1565 replies to this topic

[Adaptogen]

How have you been dosing MizTen?

[MizTen]

How have you been dosing MizTen?

What worked best was two doses about 2-3 hours apart. First dose of 8-16mg before 9am, then second dose about 6-12mg before 1pm.

I'm still working out the interactions with other things like exercise, food, supplements, and activities. Other noots with Sunifiram are also unclear, though Piracetam and sulbutiamine did seem to enhance the Sunifiram.

[OpaqueMind]

I just received my sunifiram from NSN and I see on the bottle that piperizine is within the molecular name! To those knowledgeable in chemistry, does it have a piperizine structure? This could explain the reports of stimulation, burnout and insomnia. I'm a little hesitant to take it now... Hopefully someone can clear this up for me.

[Rethar]

Day 3/4 on Sunifiram:

For day 3, had a nightmare at night which is somewhat rare for me these days. I woke up after 7 hours of sleep spontaneously and couldn't get back to sleep. I also felt a bit sleep deprived, but not as exhausted as the previous day. So it seemed like it didn't even matter if I only took sunifiram in the morning and not later in the day, my sleep was still affected regardless. I took my first dose of 10-20mg early and waited an hour after to take 100mg choline bitartrate. Didn't feel depressed this time in the lag between taking the sunifiram and an hour later when its effects are fully felt. However, I'm pretty sure there was still some noopept in my system from the previous day because from about 1 hour after the dose, until like 5 more hours after that I kept getting that feeling that my brain felt too "busy" and I was also irritable like I was the previous day after taking the noopept after sunifiram. Also, the thermogenesis was insane. I felt like it was summer and my airconditioner was broken. So it took until 6 hours after the dose to feel the normal positive effects from sunifiram without all those negatives just mentioned. This lasted for about 4 hours, then it went into this next phase of effects where everything felt much less (less euphoria, but still had more confidence and more positive outlook). It again took 11 hours after the first dose for the stimulant effect to wear off and my body felt this relief at being able to rest.

I decided that it'd be a good idea to take smaller doses since that "overload" feeling in the morning wasn't great (wasn't sure at the time if it was too much sunifiram or just noopept still in my system).

In the evening and then at night I took a half-scoop using the redmicrospoon so I'm guessing 5-10mg? sunifiram. Wish I had a better way to measure these small amounts. Effects were pretty good, still had a positive attitude but I think sunifiram has drained me of whatever it uses to produce that strong euphoria feeling. I'm thinking that to get the feeling back I'd need to do alternate day dosing or something because as I'm taking this I'm feeling drained of something... as the days go by, it's like a combination of being tired from not getting proper sleep and drained of some kind of emotional excitement, since on sunifiram the emotional interest in stimuli seems to be amplified like all the time and then wears out (maybe some brain chemical gets depleted, total guess). Though I also notice that if I take a break from "stimulation" (talking to people, studying, TV...) for long enough I get somewhat recharged and I get higher emotional interest in things. Hard to explain.

Day 4:

Had another nightmare during the night, was weird. After waking up I felt really sleepy despite getting what seemed like a normal amount of hours of sleep. Took 5-10mg of sunifiram and 50mg choline bitartrate. Oh I should mention that today and yesterday between the time I took the sunifiram and the onset of effects (30mins-1hr later) I felt an increase of anxiety, kind of odd. So an hour later (sunifiram totally in my system) I felt awake again but slightly tired. I had none of the previous day's issues of irritability, or brain feeling too busy so I'm thinking the noopept had something to do with that. Had some thermogenesis but didn't bother me too much. Pretty productive day, not as good as the first day on sunifiram, but way above baseline. Took another 5-10mg about 6 hours later when I felt the effects wearing off.

Overall I'm liking the mood benefit this gives me. I'm not getting the strong euphoria before as I feel somewhat emotionally drained but I do feel more positive and depression isn't hitting me much (it usually would). I'm thinking I'll keep taking this a few times a day up until Friday, then take the weekend off and see what things are like restarting the dosing on Monday.

[Isochroma]

Sunifiram is not related to the piperazine stimulants - which are strong and also have very long half-lives.

Sunifiram is a nootropic and has no affinity for central receptors - including the ones that stimulants effect.

