1565 replies to this topic

[emckai]

Isochroma, i'll update you probably tomorrow. Most likely i'll just made the capsules tonight and take them tomorrow.

I'll do 50-60mg of Sunifiram and 50-60mg Sunifiram + 300mg Choline Bitartrate.

[alecnevsky]

15mg-20mg Suni + ~200mg caffeine + 100mg pp is solid so far. No shiny doorknobs but I am going through some serious work with less hassle than I would otherwise see during ketosis induction.

Edit: damn I forgot that I took CILTEP today as well. Well, it all seems to work well together nonetheless.

Edited by alecnevsky, 09 April 2013 - 12:24 AM.

[MizTen]

I can't believe how great I feel from this.. I only wonder if this is somehow wrong and doing damage. Going to the gym greatly increased the euphoria. Whatever Sunifram is doing plus the endorphin boost from the gym makes me want to go around talking to everyone. Hopefully this keeps up... It seems the effects are getting better. The early morning dose hasn't been too great but once I got home from work and dosed it opened me up to a new world..

I fear taking too high of doses because I believe it will probably create some mania. Its working at 15-20 mg doses now anyway so why waste it and take more. Its more than likely just gonna cause damage to brain and wallet. Although by damage I don't mean anything extreme but mainly just cause a burnout or some memory problems..

A few people mentioned being burnt out and taking a break.. Could any of you explain a little more what happend if you have some time?

I am also a little worried about what stealth damage sunifiram might be doing to me, my brain especially. There has been a slight uptick in blood pressure and blood sugar. Those are two easy objective markers of physical impact (of just about anything you want to try on your body-brain). But nothing far out of the normal range for me if I have stress, exercise hard, am too inactive, or over-consume carbs.

Yeah, that blew me away too, how good I felt. Not quite like anything else, ever. Exercise does make it all that better.

Everyone I talked to during the "up phase" was very responsive and not weirded out by my sunny extroversion, nor did they notice anything that much out of the ordinary, but I am fairly extroverted anyway. Also, apparently, I made a phenomenal amount of sense (though maybe not on this thread ). I posted here mostly during that time when I figured that no one else would understand why I was so happy! I did check back with the people in my daily life on this. I also experienced significantly increased energy during physical exertion on a day when I had not taken sunifiram or anything else other than healthy food and my normal supplements.

Sunifiram does have some sort of "extended effect" for me. Even though the Sunny mood declined, I still had a lot of energy, and could work through my interactions with others more successfully on the days when I hadn't taken it. I am not implying that this is some sort of cure for mood disorders, and I have a lot of concerns for its safety with people who have mood disorders or other illnesses.

Although there was some mild mania at the very peak, (i.e. the Limitless effect) at about maybe 3-5 days from start, I was never out-of -bounds and I was always very self-aware. Sometimes in my normal everyday state I can be a little out-of-bounds in terms of irritability, anxiety, negativity, rumination, or novelty seeking (ADD )etc.

This may actually be a very good treatment for people with ADD/ADHD if they already have other effective coping mechanisms, such as mindfullness, CBT, or high level self-awareness. I would totally NOT recommend this for someone who doesn't have such coping strategies.

There was a point where driving worried me a bit, but that didn't last long. I was not unsafe, but I was unsure because I have never felt that way before. Well maybe I felt that way when I was a kid and thought the world was a pretty cool place, at least some of the time. My concern about driving safety was also one of the reasons to decrease dosage. Just in case...

I am having some occasional memory problems, but nothing worse than my baseline, for sure. On days when I don't take it, I still have increased strength and exercise tolerance, as well as a mindful self awareness that helps me think things through before I act or speak, but not in an anxious sense. I am also retaining the learnings that I gained from my thinking, activities, and interactions on the days when it was peaked.

Yeah, it's great, even when the euphoria passes, yeah, I am wondering what it's doing to me in the long term. It sounds like you have a good strategy for addressing some of these issues. Cycling off it is very wise, keeping dosage within normal ranges makes sense.

Edited by MizTen, 09 April 2013 - 01:26 AM.

[Introspecta]

Yeah I only ordered half a gram so I'll prob take a few weeks off once I run out. I eat super clean. Pretty much live off smoothies, bananas, apples, protein mix, and turkey. No fake sugar aside from the sweetner in the one scoop of Jacked I take a day.

