26 replies to this topic

[ta5]

Can someone tell me which of these supplements are blood thinners? I know fish oil and vitamin E can thin the blood. I'm having trouble finding this info. Thanks.


Acetyl-L-Carnitine
Ashwagandha
B Complex
Bacopa
CDP-Choline
Chromium
CoQ10
Curcumin
DHEA
Fish Oil
Gamma E
Glutamine
Glycine
Gotu Kola
Green Tea Extract
Inositol
Magnesium Taurate
Phosphatidylserine
PQQ
Pregnenolone
R-Lipoic Acid
Relora
Rhodiola Rosea
Siberian Ginseng
Taurine
Theanine
Tocotrienols
Tyrosine

[Kevnzworld]

It's a controversial topic. I am currently on Xarelto, ( a prescription blood thinner ), so I have to be wary of supplements that might cause additional thinning . Some say CoQ10 does, there's not evidence of it that I've seen. I still take 200 mg of ubiquinol. Fish oil and vitamin E can definitely thin blood in high enough doses. I limit my fish oil and vitamin E, ..2000 mg fish oil, 400 iu tocotrienols, and gamma E.

[niner]

I'm not sure why it would be controversial. There's an objective measure of blood clotting ability, known as the Prothrombin Time. This could be measured before and after people are dosed with any supplement, and compared. Maybe the controversy comes in because the measurements haven't been done, so we're stuck with people's claims. I don't know. At any rate, Fish Oil and Vitamin E are known problems. Warfarin is a blood thinner that works by causing a Vitamin K deficiency. Supplemental Vitamin K is antagonistic, but it just normalizes clotting; that doesn't mean that extra vitamin K would "thicken" the blood, or cause excess clotting in someone who didn't take Warfarin, absent some weird genetic defect.

I think that most supplements don't have much of an effect on clotting.

[Kevnzworld]

The controversy exists because so little is really known about the blood thinning potential of many of the supplements we take, and there are contradictory claims. CoQ10 is a classic example, so is curcumin. . The problem with Coumadin and the PT/ INR tests is that they are so erratic.
The new class of blood thinners like Xerelto can't be reversed with vitamin K like warfarin can. So ingesting other potential anticoagulants or blood thinners can be hazardous .

[Luminosity]

turmeric

Is vitamin K a blood thinner? It is for me.

Things that bring down cholesterol could be blood thinners.

[Kevnzworld]

turmeric

Is vitamin K a blood thinner? It is for me.

Things that bring down cholesterol could be blood thinners.

Vitamin K regulates blood coagulation . It isn't a blood " thickener " per se. It is an antidote for blood thinners like warfarin. It ISN'T a blood thinner.
" Things " that bring down cholesterol , like statins? Statin therapy isn't contraindicated for people on warfarin...

[Luminosity]

Natural medicines like Puerh tea, certain supplements, etc.

[leanguy]

Many antioxidants do. Lipoic Acid, Grape Seed, Resveratrol.

[niner]

Sounds like we might have multiple definitions for "blood thinner", which doesn't surprise me, since it's a pretty vague term. Are we talking about prothrombin time, or the apparent "viscosity" of blood, or "gee, my blood feels thinner today"? There are other objective measures besides prothrombin time- I'd rather see the data than just hear claims, but it's probably the case that the data doesn't exist on many supplements.

[Mind]

Aspirin

[Adaptogen]

does the combination of aspirin and curcumin hold a substantial risk? my dad has been taking low dose aspirin for years, but i would like him to start supplementing with turmeric.

[ta5]

How long before surgery should one stop taking blood thinners?

I've always heard to stop a week before. Is a week really necessary?

[pamojja]

I think that most supplements don't have much of an effect on clotting.

That's my experience.

Wanted to see how many of my supplements have increased bleeding as risk. According to NaturalStandard - with my supplements taken in therapeutic doses marked in yellow:

