple key pathogenetic mechanisms, but most of the key pathogenetic mechanisms are suboptimally affected by this initial system. This highlights multiple potential therapeutic targets, and optimizing the therapeutics for each of these targets is the goal of ongoing research and development.

 

 

And in regards to relevance, dose, and essential need of some supplements due to not all patients receiving the same regimen was well explained...

 

Bredesen's approach is personalized to the patient, based on extensive testing to determine what is affecting the plasticity signaling network of the brain. As one example, in the case of the patient with the demanding job who was forgetting her way home, her therapeutic program consisted of some, but not all of the components involved with Bredesen's therapeutic program

 

 

It is unfortunate that the discussion has degenerated into attempts to nit pick and criticize instead of applauding the ground breaking results.  What do you believe the patients would have to say of your relentless criticism in attempting to marginalize the results?

[blood]

What do you believe the patients would have to say of your relentless criticism in attempting to marginalize the results?

 
The results of the study are very exciting. But we should definitely keep our 'critical thinking' caps on... I don't think we should be objecting to krillin or anyone else poking away at the protocol & study.
 
Just as a smug/self-satisfied aside, I'm implementing most of the elements of the protocol... thus the results of this small, pilot study make me think I am "on track" wrt warding off dementia... I'd guess many Longecity members would have a regimen similar to this protocol... There are a few elements of the protocol that I haven't addressed/ don't do, such as "nocturnal oxygenation" (haven't been assessed for sleep apnea). I don't use MCTs either.

I think there are a few odd perhaps even glaring omissions from the protocol... micro-dose lithium (recall the recent study which found 300 mcg lithium as the gluconate or carbonate taken for an extended period appeared to halt further progression of dementia... low dose lithium is harmless, so why not take it). Creatine is arguably a strange omission, too.

Edited by blood, 08 October 2014 - 04:21 AM.

[Michael Price]

Krillin, you say "Since those tiny doses have never been shown to have an effect ***on their own***, we have to assume that they were cosmetic until someone does a dose-finding experiment that proves that the doses contributed something.".
Or we could take seriously the concept of synergy, throw out the precautionary principle and start supplementing. I started meagdosing 32 years ago precisely for these reasons and have no regrets. The recent combo results vindicate my approach. You are entitled to take the converse position - just make sure you don't end up the smartest corpse in the cemetery, because that is the potential downside of your position, namely that you will age normally and suffer the associated fate.

[blood]

... throw out the precautionary principle and start supplementing. I started meagdosing 32 years ago...

 

Of course, one of the steps in the protocol we are discussing is to avoid, urgently attend to, transition metal (copper, manganese, iron) toxicity.

 

You seem to be running in the opposite direction, and are very cavalier about it.

[Michael Price]

... throw out the precautionary principle and start supplementing. I started meagdosing 32 years ago...

Of course, one of the steps in the protocol we are discussing is to avoid, urgently attend to, transition metal (copper, manganese, iron) toxicity.

You seem to be running in the opposite direction, and are very cavalier about it.

I do avoid iron, but am not convinced about the evils of bound copper. Manganese is more of a dark horse; my intake will reduce when I update my multi-mineral stock. Generally, though, the studies cited here highlight the dangers of free transition metals, but not of the complexed forms.

[niner]

Generally, though, the studies cited here highlight the dangers of free transition metals, but not of the complexed forms.

When they talk about "bound" forms of transition metals, that would typically mean locked up in a protein that wraps around the metal and holds on tight. I'm not sure that the typical chelating agents like gluconate count in this regard. I'd like to know more about this- it is probably the case that there are safer and less safe versions of these agents.

[Dorian Grey]

Regarding protein bound transition metals, we might also consider how and when they become "unbound"...

 

Ferritin is supposed to keep stored iron safely locked away in a non-reactive state, but there are physiological occurrences that can cause large amounts of ferritin to release its iron, like acidosis.  

 

When one has a stroke or heart attack, it is often not the ischemia that causes damage, but a "reperfusion injury" that occurs when the clot is cleared and oxygenated blood flow is restored to the organ.  Acid, or acidosis it seems will dissolve minerals whether they are bound to proteins or not.  When hypoxia or ischemia renders blood and/or tissue acidotic, transition minerals are freed from their protective proteins.  Restore oxygen and the resulting massive oxidative event is what destroys brain or heart tissue.  

