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IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS?

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#31 mikeinnaples

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:11 PM

A whole bunch of childish nonsense.


I see that you are still completely unwilling to engage in a discussion or maintain any kind of civility. This just confirms my suspicions that your entire purpose on these boards is to troll them.

Sad. I hope one of the moderators that has been paying attention to you over time will catch on to that as well and finally do something about it.


As usual off topic. I am totally willing to engage you. Say something on topic.

Go tell the moderator to read your posts for the last several years and you will find out the truth. You do this all the time to people who are theists. This is nothing new. Boring. :sleep:


I attempted to engage you on topic and you replied with childish behavior and ad hominem attacks. This is nothing new from you.

Lets be clear here.... I have a problem with you, not theists. This problem I have with you is due to your attitude and the way you respond to people. It has nothing to do with your beliefs or lack thereof, so kindly take the bigotry card you tried to play and put it back in your pocket. Thanks.

Anyways, I am going to do my best to ignore your nonsense as I had been doing for a few months. It is quite obvious that you do not make posts in these forums with the intent to engage in rational debate or to add anything meaningful to the community. I thought I would give you the benefit of the doubt and try again, but that was quite obviously a mistake on my part.

#32 Lister

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:52 PM

Hi pal:

1. Your response raised several questions. If society defines what evil, was it evil what the Nazi’s did to the Jews? Just change society and evil becomes good and visa versa. Is that what you agree to. The majority can’t commit evil?

2. You say there is more to it than that. What?

3. You say Evil is the activities of those with mental and emotional illness. Does that not make the emotionally ill evil? Can those not loosers commit evil acts? Have all sinned or have only some been evil?

4. Are the highly educated less evil than the ignorant? If I understand your, the more evil you are the more ignorant you are and this would seem to give little hope for the uneducated. If evil is by definition ignorance, who gets to decide what is ignorant? When I use the term “evil,” am I being ignorant and by definition evil?


You’ve got it reversed in all of the above. You are still attempting to use evil as a definition where as I’m saying that Evil is too much of a generalization to be used as a definition. So to ask "what is Evil" is wrong because Evil is too broad and too subjective to be applied to anything.

“Just change society and evil becomes good and visa versa” – Cultural Relativism.

You use Cold as a thing that doesn’t exist but it’s used to describe a very specific state of matter. Similarly Evil in of itself doesn’t exist but it’s used to describe an extremely broad and often stereotypical state/view of humanity.

It’s not that the ignorant are less or more evil than the educated; it’s that evil as a definition is ignorant of the facts of the situation it’s being used to describe. The mentally ill are therefore not evil just as they’re not blue or sky, however the results of mental illness is often described as being acts of evil which is an ignorant way of describing said actions.

If I killed a load of children in a school because I believed they were all mushrooms out to get me is that really Evil? In nature animals often kill the children of their mate born of another father; is that evil? Then when a human kidnaps, rapes, and kills a child is that Evil? Honestly I have trouble remaining objective on this last example; I get emotionally affected and want to call it evil and strike it out. But really you’re missing the “why” as in “Why did this person rape and kill a child?” “How can we prevent this from happening again?” “How can we identify individuals at risk of committing such horrible atrocities?

My point is when you call something Evil you’re reacting in an emotional way and you’re avoiding a potential solution to these unacceptable actions. This is why I say Evil is an ignorant term and is a problem for all. "These actions are Evil and we must pray to remove evil from our society" is wrong, ignorant, and is, in my view, unacceptable. Instead of calling something Evil it should be called "Wrong" in conjunction with "Why is it Wrong?" You can try "It's Evil" but when your answer to "Why is it Evil" is "because the Devil is an evil influnce on Man" you've entered the world of ignorance.
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#33 shadowhawk

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:58 PM

A whole bunch of childish nonsense.


I see that you are still completely unwilling to engage in a discussion or maintain any kind of civility. This just confirms my suspicions that your entire purpose on these boards is to troll them.

Sad. I hope one of the moderators that has been paying attention to you over time will catch on to that as well and finally do something about it.


As usual off topic. I am totally willing to engage you. Say something on topic.

Go tell the moderator to read your posts for the last several years and you will find out the truth. You do this all the time to people who are theists. This is nothing new. Boring. :sleep:


I attempted to engage you on topic and you replied with childish behavior and ad hominem attacks. This is nothing new from you.

Lets be clear here.... I have a problem with you, not theists. This problem I have with you is due to your attitude and the way you respond to people. It has nothing to do with your beliefs or lack thereof, so kindly take the bigotry card you tried to play and put it back in your pocket. Thanks.

Anyways, I am going to do my best to ignore your nonsense as I had been doing for a few months. It is quite obvious that you do not make posts in these forums with the intent to engage in rational debate or to add anything meaningful to the community. I thought I would give you the benefit of the doubt and try again, but that was quite obviously a mistake on my part.