Agents That May Increase Risk of Bleeding or Clotting

Agents reported to cause clinically significant bleeding in case report(s)
Garlic (Allium sativum), ginger, Ginkgo biloba, saw palmetto (Serenoa repens).
Agents that may increase risk of bleeding (based on evidence from basic science, animal study, human case reports/trials, expert opinion, or anecdote)
Acacia, acerola, aconite, agrimony, alfalfa (Medicago sativa)*, aloe, alpha-linolenic acid, alpinia, American ginseng (Panax quinquifolius), American pawpaw, Andrographis paniculata Nees, angelica (Angelica archangelica)*, angel's trumpet, anise (Pimpinella anisum)*, aniseed, annatto, aortic acid, arabinogalactan, arginine (L-arginine), aristolochia, arnica (Arnica montana), asafetida (Ferula asafetida)*, ashwagandha (Withania somnifera L.), aspen bark**, astragalus, avocado (Persea americana), babassu, banaba, barley, Bear's garlic, Bellis perennis, beta-sitosterol, bilberry (Vaccinium myrtillus), birch (Betula barosma)**, black cohosh (Cimifuga racemosa)**, black currant, bladderwrack (Fucus vesiculosis), blessed thistle, bogbean (Menyanthes trifoliata), boldo (Peumus boldus), borage seed oil, breviscapine, bromelain (Anas comosus), bupleurum, burdock (Arctium lappa), calamus, calendula, capsicum, cat's claw (Uncaria tomentosa), celery (Apium graveolens)*, chamomile (Matricaria recutita)*, chaparral (Larrea tridentate (DC) Coville, Larrea divaricata Cav.), chia, chlorella, chondroitin sulfate, cinnamon*, clove (Eugenia aromatica), codonopsis, coenzyme Q10, coleus (Coleus forskohlii), coltsfoot, cordyceps (Cordyceps sinensis), cowhage, cranberry, daisy, dandelion (Taraxacum officinale)*, danshen (Salvia miltiorrhiza), Datura wrightii, desert parsley, devil's claw (Harpagophytum procumbens), DHEA, diallyl trisulfide, dong quai (Angelica sinensis), echistatin, elder, EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid), evening primrose oil (Oenothera biennis)***, fennel (Foeniculum vulgare Mill.), fenugreek (Trigonella foenum-graecum)*, feverfew (Tanacetum parthenium)***, fig (Ficus carica), fisetin, fish oil***, flavonoids, flaxseed/flax powder (not a concern with flaxseed oil), forskolin, fucus, gamma-linolenic acid, gamma-oryzanol, Ganoderma japonicum, garlic (Allium sativum)***, genistein, German chamomile, ginger (Zingiber officinalis)***, ginkgo (Ginkgo biloba)***, ginseng (Panax spp.)***, globe artichoke (Cynara scolymus L.), goldenseal (Hydrastis canadensis L.), grape seed (Vitis vinifera), grapefruit juice, green tea (Camellia sinensis), ground ivy, guarana, guggul (Commiphora mukul), gymnema, gymnestra, hawthorn, heartsease**, hirudin, holy basil, horny goat weed, horse chestnut (Aesculus hippocastanum)*, horseradish (Radicula armoracia), jackfruit, jequirity, jiaogulan, juniper, Kan Jang, kava, kelp, kinetin, kiwi, kudzu, lady's mantle, Lathyrus, lavender, lemongrass, leopard's bane (Arnica montana), licorice (liquorice) (Glycyrrhiza glabra)***, ling zhi, lotus, lovage root, male fern (Dryopteris filix-mas), marjoram, meadowsweet (Spirea/Filipendula ulmaria)**, melatonin, methylsulfonylmethane (MSM), mistletoe, modified citrus pectin, mugwort, mullein, nettle, niacin, nopal, nordihydroguairetic acid (NDGA), northern prickly ash, octacosanol, omega-3 fatty acids, onion, oregano, pagoda tree, pantethine, papain, papaw, papaya, parsley (Petroselinum crispum), passion flower (Passiflora incarnata), PC-SPES, peony, policosanol, polypodium, poplar**, populus, prickly ash (Zanthoxylum spp.)*, propolis, PSK, Pycnogenol® (Pinus pinaster ssp. atlantica), quassia (Picrasma excelsa)*, quercetin, quinine, red clover (Trifolium pratense)*, red yeast rice, rehmannia, reishi (Ganoderma lucidum), resveratrol, rhubarb, Roman chamomile, rose hip, rosemary, rue, rutin, safflower, sage, sarsaparilla**, sassafras, savory, saw palmetto (Serenoa repens), schisandra, scotch broom, sea buckthorn, seaweed, selenium, SHA-10, shea, shiitake mushroom (Lentinus edodes), Siberian ginseng (Eleutherococcus senticosus), sorrel, southern prickly ash, soy***, Spanish bayonet (Yucca spp.), spirulina, St. John's wort, star anise, stinging nettle, strawberry, sweet birch**, sweet clover (Melilotus spp.)*, sweet marjoram, sweet woodruff, tamanu, tamarind, tarragon, taurine, tea, thyme, tonka bean, turmeric (Curcuma longa), usnea, vanilla, verbena, vitamin A, vitamin C***, vitamin E***, wasabi, watercress (Nasturtium officinale), wheatgrass, wild carrot, wild lettuce, willow, willow bark (Salix spp.)**, wintergreen**, yarrow, yew, yohimbe.
Possible pro-coagulant herbs and supplements (based on evidence from basic science, animal study, human case reports/trials, expert opinion, or anecdote)
Abuta, acerola, aconite, African wild potato, agrimony, alfalfa, annatto, apricot, arnica, astragalus, bael, bilberry, black haw, blessed thistle, cat's claw, chlorella, coenzyme Q10, cordyceps, DHEA (dehydroepiandrosterone), dong quai, ginseng, goldenrod, goldenseal, guggul, horsetail, jequirity, jiaogulan, lime, melatonin (multiple cases of prothrombin time (PT) reductions in patients on warfarin, some with minor bleeding possibly due to warfarin), milk thistle, mistletoe, myrcia, nopal, Panax ginseng (may decrease anticoagulant effect of warfarin), psyllium, raspberry, rhubarb, sage, scotch broom, shepherd's purse, skunk cabbage, stinging nettle, tamanu, tea, white oak, white water lily, yarrow.
Vitamin K-rich foods or herbs that may decrease anticoagulant effects of warfarin (Coumadin®) (based on evidence from basic science, animal study, human case reports/trials, expert opinion, or anecdote)
Beet greens, Bolthouse® Bom Dia Acai Berry With Blueberry Juice, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, collard greens, dandelion greens, endive, green pepper, kale, mustard greens, okra, red leaf lettuce, sauerkraut, spinach, spring onions, Swiss chard, turnip greens, white cabbage.
NOTE: Because passionflower, hydroalcoholic extracts, juniper, and Verbena officinalis supply variable quantities of vitamin K, they may lessen the effect of oral anticoagulant therapy.
NOTE: This is not an all-inclusive list.
* Agents with coumarin constituents.
** Agents with salicylate constituents.
*** Agents that inhibit platelets.

