87 replies to this topic

[shadowhawk]

IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS?

“If God exists, either He can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities or he does not come to the rescue. God, therefore is impotent to evil... There is another possibility, of course, and it is both the most reasonable and least odious. The biblical God is a fiction, like Zeus and the thousands of other dead gods which most sane humans now ignore.” - Sam Harris -

Atheists love to act like the problem of evil should cause us to reject God. However, there are two sides to this coin. Is evil an agreement for God’s existence. This is the question for this topic. The quote above seems to argue, the existence of evil is a reason for Atheists to reject God but is it also a reason for belief in God and a problem for Atheists?

Is evil also a problem for Atheists or unbelievers in God?

[Jakare]

There is only one side on that coin. When atheists talk of the evil they are talking "as if" it does exist, not claiming to believe in the existence of such thing.

The hypothesis of existence of evil is a reason for theists to reject "the existence of a perfect god". So to give my answer to your question, evil is only a problem for theists that believe in a perfect god.

Anyway, Descartes' meditations might be the best attempt to scape such trap when he talks of the "evil genius". For those who want to believe in a perfect god it might be an interesting reading.

Edited by Jakare, 27 April 2013 - 10:28 AM.

[Mind]

A fun philosophical discussion. To move it into future possibilities (of good vs. evil, detached from our evolved/biological-based morals), check out this piece by LongeCity member Kip Werking: The transhuman condition

[N.T.M.]

I didn't watch the videos, but the only way considering evil could cause somebody to reject the idea of god is if that person assumes that god must be benevolent. The existence of evil has no bearing on deism, for example. That being said, there are many other reasons to reject the god hypothesis (as Christopher put it).

[shadowhawk]

I didn't watch the videos, but the only way considering evil could cause somebody to reject the idea of god is if that person assumes that god must be benevolent. The existence of evil has no bearing on deism, for example. That being said, there are many other reasons to reject the god hypothesis (as Christopher put it).

Sense you didn’t watch the videos or deal with the topic you have said nothing. I can think of many ways evil can relate to Deism but I will let it go because it will probably be like this. Ho humm!. By the way, the topic is, IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS?

[shadowhawk]

A fun philosophical discussion. To move it into future possibilities (of good vs. evil, detached from our evolved/biological-based morals), check out this piece by LongeCity member Kip Werking: The transhuman condition

I read the introduction to your article on the next two aqnthromorphic beliefs to die. Werking identified Copernicus defeat of geocentism, as a defeat but it was based largely upon the technology of the telescope and the fact we could not detect the nature of the solar system. The same technology has sense then revealed the fine tunning of the universe and there is still a strong argument going on for the geocentric focus of the universe based upon the nature of the fine tuning of the cosmos. Darwin has himself largely been overturned by the microscope as we have discovered the incredible complexity of the small world something not even imagined in the Origin of the Species..

It is not fair to Werking to try to relate to his view of evil by this limited exposure. It seems to be utilitarian. The human condition is a mixture of natural good and harm and this includes everything, humans as well. The good and bad impact of technology on our future is mentioned.

This is a futurist look but really does not deal with the subject of evil as far as I can tell.

[mikeinnaples]

Sense you didn’t watch the videos or deal with the topic you have said nothing. I can think of many ways evil can relate to Deism but I will let it go because it will probably be like this. Ho humm!. By the way, the topic is, IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS?

Are you basically saying that we cannot respond to the topic unless we watch the videos? That is too much to ask as not everyone can view the videos in the first place, nor will have the desire to do so due to length or other reasons.

I move that you make posts with real substance. I have no issue with you posting videos as long as you summarize them in regards to the point you are making rather than using them as a disqualifier for people's who opinions you disagree with.

[mikeinnaples]

The concept of 'Evil' is one that I had a huge problem reconciling with when I was religious. My Christian upbringing and the church I attended tought me that 'God' was 'good'. At the same time, they taught me that god created the universe, the world, mankind, and well... basically everything as all of existence was due to the will of 'God'. I reasoned that since 'God' was the creator of everything, not only was 'God' good, but 'God' was evil and everything in between as well.

