71 replies to this topic

[leanguy]

So my prolactin has slowly been increasing and now its over the range at 16.8 ng/ml. I believe this is negatively affecting my mood and libido. The problem is, I am very sensitive to side effects of drugs or supplements. I am easily prone to anxiety and insomnia, so I'm looking for a way to boost dopamine (and reduce prolactin) without excess norepinephrine. It seems a dopamine agonist would be the ideal choice, however I have tried several (mirapex, requip, bromocriptine) and they all seem to disrupt sleep in a major way. I'm scared to try dostinex due to the extremely long half life. Any other ideas to indirectly boost dopamine? What about high dose L-theanine? I couldn't find any conclusive studies that it actually raises dopamine in a way that counters prolactin. Thanks in advance.

Edited by leanguy, 01 April 2013 - 04:34 PM.

[Elus]

I've read anecdotal reports of males using cabergoline to avoid the refractory period induced by prolactin. That could be dangerous, though, considering that there are reported cardiovascular side effects.

Edited by Elus, 01 April 2013 - 09:29 PM.

[spermidine]

leanguy, what about sulbutiamine ? it affects dopamine but so mild it doesnt cause major side effects. thing is, most people who have tried it did not experience anything enough significant for good review, but since you mentioned you are very sensitive to supplements and drugs, i think this very mild subtle supplement might be felt ?

[leanguy]

I've read anecdotal reports of males using cabergoline to avoid the refractory period induced by prolactin. That could be dangerous, though, considering that there are reported cardiovascular side effects.

yeah, trying to avoid dopamine agonists

leanguy, what about sulbutiamine ? it affects dopamine but so mild it doesnt cause major side effects. thing is, most people who have tried it did not experience anything enough significant for good review, but since you mentioned you are very sensitive to supplements and drugs, i think this very mild subtle supplement might be felt ?

interesting idea, I would be willing to try sulbutiamine, even though I expect possible insomnia from it.

another similar supplement is NADH, but I didn't notice much from it.

Edited by leanguy, 02 April 2013 - 02:40 AM.

[spermidine]

NADH seems to be scam. it doesnt have any bioavability taken orally and i dunno what other route should one take it considering it doesnt matter anyway its enzymatic reaction within your body that occurs and is labeled NADH for short. assumingly some company sold it as supplement as direct energy booster but its ridiculous. you should try sulbutiamine and report back. different doses at different times, start with lowest if you are scared of insomnia BUT unless you are really really sensitive can you even feel anything.

[krsna]

high dose l-theanine definitely increase libido for me, makes me feel almost drunk. by high dose i mean 5grams at once. sleep like a baby too.

[leanguy]

high dose l-theanine definitely increase libido for me, makes me feel almost drunk. by high dose i mean 5grams at once. sleep like a baby too.

Wow that is a huge dose... but the kind of response I'm looking for. How often do you do this, and do you have any issues with tolerance, withdrawal, or other sides?

[krsna]

i did that for two months consecutively until i ran out, i wouldn`t say i experienced any tolerance with it, though i will say many years ago when i first tried l-theanine the `high`i got from it was very present, almost a marijuana high type feeling, i never was able to recapture that even with the highest doses, but the other effects lasted. i never experienced any negatives from it at the very least, which is more than i can say for most things, plus the powder is so sweet and tasty it`s hard not to just scoop a bunch into the mouth, it`s like icing sugar flavour.

oh, and in terms of libido, I don`t know if it works through any specific dopamine system per se, for that you could always just high dose some caffeine, where l-theanine works is through I would say the gaba system, similar to alcohol - ie, your brain stops thinking and analyzing, stress is reduced and when you see a girl who is pretty .. or even not so pretty, you just are like umm yeah, what fun i could have.. all the logic overthinking bs just isn`t there, there`s no stress or inhibitions. so whether it would be helpful to you or not really depends whether its more psychological or physical your issues.

Edited by bowleaf, 02 April 2013 - 11:00 PM.

[spermidine]

bowlead dont be irresponsible suggesting people consume such huge doses of anything no matter how safe the profile. besides l-theanine has nothing to do with dopamine !

[krsna]

bowlead dont be irresponsible suggesting people consume such huge doses of anything no matter how safe the profile. besides l-theanine has nothing to do with dopamine !