Copyright © 2012 Natural Standard. All Rights Reserved.

Practically only the addition of one agent increased bleeding: blood in stool, blood in mucous of the nose, and much more liquid blood (taking glucose readings) - and that's 1 innocent 81mg baby aspirin.

But that's only me, beware.

[Dorian Grey]

I've taken many blood thinning supplements over the years, yet I've never had a problem with bruising, bleeding (gums etc) and even my shaving nicks stop promptly.

My girlfriend on the other hand takes almost no supplements at all, but she does take moderate amounts of aspirin for her headaches. She bruises horribly with the slightest bump and says her shaving nicks hemorrhage for 5 to 10 minutes and she must hold pressure with a tissue on them to make them stop.

Surgical procedures aside, I thing the whole bleeding promoting supplements kerfuffle is substantially overblown. Plavix and other prescription thinners are now prescribed so frequently it seems like everyone will be on them eventually if you live long enough. If the big guns thinners are so safe and good for so many people, I should think the minor thinning effect of most supplements in this category might also be considered as helpful more often than not so long as you are not at substantial risk for a serious GI bleed.

I've noticed anti-supplement propaganda has increased sharply over the last year or so and the bleeding risk is one of the favorite talking points. I'm a 57 year old male and I could use some moderate thinning so I'm not sweating my vitamin-E a bit. It may just save my life! Concern over mixing them with prescription thinners may be a valid point but I just say NO to prescription meds.

[Iuvenale]

I take 100+ supplements and I definitely have increased bleeding time. I don't have any extreme symptoms like petechiae. I suppose it may help me avoid heart disease, although I just hope I don't get in a car accident! My personal theory is that the high incidence of clotting issues and heart disease in modern culture might be caused by not eating "wild plants" (i.e., herbs), most of which seem to prolong bleeding time. Domestic vegetables have had bitter-tasting compounds (alkaloids) bred out of them. If our bodies evolved in times when people ate large quantities of wild plants, then not eating them will cause an unnatural prothrombosis state. My theory, anyway...

 

[Caravaggio]

Supplements that affect bleeding/arteries:

 

