109 replies to this topic

[platypus]

I can respect this. I do encourage you to take the time, as you said, to study the aforementioned data and see why they comprise one of the best cases for the resurrection. As I mentioned briefly in another post, The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Dr. Gary Habermas is an excellent, comprehensive resource to start with, as it also explains the nature of the scholarly credence behind the "facts."

Then there's the case against the resurrection of Christ:

http://www.infidels....on/lecture.html

edit: the above article should demonstrate to any unbiased reader that claims saying that the resurrection of Jesus is a proven historical fact are ludicrous.

Edited by platypus, 11 April 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[NeuroGuy]

I can respect this. I do encourage you to take the time, as you said, to study the aforementioned data and see why they comprise one of the best cases for the resurrection. As I mentioned briefly in another post, The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Dr. Gary Habermas is an excellent, comprehensive resource to start with, as it also explains the nature of the scholarly credence behind the "facts."

Then there's the case against the resurrection of Christ:

http://www.infidels....on/lecture.html

edit: the above article should demonstrate to any unbiased reader that claims saying that the resurrection of Jesus is a proven historical fact are ludicrous.

Fifth straw man; at no point in time have I made that claim, nor is that claim included among the academic consensus regarding what facts are known about Jesus. Please stop twisting my words friend.

It’s pretty tough to deny that Jesus existed

Richard Carrier is also one of the few who deny that Jesus existed at all, even though the fact of his existence is considered a closed case by virtually every germane scholar. This is not an ad hominem attack; I'm merely suggesting that Gary Habermas' work is a more accurate representation of what the scholarly consensus is concerning the various known facts, and therefore makes a better resource to begin with (even if you don't accept the resurrection theory, which is a response to the known facts, not one of the facts themselves).

Edited by NeuroGuy, 11 April 2013 - 12:13 PM.

[maxwatt]

"2nd-coming-of-jesus-how-would-he-be-accepted"

A little predicate calculus:

If A then B
Not A
Therefore whether B or not B, the statement (If A then B) is true.

So if there is no second coming, (as if there were even a first coming)
then whatever conclusion you wish to argue for, the statement is true,

So to argue about B in any meaningful way, (in the case J's acceptance) one would first have to prove A.
Proving the historical existence of a skinny Jew who was crucified does not prove that he was the son of god. Tnat one could argue about until ... until ... until the second coming? Never mind.

Edited by maxwatt, 11 April 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[platypus]

Fifth straw man; at no point in time have I made that claim, nor is that claim included among the academic consensus regarding what facts are known about Jesus. Please stop twisting my words friend.

I wonder what the facts are as none of the Christian sources or reports derived from them are trustworthy. There are way too many levels of legend.

Edited by platypus, 11 April 2013 - 01:17 PM.

[NeuroGuy]

Proving the historical existence of a skinny Jew who was crucified does not prove that he was the son of god.

Agreed. However, the simple fact of his existence has yet to be used as a case for his being the son of God, which seems to be a recurring misunderstanding.

So to argue about B in any meaningful way, (in the case J's acceptance) one would first have to prove A.

This is entirely true, and it is the reason why the discussion turned toward the resurrection of Jesus in the first place. If A is accepted as reasonably probable (as opposed to "proven," as historical events cannot be decided with absolute certainty) through the analysis of the known facts concerning Jesus' death and the aftermath, then B becomes a meaningful discussion. The problem has been the resistance to accepting what exactly are the "known facts," even though what these facts are, as well as their historical reliability, is largely agreed upon within the academic fields germane to the topic (a group comprised of both atheists and theists, thus mitigating bias). The only real response to this has been misrepresentations of the argument, as well as misrepresentations of the facts.

But, as Lister pointed out, it is starting to become best to assign the facts discussion to its own thread, and to simply move forward on this topic in theory only, with the assumption of A.

Edited by NeuroGuy, 11 April 2013 - 01:41 PM.

[maxwatt]

Well then, were Jesus to return in a Muslim land, he would be killed as a heretic.

[shadowhawk]

I can respect this. I do encourage you to take the time, as you said, to study the aforementioned data and see why they comprise one of the best cases for the resurrection. As I mentioned briefly in another post, The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Dr. Gary Habermas is an excellent, comprehensive resource to start with, as it also explains the nature of the scholarly credence behind the "facts."

