1565 replies to this topic

[ScienceGuy]

...supplemental Choline causes more problems than it fixes.

I have read all the posts - thousands - on this forum and others and from all that data I conclude:

1. Most people don't need Choline stacked with a racetam
2. A lot of people start both together and wonder why they're getting depressed/fogged - both signs of excess Choline.
3. I get all the Choline I need from: daily meat (fish at the moment) 213g + 300mg Choline Bitartrate that is included in my generic B-Complex 100mg formula. It's a trivial amount and most if not all B-Complex formulations contain it.
4. When I first started Piracetam, for the first three days there was a tiny headache (I never get them otherwise) but it went away and never came back. I've been high-dosing Piracetam since then with the current regime at 6x5g/day.

Others may need supplemental Choline but please try Sunifiram (or whatever other racetam you're testing) alone first for at least a week to ascertain its effects, then start adding Choline...

+1 what he said

IMO everyone should most certainly pay attention to what this fine gentleman says about supplemental CHOLINE

Edited by ScienceGuy, 10 April 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[renfr]

Does anyone use this scale? Because I keep adding up Sunifiram powder and it only starts showing at 11mg but I wonder if it's really 11mg, there's really a lot of powder... Is Sunifiram poorly dense?
I didn't want to take risks so I took maybe 1/4 of all the 11mg which may account for almost nothing, 30 mins later no special effect.

[Allethrin]

Does anyone use this scale? Because I keep adding up Sunifiram powder and it only starts showing at 11mg but I wonder if it's really 11mg, there's really a lot of powder... Is Sunifiram poorly dense?
I didn't want to take risks so I took maybe 1/4 of all the 11mg which may account for almost nothing, 30 mins later no special effect.

Use this trick when weighing with milligram scales:

Sometimes scales have a certain `minimum' weight that they will register above zero; so the scale will read zero while you add powder until the scale suddenly jumps up to reading out some weight.

To get around this problem, use a small piece of weigh paper but do NOT tare the scale, so that the scale reads more like 70-100 mg. Then place powder on top of the paper, until the weigh goes up by the desired number of milligrams.

This way makes it much easier to accurately weigh small amounts (< 10 mg) with a milligram scale, because only 2 or 3 milligrams will clearly register.

[golden1]

5grams sunifiram was delivered today(2 days earlier than the projected date o_O. go usps!)

Took ~35mg. After 10minutes I felt an aniracetam-like warmth/comfort all over my brain... not really unlike amphetamine.. At 25 minutes in I notice a motivational euphoria and extremely positive outlook on things plus a reduction in any perceived social or general anxiety... once again similar to amphetamine coming on(specifically 4-fluoroamphetamine which is virtually so smooth it has zero noticeable side effects.)
All of a sudden, almost like when I smoke weed outside, I heard all the noise that my brain was filtering out. What I percieved as nothing before due to it not being important now is filled with the sounds of all the different birds chirping out my window. The general feel reminds me of aniracetam crossed with a low amount of 4-fluoroamphetamine(which is probably around 35mg of 4-FA oddly ...hahah). I listen to music a lot with a pretty expensive headphone set up and listening to music on this is so wonderful. I have yet to notice much visually, but I will check that outside... actually it seems like every individual word stands out more looking at what I wrote, kind of like what psychedelics will do. So far I'm really impressed, also has no negative effect on my benzo tapering(doesn't aggravate it like amphetamine does), If anything it fixes my motivation and makes me calmer...

[dogshitwebsite]

Does anyone use this scale? Because I keep adding up Sunifiram powder and it only starts showing at 11mg but I wonder if it's really 11mg, there's really a lot of powder... Is Sunifiram poorly dense?
I didn't want to take risks so I took maybe 1/4 of all the 11mg which may account for almost nothing, 30 mins later no special effect.

I have exactly that scale, the 0.001 accurate version, its quite crappy but I guess thats what could be expected for the price, mine shows the real weight and then starts slowly climbing up. Remving the lid made it more accurate, with the lid it had the mind of its own.