I'm having some sleeping issues tonight for the first time but I just realized I got home late from work and dosed the Suni and Jacke3d then went to gym so its not surprising i'm still up at 1120. Hopefully I can get to bed by Midnight

[Adaptogen]

why do you take jacked? honestly i feel that (strong) preworkout stims are unnecessary and have a negative effect on routine/drive. i went through about 2 purchases of it a couple years back before deciding that the overstimulated workouts dependent on preworkout supplements are insensible

[ScienceGuy]

Has anyone here tried stacking SUNIFIRAM with COLURACETAM?

I hate being this guy but those dosages are ridiculously high. I weigh around 100kg and I usually take 5mg Methylphenidate, 10mg at most. Nobody is prescribed more than 90mg per day, and if you were to follow those rat studies, we would have to take 975mg, 5 days per week for 3 months. I am not even accounting for the rat->human conversion. It would be easily more than 1g.

I hate being that guy but you have no idea what you're talking about... you really think rat->human doses mg/kg are converted upward?

MPH rat doses are much greater due to differences in metabolism + adjustments for body surface area and therefore, are by no means representative of human equivalent doses. 2mg/kg is a threshold dose so 5-20mg/kg is high but reasonable oral dosage for a rat.

You might find this useful: How to convert dose from ANIMAL to HUMAN

Edited by ScienceGuy, 09 April 2013 - 07:18 AM.

[isochromalmao]

Well just to add some quick comments on effects.

5mg zero tolerance, awake 20 hours, ready to go to bed, felt like I took some kind of stimulant. Zero crash and fell asleep about 3 hours later but had taken hydroxyzine earlier, as my friend had just told me he had gotten the Sunifiram!!

Earlier, 5mg's right when I woke up didn't do enough to get me out of bed, I fell back asleep immediately. So I got up and took another 5mg's and just WOW! What a great stimulant/nootropic.

I feel like glutamate and acetylcholine are just very happy right now, although I'm pretty sure it's more like AMPA in the hippocampus right? Doesn't matter, very impressed with this.

I'm gonna try it with sulbutiamine and pramiracetam over the next few days. I take it sublingually, as there is very litte taste.

...Edit: My username, I know I know.... me and my friend were just amazed at his posts and I just realized he had that "reborn" account. Def no hate there

Edited by isochromalmao, 09 April 2013 - 07:33 AM.

[peakplasma]

Has anyone here tried stacking SUNIFIRAM with COLURACETAM?

I hate being this guy but those dosages are ridiculously high. I weigh around 100kg and I usually take 5mg Methylphenidate, 10mg at most. Nobody is prescribed more than 90mg per day, and if you were to follow those rat studies, we would have to take 975mg, 5 days per week for 3 months. I am not even accounting for the rat->human conversion. It would be easily more than 1g.

I hate being that guy but you have no idea what you're talking about... you really think rat->human doses mg/kg are converted upward?

MPH rat doses are much greater due to differences in metabolism + adjustments for body surface area and therefore, are by no means representative of human equivalent doses. 2mg/kg is a threshold dose so 5-20mg/kg is high but reasonable oral dosage for a rat.

You might find this useful: How to convert dose from ANIMAL to HUMAN

That's exactly what I said wasn't it? An adjustment for body surface area. But more accurate conversion should take into consideration in vivo differences in metabolism which is why the therapeutic range is set in human trials.

[Introspecta]

why do you take jacked? honestly i feel that (strong) preworkout stims are unnecessary and have a negative effect on routine/drive. i went through about 2 purchases of it a couple years back before deciding that the overstimulated workouts dependent on preworkout supplements are insensible

I would of agreed with you a year or two ago but after switching from working 2nd shift 3pm-12midnight to a first shift day schedule I got hooked on Energy drinks drinking 2-4 a day.. I finally got off those but later bought some jacked. I found that one scoop is not too stimulating and doesn't interuptt my life. Anything more usually creates more problems. I've actually been tapering off caffiene over a long period and have been somewhat stuck on one scoop a day. There are some days I don't take it though.. The goal is to switch to Yerba Mate tea and have days with no caffiene at all.

I remember my first trials with Pre workouts I was like how F does anyone work out on these things. My skin itched and I felt sick...