Sunifiram also does not produce burn-out but it's possible for a person who is careless to abuse or mistakenly be affected by the reduced sleep requirement.

[Deeviant]

Sunifiram is not related to the piperazine stimulants - which are strong and also have very long half-lives.

Sunifiram is a nootropic and has no affinity for central receptors - including the ones that stimulants effect.

Sunifiram also does not produce burn-out but it's possible for a person who is careless to abuse or mistakenly be affected by the reduced sleep requirement.

*citation needed.

[Southern_Lights]

I just received my sunifiram from NSN and I see on the bottle that piperizine is within the molecular name! To those knowledgeable in chemistry, does it have a piperizine structure? This could explain the reports of stimulation, burnout and insomnia. I'm a little hesitant to take it now... Hopefully someone can clear this up for me.

I noticed this instantly, and it definitely led me to be hesitant (still have only taken it once). I do not know the chemical structure, but in all honesty the stimulation and euphoria effects DO sound a lot like piperazine, or low dose mdma. This could also relate to the musical enhancement another use experienced. Again I am not well-versed in chemistry so I really don't know if this structure plays a role, but sunifiram has certainly had a COMPLETELY different effects profile that what I had expected from an AMPAKINE. My understandings are only weak at best, but it really doesn't seem like it is potentiating learning.

[Isochroma]

Design, synthesis and nootropic activity of new analogues of sunifiram and sapunifiram, two potent cognition-enhancers

"In fact, unifiram and sunifiram did not show any affinity towards the most important central receptors or transporters.¹²"

DM235 (sunifiram) - a novel nootropic with potential as a cognitive enhancer

"The members of this class show very low toxicity, have no sedative or stimulatory effects and lack the serious side effects of psychostimulants."

[golden1]

Not for me, it's exactly like aniracetam if it had a higher cap on it's effects. there is nothing piperazine about the effects.. at all.
Tons of drugs share structure skeletons, it doesn't mean they work in the same way.

Even the fast-paced, sometimes "nightmare"ish dreams are exactly the same as what I got from aniracetam, although I don't consider them night mares they are quite fun despite being scary.

NSI-whatever has the piperazine structure in it too. not really a big deal.
SEE the HUGE list @: http://en.wikipedia....atives_as_drugs



edit: should be noted though that I suppose it could metabolize to Benzylpiperazine in some amount, since other similar drugs listed on that page do. If it does I don't really feel any of the negatives of BZP... so it would be pretty curious if it did and of course tons of drugs produce effects thaat you could connect to BZP a notable example being caffeine.

Of course I'm not ruling it out, I already decided I was going to use it on an as needed basis, but the above is my view on it.

Edited by golden1, 18 April 2013 - 11:02 PM.

[Deeviant]

Design, synthesis and nootropic activity of new analogues of sunifiram and sapunifiram, two potent cognition-enhancers

"In fact, unifiram and sunifiram did not show any affinity towards the most important central receptors or transporters.¹²"

DM235 (sunifiram) - a novel nootropic with potential as a cognitive enhancer

"The members of this class show very low toxicity, have no sedative or stimulatory effects and lack the serious side effects of psychostimulants."

Must appreciated. I think when we're talking about substances in the context of turning ourselves into human guinea pigs, statements of fact regarding such substances should be accompanied with sufficient supporting evidence.

Edited by Deeviant, 18 April 2013 - 10:53 PM.

[renfr]

Not for me, it's exactly like aniracetam if it had a higher cap on it's effects. there is nothing piperazine about the effects.. at all.
Tons of drugs share structure skeletons, it doesn't mean they work in the same way.

Even the fast-paced, sometimes "nightmare"ish dreams are exactly the same as what I got from aniracetam, although I don't consider them night mares they are quite fun despite being scary.

NSI-whatever has the piperazine structure in it too. not really a big deal.
SEE the HUGE list @: http://en.wikipedia....atives_as_drugs

Hum you also got the nightmares?
I wish I found them funny because these I had with sunifiram are freaking scary!
Melatonin also causes you having nightmares (one rare time I had a dream) but they were less terrible.
But when I was taking melatonin and B6 which increase dream recall I managed to find a way to have good dreams and not scary nightmares :
- avoid hypoglycemia
- sleep in a proper position (sleep exactly the same way a dog sleeps, only your lateral body parts must touch the bed, don't just lie with the head on the pillow or towards the roof)
- avoid anything that can cause respiration issues during sleep, sleep apnea can cause nightmares

[golden1]

Not for me, it's exactly like aniracetam if it had a higher cap on it's effects. there is nothing piperazine about the effects.. at all.
Tons of drugs share structure skeletons, it doesn't mean they work in the same way.