[golden1]

Alright I checked out the outdoors, slowly the visual enhancement got better and better... and indeed even now that I'm inside oh the colors are so rich, and the shadows and highlights are GREATLY enhanced. Outside I noticed everything was.. actually (again) like 4-fluoroamphetamine visually(everything looks bright and happy.. things pop out at you much more and are more interesting and detailed, hard to describe). Then it started getting even more enhanced as I sat down and relaxed, to the point that my vision was VERY altered, but in an enjoyable and true to reality manner. Sorry, but just to say ahead of time, I won't really have much to report on tasks like memory challenges or other things since really the importance of nootropics to me are to enhance my life and my life is very creativity centered. Oh this surpasses coluracetam's visual effects by far at this dose(and I also tried high doses of coluracetam). I would say the positive vibe from it is similar to coluracetam though.


edit: wow. wow. music.... is so deep, 3d, detailed, and emotional. this is might be better music enhancement than psychedelics.

also a note: I respond very well to piracetam and aniracetam(I can feel most nootropics as well), so my experiences might be more on the extreme effect side... just a disclaimer, don't read this and think it will necessarily apply to you(I've had people call me a shill and such because I posted so positively about aniracetam before, so I'm just throwing that out there).

just one more edit to emphasize: This is by far the most amazing music enhancing drug ever. And I'm including recreational drugs... it's better than LSD in terms of detail and perfectness which is saying something...

Edited by golden1, 10 April 2013 - 04:09 PM.

[megatron]

I also have the same scale. Listen to Allethrin's advice, it's a smart little trick

[chung_pao]

I can't believe how great I feel from this.. I only wonder if this is somehow wrong and doing damage. Going to the gym greatly increased the euphoria. Whatever Sunifram is doing plus the endorphin boost from the gym makes me want to go around talking to everyone. Hopefully this keeps up... It seems the effects are getting better. The early morning dose hasn't been too great but once I got home from work and dosed it opened me up to a new world..

I fear taking too high of doses because I believe it will probably create some mania. Its working at 15-20 mg doses now anyway so why waste it and take more. Its more than likely just gonna cause damage to brain and wallet. Although by damage I don't mean anything extreme but mainly just cause a burnout or some memory problems..

A few people mentioned being burnt out and taking a break.. Could any of you explain a little more what happend if you have some time?

My experience of a burn out is that my whole energy production and receptor sensitivity becomes downregulated as a consequence of stimulating the body too much with exogenous substances. The body adapts to the presence of different nootropics and downregulate neurotransmitter production and receptor sensitivity, among other things, to achieve homeostasis.
What follows when the substances are removed is simply withdrawal symptoms.
That's my experience of a burn out; waking up feeling shit until all my nootropics kicks-in and I'm back to "baseline".
Either that, or just going too fast for the body to recover. Recovery is needed from any activity. Without recovery, any overstressed function of the body will slowly deteriorate and break down.

Love the sunifiram though! Unlike the previous racetams, this one is definitely a strong ampakine.
Can't wait to try combining it with modafinil to achieve the hypothesized "NZT"-effect Ischroma was raving about.
But I'll save that for when I have something important to do, otherwise I'll just feel like a junkie lol.

Edited by chung_pao, 10 April 2013 - 06:03 PM.

[FrizzRamble]

Through my scouring across the net, I came across this:

...One substance did produce a totally serendipitous effect on me. It reduced my sleep requirement from seven or eight hours to four hours, with no detectable side effects. I woke fully refreshed and literally could not sleep any longer. I SPECULATE, and I emphasize SPECULATE, that it altered my acetylcholine level. What is it? Hah! I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid. Maybe someday you'll get lucky and be approached by The Friendly Stranger...

This was taken from http://www.erowid.or...u4euh.notes.txt. This is pure speculation on my part, but I think that the author took Sunifiram. This was written circa 1987-1988~. When was Sunifiram first discovered/synthed?