With that said, is the concept evil a problem only for theists? The answer has to be no because evil as a concept is not defined by religion, but is defined instead by a society.

Willfully taking a human life is defined as 'evil' by most people, yet most of these very same people have no problem with torturing and killing thousands of other life forms themselves simply because they are lesser creatures.


Note: 'God' in my post is referring only to the Christian deity. I understand fully that there are other faiths and beliefs that differ greatly conceptually.

[shadowhawk]

Sense you didn’t watch the videos or deal with the topic you have said nothing. I can think of many ways evil can relate to Deism but I will let it go because it will probably be like this. Ho humm!. By the way, the topic is, IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS?

Are you basically saying that we cannot respond to the topic unless we watch the videos? That is too much to ask as not everyone can view the videos in the first place, nor will have the desire to do so due to length or other reasons.

I move that you make posts with real substance. I have no issue with you posting videos as long as you summarize them in regards to the point you are making rather than using them as a disqualifier for people's who opinions you disagree with.

Now where did you get this conclusion. As usual, you also don’t here relate to the topic in any way and that is what I was complaining about., Don’t bother if watching a video, or not watching one, makes it to hard for you. Please do not watch videos if it makes you freak out. I am not trying to get you to engage in any learning activity normal people engage in. Your conclusions betray a thought disorder. I didn’t disqualify anyone, you did. Stay on topic

IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS?

[shadowhawk]

The concept of 'Evil' is one that I had a huge problem reconciling with when I was religious. My Christian upbringing and the church I attended tought me that 'God' was 'good'. At the same time, they taught me that god created the universe, the world, mankind, and well... basically everything as all of existence was due to the will of 'God'. I reasoned that since 'God' was the creator of everything, not only was 'God' good, but 'God' was evil and everything in between as well.

With that said, is the concept evil a problem only for theists? The answer has to be no because evil as a concept is not defined by religion, but is defined instead by a society.

Willfully taking a human life is defined as 'evil' by most people, yet most of these very same people have no problem with torturing and killing thousands of other life forms themselves simply because they are lesser creatures.


Note: 'God' in my post is referring only to the Christian deity. I understand fully that there are other faiths and beliefs that differ greatly conceptually.

By “lesser creatures” could you be referring to unborn human babies? Animals? Plants? Bacteria? Do you feel good about this or bad? Some feel neither such as in my next post.

[mikeinnaples]

Now where did you get this conclusion. As usual, you also don’t here relate to the topic in any way and that is what I was complaining about., Don’t bother if watching a video, or not watching one, makes it to hard for you. Please do not watch videos if it makes you freak out. I am not trying to get you to engage in any learning activity normal people engage in. Your conclusions betray a thought disorder. I didn’t disqualify anyone, you did. Stay on topic

IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS?

Who said watching videos is hard or freak me out? Quite a jump you made there. Also what is up with the multiple personal attacks?

In regards to my first response to you, you did post this right?

Sense you didn’t watch the videos or deal with the topic you have said nothing. I can think of many ways evil can relate to Deism but I will let it go because it will probably be like this. Ho humm!. By the way, the topic is, IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS?

The person you said this too clearly responded on topic, even if you don't understand 'why' it is on topic. In light of this and the rest of your response, it seemed to me you basically disqualified him because he told you that he had not watched the video. No need to get angry, issue personal attacks, and question a person's sanity and/or intelligence.

I have to ask why you refuse to spend a couple of seconds of your life summarizing a video that *you* posted, while demanding others spend minutes/hours of their lives watching them. Seems silly to me.

[mikeinnaples]

The concept of 'Evil' is one that I had a huge problem reconciling with when I was religious. My Christian upbringing and the church I attended tought me that 'God' was 'good'. At the same time, they taught me that god created the universe, the world, mankind, and well... basically everything as all of existence was due to the will of 'God'. I reasoned that since 'God' was the creator of everything, not only was 'God' good, but 'God' was evil and everything in between as well.

With that said, is the concept evil a problem only for theists? The answer has to be no because evil as a concept is not defined by religion, but is defined instead by a society.

Willfully taking a human life is defined as 'evil' by most people, yet most of these very same people have no problem with torturing and killing thousands of other life forms themselves simply because they are lesser creatures.


