4029 replies to this topic

[noobray]

Hi, I'm very interested in trying LLLT. Could someone tell me the exact model number of the 48 LED array?

I live in Italy, and the suggested ebay vendor does not ship here: I found this one http://www.ebay.it/i...=item4d021c9386 it looks very similar, same 850 nm wavelenght.

I think it's just a Chinese made device marketed all over the world, but I'm not a LED expert so I'm not sure about it.

Thank you. I'm sorry for the silly question

[middpanther88]

Noobray, looks exactly like my model but don't quote me.

[lostfalco]

tl;dr--did we decide if you can take the TULIP supps multiple times/day?

This is just my personal opinion...but I think it's probably fine. http://www.longecity...930#entry613773

[lostfalco]

I've played with an LED helmet shining onto my head. See my video below.

Hey, what's up Scott/zawy? Good to hear from you again man. If you're cool with it...can you tell us about the results you've had with your helmet. I remember last time we talked you said it made you tired. Have you been able to find a dose that works for you?

For those of you that don't know...Scott has one of THE best sites on LLLT/photobiomodulation on the web. I strongly recommend that everyone check it out here. http://heelspurs.com/led.html

[zawy]

I think when I tried at a really high dose while playing halo, I did not see an improvement in playing. But I couldn't sleep good at all that night. Really wired, but I do not know if it was in a positive way that would help someone during exam week. Too much halo does this too me anyway, but it seemed pronounced with the light. I also tried a memory game with no noticeable difference. That unit has been sold to someone with a dementia relative for $1200 and I think someone here might want another and my wife says she'll do the LED placement work. $1200 for 1512 5 mm LEDs is about like ebay. The parts are about $400. If anyone else wants something, just give me specs. My contract with buyer of my prototype construction services will include keeping me informed of the results.

[Nigel Meech]

Sorry but tl;dr - Can I get a link to where I can purchase an affordable TULIP device that can be operated by a five year old

[lostfalco]

Sorry but tl;dr - Can I get a link to where I can purchase an affordable TULIP device that can be operated by a five year old

Sure =) http://www.longecity...1887-lostfalco/

[Noottropics7]

MoA means mechanism of action, nothing about electrode placement.

I'd go for LLLT EoD and tDCS when needed.

Hi Nattzor,

Thanks for your clarification and suggestion. I take it that "EoD" means "End of Day," right? If I may ask, why would you suggest LLLT over tDCS? You don't have to answer this, but if you, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks anyways.

so then to answer Lostfalco, I am not sure if there is a consensus as to the mechanism of action for tDCS.

[BigPapaChakra]

Falco, or any others with experience, before I take time away from mitochondrial studies, at someone my age (19 in a bit over a month), with my context (HPPD; possible adrenal or thyroid insufficiency developed around age 16; head injuries; exposed to toxins and exposed to massive EMFs via power lines and more), would it be beneficial to take low doses of Pregnenolone? It's honestly got me very, very intrigued, especially as an addition to TULIP. Perhaps even on an 'as needed' basis on days of increased emotional or mental stress. I just listened to some interviews with Dr. Peat on hormones, as well as brain tissue regeneration, and he spoke about the extreme safety of pregnenolone in supraphysiological doses, literally having no hormonal impacts in healthy individuals, and in stressed individuals it simply lowered stress hormones. He claims to have used 3 grams a day for a year with no adverse effects, only positive effects, although he said it wasn't much better than lower doses that can be used. He only stopped due to the cost of using it. He alluded to 10-15mg of Pregnenolone snapping adults out of depressive states, as well as helping others cope with trauma and stress. I would prefer to have hormonal testing before supplementing a hormone, but then again, before I saw evidence pointing in a negative direction, I supplemented Vitamin D and it isn't necessarily a vitamin....

Secondly, anybody using the 850nm LEDs on accupuncture/accupressure points? In the Naeser study, both TBI patients used various points such as Kidney 1, but the paper never specified for how long or how often. The other day I stimulated Kidney 1 on both feet for 30 seconds after doing about 6 points at my forehead, but I didn't notice anything major - maybe increased time? Different wavelength? I'm interested, though, in using them for accupuncture/pressure points.

Edited by BigPapaChakra, 02 October 2013 - 05:30 AM.