I'm yet to try the Suni+Coluracetam but I may just experiement with this right now. I dosed 30mg suni and will now dose 10mgs Coluracetam. Maybe it will add more to the Cognitive side of things. While I feel focused I'm more distracted from the super enhanced mood. I'm sure it will die off like others said though.

[ScienceGuy]

You might find this useful: How to convert dose from ANIMAL to HUMAN

That's exactly what I said wasn't it? An adjustment for body surface area. But more accurate conversion should take into consideration in vivo differences in metabolism which is why the therapeutic range is set in human trials.

Yes, it is... I was agreeing with you

The link provides the relevant information that allows the corresponding HUMAN dosage to be calculated from ANIMAL including RODENT; and is accurate enough for most purposes

Edited by ScienceGuy, 09 April 2013 - 10:13 AM.

[emckai]

Took 30-45mg of Sunifiram + 300mg of Choline Bitartrate at 8:00am and it's about 8:31am right now. I don't seem to be feeling any kind of euphoric effects or stimulation.

[Allethrin]

I can't believe how great I feel from this.. I only wonder if this is somehow wrong and doing damage. Going to the gym greatly increased the euphoria. Whatever Sunifram is doing plus the endorphin boost from the gym makes me want to go around talking to everyone. Hopefully this keeps up... It seems the effects are getting better. The early morning dose hasn't been too great but once I got home from work and dosed it opened me up to a new world..

I fear taking too high of doses because I believe it will probably create some mania. Its working at 15-20 mg doses now anyway so why waste it and take more. Its more than likely just gonna cause damage to brain and wallet. Although by damage I don't mean anything extreme but mainly just cause a burnout or some memory problems..

A few people mentioned being burnt out and taking a break.. Could any of you explain a little more what happend if you have some time?

This happened to me. Basically after 3-4 days the effects pooped out quite a bit. The mood boost/mild euphoria disappeared and the quality of nootropic effects diminished (although there was still significant benefit, just mixed with negatives). I began to experience:

- Short-term memory issues, spaciness
- `Social anhedonia' (the awkward robotic feeling that pramiracetam or combining too many noots at high doses gives)
- Mood/emotional flattening
- Mental fatigue - A strong desire to rest in silence and darkness and otherwise withdraw from stimulation hits me in the late afternoon/evening. A ~30-45 minute rest like this revives me somewhat
- Headaches. This is a pretty significant indicator for me because I rarely ever get headaches, so I know these are caused by the sunifiram. I tried to treat them by taking 250mg citicoline the first day they happened. This either did not work or was counterproductive.

Since then I have backed off the dosage somewhat, and have taken sunifiram only on alternating days.

Something I did perceive was that ALCAR at 1.5-3g/day helped to improve the sunifiram effect significantly for a day or two, then this pooped out as well.

Today I am experimenting with going back to the standard (10mg) morning dose of sunifiram, and supplementing with alpha-GPC to see if that treats the headaches and other issues. So far it seems to be working well and I am experiencing no negatives today.

I have never experienced the `choline deficit headaches' that seem to plague some racetam users in the past. Typically I supplement with choline sources and ALCAR only sporadically and in relatively low doses, because I seem to tend towards overcholination and choline sources can adversely affect my mood quite easily. Usually when I take racetams I do not supplement choline sources, or only cycle on/off ALCAR.

It may be that sunifiram is similar to racetams in that some people need supplemental choline or they will get headaches and brain fog. It may also be that hte ~250mg citicoline I took before was simply not enough to put a dent in these issues.

The alpha-GPC approach seems to be working so far, so I am hopeful. While I am still not up to the same mood boost as the first three days, I'd say I am back to approximately 30% of the mood benefit and 60% of the nootropic benefit of my original sunifiram experiences.

I have also taken IsoChroma's advice to heart about taking lots of fish oil (5-8g/day) and b-vitamins. I cannot tell how much that is helping.

In summary: Sunifiram may require high-powered choline donors (moreso than racetams) for some people, or will quickly lead to burnout/brain fog and headaches. This is still a working hypothesis.