• Echinacea (Echinacea angustifolia, Echinacea purpurea, and Echinacea pallida) - Echinacea significantly reduced plasma concentrations of S-warfarin, but did not significantly affect warfarin pharmacodynamics and platelet aggregation in healthy subjects.
• Ephedra (Ephedra sinica, Ephedra equisetina, and Ephedra intermedia var. tibetica) - Ephedra may affect cardiovascular function and vasoconstriction, and, in some cases, vasospasm of coronary and cerebral arteries may cause myocardial infarction and thrombotic stroke.
• Garlic (Allium sativum) - Garlic inhibits platelet aggregation in vivo in a dose-dependent fashion. The effect of one of its constituents, ajoene, appears to be irreversible and may potentiate the effect of other platelet inhibitors such as prostacyclin, forskolin, indomethacin, and dipyridamole.
• Ginger (Zingiber officinale) - In an in vitro study, gingerols and related analogues inhibited arachidonic acid-induced human platelet serotonin release and aggregation, with a potency similar to that of aspirin.
• Ginkgo (Ginkgo biloba) - Ginkgo appears to alter vasoregulation, act as an antioxidant, modulate neurotransmitter and receptor activity and inhibit platelet-activating factor (PAF).
• Ginseng (Panax ginseng, Panax quinquefolius) - There is concern about ginseng’s effect on hemostasis. One early study suggested that the antiplatelet activity of panaxynol, a constituent of ginseng, may be irreversible in humans. Other studies found that ginseng extract and ginsenosides inhibit platelet aggregation in vitro, and prolong both thrombin time and activated partial thromboplastin time in in vivo animal models.
• Green Tea (Camellia sinensis) - In an early in vitro and in vivo study, both green tea and EGCG significantly prolonged mouse tail bleeding time in conscious mice. They inhibited adenosine diphosphate- and collagen-induced rat platelet aggregation in a dose-dependent manner.
• Kava (Piper methysticum) - In an in vitro investigation, a kava compound (+)-kavain suppressed the aggregation of human platelets. A pilot survey of extensive usage of kava showed that kava users were more likely to complain of poor health and had increased red-cell volume and decreased platelet volume.
• Saw palmetto (Serenoa repens) - Platelet function was not affected by the administration of saw palmetto in a clinical study, and two case reports provided little evidence to implicate saw palmetto as a cause of bleeding. In a patient undergoing a craniotomy, however, saw palmetto was associated with excessive surgical bleeding that required termination of the procedure. This complication was attributed to saw palmetto’s anti-inflammatory effects, specifically the inhibition of cyclooxygenase and subsequent platelet dysfunction.
• St John’s Wort (Hypericum perforatum) - The anticoagulant effect of warfarin, a substrate of the 2C9 isoform, was reduced in seven reported cases.
• Boldo (Peumus boldus)
• Danshen (Salvia miltiorrhiza)
• Dong quai (Angelica sinensis)
• Papaya (Carica papaya)
• Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10) - Treatment with CoQ10 did not affect the absorption and distribution of the S- and R-enantiomers of warfarin but increased total serum clearance of both R- and S-warfarin.
• Glucosamine and Chondroitin Sulfate - In a published report from the FDA MedWatch database, there were 20 reports of glucosamine or glucosamine-chondroitin sulfate use with warfarin. Coagulation was altered as manifested by increased INR or increased bleeding or bruising.
• Fish Oil (EPA and DHA) - In vivo studies show that omega-3 fatty acids decreased platelet aggregation but did not influence bleeding time. In a clinical study, the inhibition of platelet aggregation by omega-3 fatty acid was gender-specific. EPA was significantly effective in reducing platelet aggregation in males, whereas DHA was not effective compared to the placebo. In females, DHA significantly reduced platelet aggregation but EPA did not.
• Vitamin C
• Vitamin E - Vitamin E intakes are associated with an increased tendency to bleed and in vitro and in vivo studies showed that vitamin E inhibits platelet aggregation. A vitamin E quinone metabolite may be responsible for the effects of vitamin E, and the reduced platelet adhesiveness of vitamin E probably accompanies incorporation by plasma lipoproteins 
• Vitamin K

Commonly Used Dietary Supplements on Coagulation Function during Surgery

Chong-Zhi Wang,* Jonathan Moss, and Chun-Su Yuan

http://europepmc.org...cles/PMC4777343

 

I can personally confirm effects on blood from Ginkgo, Ginseng, Vitamin K, Glucosamine, N-Acetyl-Glucosamine and Vitamin E.

 

My latest added supplements were Glucosamine (2-5 g powder), NAG (750 mg capsule) and Vitamin E (all tocopherols + tocotrienols, 2x 274 mg capsules).

 

I guess that's what caused the bloody ejection every morning from my throat.

[Jiminy Glick]

You know what they say though, you don't want your blood too thick.

[Iuvenale]

Bleeding issues http://www.fullerton...nteractions.pdf

The following increase bleeding:

Garlic

Ginger

Gingko

Ginseng

Bromelain

Danshen

Don Quai

Fenugreek

Feverfew

Fish Oil

Gamma Linoleic Acid

Papain

Vitamin e

 

Agents That May Increase Risk of Bleeding or Clotting

 

Chamomile

Cranberry

Garlic

Ginkgo

Grapefruit

Lycium

Red clover,

St. John's wort 

 

Agents That May Increase Risk of Bleeding or Clotting

 

Agents reported to cause clinically significant bleeding in case report(s)

Garlic (Allium sativum), ginger, Ginkgo biloba,saw palmetto (Serenoa repens).

Agents that may increase risk of bleeding (based on evidence from basic science, animal study, human case reports/trials, expert opinion, or anecdote)

Acacia, acerola, aconite, agrimony, alfalfa (Medicago sativa)*, aloe, alpha-linolenic acid, alpinia, American ginseng (Panax quinquifolius), American pawpaw, Andrographis paniculata Nees, angelica (Angelica archangelica)*, angel's trumpet, anise (Pimpinella anisum)*, aniseed, annatto, aortic acid, arabinogalactan, arginine (L-arginine), aristolochia, arnica (Arnica montana), asafetida (Ferula asafetida)*, ashwagandha (Withania somnifera L.), aspen bark**, astragalus,avocado (Persea americana), babassu, banaba, barley, Bear's garlic, Bellis perennis,beta-sitosterol, bilberry (Vaccinium myrtillus), birch (Betula barosma)**, black cohosh (Cimifuga racemosblack currant,

