4029 replies to this topic

[lostfalco]

Genotoxicity test of BioPQQ

"In the in vivo micronucleus assay in mice, PQQ at doses up to 2000mg/kg body weight(!) demonstrated that no genotoxic effects are expressed in vivo in bone marrow erythrocytes...PQQ disodium was concluded to have no genotoxic activity in vivo."

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23891671

Edited by lostfalco, 25 September 2013 - 01:47 AM.

[lostfalco]

Just trying to keep up with the latest research. =)

Pyrroloquinoline quinone protects rat brain cortex against acute glutamate-induced neurotoxicity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23686346

Quotes:

1. Co-treatment with PQQ protected neural cells in the rat cortex from glutamate-induced apoptosis.

2. PQQ decreased the ROS production induced by glutamate injection.

3. PQQ could produce neuroprotective effects on the rat cortex.

4. The antioxidant properties of PQQ and PQQ-induced activation of Akt/GSK3β signal pathway might be responsible for the in vivo neuroprotection of PQQ.

Edited by lostfalco, 25 September 2013 - 02:37 AM.

[lostfalco]

Props to APBT for pointing this out over in the stacking thread. http://www.longecity...tc/#entry612873

Just want to make sure everybody sees this. LEF has finally done it! All in one. $32.99 (no affiliation)
PQQ 10mg
CoQ10 100mg
Shilajit 100mg

http://www.amazon.co.../dp/B00DBYI6RQ/

Edited by lostfalco, 25 September 2013 - 02:43 AM.

[middpanther88]

They've had that blend for a while, I believe. But the doses are half of what I thght they should be?

[lostfalco]

They've had that blend for a while, I believe. But the doses are half of what I thght they should be?

I looked repeatedly and never saw it...maybe I just missed it before. =)

Yeah. The main human study used 20mg PQQ and 300mg CoQ10.

I think the 10/100/100 is a good starting dose to test out. The aforementioned study was in elderly people and most of us are fairly young. If one capsule of this works per day than I'd say stick with that. It makes the whole LED/supplement combo a bit more reasonable price-wise if you want to go with the LEF versions (which is not completely necessary, of course).

Edited by lostfalco, 25 September 2013 - 03:03 AM.

[middpanther88]

I found that it's cheapest to purchase PQQ and CoQ10 separately (at each's cheapest price, of course...remember this is by mg/$).

[lostfalco]

I am looking in new options except the LEDs in ebay, Lostfalco you mentioned that wavelength and power is what is important, do you have specifics? Thanks!

Wavelengths (nm): 620, 680, 760, 825.
Most tested in humans: 808nm
Wavelengths I've had anecdotal success with: 850 and 808. 660 is good but not as good.

Power density: Do not exceed 320mW/cm2. Otherwise, just keep it low...30 seconds to a minute per spot to start with and go from there. I can do the math for you if you like...but I don't want to bore everyone unless necessary. MED applies as always. =)

"Cytochrome oxidase shows four major light absorption peaks within the red-to near-infrared band. These are determined by CuA and CuB, two of the four metal centers within the enzyme. These peaks of absorption are 620 nm (CuA reduced), 680 nm (CuB oxidized), 760 nm (CuB reduced) and 825 nm (CuA oxidized). In vitro, these absorption peaks correspond to peaks in DNA synthesis and cell attachment[17].Within this band, light tissue penetration tends to be higher with higher wavelengths; thus, wavelengths in the upper end are preferred in transcranial applications [20–26]."

https://dl.dropboxus...nzalez-lima.pdf

[lostfalco]

I just posted a few ATP formation videos over in the research thread if anyone is interested checking them out. =)
http://www.longecity...tc/#entry613793
http://www.longecity...tc/#entry613794

In the meantime, enjoy this one.

"Twin beads were attached to the gamma subunit, the F1 was attached to glass slide, ATP is added, and rotation is observed with a light microscope. Thanks to R. Berry, Oxford University"

[lostfalco]

I was looking for information on LLLT and testosterone levels, and found the following rat-study: http://biomedres.inf...y.357194742.pdf

They found significantly higher testosterone levels after treatment with a 670-nm diode laser, but the results with the 808-nm laser worries me:
"In the 808 nm wavelength group, there were such findings as an atrophy of the seminiferous tubules, disarrangement of sertoli cells, generation of giant multinucleated bodies and other deformities."