Note: 'God' in my post is referring only to the Christian deity. I understand fully that there are other faiths and beliefs that differ greatly conceptually.

By “lesser creatures” could you be referring to unborn human babies? Animals? Plants? Bacteria? Do you feel good about this or bad? Some feel neither such as in my next post.

Exactly. What exactly is a lesser creature and how is that determined? I will come back to this in a bit......

You still didn't respond to the bigger point I was making, and they do tie together. 'God' cannot be both the creator of everything while only being 'good'. If there is a 'God' that created everything and is in everything, then that 'God' is both good AND evil.

What about one of 10 commandments of 'God': Thou shalt not kill ? 'God' is the creator of everything and is both good and evil. The concept of murder and the ability to end the life of another creature was created by 'Him'. Why then is it ok to kill fish in the sea to survive according to the bible, but it is not okay to kill another human being. Is this religious guidance or society's ?

[shadowhawk]

There is only one side on that coin. When atheists talk of the evil they are talking "as if" it does exist, not claiming to believe in the existence of such thing.

The hypothesis of existence of evil is a reason for theists to reject "the existence of a perfect god". So to give my answer to your question, evil is only a problem for theists that believe in a perfect god.

Anyway, Descartes' meditations might be the best attempt to scape such trap when he talks of the "evil genius". For those who want to believe in a perfect god it might be an interesting reading.

Are you saying evil does not exist because it is only spoken of “as if.” it was real? It is, if I am reading you correctly, a facilitator for communication. Therefore, evils such as killing, rape, child molestation, the holocaust, etc. armet really evil? Evil as a concept only exists for a theist? I believe this is consistent and brings up the problem of moral values but that is somewhat off topic. Here it is anyway, You must deny premise 1,

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.

2. Objective moral values exist.

3. Therefore, God exists.

But is evil a problem for belief in god as is the subject of the first short video I presented. Here is a book but I know it will panic some who have problems with learning.
http://www.amazon.co...a/dp/0802817319

If evil does not exist how then is it a problem for belief in God? Here is a simple argument for God from evil. It is for human evil. Lets discuss it.

(1) A world containing free beings is better than a world without free beings, since only free beings can choose the good, or genuinely love, or be moral in any meaningful sense.

(2) True freedom entails that we also be free to choose the bad, or not to love, or to disobey the moral law.

[shadowhawk]

Now where did you get this conclusion. As usual, you also don’t here relate to the topic in any way and that is what I was complaining about., Don’t bother if watching a video, or not watching one, makes it to hard for you. Please do not watch videos if it makes you freak out. I am not trying to get you to engage in any learning activity normal people engage in. Your conclusions betray a thought disorder. I didn’t disqualify anyone, you did. Stay on topic

IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS?

Who said watching videos is hard or freak me out? Quite a jump you made there. Also what is up with the multiple personal attacks?

In regards to my first response to you, you did post this right?

Sense you didn’t watch the videos or deal with the topic you have said nothing. I can think of many ways evil can relate to Deism but I will let it go because it will probably be like this. Ho humm!. By the way, the topic is, IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS?

The person you said this too clearly responded on topic, even if you don't understand 'why' it is on topic. In light of this and the rest of your response, it seemed to me you basically disqualified him because he told you that he had not watched the video. No need to get angry, issue personal attacks, and question a person's sanity and/or intelligence.

I have to ask why you refuse to spend a couple of seconds of your life summarizing a video that *you* posted, while demanding others spend minutes/hours of their lives watching them. Seems silly to me.

As usual off topic. Don't freak out. I wouldn't dare suggest you watch a video and I thought I made that clear.. Don't watch them!!!

[nowayout]

To me the idea of evil seems to be as prescientific as the idea of the six day creation. A more modern view would categorize a lot of what people historically considered to be evil as symptoms of mental illnesses or psychopathologies.

[shadowhawk]

The concept of 'Evil' is one that I had a huge problem reconciling with when I was religious. My Christian upbringing and the church I attended tought me that 'God' was 'good'. At the same time, they taught me that god created the universe, the world, mankind, and well... basically everything as all of existence was due to the will of 'God'. I reasoned that since 'God' was the creator of everything, not only was 'God' good, but 'God' was evil and everything in between as well.