[Nattzor]

Hi Nattzor,

Thanks for your clarification and suggestion. I take it that "EoD" means "End of Day," right? If I may ask, why would you suggest LLLT over tDCS? You don't have to answer this, but if you, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks anyways.

EoD means every other day. I recommend it EoD because it seems to work best and have the superior safety profile.

tDCS gives best effect if taken daily, but I assume you want to try different placements, thus making that fact useless. The safety for using it daily at the same placements is not studied.

That are the reasons for my recommendations.

[BigPapaChakra]

There are two or three depression studies using it 20min/day for 5 days straight, but that seemed a bit excessive to me, though they had some astounding results that seemed to last very long. I may start experimenting with tDCS soon - I only used it once in the past for 10 minutes, but it didn't work well due to not having the electrodes snug against my head. Maybe after this month, I'll drop LLLT for 2 weeks, do a week of tDCS using the depression study montages, 5x20 minutes, and then wait another week or two before starting LLLT again. But I don't know, LLLT seems to be doing a lot for me, even with minimal usage.

[crow]

I feel obliged to assume the role of the skeptic and ask - why laser ?

Laser light photons and lamp light photons are the same thing, so you should be able to achieve the same results with both.

Of course since lasers are coherent sources, they are easier to manipulate - you can make narrow and short laser pulses, which can yield higher intensities than incoherent sources like lamps and sunshine. However, it sounds to me like you guys are talking about low powered lasers working at low intensity configurations, so I just can't see how this is supposed to work any better than pointing a green lamp to your head.

Am I missing something ?

[Godof Smallthings]

Two speculations with no evidence, just throwing them out there for discussion:

1. What is the relationship (if any) between LLLT and age? From the people posting in this thread, it appears that the younger posters have more positive results.

2. Would 50Hz vs. 60Hz electricity utility frequency affect the 'regulation' results at all?

[Mr Matsubayashi]

2. Would 50Hz vs. 60Hz electricity utility frequency affect the 'regulation' results at all?

LEDs work on DC (Direct Current). Direct Current does not have a frequency component (ignoring harmonics). A LED device cannot plug straight into the wall without a small rectifier in-between (poor example, wall socket voltages will fry most semiconductors regardless of AC or DC)

It is possible to also run LEDs on a square wave output provided the DC offset prevents reverse bias current. Reverse biasing a LED rapidly degrades them. In this mode of operation you can apply a frequency to the LED if you wish.

There has been some talk about having the LEDs blink at natural frequencies of the brain, there is conflicting evidence for this idea.

Edited by Mr Matsubayashi, 02 October 2013 - 09:19 AM.

[Nattzor]

I feel obliged to assume the role of the skeptic and ask - why laser ?

Laser light photons and lamp light photons are the same thing, so you should be able to achieve the same results with both.

Of course since lasers are coherent sources, they are easier to manipulate - you can make narrow and short laser pulses, which can yield higher intensities than incoherent sources like lamps and sunshine. However, it sounds to me like you guys are talking about low powered lasers working at low intensity configurations, so I just can't see how this is supposed to work any better than pointing a green lamp to your head.

Am I missing something ?

Most of us use LED, it's only about 2-3 who use lasers afaik. Lasers are used because the optimal wave-lengths are easier to get, but LEDs are starting to get more research because it's cheaper.

[lostfalco]

I feel obliged to assume the role of the skeptic and ask - why laser ?

Laser light photons and lamp light photons are the same thing, so you should be able to achieve the same results with both.

Of course since lasers are coherent sources, they are easier to manipulate - you can make narrow and short laser pulses, which can yield higher intensities than incoherent sources like lamps and sunshine. However, it sounds to me like you guys are talking about low powered lasers working at low intensity configurations, so I just can't see how this is supposed to work any better than pointing a green lamp to your head.

Am I missing something ?

No problem...skepticism is an important part of science/critical thought. =)

Why laser/LEDs? The scientific studies (thousands of them) over the past 40+ years on various body parts and 5+ years on the brain (dozens of them) have shown VERY promising results with virtually no side effects at therapeutic doses (wavelength and energy density, primarily). Additionally, LLLT has a fairly plausible mechanism of action (moa).