 

I never understood how sleep apnea could cause heart disease until I understood the dangers of acidosis and transition metals.  Sleep apnea causes transient acidosis and the resulting liberation of transition metals oxidizes susceptible lipids (ldl cholesterol) which form plaques in blood vessels.  

 

This is why it may be unwise to carry around an overabundance of stored transition metals.  God help you if they ever get freed by a transient physiological event!  Donate blood to keep iron low...  Chelate copper to keep it low...  Cycle on and off this protocol to insure you don't get too low.  I've been doing this for several years now and feel as though I've found the Fountain of Youth.  Never felt better in my life (at 58) and my health had been declining in my early 50s.  Arthritis, back pain, fatty liver, recurring transient fatigue and malaise.  All largely gone now for quite some time.  

Edited by synesthesia, 08 October 2014 - 04:24 PM.

[krillin]

You consider the results not relevant but acknowledge not fabricated and then admit you would utilize your version of the protocol....contradictory much?

 

What do you believe the patients would have to say of your relentless criticism in attempting to marginalize the results?

 

We were talking about the homeopathic doses of turmeric and lipoic acid. The success of the protocol is not relevant when considering whether or not the doses of these two contributed, so there is no inconsistency on my part.

 

If the doses had been 1 mg each would you still be insisting that they were effective contributors? If no, then why do you think the doses they used were effective, since they have never given results different from placebo and are thus clinically similar to 1 mg.

 

If you'll re-read what I wrote, you'll find that I have not marginalized the results. I have merely 1) pointed out that you were wrong to say that "The only treatment to date to demonstrate any kind of success in alzheimer's, to my knowledge."; 2) mentioned that I believe that the stack design was the result of sloppy and negligent research and ridiculed Bredesen appropriately; and 3) given suggestions for improvement.

 

I think that if the patients read this thread, they will wonder how Bredesen could have been so ignorant of knowledge that an amateur such as myself possesses. It takes at least 0.1 microM curcumin to reduce amyloid plaque (and 8 microM looks a lot better). 0.1 microM would require at least 2 g of Longvida or BCM-95. Giving 12 grams of unformulated curcumin yields zero microM. Assuming turmeric is 3.14% curcumin, we get 382 g of turmeric = zero microM curcumin. So Bredesen used a dose about 1/1000 of that already shown to put nothing of use against amyloid into the blood stream.
 

[Michael Price]

Do you really believe that 400 mg turmeric and 100 mg lipoic acid are clinically-relevant doses?

You're ignoring the possibility of synergy.

[krillin]

 

Do you really believe that 400 mg turmeric and 100 mg lipoic acid are clinically-relevant doses?

You're ignoring the possibility of synergy.

 

 

Why not take proven effective doses instead of praying that synergy will allow tiny doses to save your butt? What doses of curcumin and lipoic acid would you recommend? I say 4 g Longvida or BCM-95 (Since those are the highest doses that I have data for. They don't max out the anti-amyloid effect or reach the 2.5 microM mTOR inhibition level, but I wouldn't want to waste money on doses that might not be any better than 4 g.) and ~435 mg Na-RALA (the amount required to reach 50 microM and activate Nrf2).
 

[Michael Price]

Do you really believe that 400 mg turmeric and 100 mg lipoic acid are clinically-relevant doses?

You're ignoring the possibility of synergy.

Why not take proven effective doses instead of praying that synergy will allow tiny doses to save your butt? What doses of curcumin and lipoic acid would you recommend? I say 4 g Longvida or BCM-95 (Since those are the highest doses that I have data for. They don't max out the anti-amyloid effect or reach the 2.5 microM mTOR inhibition level, but I wouldn't want to waste money on doses that might not be any better than 4 g.) and ~435 mg Na-RALA (the amount required to reach 50 microM and activate Nrf2).

You already know my daily dose of ALA. You posted it earlier on this thread, remember?