With that said, is the concept evil a problem only for theists? The answer has to be no because evil as a concept is not defined by religion, but is defined instead by a society.

Willfully taking a human life is defined as 'evil' by most people, yet most of these very same people have no problem with torturing and killing thousands of other life forms themselves simply because they are lesser creatures.


Note: 'God' in my post is referring only to the Christian deity. I understand fully that there are other faiths and beliefs that differ greatly conceptually.

By “lesser creatures” could you be referring to unborn human babies? Animals? Plants? Bacteria? Do you feel good about this or bad? Some feel neither such as in my next post.

Exactly. What exactly is a lesser creature and how is that determined? I will come back to this in a bit......

You still didn't respond to the bigger point I was making, and they do tie together. 'God' cannot be both the creator of everything while only being 'good'. If there is a 'God' that created everything and is in everything, then that 'God' is both good AND evil.

What about one of 10 commandments of 'God': Thou shalt not kill ? 'God' is the creator of everything and is both good and evil. The concept of murder and the ability to end the life of another creature was created by 'Him'. Why then is it ok to kill fish in the sea to survive according to the bible, but it is not okay to kill another human being. Is this religious guidance or society's ?

Had you looked at the videos you would have discovered this is wrong.. I’m not asking you to!!!

Can God create a square circle? Can God sin? Can God make a rock he cannot lift. To this let me add, can God create freely moral people who are not free? See video 1 for a short answer.

Why are you attacking God when the topic is: IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS?

Don’t eat fish. You are a one trick pony. Is evil a problem for your view or are you stuck on attacking religion? Why can’t you understand the topic? Something else is going on here and it is boring.

You promised you would tell what a “lesser creature,” is and of course you didn’t.??? Is it a fish? Is eating fish a problem of evil for you? OK that wouldbe on topic. Why?

[shadowhawk]

To me the idea of evil seems to be as prescientific as the idea of the six day creation. A more modern view would categorize a lot of what people historically considered to be evil as symptoms of mental illnesses or psychopathologies.

For you there is no evil? Is evil a tragity of nature that hurts you. My question had to do with Moral Evil but here you seem to want to change the subject abd talk about natural evil.

IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS?

Edited by shadowhawk, 01 May 2013 - 10:14 PM.

[nowayout]

To me the idea of evil seems to be as prescientific as the idea of the six day creation. A more modern view would categorize a lot of what people historically considered to be evil as symptoms of mental illnesses or psychopathologies.

For you there is no evil? Is evil a tragity of nature that hurts you. My question had to do with Moral Evil but here you seem to want to change the subject abd talk about natural evil.

IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS?

To answer your question, yes, I think evil is a problem for theists, and no, I don't think it is only a problem for theists. It is also a problem for pre-scientific atheists. As for the appropriate response of a modern person to this problem, I don't think evil even exists in a proper scientific sense. What we can identify scientifically is pathopsycology, which should be able to encompass everything people used to think of as evil. So yes, very basically, I would agree that what people used to think of as evil is a tragedy of nature that hurts you, as you succinctly put it.

Edited by viveutvivas, 01 May 2013 - 11:48 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

Why are you attacking God when the topic is: IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS?

Don’t eat fish. You are a one trick pony. Is evil a problem for your view or are you stuck on attacking religion? Why can’t you understand the topic? Something else is going on here and it is boring.

You promised you would tell what a “lesser creature,” is and of course you didn’t.??? Is it a fish? Is eating fish a problem of evil for you? OK that wouldbe on topic. Why?

I didn't attack "God" at all and I wasn't attacking religion. Not only was my response on topic, but I even told you what a "lesser" creature was.

Rather than be so fucking defensive as a first response, READ what I wrote to you.

[mikeinnaples]

Exactly. What exactly is a lesser creature and how is that determined? I will come back to this in a bit......

You still didn't respond to the bigger point I was making, and they do tie together. 'God' cannot be both the creator of everything while only being 'good'. If there is a 'God' that created everything and is in everything, then that 'God' is both good AND evil.