Off topikc again. Ok. Nothing here. :)

Lister Edit: Nothing here? Then Why are you responding!? I see no Trolls here; only two 5 year olds being 5 year olds. Silly silly... If you both have nothing nice to say to each other then don't respond to each other. Mmk? :)

Edited by Lister, 08 May 2013 - 10:04 PM.

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#34 DukeNukem

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:57 PM

Evil is morally wrong behavior, and causing pain against the undeserved. Since morals exits without gods, evil can exist without gods. Evil is exactly what we would expect in a godless universe, because there's nothing to prevent its existence. For believers, though, it's an odd thing to allow in a universe by a god. Why not, as a god, simply prevent all acts of evil, and only allow for good. When you allow evil, you sometimes have to wipe out your own creations, such as Noah's flood, or killing children with bears. That a god would allow evil in his universe is really a head-scratcher. Not a clever thing to allow, if your goal is to enjoy the worship of your creation.

The fact that evil exists is just another nail in god's coffin (whichever god you have picked to believe in -- hard to list them all!).

#35 shadowhawk

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:23 PM

lister: You’ve got it reversed in all of the above. You are still attempting to use evil as a definition where as I’m saying that Evil is too much of a generalization to be used as a definition. So to ask "what is Evil" is wrong because Evil is too broad and too subjective to be applied to anything.


If I gave a definition of evil what is it? If you don’t know what it is, enough to define it, how do you know it is a generalization? How did I reverse it? Does evil mean anything at all to you? Can any culture be evil if the majority of society believe something for example racism or slavery?

lister: “Just change society and evil becomes good and visa versa” – Cultural Relativism.

You use Cold as a thing that doesn’t exist but it’s used to describe a very specific state of matter. Similarly Evil in of itself doesn’t exist but it’s used to describe an extremely broad and often stereotypical state/view of humanity.


The classic vew of evil for theists is that evil is a misuse of the good. For example a rock is good, and your head is good. Evil comes from me hitting you in the head with the rock. Evil as a thing does not exist. Something can be hot or cold but that does not change its nature. Water is another example. Tempature can change how it mainmasts itself but it is still water. For the theist, God made everything “good.” Evil, is the misuse of the good. But, there is more to it then this,

Evil comes when we freely choose to misuse the good. That is my point but you also have the issue if evil to deal with.. So far, hmmm. :)

lister: It’s not that the ignorant are less or more evil than the educated; it’s that evil as a definition is ignorant of the facts of the situation it’s being used to describe. The mentally ill are therefore not evil just as they’re not blue or sky, however the results of mental illness is often described as being acts of evil which is an ignorant way of describing said actions.


Are you saying anyone who tries to define the nature of evil, is ignorant? Haven’t you just tried to define evil? Aren’t you talking about something you think you know something about? What is it?

lister: If I killed a load of children in a school because I believed they were all mushrooms out to get me is that really Evil? In nature animals often kill the children of their mate born of another father; is that evil? Then when a human kidnaps, rapes, and kills a child is that Evil? Honestly I have trouble remaining objective on this last example; I get emotionally affected and want to call it evil and strike it out. But really you’re missing the “why” as in “Why did this person rape and kill a child?” “How can we prevent this from happening again?” “How can we identify individuals at risk of committing such horrible atrocities?”


Just convene society that something this is “good,” and it is no longer evil. You don’t have to feel bad because ir means nothing if the majority agrees.. This of course excludes those mentally ill, unless the majority. If you are not with the majority, you are evil. Remember, in your view, what you describe is not evil if the majority agree with it. Killing children might be alright???

lister: My point is when you call something Evil you’re reacting in an emotional way and you’re avoiding a potential solution to these unacceptable actions. This is why I say Evil is an ignorant term and is a problem for all. "These actions are Evil and we must pray to remove evil from our society" is wrong, ignorant, and is, in my view, unacceptable. Instead of calling something Evil it should be called "Wrong" in conjunction with "Why is it Wrong?" You can try "It's Evil" but when your answer to "Why is it Evil" is "because the Devil is an evil influnce on Man" you've entered the world of ignorance.


So if I understand you, if you don’t feel bad,, it’s not evil. To call it, “evil” would be an ignorant act? Praying is wrong (evil?), ignorant. And in your view, “unacceptable.” No evil and no devil fir those who are not ignorant in your view. Wow!

#36 Lister

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:57 PM

So if I understand you, if you don’t feel bad,, it’s not evil. To call it, “evil” would be an ignorant act? Praying is wrong (evil?), ignorant. And in your view, “unacceptable.” No evil and no devil fir those who are not ignorant in your view. Wow!


You missed the only parts I bolded. You missed the "Why?" You gave me a theist reason as to why evil exists however I was breaking things down into individual situations rather than a broader philosophy or religion. My question is “Why did the man rape the child?” or “Why did those Russian guys bomb a marathon?”