I didn't suggest anyone to do anything, I shared my own experiences. The safety profile on l-theanine is pretty well-established in any event, but I would advise anyone to do their own research before ingesting anything they aren't familiar with. For the record: "Side Effects and Toxicity
L-theanine is generally well tolerated, and
has an LD50 of greater than 5,000 mg/kg in rats. It
is not mutagenic or carcinogenic in animals or bacteria."


With supplements like this there is rarely 'definitive' proof of this or that effect, however l-theanine has 'been shown' to increase dopamine levels, I suggest you google dopamine l-theanine. The OP was the one who first mentioned this relation, I simply responded to it. Since I'm generous I've taken the trouble to do a two second google search, amongst the first results, since you obviously couldn't have been bothered to attempt the same:

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9566605

"These results suggest that theanine might affect the metabolism and/or the release of some neurotransmitters in the brain, such as DA."

Like I said, this isn't 'definitive proof' of anything, but to say that 'l-theanine has nothing to do with dopamine' shows your ignorance on the subject as there is a pretty strong hypothesis that it does in fact have a great deal to do with dopamine.

Before trying to lecture others you may wish to consider your responses first before posting, what you've posted was really irrelevant and uncalled for.

Edited by bowleaf, 03 April 2013 - 01:10 AM.

[Thorsten3]

High dose chasteberry?

http://www.aafp.org/.../0901/p821.html

[daouda]

I know you said you want to avoid dopaminergics as they seem to interfere with sleep, but many bodybuilders take mucuna standardized in L-Dopa specifically AT BEDTIME as a "GH secretagogue" and claim it makes for a better, deeper sleep. Personaly I take it only on a on-demand basis (for motivation/energy/libido purposes) and if before bedtime it's definitely not to enhance sleep. Maybe you should try it, not expensive and a very effective dopaminergic oddly enough devoid of some of the side effects of straight, synthethic L-dopa (http://www.ncbi.nlm..../v075p01672.pdf)
Some say one should take it with EGCG green tea extract as a natural decarboxylase inhibitor to avoid the (unwanted, and potentially dangerous) peripheral effects of dopamine.

[Redux]

Im exactly like you. Get very easily side effects with drugs, and anxiety is always a concern. I tried recently Zinc Methionine, with very interesting results. Couple of nights ago 30mg resulting in hypomania, and high libido.. Last night tried 15mg much more subtle but its there that punchy dopaminergic effect.

All GABAgenic drugs seem to increase dopamine in some way, have a look at Ashwagandha.



Zinc regulates the dopamine transporter in a membrane potential and chloride dependent manner.

Pifl C, Wolf A, Rebernik P, Reither H, Berger ML.
Source
Center for Brain Research, Medical University of Vienna, Spitalgasse 4, A-1090 Vienna, Austria. christian.pifl@meduniwien.ac.at

Abstract

The dopamine transporter (DAT), a membrane protein specifically expressed by dopaminergic neurons and mediating the action of psychostimulants and dopaminergic neurotoxins, is regulated by Zn(2+) which directly interacts with the protein. Herein, we report a host-cell-specific direction of the Zn(2+) effect on wild type DAT. Whereas low mumolar Zn(2+) decreased dopamine uptake by DAT expressing HEK293 cells, it stimulated uptake by DAT expressing SK-N-MC cells. Inhibition or stimulation was lost in a DAT construct without the binding site for Zn(2+). Also reverse transport was differentially affected by Zn(2+), dependent on whether the DAT was expressed in HEK293 or SK-N-MC cells. Pre-treatment of DAT expressing cells with phorbol-12-myristate-13-acetate, an activator of protein kinase C, attenuated the inhibitory effect of Zn(2+) on uptake in HEK293 cells and increased the stimulatory effect in SK-N-MC cells. Patch-clamp experiments under non-voltage-clamped conditions revealed a significantly higher membrane potential of HEK293 than SK-N-MC cells and a reduced membrane potential after phorbol ester treatment. Lowering chloride in the uptake buffer switched the stimulatory effect of Zn(2+) in SK-N-MC cells to an inhibitory, whereas high potassium depolarization of HEK293 cells switched the inhibitory effect of Zn(2+) to a stimulatory one. This study represents the first evidence that DAT regulation by Zn(2+) is profoundly modulated by the membrane potential and chloride

Edited by Redux, 04 April 2013 - 05:34 PM.

