1565 replies to this topic

[alecnevsky]

Suni could be taken, I think, almost every day. 25-30mg works well for me as today I kind of blinded myself to its effects by mixing it into my water bottle, going out to play some sport, forgetting about the water bottle in car (so the first half of the game was effectively the control condition) and then getting it and drinking like half of it within like 10 min of 2nd half. Amazing. Muscular acuity and coordination is superb. I believe the efffects, again, could be attributed to 200% Ach release which essentially makes your muscles "smarter." Brilliant.

Many more questions than answers right now. I am going to continue benchmarking both chemicals [armo + suni] to fine tune their application.

[therein]

Btw, what issue did you have with colouracetam?

I got an ACH overload that lasted a couple of days. I had to take benadryl (anti-cholinergic) to deal with it. Not super fun.

What were the symptoms?

[violetechos]

Novel nootropic drug sunifiram improves cognitive deficits via CaM kinase II and protein kinase C activation in olfactory bulbectomized mice.pdf

lenses: The reactions you describe are nervious reactions, not caused by Sunifiram.

Panic tends to induce more panic and that just keeps growing on forums like this.

It's time to get realistic and take the energy you are putting into worry and use it for experimentation.

Hey, thank you for the abstract.

No it was definitely not a psychosomatic reaction .It got worse as I was falling asleep, and my foot was cramping and seizing quite painfully the first night I dosed said chemical. Granted this was with a gram of aniracetam, 25 mgs of noopept, and some tianeptine.I'm not even basing my feelings about this one on that. I'm basing it on some rational research... I'm not trying to induce any panic, I think rational harm reduction and a deep understanding of the mechanics of the chemicals I put into my brain is wise. This is an unresearched drug in humans!

Why do you trust it blindly? Because its a 'tam (not even a 'ram!) and they're ALL supposed to fall under the guise of safe? Unless you understand the mechanism of actions for all of these funny russian chemicals you're pumping into your body, its not without it's risks. Wouldn't it make sense to cross reference the mechanisms of action? Messing with Ca+ levels is dangerous.That is a fact. What are we gonna play with next? Pure ca+ and glutamate agonists?

In the meantime I would reccomend if you must dose sunifiram , dose very small, and perhaps not sublingually, and not with other racetams.

Can we nail down the mechanisms of action with this one?

[MizTen]

I do kind of suspect that something did get fixed. It is very enticing now to figure out how to use my best personal practices to fix more with the help of Sunifiram. On the one hand, I am afraid there is a dark side, or that all the good changes will all evaporate, on the other hand, I start thinking that this could be the cure for some intractable brain disorders... and here we are as willing volunteers in some major medical breakthrough.

This grand feeling of a drug that has transformed life itself and cured all possible mental ailments or inefficiencies sounds very familiar to me. It's the same feeling I had the first few weeks I was on Piracetam. I immediately wanted to share this incredible breakthrough with everyone I trusted because it was such an incredible feeling. Unfortunately, as weeks passed by, the effect started dying off and I was left with a very sense of disillusionment that has left me lurking these forums, looking for the holy grail ever since. Now instead of producing this effect, the Piracetam would produce quite the opposite effect (regardless of dosage).

After stopping for a long time, I found that the effect comes back a little bit but fades pretty quickly. The same goes for the other racetams I've tried.

My Question to you is this:
Is Sunifiram your first exposure to a racetam or have you already been through the racetam honeymoon period, only now to see it revived by Sunifiram? I really want to believe your testimony here but I'm tired of wasting money and time on new substances which fail at the same point piracetam does.

No, Sunifiram was not my first exposure to a racetam, but also it's not a racetam. I understand that Sunifiram is an ampakine. I'd been taking racetams for a little over a month with some good effect, but not getting much more benefits than nootropic supplements that I've taken for years. So there wasn't really a honeymoon period. I washed out of the racetams for about 3 days before starting the Sunifiram.

The extreme effects have died off and I am not taking it for a while, nor any other racetams. But there are very interesting lingering effects from my experiences and thought processes while I took it. I think some good strategies for safe and optimal benefits with Sunifiram are appearing on this thread. So I will watch here and hopefully develop my own dosing and cycling.

I don't think it could possibly cure all possible mental ailments or inefficiencies because there are too many causes. No one really knows how safe it is for humans for long term use.

[chung_pao]

Btw, what issue did you have with colouracetam?