Even the fast-paced, sometimes "nightmare"ish dreams are exactly the same as what I got from aniracetam, although I don't consider them night mares they are quite fun despite being scary.

NSI-whatever has the piperazine structure in it too. not really a big deal.
SEE the HUGE list @: http://en.wikipedia....atives_as_drugs

Hum you also got the nightmares?
I wish I found them funny because these I had with sunifiram are freaking scary!
Melatonin also causes you having nightmares (one rare time I had a dream) but they were less terrible.
But when I was taking melatonin and B6 which increase dream recall I managed to find a way to have good dreams and not scary nightmares :
- avoid hypoglycemia
- sleep in a proper position (sleep exactly the same way a dog sleeps, only your lateral body parts must touch the bed, don't just lie with the head on the pillow or towards the roof)
- avoid anything that can cause respiration issues during sleep, sleep apnea can cause nightmares

I had one actually that was just plain scary, but I dont remember it very well. The rest consist of either really realistic dreams or nightmares....but it's like I'm not able to be scared so I just end up going with it and enjoying the realism and good parts of the dream. Also I noticed if I want to increase my chances for dreaming, especially remembering the dream, I sleep on my back...and the odds are so much higher(I think because your mind must still know what configuration your body is in when youre asleep and if you're laying on your back its similar to standing which could, at least in my theory, provide the basis for starting a dream) so I can agree that if you want to avoid them don't sleep on your back,

[Southern_Lights]

"The members of this class show very low toxicity, have no sedative or stimulatory effects and lack the serious side effects of psychostimulants."

While this is stated in the papers, it goes against the fact that almost EVERY anecdotal account includes a feeling of stimulation in some form or another.

There must be difference between rats and humans, even if only small differences.

Also, is anyone experiencing an improvement in learning / retaining information, or even just general cognition? That is after all what we were looking for with this substance right? At least in my viewing of this thread I haven't seen anything that would make this substance a better substitute for ones that we already have (Racetams, Noopept, Traditional Stimulants).

Please correct me if I am wrong, just my observations.

[peakplasma]

Yes, Sunifiram has a piperazine ring in place of the usual 2-pyrrolidinone ring found in Racetams.

Almost every study on Sunifiram discusses this and makes note of the interesting structure; nevertheless, all of the studies also suggest an absence of stimulant effects.

Many drugs such as Viagra, Levitra, Olanzapine (anti-psychotic), Hydroxyzine (anti-histamine) and even nootropics like Fipexide have piperazine rings it doesn't mean they are BZP!

[timtam777]

I'm a racetam non-responder, but have some suni on order to try.

Can anyone comment on the effects on libido? Racetams flatlined my libido, which is already low.

Hoping for positive effect!

[Dissolvedissolve]

While this is stated in the papers, it goes against the fact that almost EVERY anecdotal account includes a feeling of stimulation in some form or another.

Just because it is not a stimulant in the traditional sense - ie inhibiting reuptake or releasing or reversing transport of DA & NE - doesn't mean it can't have stimulant-like affects. Sunifiram is a positive allosteric modulator at the AMPA site. This means it increases the activity of a very common type of glutamate receptor. I believe it allows glutamate to keep signalling the AMPA receptors for a longer period of time or something like that, but the details are fuzzy right now. In that case, since we have increased activity of glutamate, the most common excitatory neurotransmitter, we'd expect stimulant-like effects. Now it might not turn out that way - aniracetam is a PAM of AMPA as well (it's the prototypical ampakine) - and it doesn't feel stimulant-like to me. But it shouldn't be surprising if sunifiram has stimulant-like effects.

[health_nutty]

I received my Sunifiram yesterday and have tried 4 10mg doses of Suni. One dose early last evening (by itself) and three today with my normal noot stack. I took it along with my normal 10mg x 3 of noopept (and 50mg of Pram x 2). I think the combination of these three is too much and it caused typical racetam overstimulation and irritibility. I'm going to try Suni alone again tomorrow as this had the best effect.