Then there's the case against the resurrection of Christ:

http://www.infidels....on/lecture.html

edit: the above article should demonstrate to any unbiased reader that claims saying that the resurrection of Jesus is a proven historical fact are ludicrous.

Since a book by Carrier is referenced as evidence against the resurrection, lets see how he does when up against opposition. I will also post this in the thread “What is the evidence for the resurrection of Christ?”

Debate one month ago, Carrier VS Craig. March 2013.

[shadowhawk]

Well then, were Jesus to return in a Muslim land, he would be killed as a heretic.

Yes. How about Longecity?

[william7]

When Jesus returns, He'll be accepted as King and conqueror. Those who hate Him and His Father will be destroyed and those who love Him will be rewarded in the Kingdom He will set up on earth (nobody's going to heaven as many falsely teach). The Scriptures are clear on this.

Daniel 2:31-35, 44

³¹ “You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome. ³² This image’s head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs^[a] of bronze, ³³ its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.^{[b] 34} You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. ³⁵ Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

⁴⁴ And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

Revelation 5: 5-10

5 Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. ² And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” ³ But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. ⁴ I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. ⁵ Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
⁶ Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits^[a] of God sent out into all the earth. ⁷ He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. ⁸ And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. ⁹ And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
¹⁰ You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign^[b] on the earth.”

Revelation 19:11-21

¹¹ I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. ¹² His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. ¹³ He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. ¹⁴ The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. ¹⁵ Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”^[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. ¹⁶ On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

king of kings and lord of lords.
¹⁷ And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, ¹⁸ so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
¹⁹ Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. ²⁰ But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. ²¹ The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

[platypus]

When Jesus returns, He'll be accepted as King and conqueror. Those who hate Him and His Father will be destroyed and those who love Him will be rewarded in the Kingdom He will set up on earth (nobody's going to heaven as many falsely teach). The Scriptures are clear on this.

If the scriptures are clear, why don't believers agree? It seems there's nobody that can be contacted in prayer and who could rectify these kinds of disputes :/

[william7]

After all the work I put into you platypus, you're still a doubter? I'll have to work harder this time I guess.

It's the corrupt leadership that twists the teachings to support their agenda. The people are like sheep and follow these twisted teachings. The people need to learn to reason from the scriptures and apply them in their daily life for themselves. Community house churches are the way to go. Abolish all big money making religious organizations.

Edited by william7, 13 April 2013 - 01:33 PM.

[Jakare]

Honestly, Jesus should hurry up, otherwise we are going to reach the Singularity and the escape velocity of immortality. Any further delays and he will render himself redundant.

IMO, waiting for god to provide what we know we are capable to do by ourselves is an attitude that needs to be transcended. And anyway, what has any god to offer once we humans become healthy and enjoy eternal life? How, the hell, the concepts of hell or heaven are going to affect to us then?

I do not share the fatalistic view that without a 2nd visit (2nd requires a 1st anyway, which I doubt) human kind would destroy themselves which seems to underline the whole 2nd visit belief. I have faith in humans.

[platypus]

After all the work I put into you platypus, you're still a doubter? I'll have to work harder this time I guess.

It's the corrupt leadership that twists the teachings to support their agenda. The people are like sheep and follow these twisted teachings. The people need to learn to reason from the scriptures and apply them in their daily life for themselves. Community house churches are the way to go. Abolish all big money making religious organizations.

Why doesn't God tell jews that the messiah has already arrived? Or Mormons that Jesus never actually visited the Americas? Members of both of these groups are in living contact with God in prayer ALL THE TIME. It seems God does not think rectifying such minor details is important. A simpler explanation is that since God does not exist, and therefore there's nobody out there who could transmit information to people in prayer.

Edited by platypus, 13 April 2013 - 03:36 PM.

[william7]

Jakare

otherwise we are going to reach the Singularity and the escape velocity of immortality

If we were to reach the Singularity and attain immortality under present circumstanes, we would become a very evil and destructive people. We would be worse than the Klingons in Star Trek. Man is not currently able to handle the sophisticated technology that's predicted by technologists to occur in the Singularity.

When Jesus Christ returns it's my belief, He'll give us the moral wisdom necessary to safely use sophisticated technical knowledge for peaceful purposes. The Bible pretty much prophesies this will occur. See Micah 4:2-4.

[Jakare]

Jakare

otherwise we are going to reach the Singularity and the escape velocity of immortality

If we were to reach the Singularity and attain immortality under present circumstanes, we would become a very evil and destructive people. We would be worse than the Klingons in Star Trek. Man is not currently able to handle the sophisticated technology that's predicted by technologists to occur in the Singularity.