What about one of 10 commandments of 'God': Thou shalt not kill ? 'God' is the creator of everything and is both good and evil. The concept of murder and the ability to end the life of another creature was created by 'Him'. Why then is it ok to kill fish in the sea to survive according to the bible, but it is not okay to kill another human being. Is this religious guidance or society's ?

Lets break this down:

If God actually created everything as I was taught and the concept of evil is actually real and something, then God must have created evil. This holds true as well for the concept of good. Due to this, I have to reason that God simply isn't good or evil, but both at the same time. This also conforms to what I was taught: God is in everything (or is everything).

You with me so far Shadowhawk? This is not an attack on God or religion and should not be viewed as such.

I then asked you about the 10 commandments, specifically the commandment 'Thou shalt not kill'. I pointed out that the ability to end the life of another was also God's creation since God created everything. I then pointed out that the bible's reference to fishing to feed yourself is apparently ok in the eye of God. Basically, according to the bible or the word of God, it is ok to kill a fish (not evil?!) but it is not ok to kill another human being (evil?!). I then asked you if this was actually religious guidance or society's, implying that perhaps society influences good/evil conceptually more so than religion as from my view point, God doesn't care either way because he is both good and evil, he is everything.

Sure society might use religion as a mouth piece (or excuse) at times, as it is a powerful tool....... but I propose that even if God does exist, the concept of Good and Evil is changed over time by society. From my view point, God doesn't care one way or another as both are his creations. If God does exist, he lets us figure that out for ourselves as it is relevant to our society.

So again, what is a lesser creature' ? You and I determine that, not God. This is why it is perfectly acceptable for me to catch, kill, and eat a fish from the sea but if I took little Jimmy's pet gold fish out of it's fish tank and did the same thing, I would be a deplorable person.



Edit: I guess I should point this out specifically before you accuse me of not answering your question again, despite it clearly being there for you to see. Evil isn't only a problem for theists, because both evil/good is determined by society. Evil is a problem for everyone.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 02 May 2013 - 03:16 PM.

[shadowhawk]

mikeinnaples: Lets break this down:

If God actually created everything as I was taught and the concept of evil is actually real and something, then God must have created evil. This holds true as well for the concept of good. Due to this, I have to reason that God simply isn't good or evil, but both at the same time. This also conforms to what I was taught: God is in everything (or is everything).

Wrong view of Christianity. God did not create evil. The topic is, IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS? I have only repeated this over and over, yet you continue to attack theism????

mikeinnaples: You with me so far Shadowhawk? This is not an attack on God or religion and should not be viewed as such.

No, it is off topic and your view of evil as held by Christians is wrong. I am not going to go off topic to educate you. Besides, you only have original thoughts, remember? By the way, you claim to have been taught this.

mikeinnaples: I then asked you about the 10 commandments, specifically the commandment 'Thou shalt not kill'. I pointed out that the ability to end the life of another was also God's creation since God created everything. I then pointed out that the bible's reference to fishing to feed yourself is apparently ok in the eye of God. Basically, according to the bible or the word of God, it is ok to kill a fish (not evil?!) but it is not ok to kill another human being (evil?!). I then asked you if this was actually religious guidance or society's, implying that perhaps society influences good/evil conceptually more so than religion as from my view point, God doesn't care either way because he is both good and evil, he is everything

Indeed this is original but wrong. Off topic. What are you worrying about eating fish for? Is this a problem for you? Remember the topic, , IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS?

mikeinnaples: Sure society might use religion as a mouth piece (or excuse) at times, as it is a powerful tool....... but I propose that even if God does exist, the concept of Good and Evil is changed over time by society. From my view point, God doesn't care one way or another as both are his creations. If God does exist, he lets us figure that out for ourselves as it is relevant to our society.

Remember: , IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS?

mikeinnaples: So again, what is a lesser creature' ? You and I determine that, not God. This is why it is perfectly acceptable for me to catch, kill, and eat a fish from the sea but if I took little Jimmy's pet gold fish out of it's fish tank and did the same thing, I would be a deplorable person.

How original. Your problem is eating fish!!! Ok, finally you are kind of on topic. Don’t eat gold fish.

mikeinnaples: Edit: I guess I should point this out specifically before you accuse me of not answering your question again, despite it clearly being there for you to see. Evil isn't only a problem for theists, because both evil/good is determined by society. Evil is a problem for everyone.