[abelard lindsay]

Love the sunifiram though! Unlike the previous racetams, this one is definitely a strong ampakine.
Can't wait to try combining it with modafinil to achieve the hypothesized "NZT"-effect Ischroma was raving about.
But I'll save that for when I have something important to do, otherwise I'll just feel like a junkie lol.

Try Zembrin/CILTEP + Sunifram. It is really amazing. I took that combo and completely shredded through a Coursera algorithms homework assignment that was supposed to take a week in less than 4 hours.

[owtsgmi]

Wow... this is a great thread. I've spent the last few hours catching up amid various distractions. It would be great to get a summary first post, a la the CILTEP thread by Sir Lindsay, to save others from having to pick through the posts to get all the good details. I think I am going to order some Sunifram to go with my CILTEP, piracetam, uridine stack. Zembrin is already on its way too. Getting hard to keep up! Iso - keep up the good work!

[golden1]

Took 120mg of sunifiram just out of curiousity. Not much more powerful than the 35mg dose, but.. it seems to last much longer. I also noticed how coluracetam made people sleepy including me a couple times, this same sleepiness happened after the large dose of sunifiram... a very calm relaxed sleep, but I woke up just as tired(edit: wrong... just had to wait a little to fully wake up. Now I'm wide awake at 4am).. I did however have a very very long and detailed dream, just like aniracetam does for me. Benzos typically made my dreams either really foggy or nonexistant, but tonight I had one one the clearest dreams in a long time. The lingering effects actually feel a lot like coluracetam, and of course aniracetam. I believe the effects only become reminiscent of amphetamine for me if I'm outside doing something(I had took the 35mg right after a bike ride to the postoffice, just a possible explanation..really applies to almost all drugs.. the more you're actively doing the more you notice their full effects) .

Edited by golden1, 11 April 2013 - 07:55 AM.

[norepinephrine]

FrizzRamble - it would be likely the author was referring to piracetam. Interesting read, though - the user comments he reports a few paragraphs prior to your quited text involving "subtle effects" and a need to take something for months on end ring just as true today as then.

[renfr]

Does anyone use this scale? Because I keep adding up Sunifiram powder and it only starts showing at 11mg but I wonder if it's really 11mg, there's really a lot of powder... Is Sunifiram poorly dense?
I didn't want to take risks so I took maybe 1/4 of all the 11mg which may account for almost nothing, 30 mins later no special effect.

Use this trick when weighing with milligram scales:

Sometimes scales have a certain `minimum' weight that they will register above zero; so the scale will read zero while you add powder until the scale suddenly jumps up to reading out some weight.

To get around this problem, use a small piece of weigh paper but do NOT tare the scale, so that the scale reads more like 70-100 mg. Then place powder on top of the paper, until the weigh goes up by the desired number of milligrams.

This way makes it much easier to accurately weigh small amounts (< 10 mg) with a milligram scale, because only 2 or 3 milligrams will clearly register.

Thanks for the tip, should have thought about it!

I took 14mg Sunifiram this morning, I didn't notice anything in particular, maybe increased colour saturation? But that may very well be a placebo effect and the influence I had on others saying it made their vision better...
I will try to double the dose saturday and see what happens.

I would like to hear from Isochroma and other long term users, if he still manages to sleep 5h a day with the same dose or if tolerance builds up overtime...

[Artificiality]

FrizzRamble - it would be likely the author was referring to piracetam. Interesting read, though - the user comments he reports a few paragraphs prior to your quited text involving "subtle effects" and a need to take something for months on end ring just as true today as then.

I do believe that part was referring to piracetam, however he referred to many different nootropics, and did not seem to be praising it; while he did seem to praise the unnamed substance that Frizz was referring to.


"My experiences with most of the "wonderful" substances described in the article have been disappointing. And I'm not the only one. The "lines" are: "the effects are subtle"; "You have to take it for months," and then when you still don't notice any effect, "Well, you must be one of those people who get no benefit from it."

This,as norepinephrine mentioned does sound a lot like Piracetam, which I'm fairly sure was around back then.