[krillin]

 

 

 

Do you really believe that 400 mg turmeric and 100 mg lipoic acid are clinically-relevant doses?

You're ignoring the possibility of synergy.

Why not take proven effective doses instead of praying that synergy will allow tiny doses to save your butt? What doses of curcumin and lipoic acid would you recommend? I say 4 g Longvida or BCM-95 (Since those are the highest doses that I have data for. They don't max out the anti-amyloid effect or reach the 2.5 microM mTOR inhibition level, but I wouldn't want to waste money on doses that might not be any better than 4 g.) and ~435 mg Na-RALA (the amount required to reach 50 microM and activate Nrf2).

You already know my daily dose of ALA. You posted it earlier on this thread, remember?

 

500 mg racemic, correct? So only 250 mg of R-lipoic acid? Why underdose it when you grossly overdose so many other things? Are you counting on a specific quantifiable synergy, or just your general wishful thinking synergy?

[Michael Price]

Do you really believe that 400 mg turmeric and 100 mg lipoic acid are clinically-relevant doses?

You're ignoring the possibility of synergy.

Why not take proven effective doses instead of praying that synergy will allow tiny doses to save your butt? What doses of curcumin and lipoic acid would you recommend? I say 4 g Longvida or BCM-95 (Since those are the highest doses that I have data for. They don't max out the anti-amyloid effect or reach the 2.5 microM mTOR inhibition level, but I wouldn't want to waste money on doses that might not be any better than 4 g.) and ~435 mg Na-RALA (the amount required to reach 50 microM and activate Nrf2).

You already know my daily dose of ALA. You posted it earlier on this thread, remember?

500 mg racemic, correct? So only 250 mg of R-lipoic acid? Why underdose it when you grossly overdose so many other things? Are you counting on a specific quantifiable synergy, or just your general wishful thinking synergy?

Do you know how to ask an unloaded question?

[Hebbeh]

We were talking about the homeopathic doses of turmeric and lipoic acid.

 

 

Homeopathic doses?  Can you stretch and distort any further...now you're just getting ridiculous to again argue for the sake of arguing....nonsense.  And no, we most certainly were not just discussing turmeric and lipoic acid.  Dodge and weave much?

 

 The success of the protocol is not relevant when considering whether or not the doses of these two contributed

 

 

Bottom line is the protocol was wildly successful...and it was the sum of it's parts....and remember, this protocol was not designed just for alzheimer's....there was an assortment of disease states and thus why each patient's regimen was personalized.  Each ingredient  has multiple effects on multiple pathologies and some of the disease states didn't involve amyloid plaque....and amyloid does serve a healthy purpose as long as it stays in proper  balance.

 

If the doses had been 1 mg each would you still be insisting that they were effective contributors?

 

 

Once again you are getting totally ridiculous and most of this doesn't deserve a response.....seriously?

 

If you'll re-read what I wrote, you'll find that I have not marginalized the results.

 

 

Yes you have....your entire line of posting was to not acknowledge that supplements could have this degree of effect...remember the thread we are posting in?  Do I need to copy and paste all your initial posts?  Are you back peddling now?

 

I have merely 1) pointed out that you were wrong to say that "The only treatment to date to demonstrate any kind of success in alzheimer's, to my knowledge."

 

 

You haven't proven I'm wrong...it's easy to call liar when not posting proof.  To say all the drugs and studies to date have been disappointing would be an understatement.  At best maybe delay symptoms for a year....but to allow individuals that were no longer able to work to return to high level jobs and continue to be excelling two and half years later?  What miracle drugs have I and the rest of us missed?

 

2) mentioned that I believe that the stack design was the result of sloppy and negligent research and ridiculed Bredesen appropriately

 

 

Needs no comment ...you continue that line even in this post.....but I could copy and paste if necessary.

 

3) given suggestions for improvement.

 

 

You haven't given any suggestions....only criticized and marginalized....seriously?