The reason “why” is so important to this topic is because, as I said, the “why” is more likely to be ignored when the situation is called Evil. To me it’s ok to pray, to believe Evil is miss used good; it’s OK as long as you don’t look at an event like the Boston Bombing and say “It’s Evil, Prayer is the only cure.”

I ask this question around my office; “Do you think the Boston Marathon Bombing was Evil?” The over whelming answer was as you’d expect was “of course it’s evil!” When I asked them “why is it evil” their answer was “Well it’s just evil!”

That’s exactly the problem for me. On the broader scale managers, leaders, politicians are asking why which is great! But we as a society are using Evil as some sort general all-encompassing definition and an excude to avoid thinking about it any further.

If you’re deliberately shielding yourself from the facts by broadly defining something as Evil how can that not be ignorant? How?

#37 shadowhawk

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 11:13 PM

Evil is morally wrong behavior, and causing pain against the undeserved. Since morals exits without gods, evil can exist without gods. Evil is exactly what we would expect in a godless universe, because there's nothing to prevent its existence. For believers, though, it's an odd thing to allow in a universe by a god. Why not, as a god, simply prevent all acts of evil, and only allow for good. When you allow evil, you sometimes have to wipe out your own creations, such as Noah's flood, or killing children with bears. That a god would allow evil in his universe is really a head-scratcher. Not a clever thing to allow, if your goal is to enjoy the worship of your creation.

The fact that evil exists is just another nail in god's coffin (whichever god you have picked to believe in -- hard to list them all!).

How about this...you have now brought “morals,” into the discussion. Moral values, bringing pain against the undeserving? Do some deserve pain? Who?

Morals exist without God. Proof? With a Godless universe I would expect no moral code. Doesn’t nature teach survival of the fittest? Tell me, from the example of raw nature, what is moral? What did you expect? Morals! Perhaps another thread on objective moral values, is in order.

From a Theist view, God does permit evil as a free choice, something I pointed out in the first post of this thread. See it again. No use repeating myself.

True to form rather than build your ow case for the reason for evil, we end up with attacks on Theism. Putting down God does nothing for your case which has some serious problems.

And what is your point in bringing up various beliefs in God? See the thread on pluralism.

#38 shadowhawk

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 11:30 PM

So if I understand you, if you don’t feel bad,, it’s not evil. To call it, “evil” would be an ignorant act? Praying is wrong (evil?), ignorant. And in your view, “unacceptable.” No evil and no devil fir those who are not ignorant in your view. Wow!


You missed the only parts I bolded. You missed the "Why?" You gave me a theist reason as to why evil exists however I was breaking things down into individual situations rather than a broader philosophy or religion. My question is “Why did the man rape the child?” or “Why did those Russian guys bomb a marathon?”

The reason “why” is so important to this topic is because, as I said, the “why” is more likely to be ignored when the situation is called Evil. To me it’s ok to pray, to believe Evil is miss used good; it’s OK as long as you don’t look at an event like the Boston Bombing and say “It’s Evil, Prayer is the only cure.”

I ask this question around my office; “Do you think the Boston Marathon Bombing was Evil?” The over whelming answer was as you’d expect was “of course it’s evil!” When I asked them “why is it evil” their answer was “Well it’s just evil!”

That’s exactly the problem for me. On the broader scale managers, leaders, politicians are asking why which is great! But we as a society are using Evil as some sort general all-encompassing definition and an excude to avoid thinking about it any further.

If you’re deliberately shielding yourself from the facts by broadly defining something as Evil how can that not be ignorant? How?


You are creating a straw man and arguing as if it was me. I wouldn’t mind if you’re a straw man was not such an idiot. :) Build your own case for the existence of evil.

As for your question, I am not doing that. In fact what would even cause you to ask that question?

#39 Lister

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 12:24 AM

So if I understand you, if you don’t feel bad,, it’s not evil. To call it, “evil” would be an ignorant act? Praying is wrong (evil?), ignorant. And in your view, “unacceptable.” No evil and no devil fir those who are not ignorant in your view. Wow!


You missed the only parts I bolded. You missed the "Why?" You gave me a theist reason as to why evil exists however I was breaking things down into individual situations rather than a broader philosophy or religion. My question is “Why did the man rape the child?” or “Why did those Russian guys bomb a marathon?”

The reason “why” is so important to this topic is because, as I said, the “why” is more likely to be ignored when the situation is called Evil. To me it’s ok to pray, to believe Evil is miss used good; it’s OK as long as you don’t look at an event like the Boston Bombing and say “It’s Evil, Prayer is the only cure.”

I ask this question around my office; “Do you think the Boston Marathon Bombing was Evil?” The over whelming answer was as you’d expect was “of course it’s evil!” When I asked them “why is it evil” their answer was “Well it’s just evil!”