 (Fucus vesiculosis), blessed thistle, bogbean (Menyanthes trifoliata), boldo (Peumus boldus), borage seed oil, breviscapine, bromelain (Anas comosus), bupleurum, burdock (Arctium lappa), calamus, calendula, capsicum, cat's claw (Uncaria tomentosa), celery (Apium graveolens)*, chamomile (Matricaria recutita)*, chaparral (Larrea tridentate (DC) Coville, Larrea divaricata Cav.), chia, chlorella, chondroitin sulfate, cinnamon*, clove (Eugenia aromatica), codonopsis, coenzyme Q10, coleus (Coleus forskohlii), coltsfoot, cordyceps (Cordyceps sinensis), cowhage, cranberry, daisy, dandelion (Taraxacum officinale)*, danshen (Salvia miltiorrhiza), Datura wrightii, desert parsley, devil's claw (Harpagophytum procumbens),DHEA, diallyl trisulfide, dong quai (Angelica sinensis), echistatin, elder, EPA(eicosapentaenoic acid), evening primrose oil(Oenothera biennis)***, fennel (Foeniculum vulgare Mill.), fenugreek (Trigonella foenum-graecum)*, feverfew (Tanacetum parthenium)***, fig (Ficus carica), fisetin, fish oil***, flavonoids, flaxseed/flax powder (not a concern with flaxseed oil), forskolin, fucus,gamma-linolenic acid, gamma-oryzanol,Ganoderma japonicum, garlic (Allium sativum)***, genistein, German chamomile,ginger (Zingiber officinalis)***, ginkgo (Ginkgo biloba)***, ginseng (Panax spp.)***, globe artichoke (Cynara scolymus L.), goldenseal (Hydrastis canadensis L.), grape seed (Vitis vinifera), grapefruit juice, green tea (Camellia sinensis), ground ivy, guarana, guggul(Commiphora mukul), gymnema, gymnestra,hawthorn, heartsease**, hirudin, holy basil,horny goat weed, horse chestnut (Aesculus hippocastanum)*, horseradish (Radicula armoracia), jackfruit, jequirity, jiaogulan, juniperKan Jang, kava, kelp, kinetin, kiwi, kudzu, lady's mantle, Lathyrus, lavender, lemongrass, leopard's bane (Arnica montana), licorice(liquorice) (Glycyrrhiza glabra)***, ling zhi, lotus, lovage root, male fern (Dryopteris filix-mas), marjoram, meadowsweet (Spirea/Filipendula ulmaria)**, melatonin,methylsulfonylmethane (MSM), mistletoe, modified citrus pectin, mugwort, mullein, nettle,niacin, nopal, nordihydroguairetic acid (NDGA), northern prickly ash, octacosanol, omega-3 fatty acids, onion, oregano, pagoda tree,pantethine, papain, papaw, papaya, parsley (Petroselinum crispum), passion flower (Passiflora incarnata), PC-SPES, peony, policosanol, polypodium, poplar**, populus, prickly ash (Zanthoxylum spp.)*, propolis, PSK, Pycnogenol® (Pinus pinaster ssp. atlantica), quassia (Picrasma excelsa)*, quercetin, quinine, red clover (Trifolium pratense)*, red yeast rice, rehmannia, reishi (Ganoderma lucidum), resveratrol, rhubarb, Roman chamomile, rose hip, rosemary, rue, rutin, safflower, sage, sarsaparilla**, sassafras, savory, saw palmetto (Serenoa repens), schisandra, scotch broom, sea buckthorn, seaweed, selenium, SHA-10, shea, shiitake mushroom (Lentinus edodes), Siberian ginseng(Eleutherococcus senticosus), sorrel, southern prickly ash, soy***, Spanish bayonet (Yuccaspp.), spirulina, St. John's wort, star anise,stinging nettle, strawberry, sweet birch**, sweet clover (Melilotus spp.)*, sweet marjoram, sweet woodruff, tamanu, tamarind, tarragon, taurine,tea, thyme, tonka bean, turmeric (Curcuma longa), usnea, vanilla, verbena, vitamin A,vitamin C***, vitamin E***, wasabi, watercress (Nasturtium officinale), wheatgrass, wild carrot, wild lettuce, willow, willow bark (Salix spp.)**, wintergreen**, yarrow, yew, yohimbe

 

Possible pro-coagulant herbs and supplements (based on evidence from basic science, animal study, human case reports/trials, expert opinion, or anecdote)

Abuta, acerola, aconite, African wild potato, agrimony, alfalfa, annatto, apricot, arnica, astragalus, bael, bilberry, black haw, blessed thistle, cat's claw, chlorella, coenzyme Q10, cordyceps, DHEA (dehydroepiandrosterone), dong quai, ginseng, goldenrod, goldenseal, guggul, horsetail, jequirity, jiaogulan, lime, melatonin (multiple cases of prothrombin time (PT) reductions in patients on warfarin, some with minor bleeding possibly due to warfarin), milk thistle, mistletoe, myrcia, nopal, Panax ginseng (may decrease anticoagulant effect of warfarin), psyllium, raspberry, rhubarb, sage, scotch broom, shepherd's purse, skunk cabbage, stinging nettle, tamanu, tea, white oak, white water lily, yarrow.