Why not a green lamp? Wavelength matters in order to get the proper penetration through blood, water, the skull etc. The best wavelengths (nm) so far seem to be in the red to near-infrared range around 830, 810/808, 660, and 1064. We're still learning though. =)

Please check out this full-text pdf for an excellent survey of the transcranial LLLT literature and feel free to ask any more questions you might have. =) https://dl.dropboxus...nzalez-lima.pdf

There are also more links to books, journal articles, and videos at these locations.
http://www.longecity...1887-lostfalco/
http://www.longecity...biophysics-etc/

[lostfalco]

Two speculations with no evidence, just throwing them out there for discussion:

1. What is the relationship (if any) between LLLT and age? From the people posting in this thread, it appears that the younger posters have more positive results.

2. Would 50Hz vs. 60Hz electricity utility frequency affect the 'regulation' results at all?

The studies/theory seem to indicate that older people will have better results. They are more likely to have mitochondrial dysfunction due to a greater number of accumulated mutations in the mtDNA (among other things). The Naeser study patients were older (of course, that's only two =)). http://dspace.mit.ed...le/1721.1/58558

[lostfalco]

Falco, or any others with experience, before I take time away from mitochondrial studies, at someone my age (19 in a bit over a month), with my context (HPPD; possible adrenal or thyroid insufficiency developed around age 16; head injuries; exposed to toxins and exposed to massive EMFs via power lines and more), would it be beneficial to take low doses of Pregnenolone? It's honestly got me very, very intrigued, especially as an addition to TULIP. Perhaps even on an 'as needed' basis on days of increased emotional or mental stress. I just listened to some interviews with Dr. Peat on hormones, as well as brain tissue regeneration, and he spoke about the extreme safety of pregnenolone in supraphysiological doses, literally having no hormonal impacts in healthy individuals, and in stressed individuals it simply lowered stress hormones. He claims to have used 3 grams a day for a year with no adverse effects, only positive effects, although he said it wasn't much better than lower doses that can be used. He only stopped due to the cost of using it. He alluded to 10-15mg of Pregnenolone snapping adults out of depressive states, as well as helping others cope with trauma and stress. I would prefer to have hormonal testing before supplementing a hormone, but then again, before I saw evidence pointing in a negative direction, I supplemented Vitamin D and it isn't necessarily a vitamin....

Secondly, anybody using the 850nm LEDs on accupuncture/accupressure points? In the Naeser study, both TBI patients used various points such as Kidney 1, but the paper never specified for how long or how often. The other day I stimulated Kidney 1 on both feet for 30 seconds after doing about 6 points at my forehead, but I didn't notice anything major - maybe increased time? Different wavelength? I'm interested, though, in using them for accupuncture/pressure points.

My guess would be that it is unlikely that you need pregnenolone at age 18/19 (even given your history). I read every book and study on preg I could find and the evidence does seem to indicate that high doses (500mg) are well tolerated at 3+ years or more. The 'amount' of evidence is still surprisingly sparse for such a central hormone though. If you really want to try it, I would recommend starting very low (5mg) since it can be stimulating. Tbh, I think your money/time is probably better spent on quality nutrition first. Just my opinion. =)

[lostfalco]

I think when I tried at a really high dose while playing halo, I did not see an improvement in playing. But I couldn't sleep good at all that night. Really wired, but I do not know if it was in a positive way that would help someone during exam week. Too much halo does this too me anyway, but it seemed pronounced with the light. I also tried a memory game with no noticeable difference. That unit has been sold to someone with a dementia relative for $1200 and I think someone here might want another and my wife says she'll do the LED placement work. $1200 for 1512 5 mm LEDs is about like ebay. The parts are about $400. If anyone else wants something, just give me specs. My contract with buyer of my prototype construction services will include keeping me informed of the results.

Have you checked out this recent review of the transcranial LLLT literature? https://dl.dropboxus...nzalez-lima.pdf

In my experience, low doses followed by sleep/rest/breathing are what cause the beneficial effects. I usually laser before bed now and it's been working really well for me. What is the energy density of your helmet? Output per LED? I'd be willing to bet you could get a full dose in a matter of minutes (or less). Anything beyond that will almost certainly make you tired. Here's what I've been doing lately (I think we last messaged in May or something). http://www.longecity...1887-lostfalco/

Last question...what would be your number one recommendation for us to read in order to learn how to build our own helmets as effectively but inexpensively as possible? I really want to copy something like this and make it affordable to as many people as possible. http://www.ebay.com/...=item43b2993bc7

Thanks again for your site zawy! I find myself back on it every few weeks or so. I really appreciate your work and willingness to share it.