This was 360 J/cm2/day (200mW x 30min) so could the negative results simply be caused by overdoing it? Why wouldn't a scientist think of this, and try the experiment with shorter treatment periods?

I'm using a 808-nm laser too, but only for about 30 seconds on each spot.

Very interesting study. Thanks Olorin.

Don't let it worry you too much...that dose is absurdly high! In their defense, the authors do go on and talk about another study that used 830nm light:
1. "According to these authors, on histopathological examination of the testis irradiated with an 830-nm wavelength at lower doses (28.05
J/cm2), there were normal appearances of the seminiferous epithelium and interstitial tissue."

2. "These authors also noted, however, that the seminiferous epithelium and interstitial tissue were irregularly arranged following the
irradiation with an 830-nm wavelength at higher doses (46.8 J/cm2)."

3. "A biphasic dose response has been frequently observed where laser irradiation of lower doses have a much better effect in stimulating and repairing tissue as compared with that of higher doses [16]."

808nm light for 30 seconds to your brain (it has to pass through a lot of bone first) is well below dangerous levels. =)

Edited by lostfalco, 25 September 2013 - 05:52 AM.

[Strangelove]

I am looking in new options except the LEDs in ebay, Lostfalco you mentioned that wavelength and power is what is important, do you have specifics? Thanks!

Wavelengths (nm): 620, 680, 760, 825.
Most tested in humans: 808nm
Wavelengths I've had anecdotal success with: 850 and 808. 660 is good but not as good.

Power density: Do not exceed 320mW/cm2. Otherwise, just keep it low...30 seconds to a minute per spot to start with and go from there. I can do the math for you if you like...but I don't want to bore everyone unless necessary. MED applies as always. =)

"Cytochrome oxidase shows four major light absorption peaks within the red-to near-infrared band. These are determined by CuA and CuB, two of the four metal centers within the enzyme. These peaks of absorption are 620 nm (CuA reduced), 680 nm (CuB oxidized), 760 nm (CuB reduced) and 825 nm (CuA oxidized). In vitro, these absorption peaks correspond to peaks in DNA synthesis and cell attachment[17].Within this band, light tissue penetration tends to be higher with higher wavelengths; thus, wavelengths in the upper end are preferred in transcranial applications [20–26]."

https://dl.dropboxus...nzalez-lima.pdf

Very nice, thank you! I was confused about the wikipedia LLLT article, making it appear somewhat obstruse of what parameter is important. Looking on line for photons, depth of penetration and possible effects, it seems wavelength is what is really important, both for penetration and effects.

Edit to correct what I wrote, it seems higher IR wavelength, has better penetration.

I am going to continue with the same LEDs for now (until I ll receive another model) and I was wondering how much time it took, before you saw an effect?

Edited by Strangelove, 25 September 2013 - 01:11 PM.

[Barfly]

Hi, I recently received my 96 led lamp and started lasering with super promising results even after first week, started with 1 min per "area" but I am sure that some spots get some overlap due to large size of the LED lamp

I was just wondering about the progression of time used, any tips or advice here? Like, how many seconds or minutes can I add to my session weekly (monthly?) without overdoing it? Currently lasering 2 days on, one day off, 1 minute per spot. Thanks

Edited by Barfly, 25 September 2013 - 01:08 PM.

[Strangelove]

Hi Barfly, could you give a link were you bought the lamp? Thanks

[lostfalco]

Hi Barfly, could you give a link were you bought the lamp? Thanks

Hey Strangelove...have you seen my profile page? =)

http://www.longecity...1887-lostfalco/

Edited by lostfalco, 25 September 2013 - 01:21 PM.

[lostfalco]

Very nice, thank you! I was confused about the wikipedia LLLT article, making it appear somewhat obstruse of what parameter is important. Looking on line for photons, depth of penetration and possible effects, it seems wavelength is what is really important, both for penetration and effects.

Edit to correct what I wrote, it seems higher IR wavelength, has better penetration.

I am going to continue with the same LEDs for now (until I ll receive another model) and I was wondering how much time it took, before you saw an effect?

No problem. =)

Yeah, wavelength is most important. Power density is a VERY close 2nd.

Right on...if higher wavelength, then better penetration. You got it.