And I actually think there are some people able to handle them already and the number of such people will grow in a continuous manner.

When Jesus Christ returns it's my belief, He'll give us the moral wisdom necessary to safely use sophisticated technical knowledge for peaceful purposes. The Bible pretty much prophesies this will occur. See Micah 4:2-4.

Because the bible says so?...You can not possibly expect that, for someone who does not believe or share your culture, such statement will be swallowed without some kind of proof outside what, for me, is just a mystic book. Not saying is not well intended...

Moral wisdom?...What is moral? What is wisdom? There are many answers to both questions...all relative to the speaker's point of view. These concepts are, in a way, like delicate flowers. If you grasp them firmly saying "-This IS the TRUTH." Then, when you open your hand the flower is broken, crushed. The concepts must be handle with care, with just to fingers and not too firmly, without too much conviction, for you to be able to appreciate the truths without distorting the concept at the same time.

Let's talk about love now. The Christian way of looking at the relationship of a person with god is an immature form of love where one needs the other (we are not ready or we are sinners), and the other (god) wants to be needed (I will suppose you are quite familiar with Jehova's temperamental, vengative and jealous behavior). In a mature relationship one does not need the other, but still, one choose to stay with the other because 'you love him/her'. Its a free decision not based on necessity. God (if exist) does not want to be needed, wants to be truly loved. I wont accept a god that impose necessities, much less when we are closer than ever before to get rid of such 'limitations'.

I do not know why I get involved in these sort of conversations. I do not really want to talk about it. It is so tiring.

Edited by Jakare, 13 April 2013 - 08:09 PM.

[william7]

Jakare

And I actually think there are some people able to handle them already and the number of such people will grow in a continuous manner.

They talk as if its possible, but most will admit it's a dangerous uncertainty. The risks are too great with level of conflict in the world. Have you watched the Transcendent Man documentary about Ray Kurzweil's life and ideas?

Moral wisdom?...What is moral?

It's knowledge and practice of God's perfect ways and laws and the teachings of His Son, Jesus Christ.

I will suppose you are quite familiar with Jehova's temperamental, vengative and jealous behavior

Yes, I've read some of their literature. You must realize that many of their ideas are seriously wrong. I'm for the abolition of organizations like the Jehovah's Witnesses. Again, people would be more interested in arriving at the truth of the Scriptures if religious teaching were confined to house churches. In the age of the Internet, these organization could make all their literature available for free. Save the trees! Save the environment!

[mikeinnaples]

It's the corrupt leadership that twists the teachings to support their agenda. The people are like sheep and follow these twisted teachings.

Quoting just this specific part of your post because it close to how I feel about religion as a whole. I just take it a step further because I feel that the entire concept of religion and the belief of a supreme being itself applies as well.

[mikeinnaples]

If we were to reach the Singularity and attain immortality under present circumstanes, we would become a very evil and destructive people. We would be worse than the Klingons in Star Trek. Man is not currently able to handle the sophisticated technology that's predicted by technologists to occur in the Singularity.

We are already very capable of evil and not only destructive, but self destructive behavior as well. If anything, enlightenment may come with singularity.

To quote myself....

"Knowledge draws back the curtains of ignorance and allows enlightenment to shine in."

[platypus]

It's knowledge and practice of God's perfect ways and laws and the teachings of His Son, Jesus Christ.

What Church is practicing this? And why the others aren't?

[william7]

platypus

What Church is practicing this? And why the others aren't?

Twelve Tribes is the closest to practicing God's laws. Christ's teachings in the same way as the early church in the book of Acts. They live communally just as the early church did. See Acts 2:44-45; 4:32-35. Their website is at http://twelvetribes.com/

[william7]

mikeinnaples

Quoting just this specific part of your post because it close to how I feel about religion as a whole. I just take it a step further because I feel that the entire concept of religion and the belief of a supreme being itself applies as well.

I'm aware that God exists and that He has outlined a proper form of religious worship that if followed results in many blessings and a longer lifespan. The Twelve Tribes community that I mentioned to platypus is the closet to the truth and having a right form of religious worship. Your major religious organizations are Satanic counterfeits put on earth to create conflict and deceive the people in my opinion.