Final note: I took 300mg alpha-GPC over the course of yesterday evening, and have taken about another ~200mg so far this morning, with plans to take more over the rest of the day. I am currently experiencing no acetylcholine blues, no sunifiram headaches, and no other sunifiram negatives, which is very different from yesterday's experience

[renfr]

Can fish oil be a substitute for choline?

[Allethrin]

Can fish oil be a substitute for choline?

I don't think so, although it's probably important to get a lot anyways to support a heavy nootropic load.

[emckai]

Can fish oil be a substitute for choline?

Not sure about that, but hard-boiled eggs are a good choline source.
The best substitute would be getting choline in powdered form. imo.

EDIT:
Right at 8:45 I started feeling a bit weird. Not sure if it was any type of euphoria. Not sure.

Edited by emckai, 09 April 2013 - 04:02 PM.

[golden1]

How do negative effects boil down to "needing more choline?"

[emckai]

How do negative effects boil down to "needing more choline?"

Choline is basically the fuel for noots.
If you experience any type of mental fatigue, headaches or brain fogginess, you should try to intake more Choline.

[ScienceGuy]

How do negative effects boil down to "needing more choline?"

Choline is basically the fuel for noots.
If you experience any type of mental fatigue, headaches or brain fogginess, you should try to intake more Choline.

Sorry, I have to agree with Golden1 and point out that this is an erroneous overgeneralization... CHOLINE is not in fact the universal 'fuel' for all NOOTROPICS

Also, without fully taking into account a chemical's precise mechanism(s) of action we are delving entirely into the realm of speculation and conjecture... whilst it is very possible that CHOLINE might be a useful substance to stack with SUNIFIRAM, at this point in time I am not aware of any substantiated scientific evidence that SUNIFIRAM depletes the body's CHOLINE levels in any regard and hence requires supplemental CHOLINE to be taken in combination with it... just sayin' one needs to be a little careful not to take 1 + 1 and make 12

Edited by ScienceGuy, 09 April 2013 - 04:36 PM.

[Allethrin]

Can fish oil be a substitute for choline?

Not sure about that, but hard-boiled eggs are a good choline source.
The best substitute would be getting choline in powdered form. imo.

EDIT:
Right at 8:45 I started feeling a bit weird. Not sure if it was any type of euphoria. Not sure.

I think the best choline source/substitute would actually be alpha-GPC. It is way more readily delivered across the blood-brain barrier and transformed into acetylcholine than simple choline salts, and IIRC it is actually the body's `preferred' endogenous acetylcholine precursor. Unlike many nootropics, it has also been shown to improve some functions of memory in healthy, young subjects.

alpha-GPC and CDP-choline (citicoline) are probably your two best bets as high-powered choline sources. They are much more potent and powerful than choline salts, but this is not a negative; you just need to titrate the dose. I think of alpha-GPC as the most powerful `pure/clean' acetylcholine precursor, while citicoline also has what feels like an additional mild dopaminergic stimulating effect (and also raises plasma uridine levels). They subjectively feel different, but are both excellent compounds (much better than choline bitartrate) if you are looking for a choline source.

I understand that they both have some benefits in supplying precursors for neural growth; citicoline does this by suppling uridine, while alpha-GPC somehow helps in another way, because it is commonly used in the popular uridine/omega-3 cocktail. I think citicoline also causes modest increases in dopamine receptor density in some areas of the brain, similar to uridine.

[Allethrin]

How do negative effects boil down to "needing more choline?"

Choline is basically the fuel for noots.
If you experience any type of mental fatigue, headaches or brain fogginess, you should try to intake more Choline.

Sorry, I have to agree with Golden1 and point out that this is an erroneous overgeneralization... CHOLINE is not in fact the universal 'fuel' for all NOOTROPICS

Also, without fully taking into account a chemical's precise mechanism(s) of action we are delving entirely into the realm of speculation and conjecture... just sayin' one needs to be a little careful not to take 1 + 1 and make 12

I'm with ScienceGuy here. I did not mean to recommend that others take choline with their sunifiram, I am only stating that I am experiencing problems with maintaining the quality of sunifiram's effect, and I want to keep this thread updated with my personal experimentation in trying to solve this issue, as well as my personal speculations and thoughts about this compound and how it might best be utilized.