 

 

I think that if the patients read this thread, they will wonder how Bredesen could have been so ignorant of knowledge that an amateur such as myself possesses. It takes at least 0.1 microM curcumin to reduce amyloid plaque (and 8 microM looks a lot better). 0.1 microM would require at least 2 g of Longvida or BCM-95. Giving 12 grams of unformulated curcumin yields zero microM. Assuming turmeric is 3.14% curcumin, we get 382 g of turmeric = zero microM curcumin. So Bredesen used a dose about 1/1000 of that already shown to put nothing of use against amyloid into the blood stream.

 

 

Full of yourself much?  As stated, not all patients had alzheimer's...there was a variety of dementia pathologies involved and the protocol had dramatic results on a variety of types of dementia and thus why the regimen was personalized.  Not all patients had amyloid plaques.  And with respect to turmeric....the magic of turmeric was discovered at normal dietary intakes as curry....that's where the first clinical quality results were noticed.  Nice try though.

[timar]

The pharmacokinetics of lipoc acid and curcumin - let alone whole turmeric with all its chemical complexity - are far from being definitively known. Let's not walk into the reductionist trap by taking the dim flashlight of our current knowledge for the bright sunshine.

 

400 mg turmeric for example, may seem negligible judged by its content of curcumin, but then we have a study such as this:

 

 

Note that they administered 300 mg of turmeric(!) in this study, causing a remarkably strong DNA protection ex vivo.

Edited by timar, 09 October 2014 - 07:46 PM.

[krillin]

 

And no, we most certainly were not just discussing turmeric and lipoic acid.

 

Wrong. Here is the exchange.

Me: Do you really believe that 400 mg turmeric and 100 mg lipoic acid are clinically-relevant doses?

You: Obviously as part of the "Complex Dietary Supplementation" they were very relevant. Do the results not speak for itself?

Me: No.

 

 

Bottom line is the protocol was wildly successful...and it was the sum of it's parts....and remember, this protocol was not designed just for alzheimer's....there was an assortment of disease states and thus why each patient's regimen was personalized. Each ingredient  has multiple effects on multiple pathologies and some of the disease states didn't involve amyloid plaque....and amyloid does serve a healthy purpose as long as it stays in proper  balance.

There is insufficient evidence to conclude that every component was necessary. The only stack listed which contained turmeric was given to patient number 2 who had early AD. Furthermore, Table 1 identified curcumin's role as "Reduction of Aβ". So the intent of the 400 mg turmeric was clearly to reduce amyloid in AD, which is a ridiculous mismatch between goal and technique.

 

 

your entire line of posting was to not acknowledge that supplements could have this degree of effect...remember the thread we are posting in?  Do I need to copy and paste all your initial posts?  Are you back peddling now?

The two papers in question are entirely different subjects that happen to be in the same thread. My opinion of the first paper was that the supplements did nothing about aging because they failed to increase maximum lifespan beyond that achievable with good animal husbandry. (And with good animal husbandry, they had no effect whatsoever.) I have criticized the selection of the second paper's supplements without offering a general opinion. I'll give it now: Woohoo! Supplements had a nice effect. But they didn't work in the person with late AD, so it's possible that they just allow you to overcome effects of lower levels of amyloid/tau but stop working once the amyloid/tau burden becomes too large to cope with. So it'd be like curve-squaring, except that you're squaring mental function instead of lifespan.

 

 

You haven't proven I'm wrong...it's easy to call liar when not posting proof.  To say all the drugs and studies to date have been disappointing would be an understatement.  At best maybe delay symptoms for a year....but to allow individuals that were no longer able to work to return to high level jobs and continue to be excelling two and half years later?  What miracle drugs have I and the rest of us missed?

You said no drug had "any kind of success in alzheimer's". Enbrel has had a kind of success, and I linked to a paper, so I have proven you wrong. Here's one with impressive case reports, and Figure 1 shows that the results are durable for at least 6 months. They were retired so you can't expect them to have returned to work.

 

 

You haven't given any suggestions....only criticized and marginalized....seriously?

This is a stupid lie. I suggested lowering the vitamin D target, adding grape seed monomers, using a larger dose of lipoic acid, and using a curcumin supplement that can be expected to give meaningful blood levels.

 

 

And with respect to turmeric....the magic of turmeric was discovered at normal dietary intakes as curry....that's where the first clinical quality results were noticed.

Reference please.
 