I saw effects within the first week...actually, just a couple of days for me. Often, the first 2 to 24 hours can be a little tiring but after that it usually gets better. Remember though...this is more like exercise so the real results come when your body builds better neurons, better mitochondria, more CCO, etc. This happens pretty quickly but many people seem to think that they will instantly be stimulated by the lasers. The reality is that a brief burst of stimulation is usually followed by tiredness. Genes are upregulated in response to the burst of stimulation and the REAL results come from the new structures that are built over time.

Check out Gonzalez-Lima for more info. This article is ridiculously good. https://dl.dropboxus...nzalez-lima.pdf

[lostfalco]

I found that it's cheapest to purchase PQQ and CoQ10 separately (at each's cheapest price, of course...remember this is by mg/$).

Very cool middpanther. What source has been cheapest/most effective for you?

[AscendantMind]

Just started on my Ubiquinol and PQQ (as well as ALCAR, alpha-lipoic acid, creatine, and my normal vitamins and minerals; the shilajit is on the way). I decided to spend a few days getting the compounds into my system before I started using the LEDs; perhaps there will be less tiredness that way.

Lostfalco, what do you think would happen if someone was on TULIP for a while and then stopped? Have you had to take a break for a while and experienced any ill effects? If, for some reason I had to stop the protocol (for example, was in a foreign country without supplement availability), I wouldn't want to experience a crash of some kind. I don't know if the mitochondria become adapted to getting "fed" with extra photons every day or so...

Edited by AscendantMind, 25 September 2013 - 01:49 PM.

[Barfly]

Hi Barfly, could you give a link were you bought the lamp? Thanks

Sure, I ordered from here: http://www.ebay.com/...=item43b92fc52c

The links posted earlier itt don't ship outside usa so I went with this seller.

Also, the lamp doesn't come with the adapter but you can sent them a message to sell you the adapter for 6$ extra.

[lostfalco]

Hi, I recently received my 96 led lamp and started lasering with super promising results even after first week, started with 1 min per "area" but I am sure that some spots get some overlap due to large size of the LED lamp

I was just wondering about the progression of time used, any tips or advice here? Like, how many seconds or minutes can I add to my session weekly (monthly?) without overdoing it? Currently lasering 2 days on, one day off, 1 minute per spot. Thanks

Awesome Barfly! Keep us updated on your progress. The further we can get away from n=1, the better. I appreciate your feedback.

Suggested progression (ya know, I'm no expert)
1. If 1 minute works well, stick with it.
2. If you choose to increase, try 15 to 30 second increments.
3. Make sure you laser at the same time each day when changing dose length. This will help you judge results/changes.
4. Keep diet/supplements fairly constant.
5. Remember, the ideal is zero minutes. Get as close to that as possible while still getting the results you want.
6. Personally...2 to 4 minutes per spot has been more than enough for me. I'm at almost 9 months now and the interconnectivity of my brain is far beyond what I ever thought possible. Just a tiny bit a day spread over time is the way to go, imo.
7. These recommendations are still WAY under the amount of light used in the studies. We are in pretty safe territory as far as I can tell. However, I'm not aware of anyone who has ever done what we are doing (light in combo with supplements in healthy brains for months (about to be years) at a time).
8. 2 days on, 1 day off is currently what I recommend and what I do. Less is more. There is (decent, though not conclusive) evidence that after 5 days straight you lose the beneficial effects and after 15 days straight damage will be evident.
9. A little 'overlap' in the regions is fine. =)

[lostfalco]

Just started on my Ubiquinol and PQQ (as well as ALCAR, alpha-lipoic acid, creatine, and my normal vitamins and minerals; the shilajit is on the way). I decided to spend a few days getting the compounds into my system before I started using the LEDs; perhaps there will be less tiredness that way.

Lostfalco, what do you think would happen if someone was on TULIP for a while and then stopped? Have you had to take a break for a while and experienced any ill effects? If, for some reason I had to stop the protocol (for example, was in a foreign country without supplement availability), I wouldn't want to experience a crash of some kind. I don't know if the mitochondria become adapted to getting "fed" with extra photons every day or so...