I got an ACH overload that lasted a couple of days. I had to take benadryl (anti-cholinergic) to deal with it. Not super fun.

Also curious about the symptoms. I suspect I've experienced ACh overload a few times, and I'd just like to cross-check.

Will report in tomorrow on the effects of: Forskolin, Tyrosine, Caffeine, Zembrin, Sunifiram and P5P.
I've been resensitizing for a few days in anticipation of Zembrin. I fully expect to belittle Nikola Tesla and Einstein combined with my juiced-up intellect

[violetechos]

My symptoms could have been caused by ACh overload too. Sunifiram is sooooo potent and it scares me slightly. The auditory weirdness (things sounding WAY too loud or too soft) freaked me out and happened as well.

Its very easy to overshoot the curve on this one, I guess.

[Isochroma]

lenses: It's the full paper not an abstract.

Furthermore, you complain about bad effects and your're mixing Sunifiram with other non-racetam, strong drugs!

"a gram of aniracetam, 25 mgs of noopept, and some tianeptine"

I already told everyone on this thread to STOP TAKING ALL DRUGS while testing Sunifiram - with the exception being racetams since they are safe.

You didn't follow my directions and now you complain about bad effects - which since nobody else mentioned, we can safely attribute to your mixing Sunifiram with other drugs.

[therein]

I don't/didn't get any of those side effects. Not even at 100mg dosages. I have been using piracetam for over a year, though. Maybe there is some cross-tolerance.

[abelard lindsay]

Also curious about the symptoms. I suspect I've experienced ACh overload a few times, and I'd just like to cross-check.

Depression, anxiety, trouble sleeping, gastrointestinal disturbances, stiff neck, weird headaches, general malaise. It's not subtle at all. More over here: http://mindrenewal.us/page13.html

[alecnevsky]

Alcar will affect your neck more so than A-GPC. The only time I ever had an Ach overload was with Bitartrate (800mg-1200mg) and never with A-GPC (up to 800mg.)

Also, the 200% Ach increase that we presumably observe with Sunifiram feels absolutely nothing like an exogenous choline supplementation. With the latter, there is virtually no noticeable excitatory effect (for me obviously), but with Suni, it's an entirely different experience.

[mettmett]

ive been taking sunifiram for about 2 weeks now and just started suni + zembrin + forskoliin. by itself its hard to say if i feel suni or if it's placebo effect but it feels like there is something happening. slight stimulation and energy. Ive tried 5mg dosing multiple times and also up to 100mg dosing and notice no difference. so i dont really feel like its too special and havent noticed anything increase like vision or memory etc...

i first tried friday zembrin and i took 5mg suni, 25mg Zembrin from here: (http://www.sceletiumtortuosum.com/buy/) , and 10mg forskoliin . about 30 minutes after i took it i started feeling really warm and kind of giddy, but also kind of scared because it reminded me of a time i felt like i was close to having serotonin syndrome(due to foolish consumption of turkey and cheese sandwich while using a shroom-like compound that i cant remember the name of). i almost called out of work because of it because i didnt think i would be able to drive. but i decided to give it another 20 minutes and it was more managable but i felt kind of weird not really myself that whole day. i did sleep exceptionally well that night. oh i forgot to mention that i was drinking the night before i took zembrin for the first time and was maybe a little hungover and dehydrated so that could have been a factor. then on saturday after sleeping great i took it again and didnt have any of those weird effects again and i also slept really great that night. i didnt really have any of the happiness effects from the first time taking it though. so this is my third day and i kind of feel like zembrin and suni's effects both linger so i didnt take it today and i will resume monday.

[violetechos]

lenses: It's the full paper not an abstract.

Furthermore, you complain about bad effects and your're mixing Sunifiram with other non-racetam, strong drugs!

"a gram of aniracetam, 25 mgs of noopept, and some tianeptine"

I already told everyone on this thread to STOP TAKING ALL DRUGS while testing Sunifiram - with the exception being racetams since they are safe.

You didn't follow my directions and now you complain about bad effects - which since nobody else mentioned, we can safely attribute to your mixing Sunifiram with other drugs.

Not all racetams are safe! Your reccommendation to combine racetams and sunifiram,with their overlapping receptor affinitys,is not good advice.Get every AMPA and Glu receptor firing at once?Nobody really knows the affinitys of these compounds. I would reccomend mild Ca channel inhibtors and antioxidants with two electron donors to mitigate safety while testing this stuff.