That’s exactly the problem for me. On the broader scale managers, leaders, politicians are asking why which is great! But we as a society are using Evil as some sort general all-encompassing definition and an excude to avoid thinking about it any further.

If you’re deliberately shielding yourself from the facts by broadly defining something as Evil how can that not be ignorant? How?


You are creating a straw man and arguing as if it was me. I wouldn’t mind if you’re a straw man was not such an idiot. :) Build your own case for the existence of evil.

As for your question, I am not doing that. In fact what would even cause you to ask that question?


I’m certainly arguing to the topic rather than to the person (IE making points on my views on the term “Evil” rather than debating your points exclusively). Perhaps you feel I’m taking your points out of context and building a strawman of you – that’s not my intention.

“Build your own case for the existence of evil.” I’m not doing that. I’m saying that the word Evil is no good and I’m throwing it out. It’s a weak, broad, and as I’ve said numerous times, ignorant word. The wordTHE WORD, Evil, not the person, is ignorant. Got it?

I could probably accuse the word “bigot” of the same thing. It’s too general, carries too much meaning and is ignorant. It’s the same with the hundreds of insults in language. Shadow if I looked at you and called you a Jerk would you know what I was talking about? Would it change anything other than make you angry at me? You would think I was ignorant of who you really are, and likely, I probably am. This is the same thing for Evil. It’s a label.

#40 shadowhawk

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 01:08 AM

So if I understand you, if you don’t feel bad,, it’s not evil. To call it, “evil” would be an ignorant act? Praying is wrong (evil?), ignorant. And in your view, “unacceptable.” No evil and no devil fir those who are not ignorant in your view. Wow!


You missed the only parts I bolded. You missed the "Why?" You gave me a theist reason as to why evil exists however I was breaking things down into individual situations rather than a broader philosophy or religion. My question is “Why did the man rape the child?” or “Why did those Russian guys bomb a marathon?”

The reason “why” is so important to this topic is because, as I said, the “why” is more likely to be ignored when the situation is called Evil. To me it’s ok to pray, to believe Evil is miss used good; it’s OK as long as you don’t look at an event like the Boston Bombing and say “It’s Evil, Prayer is the only cure.”

I ask this question around my office; “Do you think the Boston Marathon Bombing was Evil?” The over whelming answer was as you’d expect was “of course it’s evil!” When I asked them “why is it evil” their answer was “Well it’s just evil!”

That’s exactly the problem for me. On the broader scale managers, leaders, politicians are asking why which is great! But we as a society are using Evil as some sort general all-encompassing definition and an excude to avoid thinking about it any further.

If you’re deliberately shielding yourself from the facts by broadly defining something as Evil how can that not be ignorant? How?


You are creating a straw man and arguing as if it was me. I wouldn’t mind if you’re a straw man was not such an idiot. :) Build your own case for the existence of evil.

As for your question, I am not doing that. In fact what would even cause you to ask that question?


I’m certainly arguing to the topic rather than to the person (IE making points on my views on the term “Evil” rather than debating your points exclusively). Perhaps you feel I’m taking your points out of context and building a strawman of you – that’s not my intention.

“Build your own case for the existence of evil.” I’m not doing that. I’m saying that the word Evil is no good and I’m throwing it out. It’s a weak, broad, and as I’ve said numerous times, ignorant word. The wordTHE WORD, Evil, not the person, is ignorant. Got it?

I could probably accuse the word “bigot” of the same thing. It’s too general, carries too much meaning and is ignorant. It’s the same with the hundreds of insults in language. Shadow if I looked at you and called you a Jerk would you know what I was talking about? Would it change anything other than make you angry at me? You would think I was ignorant of who you really are, and likely, I probably am. This is the same thing for Evil. It’s a label.


How about the word “ignorant?” Given this approach we could make a case for that. :)

If you called me a “jerk’” I would agree with you and know what you are talking about. Language is not impossible to understand and words do have meaning. Everything is not ignorant, nor is evil as a subject. That is a misuse of the word ignorant and evil.. Some people are ignorant but not because they believe in evil or ignorance or being a jerk. Subjects are not ignorant. Want a definition of the word?

Edited by shadowhawk, 09 May 2013 - 01:19 AM.


#41 Lister

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 02:57 AM

How about the word “ignorant?” Given this approach we could make a case for that. :)

If you called me a “jerk’” I would agree with you and know what you are talking about. Language is not impossible to understand and words do have meaning. Everything is not ignorant, nor is evil as a subject. That is a misuse of the word ignorant and evil.. Some people are ignorant but not because they believe in evil or ignorance or being a jerk. Subjects are not ignorant. Want a definition of the word?

I really don't see how this is a situation where just because I call something a duck we can now call everything a duck. The word "Evil" is overly broad. It's not that difficult of a concept to grasp nor does it lead us to a slippery slope situation where all definition falls apart.