[krsna]

I know you said you want to avoid dopaminergics as they seem to interfere with sleep, but many bodybuilders take mucuna standardized in L-Dopa specifically AT BEDTIME as a "GH secretagogue" and claim it makes for a better, deeper sleep. Personaly I take it only on a on-demand basis (for motivation/energy/libido purposes) and if before bedtime it's definitely not to enhance sleep. Maybe you should try it, not expensive and a very effective dopaminergic oddly enough devoid of some of the side effects of straight, synthethic L-dopa (http://www.ncbi.nlm..../v075p01672.pdf)
Some say one should take it with EGCG green tea extract as a natural decarboxylase inhibitor to avoid the (unwanted, and potentially dangerous) peripheral effects of dopamine.

L-dopa and even to a lesser extent mucuna is scary stuff, no? I remember looking into l-dopa at a time I was considering taking part in a phase 2 clinical trial on a generic version of it, ended up opting out of it though, the risk of dyskinesia was too high for me, I can't think of much worse than that. "The symptoms include tremors and writhing movements of the body and limbs and abnormal movements in the face, mouth, and tongue, including involuntary lip smacking, repetitive pouting of the lips, and tongue protrusions."

[daouda]

You missed the part where I wrote that mucuna seems to be, strangely (at least at reasonable doses), devoid of the dyskinesia-inducing side effect that straight pharma L-dopa presents. The reference is the link (pdf) I posted above, you should have skimmed it

Here's a link to the pubmed abstarct
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1738871/

Mucuna pruriens in Parkinson's disease: a double blind clinical and pharmacological study


Background: The seed powder of the leguminous plant, Mucuna pruriens has long been used in traditional Ayurvedic Indian medicine for diseases including parkinsonism. We have assessed the clinical effects and levodopa (L-dopa) pharmacokinetics following two different doses of mucuna preparation and compared them with standard L-dopa/carbidopa (LD/CD).

Conclusions: The rapid onset of action and longer on time without concomitant increase in dyskinesias on
mucuna seed powder formulation suggest that this natural source of L-dopa might possess advantages
over conventional L-dopa preparations in the long term management of PD. Assessment of long term
efficacy and tolerability in a randomised, controlled study is warranted.

Also
http://www.hindawi.c...am/2012/840247/

The Antiparkinsonian and Antidyskinetic Mechanisms of Mucuna pruriens in the MPTP-Treated Nonhuman Primate

Oral MPWE ameliorated parkinsonism without causing drug-induced dyskinesias. The distinctive neurophysiological findings in the basal ganglia and the ability to ameliorate parkinsonism without causing dyskinesias strongly suggest that Mucuna pruriensacts through a novel mechanism that is different from that of L-Dopa.



and
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20570206

A water extract of Mucuna pruriens provides long-term amelioration of parkinsonism with reduced risk for dyskinesias.

Dopaminergic anti-parkinsonian medications, such as levodopa (LD) cause drug-induced dyskinesias (DID) in majority of patients with Parkinson's disease (PD). Mucuna pruriens, a legume extensively used in Ayurveda to treat PD, is reputed to provide anti-parkinsonian benefits without inducing DID.
We compared the behavioral effects of chronic parenteral administration of a water extract of M. pruriens seed powder (MPE) alone without any additives, MPE combined with the peripheral dopa-decarboxylase inhibitor (DDCI) benserazide (MPE+BZ), LD+BZ and LD alone without BZ in the hemiparkinsonian rat model of PD.
(...)
These findings suggest that M. pruriens contains water-soluble ingredients that either have an intrinsic DDCI-like activity or mitigate the need for an add-on DDCI to ameliorate parkinsonism. These unique long-term anti-parkinsonian effects of a parenterally administered water extract of M. pruriens seed powder may provide a platform for future drug discoveries and novel treatment strategies in PD.

[So unlike with pure L-dopa a decarboxylase inhibitor may not be needed with mucuna extract, so one can probably skip the green tea extract part - which is consistent with my own experience]

Edited by daouda, 04 April 2013 - 06:41 PM.

[spermidine]

Im exactly like you. Get very easily side effects with drugs, and anxiety is always a concern. I tried recently Zinc Methionine, with very interesting results. Couple of nights ago 30mg resulting in hypomania, and high libido.. Last night tried 15mg much more subtle but its there that punchy dopaminergic effect.