1. Stopping: in the Naeser study (only LEDs, not supplements) they reported a return to baseline after 1 to 2 weeks without the laser. The most I've taken off is about 4 to 5 days. I was still above my previous baseline (before starting) but I felt below the new baseline I had become accustomed to by just a little. Obviously, this is VERY subjective so take it with a grain of salt. =)
2. I don't think you'd experience a 'crash' but you would probably notice a gradual lessening of abilities (depending on which elements of TULIP you stopped). The new structures you've built while on TULIP would probably take some time to atrophy (think unused muscles).
3. Our bodies are adaptation machines and they require inputs...oxygen, water, chemical bond energy, etc. I view TULIP and LLLT (especially) as something like exercise. You add it, it upregulates genes. You stop it, those genes downregulate. Our bodies are doing this ALL the time and they are constantly making 'decisions' about which structures to keep and which ones to discard due to limited energy supplies in nature. LLLT/TULIP 'tells' our bodies that mitochondria, neurons, CCO, etc. are worth upregulating, optimizing, and maintaining. Just my opinions. =)

Quick summary: it's your genes that get used to being turned on because you 'tell' them that brain energy is the BEST use of resources. Use TULIP, eat substrates (lipids, aminos, nucleotides, etc.), build ideal brain structures. =)

[lostfalco]

Hi Barfly, could you give a link were you bought the lamp? Thanks

Sure, I ordered from here: http://www.ebay.com/...=item43b92fc52c

The links posted earlier itt don't ship outside usa so I went with this seller.

Also, the lamp doesn't come with the adapter but you can sent them a message to sell you the adapter for 6$ extra.

Nice Barfly! So, should I list this as the European LED option?

[Barfly]

Hi Barfly, could you give a link were you bought the lamp? Thanks

Sure, I ordered from here: http://www.ebay.com/...=item43b92fc52c

The links posted earlier itt don't ship outside usa so I went with this seller.

Also, the lamp doesn't come with the adapter but you can sent them a message to sell you the adapter for 6$ extra.

Nice Barfly! So, should I list this as the European LED option?

Well, most of the Europe.

Really bizarre shipping policies; I have just checked that seller and also every other "Worldwide" seller listed on ebay (all of them either from China or Hong Kong) and all of them exclude shipping to "Russian Federation, Austria, Belarus, Cyprus, Estonia, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Switzerland, United Kingdom" which is pretty baffling...

Other than that, mentioned seller was easy to communicate to regarding the additional adapter an I got my shipment in under two weeks which is really fast ( probably a bit lucky) for shipments across such distance.

Edited by Barfly, 25 September 2013 - 02:51 PM.

[Strangelove]

Thanks both Barfly and Lostfalco! I am really interested into all this, the supplementation part of TULIP included, and I ll really look into the theory, the first chance I have time.

[Barfly]

Just one more question please regarding stopping the protocol for a while:

If you stop the protocol for a longer while are all of the cognitive benefits permanently lost and you have to build from scratch? E.g. lets say you use tulip for a year and get to great mental shape, than for some reason you are forced to stop for a month or two- would it again take a year of the protocol to reach that peak performance?

Sorry if its a silly question, just really excited about your stack and trying to learn more about its principals, thanks

[AscendantMind]

Just one more question please regarding stopping the protocol for a while:

If you stop the protocol for a longer while are all of the cognitive benefits permanently lost and you have to build from scratch? E.g. lets say you use tulip for a year and get to great mental shape, than for some reason you are forced to stop for a month or two- would it again take a year of the protocol to reach that peak performance?

Sorry if its a silly question, just really excited about your stack and trying to learn more about its principals, thanks

Such a question is impossible to answer at this point, since no one has tried it yet. However, my guess would be that neural architecture would persist as long as it is used. The extra new mitochondria, however, from what I've read (and I can try to find the source) will die when no longer nourished by PQQ, which means that energy would return to baseline, but whatever new memories and learning structures you acquire would only diminish when not used (and do so more gradually).

[lostfalco]

Just one more question please regarding stopping the protocol for a while:

If you stop the protocol for a longer while are all of the cognitive benefits permanently lost and you have to build from scratch? E.g. lets say you use tulip for a year and get to great mental shape, than for some reason you are forced to stop for a month or two- would it again take a year of the protocol to reach that peak performance?

Sorry if its a silly question, just really excited about your stack and trying to learn more about its principals, thanks

No problem man. Not a silly question at all...actually, the exact opposite of a silly question. Answer: I don't know. =) I'm not aware of any studies that address this and any theorizing I could do would be no better than chance guesses.