Definately notice the simulation effect. It was hard for me to fall asleep despite being very tired (not normal for me). On the plus side I woke up very easily 10 min before my alarm (I never ever ever wake up easily... ever). The mood boost I get is amazing. I feel great taking JUST Suni.

So far I notice stimulation, but not increased mental abilities. My cambridge science scores are slightly down which I attribute to overdoing the racetams. I've been developing a reverse tolerance for noopept which is turning out to be one of my favorite noots by far. My first trial with noopept was 10mg 2x a day for a month, which I didn't notice much and was not impressed. Then I got some bulk powder and started dosing at 20-30 mg 3x a day. This was much much better: I had a lot of motivation to get stuff done, more energy, better memory, better mood, less anxiety. Then I started getting irritable and was feeling overstimulated. I dropped down to 10mg 3 times a day and this was just right: no irritability but I still got all the benefits! Classice reverse tolerance. I tried adding a tiny bit of Pram back into the mix (50mg twice a day), but this pushed me into irritability.

The head rush I get from Suni reminds me a lot of Noopept, but Suni is more stimulating and has even better anti-depressant properties.

[chris106]

Get schizandrol A; an active metabolite of Schisandra. It's supposed to be extremely dopaminergic.

Interesting,I've heard about this.

I'm a little hesitant to tamper too much with dopamine "directly" though. What exactly do you mean when you say "dopaminergic"? Is it an agonist? Because I've read direct agonism is never a good thing because of possible downregulation in the long-term. Plus, I'm allready taking low doses of subultiamine, so that might be a bit much?

[health_nutty]

I'll also note, that contrary to other user's experience I didn't notice any dramatic visual changes at a 10mg dose. Much less color enhancement than Aniracetam (at a dose of 500mg).

[Deeviant]

I'll also note, that contrary to other user's experience I didn't notice any dramatic visual changes at a 10mg dose. Much less color enhancement than Aniracetam (at a dose of 500mg).

I got zero visual change at 10mg, acute visual changes at 100 mg. So that might help to bound the dosage required to affect visuals. For the record, I'm a 290 pound 6'5 guy.

Edited by Deeviant, 19 April 2013 - 05:48 PM.

[health_nutty]

I'll also note, that contrary to other user's experience I didn't notice any dramatic visual changes at a 10mg dose. Much less color enhancement than Aniracetam (at a dose of 500mg).

I got zero visual change at 10mg, acute visual changes at 100 mg. So that might help to bound the dosage required to affect visuals. For the record, I'm a 290 pound 6'5 guy.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. What other effects did you notice at higher doses?

I'm 150lb 5'10"

[OpaqueMind]

Strange, I had one microscoop this morning and noticed few, if any effects.. then I was morbidly tired and fell asleep twice in the library while studying... On walking home, at about 8-9 hours after the initial dose, my vision suddenly became hyper-real and the 3 dimensional perception of my environment increased drastically. Along with this began a slow but steady stream of insights, connecting ideas that i had been pondering recently, click click click like a jigsaw falling into place. It was accompanied by a strong feeling of happiness, I actually danced through the park on my way home haha! This went on for about two hours, and has somewhat subsided now, but was very nice while it lasted. These effects differ drastically from the effects of potent lethargy I experienced for most of the day. Has anyone else experienced such tiredness from Suni? I had only 1 microscoop, I am not sure the dose but it looked about 10-20mg. I think I may be hypersensitive, so I'll try like 2mg next time and go from there.

[Isochroma]

Keep up with proper doses of at least 10mg x 3/day.

The fatigue will go away.

[dogshitwebsite]

Any bloodpressure changes with sunifiram? Looking for an alternative for Noopept which from what I've read lately can rise bloodpressure which sucks for me :(

[OpaqueMind]

Keep up with proper doses of at least 10mg x 3/day.

The fatigue will go away.

Did you experience fatigue to begin with too?

I'm a little tentative to be dosing 3 times a day as I don't have the best sleep already and don't want to mess up what I do get. I guess I'll see how it affects me tonight.