Ignorant: “Resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or awareness.”

Evil:

“Evil is profound immorality. In certain religious contexts evil has been described as a supernatural force. Definitions of evil vary, as does the analysis of its root motives and causes. However elements that are commonly associated with evil involve unbalanced behavior involving expediency, selfishness, ignorance, or neglect. In cultures with Manichaean and Abrahamic religious influence, evil is usually perceived as the dualistic antagonistic opposite of good, in which good should prevail and evil should be defeated. In cultures with Buddhist spiritual influence, both good and evil are perceived as part of an antagonistic duality that itself must be overcome through achieving Śūnyatā meaning emptiness in the sense of recognition of good and evil being two opposing principles but not a reality, emptying the duality of them, and achieving a oneness. The philosophical question of whether morality is absolute or relative leads to questions about the nature of evil, with views falling into one of four opposed camps: moral absolutism, amoralism, moral relativism, and moral universalism. While the term is applied to events and conditions without agency, the forms of evil addressed in this article presume an evildoer or doers.”


The word Evil is too broad of a definition. It’s too subjective, and it is ignorant of the facts behind the situations it is used to describe. It is a failure of a word and hence it is a problem for all of us; not just Theists.

#42 shadowhawk

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 06:35 PM

Definition of EVIL
1
a : morally reprehensible : sinful, wicked <an evil impulse>
b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a person of evil reputation>

2
a archaic : inferior
b : causing discomfort or repulsion : offensive <an evil odor>
c : disagreeable <woke late and in an evil temper>

3
a : causing harm : pernicious <the evil institution of slavery>
b : marked by misfortune : unlucky
— evil adverb, archaic
— evil·ly adverb
— evil·ness noun

Ok, it is your view that one is ignorant to believe in evil. It is a problem because some believe in it! It's to broad to define in any meaningful way. Should we take it out of the dictionary to avoid being ignorant?

I confess to being ignorant, and because of it I confess my sins. Is one ignorant if they believe in sins, especially evil ones? :)

#43 DukeNukem

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 06:45 PM

Morals exist without God. Proof? With a Godless universe I would expect no moral code. Doesn’t nature teach survival of the fittest? Tell me, from the example of raw nature, what is moral? What did you expect? Morals! Perhaps another thread on objective moral values, is in order.



Natural selection is why we have morals. We see moral behavior is mammals and birds, and I think even some non-mammalian sea life. Morals allow us to care for our young and our elders, our relatives, and friends, because their survival helps our survival. So the root of moral behavior is natural selection.

Evil is anti-moral behavior. Without morals (thanks to natural selection), evil would not exist. Bacteria do not recognize evil because they do not have morals. Everything is pure programmed instinct for bacteria, without judgement or moral guidance.

And what is your point in bringing up various beliefs in God? See the thread on pluralism.


It's hard to keep track of which god or gods people might believe in, so I put them all in the same "gods" bucket.

#44 shadowhawk

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:50 PM

Morals exist without God. Proof? With a Godless universe I would expect no moral code. Doesn’t nature teach survival of the fittest? Tell me, from the example of raw nature, what is moral? What did you expect? Morals! Perhaps another thread on objective moral values, is in order.



Natural selection is why we have morals. We see moral behavior is mammals and birds, and I think even some non-mammalian sea life. Morals allow us to care for our young and our elders, our relatives, and friends, because their survival helps our survival. So the root of moral behavior is natural selection.

Evil is anti-moral behavior. Without morals (thanks to natural selection), evil would not exist. Bacteria do not recognize evil because they do not have morals. Everything is pure programmed instinct for bacteria, without judgement or moral guidance.

And what is your point in bringing up various beliefs in God? See the thread on pluralism.


It's hard to keep track of which god or gods people might believe in, so I put them all in the same "gods" bucket.


I have read many attempts to explain morals from “natural selection.” The strong eat the weak. (Selection) If the strong survive, then good. If the weak survive then .... Can we make a judgement of evil out of this? Ultimately a mutation caused an advance in survivability, through natural selection and became the source of evil. Mutations, natural selection and other means of explaining evolution are filled with many difficulties when used to explain morals and following our subject, evil. Natural selection can give us a source of morals when dealing with issues such as abortion, Nazism, Evolutionary Capitalism, and a thousand other examples come to mind. This is why few use Natural Selection as a basis for morals or evil. http://en.wikipedia....utionary_ethics Perhaps I will start a thread on Objective Morality.

Because there are many views on where evil comes from, are they, including yours, wrong? There is a thread on this subject where we can discuss this. Because there are various views and beliefs on every subject, that fact does not make them wrong? See Pluralism: http://www.longecity...ue/#entry581614

Putting any group of views in a “bucket,” may work for you but for me it doesn’t. :)

#45 platypus

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:53 PM

According to many people God is going to have billions of people either killed or eternally tortured. Can we make a judgement of evil out of this?

