109 replies to this topic

[mikeinnaples]

When the Mahdi. the enlightened one, comes. he will show all non-believers the true path of Allah. No?

No

So they are wrong and you are right, as simple as that? From the outside looking in, I find that quite amusing.

mikeinnaples

Quoting just this specific part of your post because it close to how I feel about religion as a whole. I just take it a step further because I feel that the entire concept of religion and the belief of a supreme being itself applies as well.

I'm aware that God exists and that He has outlined a proper form of religious worship that if followed results in many blessings and a longer lifespan. The Twelve Tribes community that I mentioned to platypus is the closet to the truth and having a right form of religious worship. Your major religious organizations are Satanic counterfeits put on earth to create conflict and deceive the people in my opinion.

Maybe your beliefs are based off of deception as well. Ever stop to consider that?

[william7]

When the Mahdi. the enlightened one, comes. he will show all non-believers the true path of Allah. No?

No

Yes.


By the way, there are many Hasids in Williamsburg convinced the late Lubavicher Reb Schneerson was the Moshia, the Messiah. Why are they wrong, a billion muslims wrong, and yoiu correct?

From my understanding of Islam, Muhammad, before he became a great prophet, came in contact with a monk and a nun who were traveling through his area and from them he learned about the unholy Roman Empire and how useful religion (false religion) could be for ruling over the masses. I consider Islam to be the same as all the other false religions of the world. Religions are false, in my opinion, when they use religion to support the ruling class, to make money or to gain special privileges in society.

[Lister]

This topic is in response to a growing demand for a place to discuss and debate the accuracy of perceived “Facts” with regards to organized religion. Whether the “facts” are for or against religion it’s clear that there are some here who would like to show off what they’ve got.

So then, how accurate is religion anyways? There are numerous faiths and much the information presented from one religion conflicts with another. There are also many common themes such as the existence of Jesus, the existence of a God or many Gods. Some even argue that all of religion as whole is a lie, a story, a long con designed to steal your money, your freedom and your life.

We started this debate with the second coming of Jesus which “evolved” into a debate about whether Jesus really is the son of God or whether he resurrected from the grave. Did he? Is he Gods son or God themself?

What is really “true” in all of this?

[Lister]

OK I fixed the topic. You may now proceed with your debate!

PS: Sorry Shifter. I tried to remove only the derailing responses but I duno how!

[maxwatt]

When the Mahdi. the enlightened one, comes. he will show all non-believers the true path of Allah. No?

No

Yes.


By the way, there are many Hasids in Williamsburg convinced the late Lubavicher Reb Schneerson was the Moshia, the Messiah. Why are they wrong, a billion muslims wrong, and yoiu correct?

From my understanding of Islam, Muhammad, before he became a great prophet, came in contact with a monk and a nun who were traveling through his area and from them he learned about the unholy Roman Empire and how useful religion (false religion) could be for ruling over the masses. I consider Islam to be the same as all the other false religions of the world. Religions are false, in my opinion, when they use religion to support the ruling class, to make money or to gain special privileges in society.

That sounds like every established religion that ever was.

Then countra-positively, a religion that does not support the ruling class would be valid, or possibly be valid? So many such, that contradict each other. And many religions did not change their dogma as they gained converts among the privileged class, and became establishment religions.
I find this unhelpful as a litmus test.

[daouda]

Well then, were Jesus to return in a Muslim land, he would be killed as a heretic.

Well this is an ignorant statement that probably stems from basic islamophobia

Isa ( Arabic: عيسى, Transliteration: ʿĪsā ), known as Jesus in the New Testament is considered to be a Messenger of God and the Masih (Messiah) in Islam^[1] who was sent to guide the Children of Israel (banī isrā'īl) with a new scripture, the Injīl or Gospel.^[2] The belief in Jesus (and all other messengers of God) is required in Islam, and a requirement of being a Muslim

According to the Quran, Jesus, although appearing to have been crucified, was not killed by crucifixion or by any other means, instead, "God raised him unto Himself". Like all prophets in Islam, Jesus is considered to have been a Muslim (i.e., one who submits to the will of God), as he preached that his followers should adopt the "straight path" as commanded by God

Numerous titles are given to Jesus in the Quran and in Islamic literature, the most common being al-Masīḥ ("the messiah"). Jesus is also, at times, called "Seal of the Israelite Prophets", because, in general Muslim belief, Jesus was the last prophet sent by God to guide the Children of Israel. Jesus is seen in Islam as a precursor to Muhammad, and is believed by Muslims to have foretold the latter's coming.^[6][7]

Muslims believe that Jesus will return to earth near the Day of Judgment to restore justice and to defeat Masih ad-Dajjal ("the false messiah", also known as theAntichrist).

http://en.wikipedia....m#Second_coming


(Im not muslim nor a beleiver of any religion btw, but have live in muslim countries and Islam - as it is praticed by non-salafists which are the overwhelming majority of muslims - is definitely not worse than any other religion)

Edited by daouda, 16 April 2013 - 09:26 PM.