[Deeviant]

I'll also note, that contrary to other user's experience I didn't notice any dramatic visual changes at a 10mg dose. Much less color enhancement than Aniracetam (at a dose of 500mg).

I got zero visual change at 10mg, acute visual changes at 100 mg. So that might help to bound the dosage required to affect visuals. For the record, I'm a 290 pound 6'5 guy.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. What other effects did you notice at higher doses?

I'm 150lb 5'10"

At the higher doses, ~100mg, I noticed rather extreme disruptions to sleep; surreal dreams and woke up 3 hours early wide awake. I did feel tired the day after though, so I don't think I got those three hours "for free". I also noticed a slightly euphoric mood affect, but NOT increased mental clarity. I felt no positive benefits on either concentration nor memory, perhaps to the point of suggesting a negative response.

Emotionally, I am stable, and I'm not a fan of recreational substances; I am in the nootropic game for cognitive enhancement only. So I will be sticking to piracetam/pramracetam for the time being, which I get a very noticeable calming of my rather extreme novelty seeking tendency(ADD) and dyslexia(I'm pretty sure none of the compounds I've have taken helped this at all, but they did make some of the mental processes that I have learned that basically correct for the reading stuff backwards and recalling things all jumbled up).

[Rethar]

Keep up with proper doses of at least 10mg x 3/day.

The fatigue will go away.

Did you experience fatigue to begin with too?

I'm a little tentative to be dosing 3 times a day as I don't have the best sleep already and don't want to mess up what I do get. I guess I'll see how it affects me tonight.

I had a lot of tiredness on day 2 and 3 taking it. In fact day 3 after I dosed I was really fatigued for about 6 hours. Then I got the "sunny" positive mood effects which lasted around 4 and a half hours. I'm now on day 5 and while my sleep is still getting affected (can't sleep as long), I'm feeling much less tired despite now taking 10mg 3x a day, but the tiredness isn't totally gone.

[mallard612]

I took a 10 mg dose this morning and noticed no effects. So I followed it up with 2 additional doses of 10 mg's. About 6-7 hours later, I became extremely tired which lasted a couple of hours. It slowly went away and really haven't noticed any effects except a slight headache and feeling a little clammy. But it has been a little warmer in Boston today and I've had the windows open so it may or may not have been the Sunifiram.

[Isochroma]

OpaqueMind: Not on Sunifiram but I received headaches on Piracetam when I first started it in Summer 2008.

Rather than cut back the dose I raised the dose and pushed though it - and in a couple days they went away and never came back.

As for the other racetams - for most, my brain took a few days to adjust during which paradoxical effects happened.

I have a feeling that if you just play with threshold doses then your brain will never adapt or take much longer to adapt than if you stick with a proper dosing regimen.

If you still get sleepiness after some days then try adding Choline (start low) - another poster reported his sleepiness vanished with that.

However, please do try for 4-5 days with Sunifiram alone - no added choline - to be sure if it's merely an initial adaptation or you actually need Choline.

[Adaptogen]

My sunifiram was delivered today, just minutes after my apartment office closed. Ill try my first dose tomorrow morning.

also, someone on reddit posted this:


"Sunifram's combines two mechanisms with respect to AMPAr. One increases channel open frequency via allosteric modulation, the other gates the channel as a direct agonist.
The body has mechanisms to very rapidly remove excess glutamate that are required to prevent glutamatergic exitotoxicity, which is why relevant ion-channel modulators like Piracetam are not neurotoxic.
If the channel is forced to remain open whilst there is already excess stimulation (Sunifram does both these things by binding as a ligand to two different AMPA receptor sites), leading to a greater threshold of glutamatergic activity within the cell, there would be a greater potential for toxicity than either mode of action alone.
The massive Ca++ influx should result in excitotoxic damage, as Sunifram bound as a direct agonist directly gates the ion channel and makes it open, passing unregulated bucketloads of calcium into the cell, and killing it in the process. AMPARs are expressed to a high extent within the prefrontal cortex and hippocampus, which as is well known, are involved in rational higher cognitive function, learning and memory, as well as in the striatum, where they interact with DA receptors.
I would definitely not fuck around with this drug."

I can't really make any sense of it, could anyone verify (or hopefully disprove) this claim?

Edited by Adaptogen, 20 April 2013 - 07:26 AM.