 

Herbs and supplements that might slow blood clotting

Turmeric might slow blood clotting. Taking turmeric along with herbs that also slow clotting might increase the chances of bruising and bleeding. These herbs include angelica, clove, danshen, garlic, ginger, ginkgo, Panax ginseng, red clover, willow, and others.

 

[Dorian Grey]

It would be nice if researchers could provide a scale relative to perhaps aspirin as a guide to just how substantial the thinning effect of a given supplement was.  

 

I bet the thinning effect of many of these supps is minimal compared to OTC medications & prescription thinners.  

 

Some perspective on relative risk is needed.  

[Caravaggio]

I think I falsely claimed Glucosamine and Vitamin E to cause the bleeding from my throat because it didn't stop after ceasing them.

 

But I suspect another supplement that I introduced again in a high dose: L-Lysine 3 g daily.

 

Lysine may increase the risk of bleeding and therefore should be used with caution by people with bleeding disorders.

https://www.rexall.c...iew/3787/Lysine

 

It seems to make sense because Tranexamic acid, a lysine analogue and medication to stop bleeding is involved in fibrin degradation.

 

"Lysteda (tranexamic acid) Package Insert"

 

Tranexamic acid is a synthetic lysine amino acid derivative, which diminishes the dissolution of

hemostatic fibrin by plasmin. In the presence of tranexamic acid, the lysine receptor binding sites of

plasmin for fibrin are occupied, preventing binding to fibrin monomers, thus preserving and stabilizing

fibrin’s matrix structure.

https://www.accessda...2430s004lbl.pdf

 

So does it work by blocking the Lysine from binding to the receptors? If yes than this would explain why more Lysine would cause a higher degradation of fibrin and therefore cause bleeding.

[Believer]

Vitamin K in of itself appears to both contribute to blood clotting and blood thining.

For example after supplementing vitamin K in high dosages alone I now can get nose blood when blowing my nose, my wounds freuquently open up and the blood runs for a while. This was never an issue before supplementing.

[NotADoc]

I have been doing a lot of very in depth reading and digging into this topic for several years now. I first discovered back about 10 years ago that I could no longer take Niacin or any kind of Vitamin E ( took huge doses of them with no problems for 30 years), with out causing massive bleeding hemorrhoid issues.

 

More recently while trying everything that has been reported to help with rheumatoid arthritis (my current battle), I have found the hard way, that if you are a borderline bleeder for any reason, just about everything out there that is anti-inflammatory in anyway, anything that is an anti-oxidant (the better it is as an antioxidant, the more of a bleeding risk it may be), can increase your bleeding risk, and some of these compounds are two edged swords, they can increase and decrease the risk at the same time making things even more confusing.

 

For instance I have used large amounts (2 tablespoons a day) of collagen hydrolysate (Gelatin) to restore and repair my skin that was devastated by a 35% weight loss in 12 weeks caused by runaway hyperthyroidism several years ago (virus got me, thyroid is OK now), and caused by long term high doses of Prednisone used to save my life and get me back to health. My skin was so soft you could nearly rip my skin off 1/4" deep with what would have, in the past not done any damage at all like running into something.

 

But I recently discovered that Glucosamine and Chondroitin are very, very mild blood thinners and they are a big part of what Collagen is made up of. So while I was restoring the thickness, and toughness of my skin, I was adding a very mild blood thinning issue to the mix.

 

One possible issue we face is the additive effects of taking many of these supplements at the same time. I can not take all the supplements I want to take at the doses I want to take due to major real bleeding risks. I have recently discovered that I can take more of them by increasing my K-1 (not K-2, or K, but pure K-1) from 100mcg to 2000 mcg. And with the higher K-1, if I do bleed, I clot way faster. I read that Strawberries are high in K-1 and in salicilates (know blood thinner in foods.... aspirin and Doans are Salicilates!! and eat a lot of Strawberry preserves with no problem!!)

 

I have found the hard way that K-2 increases by bleeding risk significantly. I simply can not take K-2. I might add that I am now convinced that part of my Rheumatoid arthritis flares are worse when/because of the capillaries leaking blood, due to over use of Prednisone, and Ibuprofen 5 years ago for the pain, and the many other pain killers and anti-oxidants and anti-inflammation herbal products. I can not take Allicin extract from garlic with out bleeding 1-2 days later.