[BigPapaChakra]

So, has anyone figured out the wavelength/power of the two different LED arrays? What is everyone's average time per spot with the LEDs specifically? I just want to make sure I don't end up over doing it. The last time I only did it for 1:30 per spot, and the most I've ever done is a little above 2 minutes per spot. I don't think that is damaging in the least bit, but I was just wondering if I should keep it at the 1-2 minutes per spot and slowly increase either frequency (rather than 1-2x per week, 2-4x per week) or the amount of spots (from F3/4 only, now doing the whole forehead, eventually the whole brain?).

Also, should I actually increase the doses of the supplements to about 20/200/200mg? I've been alternating between 20mg PQQ and 100mg CoQ10/Shilajit each, and every other day I take the LEF Mitochondrial Energy Optimizer and drop the individual PQQ, so it comes out to 100mg CoQ10/Shilajit (each), 10mg PQQ, and the other compounds in the LEF supplement stack such as vitamin B6, Carnosine, ArginoCarn*, Benfotiamine, R-ALA, and Luteolin. Again, that one with the large stack I cycle, using only once every other day. I've been trying to use these amounts so I can have the supply for as long as possible, but if I will somehow get much greater effects by almost doubling the doses, I may as well, right? Lol. Thanks for any input!

[lostfalco]

Why I love it when TULIP helps people and why I'm excited to team up with as many of you guys (many of you will outpace me) as possible in the future to attack the shared problems of ALL humanity: mirror neurons. http://en.wikipedia..../Mirror_neurons If you're a guest reader and experimenting, please join in the conversation! It only took me about 4 years of lurking before I finally shared. ha

[Keynes]

Why I love it when TULIP helps people and why I'm excited to team up with as many of you guys (many of you will outpace me) as possible in the future to attack the shared problems of ALL humanity: mirror neurons. http://en.wikipedia..../Mirror_neurons If you're a guest reader and experimenting, please join in the conversation! It only took me about 4 years of lurking before I finally shared. ha

http://youtu.be/t0pwKzTRG5E

Not to further derail the thread, but why do you call them "the shared problems of all humanity"?

[EncyclopediaBrown]

Anyone thought of substituting Idebenone for CoQ10?

[lostfalco]

So, has anyone figured out the wavelength/power of the two different LED arrays? What is everyone's average time per spot with the LEDs specifically? I just want to make sure I don't end up over doing it. The last time I only did it for 1:30 per spot, and the most I've ever done is a little above 2 minutes per spot. I don't think that is damaging in the least bit, but I was just wondering if I should keep it at the 1-2 minutes per spot and slowly increase either frequency (rather than 1-2x per week, 2-4x per week) or the amount of spots (from F3/4 only, now doing the whole forehead, eventually the whole brain?).

Also, should I actually increase the doses of the supplements to about 20/200/200mg? I've been alternating between 20mg PQQ and 100mg CoQ10/Shilajit each, and every other day I take the LEF Mitochondrial Energy Optimizer and drop the individual PQQ, so it comes out to 100mg CoQ10/Shilajit (each), 10mg PQQ, and the other compounds in the LEF supplement stack such as vitamin B6, Carnosine, ArginoCarn*, Benfotiamine, R-ALA, and Luteolin. Again, that one with the large stack I cycle, using only once every other day. I've been trying to use these amounts so I can have the supply for as long as possible, but if I will somehow get much greater effects by almost doubling the doses, I may as well, right? Lol. Thanks for any input!

My opinion (others can definitely chime in here =))

1. Try 1 minute per spot/region, whole brain, 2x per week.
2. Keep your supplements 'as is' while you change laser dosage for at least 2 weeks, maybe longer. You're young and your minimalist approach is very wise imo.
3. Re-evaluate at 2 weeks. If change, then change to greater weekly frequency (3x/wk, every other day, etc). (You may not need to change at all)

Reason 1: my (already good) results skyrocketed when I went from 2 regions to whole brain. Stay minimal at any one dosing time though...let the results build. We are creating a virtuous feedback loop between our mitos and our nDNA (my theory/guess). The higher quantity and quality of mito output and number tells our brains to build more mitos and more neurons and then the output/quality go up even more and our brain builds more etc, etc.

Reason 2: brain ATP seems regulatory. Therefore, more regions = more regulation. (Again, guessing. There is extrapolation involved here from hippocampus to all brain. By no means established science. The only thing established here is my fallibility.)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3757511/ Sorry, I know you've heard me talk about 'regulation' way too many times. =)

LEDs are 850nm.