[zawy]

The literature has shown since the late 1980's that there is no biological difference between lasers and LEDs. "Laser" just sounds "cooler" and therefore carries a great marketing advantage.

Someone asked for info concerning sunlight and this activation of mitochondria. I mention some of this in my article that lostfalco linked to on the last page (35), but I'll repeat here: the mitochondria are activated by roughly 4 different wavelengths approx 630, 670, 760, and 830. 850 nm is close enough and I have not noticed a difference between my 830 and 850. There's no science that says the 2 reds act differently than the 2 infrared peaks. One wavelength could be more efficient in light output or depth penetration, but I have not been able to tell a difference and they all seem to penetrate equally well, going through the palm of my hand in a dark room only with the most powerful units (using video camera to observe the infrared). Sunlight is very strong in these wavelengths, as well as $5 haolgen light bulbs which I discuss using with water in zip lock bags to block the heat, as I discovered 10 years ago when getting a black and blue stumped pinky toe to turn a nice pink and stop hurting in only 2 minutes of amplified halogen light (spot light with snow globe to block heat acted like a lens). The 4 wavelengths are activating 2 metal ion complexes that are in the last H+ proton pump (a set of several protiens) of the electron transport chain. The proton pumps are the energy converters of the food energy (NADH, etc) into cellular energy ATP. An electron is needed in the conversion process to pump H+ just outside of the mitochondria to a higher energy level before it "falls" back inside through another protien complex to make ATP inside the mitochondria. Only 1 photon is used per activation, so this is really at the interface between energy and mechanical action. The wavelengths kick-start the pump at 4 different points in the pumping cycle, but the pump has only 1 final output: more ATP. They know fairly well the action and timing of the pump cycle so that it is possible to time the 4 wavelngths in a sequence of pulses to use the light more efficiently, but this will only mean shorter treatment time with less energy and the devices I make for myself are powerful enough. However for the brain it might be useful. I was sellinig one unit that simply timed the pulses to not waste the light and it actually seemed to work better than my more powerful units. I used a 555 timer directly trigger an IRF530 power mosfet to turn them on and off, a very simple circuit if you want to try it. I used 50 uS on and 250 uS off (see wiki for the alternative astable circuit for the 555 timer, only 2 resistors and 1 capacitor needed). The pump's full cycle is roughly 250 uS. This is far faster than any other LED drivers you'll probably see for sale.

ANYWAY, trying to get back to Sunlight: since the photon's energy is utlized to change the state of the pump, it reduces the need for food energy and my iffy calculations indicate this could make us 0.27% photosythetic. So there is a definite evolutionary driver. Since the genes for this pump were inherited at the very dawn of respiration, from bacteria that made mitochondria possible, way before blood evolved, I believed blood evolved "red" because there is a sharp cut-off in blood's light absorption spectrum where the first wavelength becomes active. In other words, blood evolved to allow this light activation to occur beneath the skin, in all animals. The first small animals had a much higher surface to volume ratio and so the percent of cells affected was 100%, verses our 10 or 20% or so, without any clothes. The bacteria's descendents are light-activated "purple bacteria" and the pump has changed very little, so close that they can study the bacteria's pump to understand ours.

[zawy]

lostfalco, if you open my youtube video (last page) in the youtube web site, you can see more details. It's a whopping 250 W, about 75 mW/cm^2, needing a box fan on eachh side of the head to cool off the exposed circuitry. They want only $40 dollars and free shipping for the heavy enclosed 96 LED you link to, so if the board can be extracted and works on 12 V, it would cost $640 for 15 boards, the same number of LEDs as mine (they are basically the same LEDs, but they don't have it mixed with red). The red LEDs I have cost twice as much. My power supply was about $50. The arrays need to not include a series resistor so you can over-drive the LEDs like I do. I'm thinking about making a pulsing unit. It would be 'off' 5 times longer than 'on', so it could be 1,500 watt pulses. But really, the brain needs a constant supply of energy, so I think longer sessions of weaker light is better. Bald head in the sun all day would be about perfect.