[william7]

When the Mahdi. the enlightened one, comes. he will show all non-believers the true path of Allah. No?

No

Yes.


By the way, there are many Hasids in Williamsburg convinced the late Lubavicher Reb Schneerson was the Moshia, the Messiah. Why are they wrong, a billion muslims wrong, and yoiu correct?

From my understanding of Islam, Muhammad, before he became a great prophet, came in contact with a monk and a nun who were traveling through his area and from them he learned about the unholy Roman Empire and how useful religion (false religion) could be for ruling over the masses. I consider Islam to be the same as all the other false religions of the world. Religions are false, in my opinion, when they use religion to support the ruling class, to make money or to gain special privileges in society.

That sounds like every established religion that ever was.

Then countra-positively, a religion that does not support the ruling class would be valid, or possibly be valid? So many such, that contradict each other. And many religions did not change their dogma as they gained converts among the privileged class, and became establishment religions.
I find this unhelpful as a litmus test.

The early Christian Church in the book of Acts was a small church that lived communally and shared everything they did not support a ruling class or become involved in politics and did not set out to conquer or become rich. They were persecuted by the ruling class in society. The Twelve Tribes - which I mention above - also practices a fairly pure religion much like the early church.

When churches become involved with politics and money making they go astray from Scripture. The unholy Roman Empire decided to adopt the Christian religion and shape it as a tool for gaining support form the masses. They killed off the true adherents of the religion and misconstrues the teachings to suport its agenda. See, for example, http://www.ucg.org/d...s-christianity/ and http://www.ucg.org/h...t-christianity/

[william7]

So they are wrong and you are right, as simple as that? From the outside looking in, I find that quite amusing.

You might not have been blessed by God to see things clearly. Study the Scriptures and pray to God for wisdom and understanding.

Maybe your beliefs are based off of deception as well. Ever stop to consider that?

Sure, I do a self-inventory periodically.

[william7]

So why doesn't the god depicted in the Bible and other books communicate anything to the believers? Or if he does, why is it all controversial and full of discrepancies? It really seems as if "talking to god" in prayer is a mirage or at the very least one-sided.

No, God communicates with sincere believers. You're just unable to understand this because of your unbeliever status.

Like I told mikeinnaples, you need to pray to God for wisdom and understanding so you can see clearly. You don't want to be blind all your life do you?

[Lister]

So why doesn't the god depicted in the Bible and other books communicate anything to the believers? Or if he does, why is it all controversial and full of discrepancies? It really seems as if "talking to god" in prayer is a mirage or at the very least one-sided.

No, God communicates with sincere believers. You're just unable to understand this because of your unbeliever status.

Like I told mikeinnaples, you need to pray to God for wisdom and understanding so you can see clearly. You don't want to be blind all your life do you?

This I have trouble with. Being that I was a very deep Christian throughout my childhood and well into my teens I can say that the way “God communicates” can be interpreted many, many ways after the fact.

For example, when I was a pretty strong Christian during church I would feel a very strong deep passion or love or something run through me through specific moments during the service. I went to a Christian camp where we had huge bonfires with 50 or so kids and lots of staff on hand. It was so moving that it would bring some of us to tears. What really shook me though is that I started to notice the exact same goose bump inducing feeling from non-religious events. When watching really passionate movies for example in a very crowded theatre I would feel that same deep feeling at deeply emotional points in the movie.

I don’t think we’ll know any of this for certain for a long time, but I truly feel now that as we are social animals we are designed to experience group emotions. So during a very moving group event such as a movie or a church service we all “feel” as one and that amplifies the feeling. The Holy Ghost isn’t some group hallucination but it is a natural socially emotional effect which I feel is unrelated to any supernatural cause.