All GABAgenic drugs seem to increase dopamine in some way, have a look at Ashwagandha.



Zinc regulates the dopamine transporter in a membrane potential and chloride dependent manner.

Pifl C, Wolf A, Rebernik P, Reither H, Berger ML.
Source
Center for Brain Research, Medical University of Vienna, Spitalgasse 4, A-1090 Vienna, Austria. christian.pifl@meduniwien.ac.at

Abstract

The dopamine transporter (DAT), a membrane protein specifically expressed by dopaminergic neurons and mediating the action of psychostimulants and dopaminergic neurotoxins, is regulated by Zn(2+) which directly interacts with the protein. Herein, we report a host-cell-specific direction of the Zn(2+) effect on wild type DAT. Whereas low mumolar Zn(2+) decreased dopamine uptake by DAT expressing HEK293 cells, it stimulated uptake by DAT expressing SK-N-MC cells. Inhibition or stimulation was lost in a DAT construct without the binding site for Zn(2+). Also reverse transport was differentially affected by Zn(2+), dependent on whether the DAT was expressed in HEK293 or SK-N-MC cells. Pre-treatment of DAT expressing cells with phorbol-12-myristate-13-acetate, an activator of protein kinase C, attenuated the inhibitory effect of Zn(2+) on uptake in HEK293 cells and increased the stimulatory effect in SK-N-MC cells. Patch-clamp experiments under non-voltage-clamped conditions revealed a significantly higher membrane potential of HEK293 than SK-N-MC cells and a reduced membrane potential after phorbol ester treatment. Lowering chloride in the uptake buffer switched the stimulatory effect of Zn(2+) in SK-N-MC cells to an inhibitory, whereas high potassium depolarization of HEK293 cells switched the inhibitory effect of Zn(2+) to a stimulatory one. This study represents the first evidence that DAT regulation by Zn(2+) is profoundly modulated by the membrane potential and chloride

zinc methionine aka OptiZinc right ? did you take it regularly for a week to achieve those results or it occurs quite quickly in 1-2 nights ??

[krsna]

That's interesting, I seem to have a strange memory of reading some risks associated with mucuna though, not to scare-monger needlessly, but I would definitely research it further for anyone intending or already using it, I recall at the time my interest in the study was an opportunity to use levodopa (without prescription), thinking I was low in dopamine for my social anxiety issues, the dyskinesia scared me off and I remember looking into mucuna but deciding against it after reading certain things. Has anyone taken it regularly over an extended period of time? Curious to hear any side effects, good or bad.

[leanguy]

High dose chasteberry?

I considered this. I got a little worried about the hormonal effects, plus most of the studies have been done with women not men.

I know you said you want to avoid dopaminergics as they seem to interfere with sleep, but many bodybuilders take mucuna standardized in L-Dopa specifically AT BEDTIME as a "GH secretagogue" and claim it makes for a better, deeper sleep. Personaly I take it only on a on-demand basis (for motivation/energy/libido purposes) and if before bedtime it's definitely not to enhance sleep.

I have tried mucuna and pure l-dopa. Both increased anxiety for me... mucuna the most. I can't even take B6. My main problem is rapid turnover from dopamine to norepinephrine. If there was a way to slow down this process that would be ideal for me.

Im exactly like you. Get very easily side effects with drugs, and anxiety is always a concern. I tried recently Zinc Methionine, with very interesting results. Couple of nights ago 30mg resulting in hypomania, and high libido.. Last night tried 15mg much more subtle but its there that punchy dopaminergic effect.

All GABAgenic drugs seem to increase dopamine in some way, have a look at Ashwagandha.

I already take 30mg zinc. Interesting though; I wasn't aware of the DA connection. The results you experienced might be from increased testosterone levels though.

[Guardian4981]

That's interesting, I seem to have a strange memory of reading some risks associated with mucuna though, not to scare-monger needlessly, but I would definitely research it further for anyone intending or already using it, I recall at the time my interest in the study was an opportunity to use levodopa (without prescription), thinking I was low in dopamine for my social anxiety issues, the dyskinesia scared me off and I remember looking into mucuna but deciding against it after reading certain things. Has anyone taken it regularly over an extended period of time? Curious to hear any side effects, good or bad.