#46 shadowhawk

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 10:15 PM

According to many people God is going to have billions of people either killed or eternally tortured. Can we make a judgement of evil out of this?


Off topic and as usual you don't have a view of your own. People say all kinds of things. Is evil only a problem for Theists or do you also have a problem?

#47 Lister

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:49 AM

Well I’ve pretty much given my reasoning behind the word Evil being a problem for all but I’ll try and spur a new line of discussion from it.

To find out whose problem Evil is we have to ask what Evil is. Shadow has given the textbook definition however Evil covers a lot more than just the words contained in the definition.

Can you unpack the term “Evil”?
  • What is Sinful?
  • What is Wicked?
  • How do you define “Bad Character or Conduct?”
  • Whose definition are we using here? A broadly subjectively defined textbook definition or individuals? Or social? Which society? Religion? Which religion? Can you give an example?
  • Can you equate Evil as being a quality descriptor? As good as “Apple”? How about as good as “Ethnic”? “Hate”? Given a scale of all words is it more or less subjective?

Examples for Debate:

A man driving home to his family accidently runs over an old man. Out of fear the driver run’s and no body finds out who did it. The driver never tells anyone the truth and the truth is never found out.


Is this Evil? Why? If he had run over a child instead of an old man would that make it more or less Evil? If it was a Deer is it still as evil? His intention hasn’t changed just the victim.

A Muslim man bombs a café and kills 3 children in the process.


Is this Evil? Why? What if the man only appeared to be bombing the café when in fact he was transporting highly explosive materials and was negligent? Is that now more or less evil? What happens if he hadn’t blown up anyone at all and simply drove past? Is that still Evil?

What if we called the man Evil as a society and for 20 years we never found out it was an accident. In this situation was our original assessment justified? Was it fair? The courts will make their own decision but our actions, our choices are based on our views. If this man was killed by an angry mob because society labeled the man as Evil and term Evil was 90% of the reason it happened is that OK?

Several men hijacked planes and flew them into world trade center. They did this because they saw their enemy, the US, as being Evil. They decided to strike out against that Evil. As a result of this several Wars were started because the US was looking to seek out their version of Evil and destroy it. These at times pointless wars cost thousands of innocent lives on all sides.


Is it really ok to call people Evil when it can cause such destruction? When people feel that Evil is cause enough to wage pointless wars killing thousands, breaking apart families and by definition causing MORE “Evil.”
Is it really ok?

#48 platypus

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 07:07 AM

According to many people God is going to have billions of people either killed or eternally tortured. Can we make a judgement of evil out of this?


Off topic and as usual you don't have a view of your own. People say all kinds of things. Is evil only a problem for Theists or do you also have a problem?

Very predictable comment from you Shadowhawk. I do a have a problem with the background-story of Christianity, which to me seems to be the embodiment of evil (some people need to die so that the "better" people may go to heaven).
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#49 shadowhawk

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:54 PM

According to many people God is going to have billions of people either killed or eternally tortured. Can we make a judgement of evil out of this?


Off topic and as usual you don't have a view of your own. People say all kinds of things. Is evil only a problem for Theists or do you also have a problem?

Very predictable comment from you Shadowhawk. I do a have a problem with the background-story of Christianity, which to me seems to be the embodiment of evil (some people need to die so that the "better" people may go to heaven).


IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS? From your answer we still do not know your answer. Of corse you didn’t deal with the topic. Do you have a world view that includes evil or can all you do is attack theism?

I would answer your comment regarding Christianity but it would be off topic here..

#50 platypus

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 02:39 PM

Very predictable comment from you Shadowhawk. I do a have a problem with the background-story of Christianity, which to me seems to be the embodiment of evil (some people need to die so that the "better" people may go to heaven).


IS EVIL ONLY A PROBLEM FOR THEISTS? From your answer we still do not know your answer. Of corse you didn’t deal with the topic. Do you have a world view that includes evil or can all you do is attack theism?

I would answer your comment regarding Christianity but it would be off topic here..

I think evil is a larger problem for theists, as it's difficult to comprehend why "good" gods make such "evil" plans for the future of mankind.

#51 Lister

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 08:06 PM

I think evil is a larger problem for theists, as it's difficult to comprehend why "good" gods make such "evil" plans for the future of mankind.


Why don't you try and expand on that a little instead of making it look like you're just trying to troll theists? While I may agree with you I don't agree with your "one line is more than enough" method.

…Though really you guys (shadow) shouldn’t cave to such weak tea.

#52 platypus

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 11:43 AM

How could "evil" be a "problem" for non-theists? I'm not aware of a doctrine that the existence or non-existence of evil would contradict.