As to the specific feelings I felt while alone I’ve felt those exact same feelings when deep in meditation. I think prayer combined with our longing to be “one with the creator” causes our brains to slip into a meditative or Theta state. When in this state it’s easy for me to see where someone may speak in tongues, hear the voice of God and feeling his presence even if all of that is complete nonsense. Deep meditation can have a very powerful effect on the brain.

My mom used to say that I seemed to be purified when I came back from those camps and today I can get the same sort of purification effect from meditation.

If anything truly bugs me about religious people it’s how much they underestimate humans and consciousness.

FYI William, by Fundamentalist Religious people I mean those who refuse point blank to discuss anything outside of their cohesive sphere of belief. They even go to the extent of trying to squash out anything that doesn’t fit in with their belief system. Richard Dawkins is always pushing Religion as being a harm and trying to exclude it at all costs. A Fundamentalist Religious person in my books would do the same about all other religions as well as non-religions. Ultimately both sides are excluding anything but their own world view. They are the same.

It’s fine to practice a closed belief system but it will not help further society. It will exclude you from social growth as growth involves change and change is not welcome in a Fundamentalist Belief System (like Dawkins or New Earth Creationists / Many Evangelicals).

[mikeinnaples]

You might not have been blessed by God to see things clearly. Study the Scriptures and pray to God for wisdom and understanding.

So you are the chosen of your creator? Your creator only chooses to 'bless' some people with clear vision while dooming others to burn eternally in a perpetually burning prison because he 'blessed' them with rationality?

Remind me to stay away from the grape kool-aid at this party.

So why doesn't the god depicted in the Bible and other books communicate anything to the believers? Or if he does, why is it all controversial and full of discrepancies? It really seems as if "talking to god" in prayer is a mirage or at the very least one-sided.

No, God communicates with sincere believers. You're just unable to understand this because of your unbeliever status.

Like I told mikeinnaples, you need to pray to God for wisdom and understanding so you can see clearly. You don't want to be blind all your life do you?

I was a sincere and true believer for much of my life. God never once communicated with me despite my prayer and passion.

It was this that opened up my eyes. Unfortunately, you are still blind with delusion.

[william7]

For example, when I was a pretty strong Christian during church I would feel a very strong deep passion or love or something run through me through specific moments during the service. I went to a Christian camp where we had huge bonfires with 50 or so kids and lots of staff on hand. It was so moving that it would bring some of us to tears. What really shook me though is that I started to notice the exact same goose bump inducing feeling from non-religious events. When watching really passionate movies for example in a very crowded theatre I would feel that same deep feeling at deeply emotional points in the movie.

I'm convince that God's Holy Spirit rarely, if ever, works on people in large groups as a part of a religious services in Catholic/Protestant churches. However, some individuals who are in these type of churches who are experiencing the Holy Spirit are being directed out of those churches and practices. You also must consider that just as God has a Spirit He uses to influence people so does Satan have a spirit he uses on people. What Satan does is use his spirit power to support false religion. A good example of what I'm talking about is Easter. Satan's spirit will work to support Easter practices. In the video about this below notice how deceptive Satan can be.

http://youtu.be/4Fsy9AdlZQE

As to the specific feelings I felt while alone I’ve felt those exact same feelings when deep in meditation. I think prayer combined with our longing to be “one with the creator” causes our brains to slip into a meditative or Theta state. When in this state it’s easy for me to see where someone may speak in tongues, hear the voice of God and feeling his presence even if all of that is complete nonsense. Deep meditation can have a very powerful effect on the brain.

Sure this can happen, but God can give you much stronger experience. What He usually does is help you meditate on the scriptures so you can get that deeper meaning.

Richard Dawkins is always pushing Religion as being a harm and trying to exclude it at all costs. A Fundamentalist Religious person in my books would do the same about all other religions as well as non-religions. Ultimately both sides are excluding anything but their own world view. They are the same.

It’s fine to practice a closed belief system but it will not help further society. It will exclude you from social growth as growth involves change and change is not welcome in a Fundamentalist Belief System (like Dawkins or New Earth Creationists / Many Evangelicals).

I tend to lump atheism, scientism and false religion into the same category - being Satan's destructive influence on the world. I also don't see growth in the knowledge of the world to be important. Much worldly knowledge is bad. I must make careful distinction between technical knowledge and knowledge of the Word of God. I always think of Erich Fromm's statement in The Revolution of Hope: Toward a Humanized Technology set forth below about man's unguided use of technical knowledge.