What Frizz was referring to was the following

"One substance did produce a totally serendipitous effect on me. It.
reduced my sleep requirement from seven or eight hours to four hours, with
no detectable side effects. I woke fully refreshed and literally could not
sleep any longer. I SPECULATE, and I emphasize SPECULATE, that it altered
my acetylcholine level. What is it? Hah! I may be crazy, but I'm not
stupid. Maybe someday you'll get lucky anld be approached by The Friendly
Stranger."

From the reports in this thread,Isochroma's in particular, it does sound somewhat similar to Sunifiram. What makes me have some doubt is that he only mentions less sleep as a benefit. I don't feel as if he would have left out the other cognitive benefits, had there been any.

OT: I'll be receiving 10 grams of this in the mail either tomorrow or Friday, pretty excited. I will only be taking small amounts occasionally, but I'll update here as soon as I try it!

Edited by Artificiality, 11 April 2013 - 09:43 AM.

[renfr]

Took 14mg this morning - nothing in particular
Took 35mg some hours ago - nothing
Took 25mg with a glass of milk 1 hour after the 35mg intake - nothing yet
It doesn't seem to be working on me.
Maybe it's sulbutiamine inhibiting the effects since I knocked down some caps in the afternoon..

[SynergyStudent]

mait: Indeed, Noopept increases the frequency of pulses [how often a pulse occurs within a given period of time] within a pulse train in such cells and increases their depth but has very little if any effect on their length.

Sunifiram decreases the frequency of each pulse (the pulse is 'stretched out' or slower). That's a different measure than how many pulses per second.

What I should have called it in the previous post is Pulse Aspect Ratio [PAR] - the width [time] divided by the amplitude [height] of a given individual pulse or an average of more than one.

From Novel nootropic dipeptide Noopept increases inhibitory synaptic transmission in CA1 pyramidal cells [Full PDF]:

Are you saying noopept and Sunifiram counter each other? Or is there potential for synergy between them? Forgive me for my ignorance on this I just want to be sure I fully understand. thank you in advance.

Edited by SynergyStudent, 11 April 2013 - 05:07 PM.

[kenj]

Took 14mg this morning - nothing in particular
Took 35mg some hours ago - nothing
Took 25mg with a glass of milk 1 hour after the 35mg intake - nothing yet
It doesn't seem to be working on me.
Maybe it's sulbutiamine inhibiting the effects since I knocked down some caps in the afternoon..

I've tried 2x25mg of Sunifiram, and didn't notice anything either, except it might've had a relaxing effect (took after a long days work), but I'm not sure at all.

No definite effects at least like some in this thread seem to have experienced, but I'll try more doses of course, - I suspect to feel this one you need to be highly mentally and physically active. I WAS testing it with some light mental work, but it doesn't seem to have "triggered" the Sunifiram (yet).

[Nattzor]

Are you saying noopept and Sunifiram counter each other? Or is there potential for synergy between them? Forgive me for my ignorance on this I just want to be sure I fully understand. thank you in advance.

From what I understod, synergy. Noopept would mean more pulses/minute and deeper pulses. Sunifiram would make the pulses longer. Adding both would be more frequent pulses, deeper pulses and longer pulses.

That being said, no idea what a pulse actually mean.

[zeropoint]

Took 14mg this morning - nothing in particular
Took 35mg some hours ago - nothing
Took 25mg with a glass of milk 1 hour after the 35mg intake - nothing yet
It doesn't seem to be working on me.
Maybe it's sulbutiamine inhibiting the effects since I knocked down some caps in the afternoon..

Well this ain't good, being that people reort effects off of 5mg. doses....

Was it maybe stored bad, had sun exposure?

Maybe try taking coffee(caffiene) with it as some people described it as a caffiene amplifier...

Edited by zeropoint, 11 April 2013 - 06:20 PM.

[renfr]

Nope, NSN sunifiram is sent in brown vials and I didn't expose it to light at all.
I don't think they bought more than one batch, we probably all have the same batch.
Though I didn't feel anything special, I felt extremely tired in the afternoon and had to rest a little but I'm not sure if this is related since I slept 30mins less than normally and felt a bit tired first.
Whatever we shall see what happens this night, if I manage to wake up naturally 5h after with no tiredness.