Does that mean evil exists or not, in your view? Who said don’t eat goldfish? Society? That is a problem.

[Lister]

@_@

I feel mike did sort of hit the nail on the head when he said that “Evil” and “Good” are socially defined terms. And then mike and shadow starting going back and forth; I read until I was properly dizzy and stopped.

On the surface I would say “Good” and “Evil” are simplified groupings of actions/events. Sort of to say “Good” is “Stuff we like” and “Evil” is “Stuff we really don’t like.” Though I think there’s more to it than that.

Evil is more or less the actions which are a result of mental and emotional illness. Can we call the Boston Marathon bombers evil? I think their uncle was right when he called them losers. Really they aren’t evil, they’re just idiots. They allowed themselves to be fooled by propaganda and to detach themselves from the reality of what they were doing / what they did. It’s not evil, it’s just sheer stupidity. And really their motivation was the word “Evil” as in, “the US is evil” which is IGNORANT. They were motivated by the very nature of these over simplified generalizations.

I think the use of the word Evil is by definition ignorant. Just as stereotyping groups of people can lead to ignorant and hateful action/events; stereotyping events/actions themselves can lead to ignorant and hateful actions/events.

When you generalize you always miss a majority of the information.

So to answer your question “IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS” I would say no.

“EVIL IS AN IGNORANT TERM AND IS A PROBLEM FOR ALL”

[Googoltarian]

Or maybe EVIL is just human invention for behaviour control? After person is familiar with this term he can be quickly adjusted to don't do X, if others or person of authority is showing somehow that X is EVIL.

[Lister]

Or maybe EVIL is just human invention for behaviour control? After person is familiar with this term he can be quickly adjusted to don't do X, if others or person of authority is showing somehow that X is EVIL.

Then why not just call that behaviour "Wrong"? Why does it need to be called Evil? Evil has a lot more assumed meaning and intention behind it. This is why I say Evil as a term is a generalization; it's ignorant and it's wrong.

[mikeinnaples]

A whole bunch of childish nonsense.

I see that you are still completely unwilling to engage in a discussion or maintain any kind of civility. This just confirms my suspicions that your entire purpose on these boards is to troll them.

Sad. I hope one of the moderators that has been paying attention to you over time will catch on to that as well and finally do something about it.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 06 May 2013 - 08:23 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

Or maybe EVIL is just human invention for behaviour control? After person is familiar with this term he can be quickly adjusted to don't do X, if others or person of authority is showing somehow that X is EVIL.

Then why not just call that behaviour "Wrong"? Why does it need to be called Evil? Evil has a lot more assumed meaning and intention behind it. This is why I say Evil as a term is a generalization; it's ignorant and it's wrong.

I can agree with that mostly. Of course, we could probably engage in the same discussion in regards to generalizations about 'wrong' and 'right', heh. Those too are words with meanings defined by the societies we live in.

[Lister]

I can agree with that mostly. Of course, we could probably engage in the same discussion in regards to generalizations about 'wrong' and 'right', heh. Those too are words with meanings defined by the societies we live in.

This is true however using “Wrong” as a reason in of itself is less potent because it holds less spiritual and social ramifications. "Wrong" carries less weight than "Evil."

“Doing that is wrong because it’s wrong!”

“Doing that is wrong because it’s Evil!”

Most people would ask “Why” if you told them something was wrong while calling something Evil often seems to be reason enough.

Edited by Lister, 06 May 2013 - 11:01 PM.

[shadowhawk]

@_@

I feel mike did sort of hit the nail on the head when he said that “Evil” and “Good” are socially defined terms. And then mike and shadow starting going back and forth; I read until I was properly dizzy and stopped.

On the surface I would say “Good” and “Evil” are simplified groupings of actions/events. Sort of to say “Good” is “Stuff we like” and “Evil” is “Stuff we really don’t like.” Though I think there’s more to it than that.