“In the search for scientific truth, man came across knowledge that he could use for the domination of nature. He had tre­mendous success. But in the one-sided emphasis on technique and material consumption, man lost touch with himself, with life. Having lost religious faith and the humanistic values bound up with it, he concentrated on technical and material values and lost the capacity for deep emotional experiences, for the joy and sadness that accompany them. The machine he built became so powerful that it developed its own program, which now determines man's own thinking.”

[daouda]

Unfortunately, you are still blind with delusion.

I'm not sure that's unfortunate for him. Personnally I wish I hadn't that cartesian mind that prevents me from blind faith. Faith is a powerful thing. I envy those with unalterable faith in God. They are never alone in their mind, and that gives them great strength in the face of adversity. Not to mention the suppression of the stress that comes with wondering the meaning of life, what's good or bad, what's gonna happen when I die etc... I'm pretty sure faith is a great asset for longevity. Plus placebo will always be the best way to heal. Also, prayer has proven health benefits (which can also be obtained with secularized forms of meditation).

I've lived in very poor countries where people are very religious/spiritual and they always strike me as being happier, more positive compared to mostly atheist "first world" people whom otherwise have it much better in most other aspects of life.
France is one of the (if not the) most atheist countries in the world and its people are maybe the first consumers of antidepressant in the world, plus their pessimism is well known.

Edited by daouda, 17 April 2013 - 07:55 PM.

[Lister]

I tend to lump atheism, scientism and false religion into the same category - being Satan's destructive influence on the world.

This is what I would classify as a Fundamentalist or Neo-Religious view point. Pretty much everything you just said above is a statement of inflexibility. Instead of saying "that may be the case however I feel it is this way" you said "ah yes let me tell you the real truth.”

You arrogantly assume that you have the whole answer and thus your entire purpose is just to drag people towards that answer. To add to this you are excluding the possibility of other truths counter to your own and this again is inflexible. Social progression is based on change so if you’re not willing to change any of your views then you will not help further society and I’m sorry but, you are no better than Richard Dawkins.

[Lister]

Unfortunately, you are still blind with delusion.

I'm not sure that's unfortunate for him. Personnally I wish I hadn't that cartesian mind that prevents me from blind faith. Faith is a powerful thing. I envy those with unalterable faith in God. They are never alone in their mind, and that gives them great strength in the face of adversity. Not to mention the suppression of the stress that comes with wondering the meaning of life, what's good or bad, what's gonna happen when I die etc... I'm pretty sure faith is a great asset for longevity. Plus placebo will always be the best way to heal. Also, prayer has proven health benefits (which can also be obtained with secularized forms of meditation).

I've lived in very poor countries where people are very religious/spiritual and they always strike me as being happier, more positive compared to mostly atheist "first world" people whom otherwise have it much better in most other aspects of life.
France is one of the (if not the) most atheist countries in the world and its people are maybe the first consumers of antidepressant in the world, plus their pessimism is well known.

I agree that blind faith can be somewhat enviable just as a child’s ignorance of the world is somewhat enviable. Not knowing that you’ll be hit by a train is a nice way to go if there’s no way to avoid said train.

That being said if I see you in that predicament (about to be hit by a train) and I decide to live in ignorance of that fact when I could be attempting to prevent it is not excusable. There are some countries where this blind faith is critical to daily lives. If you want to really open your eyes to this fact watch this Vice documentary (not work safe):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRuSS0iiFyo

That being said, those of us living in rich, powerful and spoiled western countries have no right to live our lives blindly faithful. To live our luxurious lives off the backs of poorer countries and then stand up and say that those countries will be looked after by God could be equated to murder. Ignorance is not something one is entitled to. Ignorance is something one accepts in place of a difficult and usually better alternative.

[daouda]

. There are some countries where this blind faith is critical to daily lives. If you want to really open your eyes to this fact watch this Vice documentary (not work safe):

I dont need to "get my eyes open to this fact " by that video, thanks (btw I have lived and traveled extensively in West Africa and what has happened in Liberia is absolutely exceptionnal. Although I've been to Monrovia where I have lived have been mostly very peaceful places and the displays of faith don't reach the intensity level displayed in this video). This is actually the point of my post : faith gets really helpful in the face of great adversity. I've been "floxed" by fluoroquinolone antibiotics, and beleive me it has been absolute HELL on earth (often an overused expression but truely appropriate in that case) for many many months, and I sure wish I had some religious faith to comfort me in those times. I still don't know how I managed to get through this. Well I was actually too weak to end it all myself... I was kind of close to converting to Islam at some point (have had many good muslim friends) but then my scientific background, education, and the profound cartesian nature of my mind simply prevent me from it. "Daouda" is the (usually muslim) west african version of "david"..
Usually you can observe that the most a people suffer, the more religious they get, but it isnt always true.