 

Also we need to distinguish between the words we use, blood thinning factors, clotting and anti-clotting factors (how long we bleed), and skin, and tissue toughness, resistance to tearing and thus bleeding in the first place, and the strength or toughness of capillaries, that can slowly leak blood into joints and muscles and tissues where it does not belong, and where it can cause inflammation (iron in hemoglobin is free radical initiator, catalyst we called a fenton's reagent in chemistry).

 

I know from my own experience that just about any anti-inflammatory and anti-oxidant compound we know of has some kind of increased bleeding risk. And now I have started to realize that food ingredients, Kale with its K-1, Strawberries for example  fit into this puzzle mix. The question then is how do we keep them in balance.

 

For each person, and time in their life, and medical/health status the answer to this question of can I take this or that safely, regarding risk of bleeding, or having a blood clot/stroke will be different!!!

 

In answer to some of the posts before me, I now consider L-Lysine, MSM, Gotu-Kola, Yucca root, Vitamin C,  Prednisone, Grape-seed extract, PQQ, Allicin/Garlic, Chondroitin sulfate, (and the much longer, more complete  lists below look mostly right to me) to be part of the problem, some way more than others. But now days with many us using many of these at the same time, the additive risk is unknown, there fore it becomes an experimental, iterative process of finding out what we can and can use. In case my bleeding (or not bleeding) hemorrhoids are the tool I use and used to make the borderline decision, and any sign of or lack of any Hematomas (Little red spots on the skin, a sign of leaking capillaries), or bleeding under the skin, and easy bruising just graising up against something.

 

To add to the complexity. I doubt Prednisone is a blood thinner, but it is known to thin out the cell walls, I have experienced it first hand, it depletes the collagen in our skin making bleeding and bruising easier to start. Some of them are way more potent than others. Many listed in the lists here are only an issue if you are already easily bruised and borderline at risk.

 

Like I said I took massive doses of Niacin, and E for 30 years, so much so that I had total remission of Rheumatoid Arthritis (in combination with about 20 other supplements) before it and hyperthyroidism and lung infection all took me down and nearly killed me 5 years ago. Now I just take one  RDA dose of either and I bleed 1-2 days later....

 

I also want to add that I found Vitamin C to be a 2 edged sword for me right now. I need it to help repair and replace collagen and repair leaky capillaries but it thins my blood :(

 

Lastly, I am convinced that all sorts of immune system ailments and allergies have leaking capillaries as the initial cause, and the damage/leaking is caused by too many things that we take that damage them (list #2 ?) and too few intakes that repair them. I just learned that Rutin is great at repairing them. The leaking is two way, both directions. They are a supper delicate osmotic membrane, that lets the right stuff pass and rejects the wrong stuff, unless they are damaged and weakened. Allergens and viruses and the wrong stuff wreaks havoc with our immune systems if they get past the barrier into our blood. Think leaky gut!!!! And Iron from blood does not belong in our muscles and joints.

 

Lastly I have read that the flora in our digestive tracks produce compounds (K-1, K-2 ???, I forget) that can affect our bruising and clotting...bleeding..And what we eat can change that.

 

Also I can no longer take Ibuprofen with out bleeding a day later. I use to be able to take it 3 -4 times a day for months. Also on my no no list is fish oils and similar oils, like Krill oil. This is not a complete list of what I can not currently tolerate.

 

 

Edited by NotADoc, 29 April 2018 - 07:32 PM.

[NotADoc]

Vitamin K in of itself appears to both contribute to blood clotting and blood thining.

For example after supplementing vitamin K in high dosages alone I now can get nose blood when blowing my nose, my wounds freuquently open up and the blood runs for a while. This was never an issue before supplementing.

 

K-1 is not a blood thinner, it is clotting agent. I have determined that in my case K-1 reduces my bleeding risk, in  major way,  while K-2 is a real blood thinner, it makes me bleed while K-1 does the opposite. There is way too little info on the difference on the internet so far, and most of the published works were not looking at the K-2 bleeding factor, but if you look at what they say K-2 does, it does similar things to what many of the blood thinners do. And frankly blood thinner is a poor phrase for the topic IMHO. I suspect there are several possible actions these compounds can be taking that increase the "risk of bleeding and easy bruising" beyond just "blood thinning". There must be a leak, and damage for bleeding to occur.
 

[NotADoc]

I think I falsely claimed Glucosamine and Vitamin E to cause the bleeding from my throat because it didn't stop after ceasing them.

 

But I suspect another supplement that I introduced again in a high dose: L-Lysine 3 g daily.

 

https://www.rexall.c...iew/3787/Lysine

 

It seems to make sense because Tranexamic acid, a lysine analogue and medication to stop bleeding is involved in fibrin degradation.

 

https://www.accessda...2430s004lbl.pdf

 

So does it work by blocking the Lysine from binding to the receptors? If yes than this would explain why more Lysine would cause a higher degradation of fibrin and therefore cause bleeding.