I suspect that probably most of the time that people take a lot of acetylcholine precursors with their piracetam or other racetams, this is probably unnecessary. I as well as many others on this forum have found that racetams work perfectly fine without choline sources. I personally try to keep my choline supplementation to a minimum, if I take it at all, because I easily get negative side effects from too much acetylcholine.

For what it's worth, today I am noticing that alpha-GPC seems to bring back some of the sunifiram effect and nearly eliminates the headaches and brainfog. Also I am not experiencing a lowered mood from an amount of alpha-GPC that probably would have caused this for me in the past.

This is only one day's worth of data, however. Keep experimenting and see what works for you!

Edited by Allethrin, 09 April 2013 - 04:41 PM.

[csrpj]

I'm asking just to be safe: Is there any reason to believe sunifiram may interact with MAOIS (like low-dose caapi)?

[Allethrin]

I'm asking just to be safe: Is there any reason to believe sunifiram may interact with MAOIS (like low-dose caapi)?

From what I know about sunifiram, I wouldn't expect there to be a dangerous interaction. However this is NOT meant to be taken as a recommendation.

Regardless, it is important to always err on the safe side, and if you choose to do this, tread very carefully and slowly increase your dosage. Think: "What would Shulgin do?"

I have a feeling that sunifiram could potentially be very bad to combine with certain stimulating recreational drugs.

Just remember that sunifiram may significantly potentiate anything you take it with, and I speculate that it could facilitate `hard-wiring' (pathway formation via enhanced LTP) of thoughts and experiences related to any entheogenic or recreational drug you may take it with.

In the case of caapi, I can see how this could be a positive thing. I plan to experiment with low-dose harmalas myself later this evening, and I'll let you know if anything out of the ordinary arises.

[manic_racetam]

Maybe I'm sensitive to this stuff or else the cimetidine I'm taking is somehow interfering with normal metabolism. Have not enjoyed this substance so far. I took 3mg two days ago and it seemed to have a serious dampening effect on my mood.

So I took a Stablon pill later in the day and had a mild, yet acute panic attack. At first I was worried about my heart, as is usual with panic/anxiety. Then I hooked up my emWave2 and noticed a very smooth heart rate variance right around 80bpm. This calmed me down a lot and at least gave me a mental understanding that I was most likely not going to die, lol. That sounds like an exaggeration but that's exactly where my mind heads with panic.

Anyway, went to see a movie and felt better afterwards.

Upon waking the next day I felt like a million bucks. Haven't felt that good in a long time. This happened the last two times I took sunifiram actually. It seems to make me feel quite good the day after taking it. This makes me think if i continue taking this stuff I should use a liquid solution and try dramatically reduced dosages.

There were lots of factors and I doubt the anxiety was a direct effect of the sunifiram. Could have just been from not taking Stablon for so long and it being intensified by having cyp3a inhibited from the cimetidine. This mild anxious feeling caused by stablon + cimetidine probably found fuel for the fire with the understanding I'd also taken an untested compound earlier. Anyway, it didn't help my personal opinion of sunifiram.

[isochromalmao]

I think these doses you guys are taking are way too high, why not try it at 3mg in the morning with a booster only if insomnia can be dealt with. It's probably a burnout causing nootropic, like Noopept. You can't take too much for too long other wise you get bad to happen. Rat studies for mg/mcg per kg is not the same for humans, as was discussed earlier...

I've been playing with it but I haven't had enough experience to comment significantly yet.

[Isochroma]

Today [April 9, 2013] starting with the 1:30p dose I added 5g Piracetam to my Sunifiram regimen and adjusted Sunny from 55mg x 6/day down to 15mg x 6/day.

If the stack works better than Sunny alone then I will be buying on alternating months:

Month A: 10g Sunifiram [10,000mg / 60 days / 6 doses/day = 27mg/dose]
Month B: 2000g Piracetam [2000g / 60 days / 6 doses/day = 5g/dose]

Meanwhile as to my current Sunifiram-only regime: sleep is still dramatically reduced with nighly sleep averages of 4.5-5.5 hours where before Sunifiram is wat 8.5-9 hours.

Daytime sleepiness is gone, colours are just as sharp as starting.

However: Sunifiram lacks Piracetam's ability to fill my mind with business - it's dimmer in there.

Today I took a test dose with both Sunifiram and Piracetam and already notice the high-rate activity of Piracetam returning.