Caffeine is out of question for me since I'm very sensitive, I will be unable to discern whether sunifiram acts or not.
Besides that guy who went to the ER took more than 5 grams of caffeine, that's an insane amount when you know that 2g is enough to cause death.

[golden1]

Activity, particularly physical activity and mental interest seem to greatly intensify the perceived effects. Also, 35mg made music incredibly spatially 3d and detailed, but it might be partly because of my audio set up that I have the extra details to hear. I can feel it sitting here at the computer, the calming/aniracetam-like feeling is pretty obvious, but I suppose I know what I'm looking for. Also it's probably undoing the sensory inhibition from the clonazepam I have to take daily.

Possibly since it's an ampa modulator you therefore feel it more when the ampa receptors are busy, which possibly physical activity(something as simple as walking through nature and taking everything in should be enough "activity" ime) triggers, I don't know.


edit: I found this very interesting, pretty much describes what sunifiram is enhancing and how it applies to LTP. http://www.sumanasin.../receptors.html

Edited by golden1, 11 April 2013 - 07:23 PM.

[alecnevsky]

~30mg + 100mg pp + ciltep + 1g potassium is definitely something on 45 min of sleep. Prettttay good. In particular, the mood effects reminiscent of Aniracetam and very speedy retrieval! Not even sure where this information was coming from. In all, very good [academic] performance in completely sleep-deprived condition.

[peakplasma]

Just a quick survey...

Are you all using higher doses >25mg-100mg because you find them substantially more effective?

Or are the higher doses just easier to measure than carefully measuring out specific 3mg, 6mg, or 10 mg doses?

Edited by peakplasma, 11 April 2013 - 09:58 PM.

[golden1]

^^^easier to measure with cheap scales, and enjoying the effects of ~30mg too much to try lower amounts at the moment. I will say that 120mg is not significantly different than 30mg for me.

[peakplasma]

Well, let me just say that I meticulously measure my doses and that 8mg is perfect for me.

[golden1]

good to know~ no way my scale will go that low accurately(it's 4 years old, the more accurately I try to weigh things the more it changes its mind.. hahah). I will try 5-10mg by dividing a higher dose, and I'd recommend other people start low obviously. I'm just careless and I'm willing to admit that much for sure hahah.

[peakplasma]

I'm not just starting... this is Day 10. I started safe at around 2-3mg and ramped up to 8mg in the first couple days.

For my early doses I dissolved 100mg in 25 mL in cold water and added to a glass of water with an eye dropper.

I haven't experienced any tolerance yet! I'm just wondering if anyone else has been using low doses with success? Also, is anyone else experiencing a dry mouth?

Edited by peakplasma, 11 April 2013 - 10:52 PM.

[golden1]

oh no I didn't mean you, I read through most of the thread so yeah. props to you doing it the smart way from the start. anyway I want to say I notice a dry mouth to some extent... hard to say though since I'm pretty sure I have a slight cold as well. I'd be interested in other people having success w/ low(well..really..normal) doses too.

[renfr]

Activity, particularly physical activity and mental interest seem to greatly intensify the perceived effects. Also, 35mg made music incredibly spatially 3d and detailed, but it might be partly because of my audio set up that I have the extra details to hear. I can feel it sitting here at the computer, the calming/aniracetam-like feeling is pretty obvious, but I suppose I know what I'm looking for. Also it's probably undoing the sensory inhibition from the clonazepam I have to take daily.

Possibly since it's an ampa modulator you therefore feel it more when the ampa receptors are busy, which possibly physical activity(something as simple as walking through nature and taking everything in should be enough "activity" ime) triggers, I don't know.


edit: I found this very interesting, pretty much describes what sunifiram is enhancing and how it applies to LTP. http://www.sumanasin.../receptors.html

So according to this we should supplement calcium to facilitate AMPA receptor creation!