Edited by daouda, 17 April 2013 - 08:49 PM.

[shadowhawk]

How accurate is religion anyway? What does this mean? Compared to what? How accurate is anything. To me this is a nonsense question and could mean almost anything.

[william7]

I tend to lump atheism, scientism and false religion into the same category - being Satan's destructive influence on the world.

This is what I would classify as a Fundamentalist or Neo-Religious view point. Pretty much everything you just said above is a statement of inflexibility. Instead of saying "that may be the case however I feel it is this way" you said "ah yes let me tell you the real truth.”

You arrogantly assume that you have the whole answer and thus your entire purpose is just to drag people towards that answer. To add to this you are excluding the possibility of other truths counter to your own and this again is inflexible. Social progression is based on change so if you’re not willing to change any of your views then you will not help further society and I’m sorry but, you are no better than Richard Dawkins.

You exaggerate quite a bit here. I have a Scriptural point of view that I express to others casually. As far as arrogantly dragging others towards my point of view, this is just totally untrue. I do not publish my views nor am I speaker with a bully pulpit and a following like the mouthpieces for atheism, scientism, and false religion.

I've entertained many so-called truths or viewpoints over the years and have found many of them to be serious falsehoods or lacking in many respects.

Edited by william7, 18 April 2013 - 01:21 AM.

[daouda]

How accurate is religion anyway? What does this mean? Compared to what? How accurate is anything. To me this is a nonsense question and could mean almost anything.

Yeah this is actually what got me into this thread, I was like "How accurate is religion" WTF does that even mean????

[Lister]

How accurate is religion anyway? What does this mean? Compared to what? How accurate is anything. To me this is a nonsense question and could mean almost anything.

Yeah this is actually what got me into this thread, I was like "How accurate is religion" WTF does that even mean????

You were in this thread before I changed the title. Also the title was changed because you and others were pulling the specific topic of Jesus's second coming in all different general directions (regardless of whether you were responding to others or not).

Shadow on the other hand is just being his usual, grumpy, critical self. Rate up those points he agrees with, call ad hominem everything else (yes I know what this is).

If you guys want a more specific topic you’re more than welcome to make one

PS: I give you guys an open door to talk about whatever you want and your choice of discussion is to complain about the discussion?

[daouda]

You were in this thread before I changed the title.

I didnt even realize this was the same thread as the one about "what would happen if jesus came back" (which I checked because I thought it should be funny). The weird actual title about the "accuracy of religion" is what made me come back to it.

PS: I give you guys an open door to talk about whatever you want and your choice of discussion is to complain about the discussion?

Lister please don't act all upset because I criticized your title with a little sentence (and how is that "a choice of discussion?") "How accurate is religion" really does not mean anything at all, that's really not my fault (what is "religion"?? Maybe "How accurate are religions" would have made a little more sense, but really not much more. "How historically accurate are the various religious texts" would definitely have been clearer and I think that's probably what you meant ), and I'm not in Longecity to talk about religion, I just sometimes check these religion discussion because they usually are hilarious (how can you have a rational debate about religion with hardcore religious participants? Who on earth would waste his energy for such a pointless thing??)

Edited by daouda, 18 April 2013 - 07:51 PM.

[shadowhawk]

How accurate is religion anyway? What does this mean? Compared to what? How accurate is anything. To me this is a nonsense question and could mean almost anything.

Yeah this is actually what got me into this thread, I was like "How accurate is religion" WTF does that even mean????

You were in this thread before I changed the title. Also the title was changed because you and others were pulling the specific topic of Jesus's second coming in all different general directions (regardless of whether you were responding to others or not).

Shadow on the other hand is just being his usual, grumpy, critical self. Rate up those points he agrees with, call ad hominem everything else (yes I know what this is).

If you guys want a more specific topic you’re more than welcome to make one

PS: I give you guys an open door to talk about whatever you want and your choice of discussion is to complain about the discussion?