Evil is more or less the actions which are a result of mental and emotional illness. Can we call the Boston Marathon bombers evil? I think their uncle was right when he called them losers. Really they aren’t evil, they’re just idiots. They allowed themselves to be fooled by propaganda and to detach themselves from the reality of what they were doing / what they did. It’s not evil, it’s just sheer stupidity. And really their motivation was the word “Evil” as in, “the US is evil” which is IGNORANT. They were motivated by the very nature of these over simplified generalizations.

I think the use of the word Evil is by definition ignorant. Just as stereotyping groups of people can lead to ignorant and hateful action/events; stereotyping events/actions themselves can lead to ignorant and hateful actions/events.

When you generalize you always miss a majority of the information.

So to answer your question “IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS” I would say no.

“EVIL IS AN IGNORANT TERM AND IS A PROBLEM FOR ALL”

Hi pal:

1. Your response raised several questions. If society defines what evil, was it evil what the Nazi’s did to the Jews? Just change society and evil becomes good and visa versa. Is that what you agree to. The majority can’t commit evil?

2. You say there is more to it than that. What?

3. You say Evil is the activities of those with mental and emotional illness. Does that not make the emotionally ill evil? Can those not loosers commit evil acts? Have all sinned or have only some been evil?

4. Are the highly educated less evil than the ignorant? If I understand your, the more evil you are the more ignorant you are and this would seem to give little hope for the uneducated. If evil is by definition ignorance, who gets to decide what is ignorant? When I use the term “evil,” am I being ignorant and by definition evil?

[shadowhawk]

A whole bunch of childish nonsense.

I see that you are still completely unwilling to engage in a discussion or maintain any kind of civility. This just confirms my suspicions that your entire purpose on these boards is to troll them.

Sad. I hope one of the moderators that has been paying attention to you over time will catch on to that as well and finally do something about it.

As usual off topic. I am totally willing to engage you. Say something on topic.

Go tell the moderator to read your posts for the last several years and you will find out the truth. You do this all the time to people who are theists. This is nothing new. Boring.

[shadowhawk]

Is there a good reason for evil? What is evil? Could it have a purpose? Here is a view of evil from an adult rather than a childish perspective.

What is evil? So far we have seen repeated attempts to define it. It is god’s fault, society, mental illness and a number of lesser reasons. I made a couple of attempts to get the discussion off on a high level by posting videos and presenting a couple of formal arguments. This produced complaints because it meant thinking a bit about the subject.

If God is real and created all things, and if evil is a thing, then Cod does not exist or he is evil. The answer from Christianity is God did not create evil because evil as a thing does not exist. The person who probably explained it best was St. Augustine, and then Thomas Aquinas picked up on his solution. Others since them have argued that evil has no ontological status in itself.

The word ontology deals with the nature of existence. When I say that evil has no ontological status, I mean that evil, as a thing in itself, does not exist.

Let me give you an illustration to make this more clear. We talk about things being cold or warm. But coldness is not a thing that exists in itself; it has no ontological status. Coldness is the absence of heat. When we remove heat energy from a system, we say it gets colder.

"Cold" isn't a thing. It's a way of describing the reduction of molecular activity resulting in the sensation of heat. So the more heat we pull out of a system, the colder it gets. Cold itself isn't being "created." Cold is a description of a circumstance in which heat is missing. Heat is energy which can be measured. When you remove heat, the temperature goes down. We call that condition "cold," but there is no cold "stuff" that causes that condition.

Here's another way of looking at it. Did you ever eat a donut hole? I don't mean those little round sugar-coated lumps you buy at the donut shop. I mean the hole itself. Donut holes are actually what's left when the middle is cut out of a donut. There's a space called a hole, a "nothing," the condition that exists when something is taken away. Same thing with a shadow. Shadows don't exist as things in themselves; they're just the absence of light.

Evil is like that. Evil isn't like some black, gooey stuff floating around the universe that glooms onto people and causes them to do awful things. Evil is the absence of good, a privation of good, not a thing in itself.

When God created the universe, he created everything good. He made a universe that was perfectly good. Everything was as it should be. After God was completely done with creating everything, something happened that reduced the good in the world. That loss of good is called evil…

Go back and review what I presented in the beginning of this thread.

Nothing that I have said is original with me. I have learned almost everything I know from others. So have you.