[Hebbeh]

 

 

And no, we most certainly were not just discussing turmeric and lipoic acid.

 

Wrong. Here is the exchange.

Me: Do you really believe that 400 mg turmeric and 100 mg lipoic acid are clinically-relevant doses?

You: Obviously as part of the "Complex Dietary Supplementation" they were very relevant. Do the results not speak for itself?

Me: No.

 

 

You are wrong and you are lying and now you are making a lame attempt to back peddle and twist the facts.  The whole exchange included more than a single statement from a single post in the pages of exchanges about the Bredesen study.  Even your current post discusses more than turmeric and lipoic acid to prove your agenda and intentions and constant twisting of the facts at hand.   You are obviously biased and closed minded in regards to this study because it has shook your beliefs and you aren't ready to see the light.

Edited by Hebbeh, 10 October 2014 - 11:50 AM.

[Hebbeh]

mentioned that I believe that the stack design was the result of sloppy and negligent research and ridiculed Bredesen appropriately

 

 

This sums up your biased "argument".

[Michael Price]

mentioned that I believe that the stack design was the result of sloppy and negligent research and ridiculed Bredesen appropriately

This sums up your biased "argument".

It would be amusing to see Krillin's stack, perfect presumably since he knows everything.

[krillin]

It would be amusing to see Krillin's stack, perfect presumably since he knows everything.

 

Fair enough. You showed me yours, I'll show you mine. It's not perfect and I welcome references with data showing where I can make improvements. I'm not taking lipoic acid because resveratrol pretty much has those benefits covered and more. I'm not currently taking curcumin because I'm waiting for Novasol to hit the market. Its bioavailability is so high that 500 mg yields 3.2 microM in the blood, which is mTOR-inhibiting so I'll probably do 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off like in the rapamycin studies.

 

10,000 IU Vitamin A (1/week)

150 mg Benfotiamine, 10 mg B2, 50 mg B5, 10 mg B6, 500 mcg Methylcobalamin, 100 mcg Folic Acid (target = 400 mcg total)

250 mg Inositol Hexanicotinate (every other day)

100 mg P5P

500 mg Vitamin C

5000 IU Vitamin D (6/week) (target = 35 ng/ml)

FamilE (250 mg gamma, 41 mg alpha, 38 mg tocotrienols)

90 mcg Vitamin MK-7

3 g Potassium Citrate Monohydrate (to give me the gram of K I need to reach the RDA, and also provide base equivalents to prevent osteopenia and sarcopenia)

250 mg Calcium (MCHC) (upper limit = 1 g, I average 900 mg)

100 mg Butyrate (with Ca & Mg counterions) (target Mg > 400 mg, I average 500 mg)

15 mg Zinc Citrate + 7.5 mg diet = 22.5 mg

5 mg Lithium Orotate

Boron isn't required since my diet puts me above the 99th percentile.

500 mcg Chromium

200 mcg MeSC (Yields blood level of 124 ng/ml. target = 130)

225 mcg Iodine

10 mg Lutein, 3.75 mg Zeaxanthin, 6 mg Astaxanthin

100 mg Chlorophyllin

1000 mg Citrus Bioflavonoids

400 mg Coffee Extract

1 g Kyolic Garlic

250 mg Glucarate

500 mg Ginger Root

800 mg 60% Green Tea Extract

150 mg Grapeseed Extract (MegaNatural-BP for low molecular weight)

300 mg Pomegranate Extract (Jarrow's)

250 mg Resveratrol (Revgenetics)

400 mg White Willow Bark Extract

100 mg CoQ10

10 mg PQQ (2/week)

1500 mg Carnosine

900 mg alpha-GPC (to reach RDA)

100 mg Seriphos

500 mg Taurine

200 mg Theanine

1 g Ovega-3 (target = 40% n-3/60% n-6 in LCPUFA fraction of membranes, DHA >22%)

1 g Flaxseed Oil

500 mg Sesame Lignans

40 mg Undenatured Collagen Type-II (1/week)

1500 mg Glucosamine, 1000 mg Chondroitin, 1000 mg MSM, 100 mg Hyaluronic Acid

1200 GDU Bromelain

1 g Reishi Extract (120 mg polysaccharides, 80 mg triterpenes, 200 mg cracked spores)