#53 shadowhawk

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:53 PM

How could "evil" be a "problem" for non-theists? I'm not aware of a doctrine that the existence or non-existence of evil would contradict.


From this, there is no evil. I guess you have nothing to say other than attack theists. One wonders...

Edited by shadowhawk, 13 May 2013 - 08:57 PM.


#54 platypus

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 02:32 PM

How could "evil" be a "problem" for non-theists? I'm not aware of a doctrine that the existence or non-existence of evil would contradict.


From this, there is no evil. I guess you have nothing to say other than attack theists. One wonders...

Well, for non-theists I think there can be evil deeds done by unstable individuals but I do not see how that constitutes a philosophical problem.

#55 shadowhawk

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:38 PM

.

How could "evil" be a "problem" for non-theists? I'm not aware of a doctrine that the existence or non-existence of evil would contradict.


From this, there is no evil. I guess you have nothing to say other than attack theists. One wonders...

Well, for non-theists I think there can be evil deeds done by unstable individuals but I do not see how that constitutes a philosophical problem.

OK. :|?

Edited by shadowhawk, 15 May 2013 - 05:36 PM.


#56 TheBatman

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 06:30 AM

The concept of 'Evil' is one that I had a huge problem reconciling with when I was religious. My Christian upbringing and the church I attended tought me that 'God' was 'good'. At the same time, they taught me that god created the universe, the world, mankind, and well... basically everything as all of existence was due to the will of 'God'. I reasoned that since 'God' was the creator of everything, not only was 'God' good, but 'God' was evil and everything in between as well.

With that said, is the concept evil a problem only for theists? The answer has to be no because evil as a concept is not defined by religion, but is defined instead by a society.

Willfully taking a human life is defined as 'evil' by most people, yet most of these very same people have no problem with torturing and killing thousands of other life forms themselves simply because they are lesser creatures.


Note: 'God' in my post is referring only to the Christian deity. I understand fully that there are other faiths and beliefs that differ greatly conceptually.


If you believed in Christianity I think the only "shalt not"s were kill, lie, steel, covet, and commit adultery. I think those are really the only forms of "evil" that are pretty much true for almost every situation, whether you are are atheist or not.

Anyways... I think other than those, evil is relative. I don't think anything or any action is evil itself, I just think people get offended too easy. So I think evil, or whatever you want to call it, only exists because people choose to get offended without forgiving the other person. Cause if nobody was offended, then everyone would be able to get along with their damn lives! :)

#57 Absent

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:22 PM

I don't think "Evil" is inherently hard or easy for any person of any religion. It is easily shown by history that people of all religions commit all sorts of crime. There are good and evil people out there, to put it bluntly. If your religion/beliefs forbid you from doing something, that usually isn't the determining factor of whether or not you get the urge to do it. The same can be said for laws/criminals.

#58 Layberinthius

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 02:27 AM

Morality must be taught to a child, if he is raised to believe that killing puppies is okay then he will never question this, he will grow up believing that this is true and a normal thing to do.

Morality is a learnt experience, feeling compassion for another living being or inanimate object is something which requires the correct environment to foster AND the correct environment to remain possible.

I have learnt from my father that if you are in constant pain (in his case back pain) you will quickly lose your morality, you will do anything to end the pain, even ruin 3 lives and start on ruining a 4th, or 5th. There is no morality left.

Power corrupts too.

Btw there was a scientific study done recently which had supposed proof that when you gain too much influence over others you tend to become blind to others suffering.

Personal Opinion:
This I believe is because in an uninhibited environment (spoilt), everyone will ultimatley want to continue to let others suffer. This is why you see so many fathers being abusive people to not only their own children but their spouses too. It is a flaw in our minds which we havent yet evolved to correct/fix yet. We are still evolving, we are not perfect yet!

The first sign is extreme levels of selfishness.

Onto another but similar topic, when you use occam's razor on religion, it ends up becoming a factor of our own perception of the world, we as a human being require a large chunk of our minds inorder to perceive the world in an accurate and logical way, if we are missing a piece of our minds or if there is a physical disorder of our minds we will end up perceiving the outside world in a different way.

This also goes towards the belief structure of religion, religion has us believe that there is an invisible man somewhere up there in the clouds dictating all of our lives like a director in a movie, this is something which only a distorted mind can believe IMHO.

Once you clear the human mind of any and all beliefs, any and all fears, any and all deck-of-cards lies (lies that have been stacked ontop of other lies, over a long period), and once you have cleared the mind of distortions of the world around you most people will come to the realization that there isnt a second set of eyeballs looking down through the clouds, and a person whom has only recently just discarded the religious belief structure will take a very long time to shake off the shackles of other peoples influence and control, but it can happen, I did it when I was 12.