You are my friend so don’t take it personally when I criticize the subject matter. Before you changed the topic I wasn’t attracted to it either because the discussion was totally off topic and you had to do a lot of stretching to try and find a connection. Those trying to make some connection were meet with a bunch of personal attacks rather than debate. I agree with daouda this new topic is worse than the last one and if it is so open as to allow for nothing but a continuing pissing contest, than daouda is right. What does it mean? Nothing, piss away.

I disagree with daouda with how he thinks religion is laughable. I have meaningful dialogue all the time with those I disagree with but some of this is difficult too take seriously. I came into Longecity because of my interest in Life extension. I made the mistake of answering Christian to questions of “faith.” I have thought of sharing Longecity with my Christian friends but who needs this? You might as well be a Jew in a KKK meeting.

It is the nature of discussions on the internet to be rough and tumble and one should expect it. This is too much.

Other than this I agree with most of what you say. You are doing a great job and are trying to create order and meaningful discussion. Thanks

[daouda]

I disagree with daouda with how he thinks religion is laughable.

OK please do not misrepresent my words, i DO NOT think that "religion is laughable" (but then again, what the hell is "Religion"?? Religions definitely are not a unified thing you can generalize under one term). On the other hand a debate between hardcore rationalists and hardcore religious ppl is 100% GUARANTEED to go absolutely NOWHERE and turn into a ridiculous exchange probably getting worse and worse as the "debate" goes on with highly probable name calling appearing towards the end.
Asking about "What will/would happen when/if jesus were to return to earth" on LONGECITY of all places is guaranteed to lead to a pathetic and comical spectacle....

Really, I do not even know what the hell I'm doing here in this thread...

Edited by daouda, 18 April 2013 - 09:45 PM.

[shadowhawk]

You were in this thread before I changed the title.

I didnt even realize this was the same thread as the one about "what would happen if jesus came back" (which I checked because I thought it should be funny). The weird actual title about the "accuracy of religion" is what made me come back to it.

PS: I give you guys an open door to talk about whatever you want and your choice of discussion is to complain about the discussion?

Lister please don't act all upset because I criticized your title with a little sentence (and how is that "a choice of discussion?") "How accurate is religion" really does not mean anything at all, that's really not my fault (what is "religion"?? Maybe "How accurate are religions" would have made a little more sense, but really not much more. "How historically accurate are the various religious texts" would definitely have been clearer and I think that's probably what you meant ), and I'm not in Longecity to talk about religion, I just sometimes check these religion discussion because they usually are hilarious (how can you have a rational debate about religion with hardcore religious participants? Who on earth would waste his energy for such a pointless thing??)

Why pick out religion? Any subject one can think of is full of disagreement with various viewpoints. Take Science for example. What is passed off as Science is almost always wrong and a hundred years from now they will be laughing at us as we do our forefathers. Want to hear people calling each other names? Just listen to the latest scientific proponents.

Look at Longecity. A hundred years from now we probably will all be dead.. Does that make one a deathest or a realist? Who is rational? I hope we all live forever. Shall we laugh? OK. Maybe we should just talk about religion.

I am just being crabby. Don’t waste your energy on such obvious nonsense.

[daouda]

Why pick out religion? Any subject one can think of is full of disagreement with various viewpoints.

Religion is different than most subjects because FAITH is ESSENTIAL to it. There is virtually not any other single subject in the whole universe of concepts and ideas where the proponent of a particular viewpoint will be so viscerally, emotionnally attached to it, beyond, yes, reason. Most religions actually explicitly require the beleiver for his faith to be unconditionnal. "Faith" is the absolute strongest, least flexible form of "belief" or "opinion".
That's why attempting to argue rationnaly with a religious person about his religion is an absolute waste of time, energy, saliva, ink etc...

Edited by daouda, 18 April 2013 - 10:13 PM.

[shadowhawk]

I disagree with daouda with how he thinks religion is laughable.

OK please do not misrepresent my words, i DO NOT think that "religion is laughable" (but then again, what the hell is "Religion"?? Religions definitely are not a unified thing you can generalize under one term). On the other hand a debate between hardcore rationalists and hardcore religious ppl is 100% GUARANTEED to go absolutely NOWHERE and turn into a ridiculous exchange probably getting worse and worse as the "debate" goes on with highly probable name calling appearing towards the end.
Asking about "What will/would happen when/if jesus were to return to earth" on LONGECITY of all places is guaranteed to lead to a pathetic and comical spectacle....

Really, I do not even know what the hell I'm doing here in this thread...