Not all racetams are safe, and your insistence on blindly defending them like you work for one of the nootropic companys is strange. I know they make you feel good and are helping your life, but can we have a bit of perspective here?

Other people have had tinnitus. There are AMPA/NMDAR receptors in the ear... they could be getting modulated (agonized) from sunifiram. Is that ideal? Safe? I could TOTALLY see someone going deaf from the wrong combination of 'ram with affinity for the ear.

Think about this stuff. Its important and it will matter when someone derps a big derp and blows out their memory, vision, or hearing.

[Isochroma]

I have the studies and I have the experience.

As for 'blindly defending them' (racetams) how do you think I'm blind?

I have read hundreds of studies and have tested almost all of them.

It is you being stupid. It is you not listening. It is YOU taking other psychiatric drugs - Tianeptine in particular - in combination with Sunifiram after the other guy OD's doing something similarly dumb with Caffeine and also after I explicitly explained to everyone in this thread not to play combo games.

SO QUIT TRYING TO DEFLECT BLAME AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR FOOLISHLY SICKENING YOURSELF.

I won't forgive you until you do so publicly.

And I won't unignore your posts until you do so publicly.

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 22 April 2013 - 02:31 AM.

[violetechos]

You have 5 papers with somewhat blurry information about the mechanism of action, a few weeks of use, and you're getting this caught up over this?

My main point about all of this is that mixing different strengths and affinitys of unknown actions of drugs , is not the wisest. I'm not basing much on my one experience with taking it with tianeptine. I don't even care about that.

I'm worried about the mechanism of action of this particular drug ,the unknown affinitys, and the interactions of various AMPA and NMDA receptor subtypes. Open Ca+ Ion channels and agonism is a rational concern with these classes of drugs.All it takes is 1 racetam that increases allosteric AMPA signaling,allowing unnopposed actvity, and another that is an AMPA agonist, and there is worry. Combined with some thing that increases turnover like amphetamine and it could get really messy! You should know this above anybody with your encyclopedic knowledge of every racetam and exactly how they work, that excitotoxicity is a VALID concern.

Do you think we should overlook the tinnutus reports? That would be a big red flag for me if I cared about SARs and rational drug design. Any reports of nootropics with affinitys for the ear is worrisome. It is not intended. What happens if the ear AMPA receptors get upregulated? Permenant tinnitus?

Don't take this personally! I'm not blaming you...for anything? The only reason I would see you getting so angry is if you owned a nootropics company or something.Worried about sales going down?

I'm not saying they are safe or not. I don't know . From my experiences, and from what I read, this is grey area.This isn't my first rodeo,and i've how badly research chemicals can screw people up if not dealt with gingerly. I see you don't like to follow the shulgin protocol with the 100mg dosing. I see you trust it blindly LOL

[Reformed-Redan]

You have 5 papers with somewhat blurry information about the mechanism of action, a few weeks of use, and you're getting this caught up over this?

My main point about all of this is that mixing different strengths and affinitys of unknown actions of drugs , is not the wisest. I'm not basing much on my one experience with taking it with tianeptine. I don't even care about that.

I'm worried about the mechanism of action of this particular drug ,the unknown affinitys, and the interactions of various AMPA and NMDA receptor subtypes. Open Ca+ Ion channels and agonism is a rational concern with these classes of drugs.All it takes is 1 racetam that increases allosteric AMPA signaling,allowing unnopposed actvity, and another that is an AMPA agonist, and there is worry. Combined with some thing that increases turnover like amphetamine and it could get really messy! You should know this above anybody with your encyclopedic knowledge of every racetam and exactly how they work, that excitotoxicity is a VALID concern.

Do you think we should overlook the tinnutus reports? That would be a big red flag for me if I cared about SARs and rational drug design. Any reports of nootropics with affinitys for the ear is worrisome. It is not intended. What happens if the ear AMPA receptors get upregulated? Permenant tinnitus?

Don't take this personally! I'm not blaming you...for anything? The only reason I would see you getting so angry is if you owned a nootropics company or something.Worried about sales going down?

I'm not saying they are safe or not. I don't know . From my experiences, and from what I read, this is grey area.This isn't my first rodeo,and i've how badly research chemicals can screw people up if not dealt with gingerly. I see you don't like to follow the shulgin protocol with the 100mg dosing. I see you trust it blindly LOL

+1

[Isochroma]

I hope that the two users on this board who foolishly combined Sunifiram with other substances serve as reminders to all those who are reading: Sunifiram is still a largely unknown molecule.