The fact of the matter is, if you could convince a religious person that armageddon is occuring, then you could get them to run out into a street full of fast cars, but most religious people arent that gullible, they dont even believe it themselves that armageddon is here or that it is occuring right now, back deep in their minds, a place where all the secrets are kept (where that chior boy's privates reside) is where they truly live, this is where religious people live, and no your not a pedo just because you are religious, I'm not saying this, because they are too afraid of the consequences from breaking the rules. and as soon as someone reaches this point, they are lying to themselves (and to god) and they continue to place one lie upon another lie to the point that their head is filled with nothing but delusions and lies and half truths and dirty filthy thoughts. This is what creates criminal behavour, delusions about what another person is (example: an object instead of a human being.)

This is why rapists exist, not because of religion but because of lies and delusions and combining those thoughts with extreme levels of sexual drive then combined with a great soul-crushing sense of lonelyness, then bitterness and finally hate.

They use the hate and sexual drive to capture a potential victim, they use the sexual desire to follow through with it, and then use the lies and delusions to say to themselves repeatedly "its okay, this feels alright to do because my emotions make it feel alright". and then once the deed is done they are back to "normal", ie what you and us feel like all of the time.

The intense levels of emotions which a rapist goes through isnt something that you or I can easily control, especially if you have brain damage to deal with or other mental health issues. So saying that rape is something which merely can be controlled is like saying that you can cure cancer with bottled water. It is a complex equasion and there is a great deal of factors involved which makes an ordinary person into someone who would want to rape. Underlying mental health issues are just ONE of them. Things which a father or authority figure say to a child also influence a persons behaviour a great deal, this is why you will find a child who has grown up in a horrible home with a criminal father, the child then has the tendencies to commit crimes.

Religion can do this aswell, just have a look at buddhism, most of its followers are passive, but if you push them far enough they will fight back, Buddhist monks have gone through endless suffering, and so have the Jewish people, both religious dogmas are a form of control, but it is only one part of the equasion of influence over somebody else.

I know this sounds trollish but this is coming from personal experience with religious people. and I know drug pushers who take care of their kids better than religious people, so dont tell me that religion is a good way to level the playing field on morality.

On the contrary, the reason why I have never married, especially into a religion, is because religious groups tend to (IMHO) be a choke point and a magnet for the worst people that I have ever met, people who have serious mental health problems with deep seated emotional issues, where they lash out at complete strangers just to make themselves feel better.

An abusive home regardless of wether or not it was a religious home, is going to end up creating a child which will suffer for the rest of their lives, not only in monetary terms but in psychological terms aswell, these children do not grow up believing that you should get a job, get a car and find a girlfriend, these children grow up with PTSD and are relieving their traumatic experiences every day, sometimes multiple times per day, just when they are doing ordinary things like shopping and laundry, or cooking, or talking to their friends.

What goes through the mind of an abused victim is quite different from normal, their mind is filled with adrenaline and testosterone, they are constantly stuck in a fight or flight mode and dont come down from it until they fall asleep. This is what my mind was like ages 9to15.

If religion to me were a form of morals and guidance, a place that I could trust, religion would never allow these things to occur in the home, instead, in the form of fundamentalist religion, they are actually fostering it and protecting this kind of abuse against children from occuring from outside influences like the police.

Edited by Layberinthius, 22 August 2013 - 03:21 AM.


#59 Layberinthius

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 03:28 AM

It has taken an enormous earth-moving effort just to escape from religion and to escape from my fathers grip on my mind, and even to this day I still feel the power and strength of his influence, even long distance when I am talking to him over the phone. This kind of power and influence over a human being must stop throughout all levels of society.

Society today seems to revel and bathe itself in the immense joy that is consumerism, but it is just another form of control, just like religion, we as human beings do not need to continue to make money beyond what we need for living, yet we continue to do so anyway.

There must be a fundamental shift in how we behave as a human race before you can ever consider any of us moral or "intelligent", just look at how we are treating our earth, all over a few billion barrels of oil, just so we can drive down the street to buy crap and food that we dont need and that we shouldnt eat.

We are not living in a time of darkness, of influence from the devil. we are living in a time of immeasurable control and influence from ourselves.

This is the great age of control and influence, not of enlightenment or intelligence.

Edited by Layberinthius, 22 August 2013 - 03:31 AM.


#60 shadowhawk

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 09:05 PM

Layberinthius
The first very long post by him, never got around to dealing with the topic at hand. The subject of the posts seems to, at root, be a problem Layberinthius is having with his suffering father.

Lots of pain and anger to go around. Perhaps this explains the disjointed nature of the posts, jumping from one subject to the next. Using a method often used by atheists, rather than ask, why a good Atheist should care about evil suffering , (The topic) he attacks religion and changes the subject. Is Evil a problem for the non theist’s world view?

Most of Layberinthius criticisms of religion are cartoonist boring creations. I know many religious people and this is not a description anymore than is it on topic. I do feel sorry for the suffering Layberinthius is going through.





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