[platypus]

The Twelve Tribes community that I mentioned to platypus is the closet to the truth and having a right form of religious worship. Your major religious organizations are Satanic counterfeits put on earth to create conflict and deceive the people in my opinion.

So how do you know that TT is closest to the truth and not satanic BS? Did you join them and they told you that or what? :D From a rational perspective viewpoints like yours seem frankly somewhat delusional.

[william7]

platypus

So how do you know that TT is closest to the truth and not satanic BS? Did you join them and they told you that or what? :D From a rational perspective viewpoints like yours seem frankly somewhat delusional.

I lived with the Twelve Tribes for 1 1/2 months in 2007 and visited 5 of their communities during that time. After watching the video below about when their children were seized in 1984, I decided I needed to check them out.

I think you might be getting cranky in your old age platypus. Or you might be brainwashed by that fake Richard Dawkins psuedo-psychiatric BS. Dawkins shows all the signs of being afflicted with the disease of Scientism. Scientism is a disease that holds society back from making real progress.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHBX3QGRGow&list=PLC55A280077318BD5&index=1

[maxwatt]

When the Mahdi. the enlightened one, comes. he will show all non-believers the true path of Allah. No?

[Lister]

Dawkins shows all the signs of being afflicted with the disease of Scientism. Scientism is a disease that holds society back from making real progress.

I would argue that Fundamentalist Religion and Scientism are both limiting factors.

If you cannot entertain the idea that God may or may not exist without being offended then you’re no different than Dawkins. An open mind is the only way forward.

Regardless the topic isn’t “Build up a base, argue if religion is a harm or not, argue as to what constitutes BS… etc” it’s "'2nd coming' of Jesus - How would he be accepted?"

If you want to go off on a tangent about how accurate religious communities are or how all of religion is corrupt then make your own topic!

[shadowhawk]

Dawkins shows all the signs of being afflicted with the disease of Scientism. Scientism is a disease that holds society back from making real progress.

I would argue that Fundamentalist Religion and Scientism are both limiting factors.

If you cannot entertain the idea that God may or may not exist without being offended then you’re no different than Dawkins. An open mind is the only way forward.

Regardless the topic isn’t “Build up a base, argue if religion is a harm or not, argue as to what constitutes BS… etc” it’s "'2nd coming' of Jesus - How would he be accepted?"

If you want to go off on a tangent about how accurate religious communities are or how all of religion is corrupt then make your own topic!

Right on.

[william7]

When the Mahdi. the enlightened one, comes. he will show all non-believers the true path of Allah. No?

No

[platypus]

When the Mahdi. the enlightened one, comes. he will show all non-believers the true path of Allah. No?

No

So why doesn't the god depicted in the Bible and other books communicate anything to the believers? Or if he does, why is it all controversial and full of discrepancies? It really seems as if "talking to god" in prayer is a mirage or at the very least one-sided.

Edited by platypus, 16 April 2013 - 10:38 AM.

[maxwatt]

When the Mahdi. the enlightened one, comes. he will show all non-believers the true path of Allah. No?

No

Yes.


By the way, there are many Hasids in Williamsburg convinced the late Lubavicher Reb Schneerson was the Moshia, the Messiah. Why are they wrong, a billion muslims wrong, and you correct?

Achieve buddha-nature and abandon illusion.

Edited by maxwatt, 16 April 2013 - 03:41 PM.

[william7]

Lister

I would argue that Fundamentalist Religion and Scientism are both limiting factors.

If what you mean by "Fundamentalist Religion" is organized religion that clearly and obviously teaches and practices something different than what the Bible actually says, then I must agree with you. Now if you take fundamentalist to mean anyone who believes in God and sincerely practices what the Bible teaches then we are in sharp disagreement.

If you cannot entertain the idea that God may or may not exist without being offended then you’re no different than Dawkins. An open mind is the only way forward.

Can you see any where in my posts where I've expressed offensiveness or where I'm being offensive? I, however, must argue for what I know to be true and argue against what I know to be false.

If you want to go off on a tangent about how accurate religious communities are or how all of religion is corrupt then make your own topic!

I believe my posts in this thread have only been responsive to others challenges. I initially posted spot on topic as you'll notice. I am now defending my belief in the existence of God and what constitutes correct practice of religion. Are those who say God doesn't exist or say all religion is a false practice off topic too or does off topic only apply to believers? If off topic only applies to believers then I would have to say your reasoning is very unreasonable, arbitrary and capricious.