By itself Sunifiram has been shown to be safe at 100x the normal dose but it has not been formally tested in combination with other drugs - at least not the kind of drugs folks tend to use.

Thus, if anyone should decide they want to test Sunifiram with other drugs, here's my suggestions:

1. Racetams. Because they do not have strong - or any - receptor affinities and do not generally act as either agonists or antagonists it can be expected that racetams can safely be combined with Sunifiram - they are molecular 'birds of a feather'. Supporting this statement, I have not experienced any bad effects from combining with Piracetam and nobody has reported any bad interaction with other racetams.

2. Other Drugs. If they are stimulants like Caffeine or Amphetamine be careful - racetams are known and reported to potentiate stimulants and at least one person had an emergency reaction to combining Sunifiram with a high dose of Caffeine. This is where the Shulgin Protocol is necessary - when combining Sunifiram with non-racetam drugs. Start by testing Sunifiram alone, then use a very small dose of the drug to test in combination with it - say about 1/10 of your typical dose. Then work up by doubling it, making sure to leave washout time in-between.

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 22 April 2013 - 03:41 AM.

[emckai]

Alright, I'll officially be taking Sunfiram 10mg every 2-3 hours starting tomorrow (Monday).

I did take Sunifiram 10mg every 2-3 hours today and I just had the urge to clean my room (mostly my desk) and cut the grass in the backyard.
Hopefully Sunifiram will keep me focused tomorrow because I need to get an essay done.

If it doesn't work, oh well.. I'll just work without nootropics.

[Q did it!]

I hope that the two users on this board who foolishly combined Sunifiram with other substances serve as reminders to all those who are reading: Sunifiram is still a largely unknown molecule.

By itself it has been shown to be safe at 100x the normal dose, but it has not been tested in combination with other drugs.

Thus, if anyone should decide they want to test Sunifiram with other drugs, here's my suggestions:

1. Racetams. Because they do not have strong - or any - receptor affinities and do not generally act as either agonists or antagonists it can be expected that racetams can safely be combined with Sunifiram - they are molecular 'birds of a feather'. Supporting this statement, I have not experienced any bad effects from combining with Piracetam and nobody has reported any bad interaction with other racetams.

2. Other Drugs. If they are stimulants like Caffeine or Amphetamine be careful - racetams are known and reported to potentiate stimulants and at least one person had an emergency reaction to combining Sunifiram with a high dose of Caffeine. This is where the Shulgin Protocol is necessary - when combining Sunifiram with non-racetam drugs. Start by testing Sunifiram alone, then use a very small dose of the drug to test in combination with it - say about 1/10 of your typical dose. Then work up by doubling it, making sure to leave washout time in-between.

I agree with you in part on this how it should be but most of us do not have the time to test it this way.

[Ames]

Other people have had tinnitus. There are AMPA/NMDAR receptors in the ear... they could be getting modulated (agonized) from sunifiram. Is that ideal? Safe? I could TOTALLY see someone going deaf from the wrong combination of 'ram with affinity for the ear.

I have racetam induced tinnitus that hasn't gone away after a couple of years. It started with feeling like I have something in my auditory canal. A feeling that went away after a couple of months (leaving tinnitus in its wake) but, strangely, has resurfaced recently.

Edited by golgi1, 22 April 2013 - 04:38 AM.

[uglybuddy6]

Sunifram sounds very promising and interesting but the first thing i thought when i saw its structure was Benzylpiperazine(BZP). Now from reading many reviews it seems to have very different effects from BZP but it could explain the slight mania some user report and other things. Sorry if this has been brought up before.

[owtsgmi]

Can anyone else attest to the effects mentioned by abelard lindsay?

One case doesnt make a rule.

It appears I'm the only one who's tried Zembrin/Ciltep/Suni . Seems the cost of Zembrin is putting a lot of people off trying it.

I am going to try this. Been on CILTEP for 8 months (artichoke/forskolin) and just started Suni 5 days ago. I have the Zembrin waiting but I need to stablize on the Suni first. I am still seeing if it will remain in the stack. I have to say so far so good! But, the Zembrin will be next option to replace the artichoke in CILTEP.

[violetechos]

Other people have had tinnitus. There are AMPA/NMDAR receptors in the ear... they could be getting modulated (agonized) from sunifiram. Is that ideal? Safe? I could TOTALLY see someone going deaf from the wrong combination of 'ram with affinity for the ear.