I don’t want to mis-represent what you said . You do not think religion is laughable. But then again ... what? I made my point in the last post, no field of study is unified. Name one. Does that not disqualify everything? Why just religion?

You describe yourself as a, “rationalist,” as opposed to those “religious.” What does that mean? I will let you take this someplace “rational.’ No name calling, there has been to much of that.

LONGECITY has had all kinds of discussions on it for a long time. Politics, Philosophy, Health and many more subjects. Now, after years, you seem to LONGECITY is not the place for discussions of religion. Why? What is wrong with religion being discussed? I am missing the rationality of this.

What are you doing in this thread? Are you asking that of religious people? For one I don’t know but you are welcome. Start a topic that is interesting and I will be happy to join in.

[shadowhawk]

Why pick out religion? Any subject one can think of is full of disagreement with various viewpoints.

Religion is different than most subjects because FAITH is ESSENTIAL to it. There is virtually not any other single subject in the whole universe of concepts and ideas where the proponent of a particular viewpoint will be so viscerally, emotionnally attached to it, beyond, yes, reason. Most religions actually explicitly require the beleiver for his faith to be unconditionnal. "Faith" is the absolute strongest, least flexible form of "belief" or "opinion".
That's why attempting to argue rationnaly with a religious person about his religion is an absolute waste of time, energy, saliva, ink etc...

1. Faith is involved in everything we do and is essential to existing and functioning in the world. A discussion of faith, is off topic here but we could start a thread. How about something like “Faith”s role in science.” Name me something that does not involve “faith.”

2. Is it “reasonable,” to say religious people are not reasonable? How about Buddhists. Hindus and others who make up the vast majority of the human population. How come you get to be the only one? The whole majority of the world, except you is, unreasonable?

3. I have been a Christian for quite some time and I have never heard such a mindless definition of faith. Could you source that for me?

4. Most of this does not strike me as being very, “rational.” Define rational for me, perhaps I am missing something. Time, energy, saliva, ink., are all wasted when talking with the religious Is this because, of all humans they are laughable? Something sure is wrong.

[shadowhawk]

Lister: “Shadow on the other hand is just being his usual, grumpy, critical self. Rate up those points he agrees with, call ad hominem everything else (yes I know what this is).”

A few times I have raised up points I agree with but not often. Nothing worthy of note. On the other hand I have had the peanut gallery all gang up and rate me down and for nothing. Never heard you say a word about that.

Glad you know your statement is ad hominem, attacking the person rather than the subject. Hope you don’t take my criticism personally because it isn’t..

Edited by shadowhawk, 18 April 2013 - 11:51 PM.

[Lister]

I’m not angry at you guys specifically – I’m just irritated at how much troll bait the religious side of this thread is eating (especially William). It’s not ok to derail a thread simply because you feel challenged on something that’s off topic. Even if you weren’t the one posing the challenge if you take up the challenge you will drive the thread further off topic.

Shadow, right after I changed the topic of the thread you came in with your comment. Don’t you think that’s a bit of a low blow? Aren’t you wise enough these days to read deep enough into the topic to see what’s going on? I won’t hold it against you but my Ad Hominem comment was merited.

And daouda, you didn’t know this was the same topic because you assumed it wasn’t and didn’t bother to verify. How can you be so critical when you can’t be bothered enough to read all relevant information?

I’ll change the topic back but you guys need to cut the off topic banter or I’ll start following the line of thought site admin would like me to follow; harsh consequences for off topic conversation. That goes for those non-religious OBVIOUS TROLLS on this thread too. I’ll come down harder on you if you keep up the one sentence troll bait.

[daouda]

How can you be so critical when you can’t be bothered enough to read all relevant information?

"So critical"? What are you talking about?? I somehow criticized a title which in itself didnt make any sense to me (the rest of the thread not having anything to do with my criticism) in a quick single post, without maliciousness, and that leads you to qualifying me as "so critical"??

I’ll change the topic back but you guys need to cut the off topic banter or I’ll start following the line of thought site admin would like me to follow; harsh consequences for off topic conversation.

I can't beleive this is adressed to me (among others)... I've actually just reread my interventions in this thread and your response here is absolutely uncalled for, and makes you look bad. Well i'm out of here for good this time, and won't ever come back to any religion-related topic (which I never intended to do anyway), so I hope I won't have to be abusively threatened (?) by a mod ever again!

Edited by daouda, 19 April 2013 - 01:49 AM.