 

No doubt it was all three. But mostly the E in my experience, and maybe the Lysine. I have never had a problem with Glucosamine. But I recently added PQQ and L-Lysine to my regime and had a huge change in bleeding in under 48 hours, from none to a lot. Even while taking 2000 mcg of K-1. I am now going to try and figure out if it was L-Lysine or PQQ that tripped the bleed wire for me. I suspect the PQQ was the most guilty, but time will tell, as I had tried it before 2 years ago for 1-2 days and gave up using it for bleeding....IIRC. I was already taking L-Lysine 500 mg for a week or two with no problem, and I am super sensitive.... FWIW, I looking for ways to counteract the bleeding risk, so I can safely take some of these. I already upped my K-1 dose 20X a few weeks ago, that was huge help. Taking Rutin 500 mg, 3 times a day to help heal and strengthen the capillaries but that may take months. I am looking for other agents to counter the blood thinning effects if anyone knows any others, other than Collagen, K-1, Rutin.
 

[Heisok]

NotADoc, I used quotes to indicate a similar experience to you. I think that you are correct especially in the portion in red. Right now, with my current regimen of things which might effect getting subcutaneous bleeding, adding a tablespoon of Cacao powder is timely with getting worse. (It also effects the hemorrhoid bleeding) My skin also seems to tear easier, but I assumed it was aging. Both the hematoma's, and ski tearing are a result of some sort of  tiny impact or very minor bump which is not noticable. (My point is that they do not seem to be spontaneous.)  I think that if I dropped some other things from my daily use, the Cacao might not have an effect. Baby aspirin causes problems for me no matter the regimen.

 

I have taken Rutin in a dose of 100 mg for awhile, but that is much lower than you take.

 

"Also we need to distinguish between the words we use, blood thinning factors, clotting and anti-clotting factors (how long we bleed), and skin, and tissue toughness, resistance to tearing and thus bleeding in the first place, and the strength or toughness of capillaries"

 

"But now days with many us using many of these at the same time, the additive risk is unknown, there fore it becomes an experimental, iterative process of finding out what we can and can use. In case my bleeding (or not bleeding) hemorrhoids are the tool I use and used to make the borderline decision, and any sign of or lack of any Hematomas (Little red spots on the skin, a sign of leaking capillaries), or bleeding under the skin, and easy bruising just graising up against something.

[NotADoc]

Heisok, I read somewhere earlier today, that chocolate is a mild blood thinner. I started adding Hydrolysate Collagen (Dry Lakes Gelatin), a heaping table spoon to my oatmeal each morning, about 18 months ago. Now It now takes a serious hit to my skin, like an arm, with a real knife or big F-Hammer to bruise or cut the skin on my arms now. So I have made enormous progress there using that type of collagen. That brand, type collagen (gelatin) is made by turning cow hide into a water soluble power, it is mostly collagen protein. Think Leather, LOL. Sounds like that would help you a lot right now. I too had serious, scary subcutaneous bleeding as well, super thin skin, side effect of too much Prednisone for way too long, used after a massive loss of weight, and muscle loss, and skin depth loss due to the hyperthyroidism run amok. The skin bleeding did not start till months after heavy steroid use. The bleeding hemorrhoids have come and gone, for 10 years. But I think I may be close to solving it now.

NotADoc, I used quotes to indicate a similar experience to you. I think that you are correct especially in the portion in red. Right now, with my current regimen of things which might effect getting subcutaneous bleeding, adding a tablespoon of Cacao powder is timely with getting worse. (It also effects the hemorrhoid bleeding) My skin also seems to tear easier, but I assumed it was aging. Both the hematoma's, and ski tearing are a result of some sort of  tiny impact or very minor bump which is not noticable. (My point is that they do not seem to be spontaneous.)  I think that if I dropped some other things from my daily use, the Cacao might not have an effect. Baby aspirin causes problems for me no matter the regimen.

 

I have taken Rutin in a dose of 100 mg for awhile, but that is much lower than you take.

 

"Also we need to distinguish between the words we use, blood thinning factors, clotting and anti-clotting factors (how long we bleed), and skin, and tissue toughness, resistance to tearing and thus bleeding in the first place, and the strength or toughness of capillaries"

 

"But now days with many us using many of these at the same time, the additive risk is unknown, there fore it becomes an experimental, iterative process of finding out what we can and can use. In case my bleeding (or not bleeding) hemorrhoids are the tool I use and used to make the borderline decision, and any sign of or lack of any Hematomas (Little red spots on the skin, a sign of leaking capillaries), or bleeding under the skin, and easy bruising just graising up against something.

 

Edited by NotADoc, 30 April 2018 - 12:50 AM.

[osris]

How long before surgery should one stop taking blood thinners?

I've always heard to stop a week before. Is a week really necessary?

 

Yes, a week is right. See:

 

"'Vitamins, herbal supplements, and over-the-counter medications should be stopped seven days prior to the surgery because it takes that long for them to get out of your system,' Doyle Petrongolo says. Your doctor will determine when you can restart them."

 

https://www.health.h...dical-procedure