I have racetam induced tinnitus that hasn't gone away after a couple of years. It started with feeling like I have something in my auditory canal. A feeling that went away after a couple of months (leaving tinnitus in its wake) but, strangely, has resurfaced recently.

Thats sucky! I'm sorry. What racetams were you taking?

[8bitmore]

[...]
Can we nail down the mechanisms of action with this one?

I really, really, doubt that: Piracetam has been on the market for plus 40 years and the mechanism of action is STILL speculative, it is far easier to experimentally prove its safety through "safe" dosing and, ASAP, clinical studies on humans!

[renfr]

Racetams are more dangerous than what most people think, they're not innocent drugs.
It's even more dangerous if you're going to combine it with calcium and glutamate, I've read some people trying to do that and that's very stupid and dangerous.

I also have a racetam induced tinnitus from last year but thanks to trying several stuff to cure the tinnitus I barely hear it now, it is practically nonexistent but the danger still remains here.
sunifiram is probably less dangerous and didn't have any effect even at high doses

[megatron]

Would any of the members located in Europe be willing to sell some of their Sunifiram? As you know my Suni was seized by customs. I can't get any drug into the country from outside the EU. I just have the need to try something else while being tortured by the waiting time for NSI-189 and PRL 8-53.

Thanks!

[BSNstudent]

Suni- near photographic memory for me.. Recent test scores 88%, 95% since i've started, been using Suni for three weeks now. at 25-30mg x bid.
noopept also in combo with it, so that could contribute to memory increase, kinda wonder if they synergize ?

Overall, no side effects noted. besides mood changes, but that's typical, and stress is a major reason to that!

[Bismarck]

What do you guys think of possible side effects dosing zoloft and hydergine with suni? I really like Suni but after reading what has been written here over the last few pages iam really concerned. Im not willing to stop the zoloft because its been working very well for me and I dont experience any side effects from it.

[health_nutty]

Suni- near photographic memory for me.. Recent test scores 88%, 95% since i've started, been using Suni for three weeks now. at 25-30mg x bid.
noopept also in combo with it, so that could contribute to memory increase, kinda wonder if they synergize ?

Overall, no side effects noted. besides mood changes, but that's typical, and stress is a major reason to that!

What test scores are 88 - 95%? Cambridge Brain Science working memory test? Tests for school?

25-30mg bid, so 60mg total per day?
How much noopept are you taking?

How many days of taking Sunifiram before you noticed the improvement in memory?

Edited by health_nutty, 22 April 2013 - 05:28 PM.

[Ames]

Other people have had tinnitus. There are AMPA/NMDAR receptors in the ear... they could be getting modulated (agonized) from sunifiram. Is that ideal? Safe? I could TOTALLY see someone going deaf from the wrong combination of 'ram with affinity for the ear.

I have racetam induced tinnitus that hasn't gone away after a couple of years. It started with feeling like I have something in my auditory canal. A feeling that went away after a couple of months (leaving tinnitus in its wake) but, strangely, has resurfaced recently.

Thats sucky! I'm sorry. What racetams were you taking?

Mostly aniracetam. That's what I started with and took for the longer period of time. I associate it with the tinnitus.

Racetams are more dangerous than what most people think, they're not innocent drugs.
It's even more dangerous if you're going to combine it with calcium and glutamate, I've read some people trying to do that and that's very stupid and dangerous.

I also have a racetam induced tinnitus from last year but thanks to trying several stuff to cure the tinnitus I barely hear it now, it is practically nonexistent but the danger still remains here.
sunifiram is probably less dangerous and didn't have any effect even at high doses

I'd be interested to know what you took to reduce it. I, too, have been able to reduce it but not eliminate it. Although I find that anything that inhibits exitotoxicity / NMDA receptors or is a BBB crossing antioxidant / or antiinflammatory helps, the strongest otoprotective / tinnitus reducing effect has come from a small dose of a weak dilution of sodium thiosulfate.The recent feeling of something in my ear canal is troubling, as I know that to be a symptom of hearing damage.

Edited by golgi1, 22 April 2013 - 07:15 PM.

[Isochroma]

Megatrone: Your wish came true today.

Today I added the first eBay Sunifiram supplier to the Racetam Prices list.

And they ship from the UK inside the EU

They're cheaper than New Star Nootropics and already on my list for 50g Nefiracetam: vantagecc.

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 23 April 2013 - 11:40 PM.