I have taken Mucana consistently for about half a year, about a gram of day, but keep in mind I take it raw, its not standardized for dopa. Generally, I have found since taking it that I do not get overly anxious anymore. I am not sure I have any negative side effects at least any that I can contribute toward the mucana. I have had some other issues but I believe its unrelated as it started before the mucana.

[spermidine]

i was taking mucana long time ago and got overly excited, very good orgasms on it but the anxiety persisted and had to cut it short

[Redux]

zinc methionine aka OptiZinc right ? did you take it regularly for a week to achieve those results or it occurs quite quickly in 1-2 nights ??

Exactly. I have been taking NOW Foods OptiZinc. I achieve immediately the results, working for the next 48H.

I

I already take 30mg zinc. Interesting though; I wasn't aware of the DA connection. The results you experienced might be from increased testosterone levels though.

I don't believe it's not only based on T Levels. I do rigorous exercise and weightlifting 4 days per week, have a strict fish/vegetables diet which should give enough zinc. This results seem to be exclusive of the Zinc Methionine, while Zinc Picolate didn't do anything at all.

The former study presented says that Zinc mimicking the action of amphetamine-like drugs by inhibition of Dopamine Transporter Protein. As long as the cell is excitable zinc blocks dopamine reuptake, if the cell slows down, zinc also enhances dopamine uptake. It means that it should elevate dopamine levels in sypnase.

You also might want to have a look if you have ADD, and your anxiety comes from that place - low dopamine / prefrontal cortex disregulation.

http://adhd-treatmen...ombat-adhd.html

On another curious note, Zinc Methionene in combination with Magnesium CItrate seems to enhances my recovery times in about 30%, feel much less stiff and tired than usually after gym. This is seems to work in a same way as the commercial ZMA supplement, includes Zinc Methionine and Aspartate and Magnesium Aspartate.

http://en.wikipedia....MA_(supplement)

Edited by Redux, 05 April 2013 - 09:17 AM.

[spermidine]

oh, i have been taking source naturals Optizinc and i havent felt a thing. supposed to be same patent product in different company products but maybe its just me

[MrHappy]

The uridine stack modulates dopamine - like a rapid homeostasis. It provides excellent mood uplifting effects for most people and also sleep benefits by positively affecting circadian rhythms.

May help?

[krsna]

I gotta watch the movie Awakenings.. apparently it's based on a true story of mass l-dopa dosing.

Edited by bowleaf, 06 April 2013 - 12:43 PM.

[daouda]

[krsna]

good ole youtube, can't keep up with the piracy

[spermidine]

LOL


btw can someone sum up the movie for me. i cant bother watching

Edited by spermidine, 06 April 2013 - 07:19 PM.

[Redux]

Have you tried to research into traditional testosterone / sexual enhancement supplements like Horny Goat Weed, Tribulus Terrestris, Maca, Tongkat Ali, Chrysin? Although this different supplements play with hormones and you should be careful, still might be worthy a shot. From my own experience Tribulus Terrestris would be the first to try.

Edited by Redux, 07 April 2013 - 12:10 PM.

[norepinephrine]

According to the scientific literature, maca does not affect testosterone levels (1), and is not a primary prolactin-inhibitor (2) but may have secondary means of inhibition.

(1) - http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12472620
(2) - http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12525260

[**DEACTIVATED**]

Have you tried to research into traditional testosterone / sexual enhancement supplements like Horny Goat Weed, Tribulus Terrestris, Maca, Tongkat Ali, Chrysin? Although this different supplements play with hormones and you should be careful, still might be worthy a shot. From my own experience Tribulus Terrestris would be the first to try.

Tribulus probably wouldn't hurt anyone. I'd like to piggie back on the Chrysin suggestion though..

My Chrysin bottle says "Chrysin, commonly found in the plant Passiflora Coerulea, is structurally defined as 5, 7 dihydroxlyflavone. Chrysin has demonstrated an ability to maximize testosterone by inhibiting aroma taste activity. Aromataese is the enzyme responsible for the conversion of androstenedione and testosterone into esterone and eatersiol respectively. Testosterone is responsible for increases in lean body mass and strength."

What's up with this stuff? I have a unopened bottle from MRM of it. Anything to be worried about? Bad on liver maybe? The goal would be for additional strength.