LEF's Advanced Oral Hygiene Probiotic (1/week)

150 mg DHEA (target 400 mcg/dl)

1000 mg Tribulus (5/week) (may increase in future to reach free T target of 20-25 pg/ml)

Miralax

[albedo]

I am impressed Krillin. Thank you for having shared your stack. Surely this is not my business but wonder how much roughly this costs you monthly (no problem if you do not feel to disclose). My stack, also disclosed somewhere here, gets to about 300-400$/m almost all from LEF, but I am not completely happy and plan changes to simplify and be more focused.

[Michael Price]

It would be amusing to see Krillin's stack, perfect presumably since he knows everything.

Fair enough. You showed me yours, I'll show you mine. It's not perfect and I welcome references with data showing where I can make improvements. I'm not taking lipoic acid because resveratrol pretty much has those benefits covered and more. I'm not currently taking curcumin because I'm waiting for Novasol to hit the market. Its bioavailability is so high that 500 mg yields 3.2 microM in the blood, which is mTOR-inhibiting so I'll probably do 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off like in the rapamycin studies.

10,000 IU Vitamin A (1/week)
150 mg Benfotiamine, 10 mg B2, 50 mg B5, 10 mg B6, 500 mcg Methylcobalamin, 100 mcg Folic Acid (target = 400 mcg total)
250 mg Inositol Hexanicotinate (every other day)
100 mg P5P
500 mg Vitamin C
5000 IU Vitamin D (6/week) (target = 35 ng/ml)
FamilE (250 mg gamma, 41 mg alpha, 38 mg tocotrienols)
90 mcg Vitamin MK-7
3 g Potassium Citrate Monohydrate (to give me the gram of K I need to reach the RDA, and also provide base equivalents to prevent osteopenia and sarcopenia)
250 mg Calcium (MCHC) (upper limit = 1 g, I average 900 mg)
100 mg Butyrate (with Ca & Mg counterions) (target Mg > 400 mg, I average 500 mg)
15 mg Zinc Citrate + 7.5 mg diet = 22.5 mg
5 mg Lithium Orotate
Boron isn't required since my diet puts me above the 99th percentile.
500 mcg Chromium
200 mcg MeSC (Yields blood level of 124 ng/ml. target = 130)
225 mcg Iodine
10 mg Lutein, 3.75 mg Zeaxanthin, 6 mg Astaxanthin
100 mg Chlorophyllin
1000 mg Citrus Bioflavonoids
400 mg Coffee Extract
1 g Kyolic Garlic
250 mg Glucarate
500 mg Ginger Root
800 mg 60% Green Tea Extract
150 mg Grapeseed Extract (MegaNatural-BP for low molecular weight)
300 mg Pomegranate Extract (Jarrow's)
250 mg Resveratrol (Revgenetics)
400 mg White Willow Bark Extract
100 mg CoQ10
10 mg PQQ (2/week)
1500 mg Carnosine
900 mg alpha-GPC (to reach RDA)
100 mg Seriphos
500 mg Taurine
200 mg Theanine
1 g Ovega-3 (target = 40% n-3/60% n-6 in LCPUFA fraction of membranes, DHA >22%)
1 g Flaxseed Oil
500 mg Sesame Lignans
40 mg Undenatured Collagen Type-II (1/week)
1500 mg Glucosamine, 1000 mg Chondroitin, 1000 mg MSM, 100 mg Hyaluronic Acid
1200 GDU Bromelain
1 g Reishi Extract (120 mg polysaccharides, 80 mg triterpenes, 200 mg cracked spores)
LEF's Advanced Oral Hygiene Probiotic (1/week)
150 mg DHEA (target 400 mcg/dl)
1000 mg Tribulus (5/week) (may increase in future to reach free T target of 20-25 pg/ml)
Miralax

Is that elemental 5mg Li?
No magnesium, carnitine or RNA?
I think resveratrol is way over hyped (like vitamin E, which I only take because it is in the LEF mix). Very unlikely that resveratrol can substitute for lipoic acid, since the later sources a coenzyme.