It looks like the two will dance well together - maybe even perfectly.

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 10 April 2013 - 12:02 AM.

[Isochroma]

New Sunifiram thread detected!

It was just posted yesterday on the BrainMeta Forum: Sunifiram Discussion and Experiences

So I posted a backlink to that lonely thread to this one so he knows that this forum is where the main discussion is taking place.

[Introspecta]

I can imagine Piracetam combining nice with Sunifiram. I'm going to have to order some tomorrow. I noticed today that most of the serious Euphoric effects I get are only when I combine with Jacked which contains caffiene and 1,3 dimeth. Without the added stim there is still a boosted mood. I feel pretty sharp but havn't been getting as much sleep and while i'm not tired during the day I can sense that my body needs some extra sleep. Its tough when you start work at 6am.

This is a very interesting chemical and so far its having dramatic effects on my energy and outlook towards life. Super motivated to get things done and plan for healthy activities in the future. I wonder if the anti anxiety properties go away. Anyone notice anti anxiety effects diminishing? I don't need to be super drug happy but some help with social anxiety goes a Long way with me. I'm not as shy as I was when younger but it still prevents me from opportunities with friends and In the work place.

This seems like a chemical that could def be used for anti-depression and anxiety although Its still early to tell how effective it will remain.

I will most likely be dropping my dose back down to 10mg 3x a day to see if it still works the same. I've been averaging around 15-20mg 3-4 times a day. I did notice a headache late afternoon that was cleared up no problem with Ibprofen but I don' t want to make that a habit. I really don't believe in Choline removing headaches. Its always made everything worse for me. Choline is already being stimulated as is why would you add more to the mix. Is there anything that shows that choline is being burnt up. I just don't understand why people always go to this idea but apparently it works for some but I believe there is some placebo effect especially when removing headache. Headaches can be removed by Placebo. I course I don't know though just a theory.

Isochroma did you get strung out at all from the high dosing you were doing?

[Isochroma]

As you say, supplemental Choline causes more problems than it fixes.

I have read all the posts - thousands - on this forum and others and from all that data I conclude:

1. Most people don't need Choline stacked with a racetam
2. A lot of people start both together and wonder why they're getting depressed/fogged - both signs of excess Choline.
3. I get all the Choline I need from: daily meat (fish at the moment) 213g + 300mg Choline Bitartrate that is included in my generic B-Complex 100mg formula. It's a trivial amount and most if not all B-Complex formulations contain it.
4. When I first started Piracetam, for the first three days there was a tiny headache (I never get them otherwise) but it went away and never came back. I've been high-dosing Piracetam since then with the current regime at 6x5g/day.

Others may need supplemental Choline but please try Sunifiram (or whatever other racetam you're testing) alone first for at least a week to ascertain its effects, then start adding Choline. I only tried Sunifiram alone for three days but it's enough for my testing and so far the Piracetam stacked with it is working predictably.

This PIR+Sunny stack is to determine if the remaining brain fatigue was caused/mostly by the Piracetam alone, or whether it causes the brain to overrun the extra metabolic energy it frees up (at least in my case) by improvement of mitochondrial function.

Piracetam is a close energy equation in that regard: it's the weakest racetamic mitochondrial enhancer yet it places the strongest demand on the brain to move fast forward. No other racetam in existence so increases spontaneous electrical activity in the brain.

[isochromalmao]

New Sunifiram thread detected!

It was just posted yesterday on the BrainMeta Forum: Sunifiram Discussion and Experiences

So I posted a backlink to that lonely thread to this one so he knows that this forum is where the main discussion is taking place.

I am that guy :D!!! Just wanted to see how brainmeta is I never really went over there...

[Isochroma]

Good to know.

I'm hoping that most discussion can be kept consolidated here - though there are already two threads on Sunifiram within this forum (alternate: Sunifiram - Supplements - LONGECITY).

Have also asked a mod to merge this thread with the one linked above.

When you post about Sunifiram on another forum it would be great if you could link back to this thread since it's the central gathering-place.

Also, many threads from BrainMeta already insta-redirect to this forum: this forum is actually BrainMeta's successor and it's deprecated.

Many threads were just moved over in their entirety from that forum.

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 10 April 2013 - 04:27 AM.