Speaking of which, animals that work during the day instead of night are benefitting from the lack of sun at night to prevent excess energy conversion from the light. If you lay out in the sun in shorts, you can immediately see the effect occuring as an increase in your breathing rate..immediately, so it's not a heat effect. You need more O2 to convert food energy tpo ATP, getting ready for activity. It should soon slow down as an excess of unused ATP starts blocking more ATP production. BTW, I seem to get a mental boost from coconut oil which is supposed to be from supplying more ketones that pack more energy for the brain..

[Mr Matsubayashi]

An electron is needed in the conversion process to pump H+ just outside of the mitochondria to a higher energy level before it "falls" back inside through another protien complex to make ATP inside the mitochondria. Only 1 photon is used per activation, so this is really at the interface between energy and mechanical action. The wavelengths kick-start the pump at 4 different points in the pumping cycle, but the pump has only 1 final output: more ATP. They know fairly well the action and timing of the pump cycle so that it is possible to time the 4 wavelngths in a sequence of pulses to use the light more efficiently, but this will only mean shorter treatment time with less energy and the devices I make for myself are powerful enough. However for the brain it might be useful. I was sellinig one unit that simply timed the pulses to not waste the light and it actually seemed to work better than my more powerful units. I used a 555 timer directly trigger an IRF530 power mosfet to turn them on and off, a very simple circuit if you want to try it. I used 50 uS on and 250 uS off (see wiki for the alternative astable circuit for the 555 timer, only 2 resistors and 1 capacitor needed). The pump's full cycle is roughly 250 uS. This is far faster than any other LED drivers you'll probably see for sale.

Can you elaborate on this?

• Are the four wavelengths the same?
• What is the timing?
• Can the photon be absorbed at a less optimal time of the pump cycle, hence the benefit of timed exposure?
• Will the pump cycles synchronize with timed and limited exposure?

I have some ideas on LLLT, i would appreciate feedback

• Calculations for exposure talk about J/cm on the surface of the brain, this should be expanded to consider what volume of the brain is receiving an effective dosage.
• A certain intensity is needed to have any observable effect
• Cellular heating may be an issue with high energy applications
• Cellular heating can be mitigated using Pulse Width Modulation (PWM)
• Light will scatter as it transmits through skin, bone, brain

I wonder if a LLLT device with a very high intensity + PWM + short treatment times will be the most effective.

Side effects may include permanent hair removal :P

[Q did it!]

Hey zawy,

The idea of lower intensity, pulsing, varying/multiple wave lengths and longer durations/dosing has got me intrigued as well as your post in general.

You mention/compare LLLT to natural light and its involvement with energy production in the body. This gives for me gives rise to the concept of lighting a room, say an office/someplace one spends considerable amounts of time, with LLLT but with the right low intensity, pulsing etc. over/under normal (non-blue light) artificial lighting conditions to mimic but to more so improve upon natural daylight. Intensifying desired wave lengths for optimality and negating of harmful waves such as UV rays.

This is just an idea that popped into my mind upon reading and digesting your post, #1071 in this thread (hate having to quote such a lengthy post). What is your take on this? If it has merit not to mention practicality I could see some pretty cool uses. This is of course inferring that the correct setup involving lighting, wave lengths, pulsing etc. was established .

Edited by Q did it!, 02 October 2013 - 12:32 PM.

[Nattzor]

ANYWAY, trying to get back to Sunlight: since the photon's energy is utlized to change the state of the pump, it reduces the need for food energy and my iffy calculations indicate this could make us 0.27% photosythetic.

Hmm, I thought it meant that we'd use more glucose/FFA (due to the ATP boost, I'd assume some was "free" energy but also an increase in the usage of glucose/FFA) thus we could theoretically increase our metabolism. But what you say makes more sense.

[zawy]

In response to these last two posts, let me more clear: I am against LLLT because it is expensive and weak compared to LEDs and not different. LED is better. $5 halogen lights might be best, but I prefer LEDs for heat reasons.

Concerning pulsing, I just added a long section to my article:

http://heelspurs.com/led.html#pulse

I do not actually recommend reading the above unless you are already in the business of making LED units.

This web site is making my embedded youtube helmet video not available, so here it is again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-8ToUQEc3E

I tried my LED helmet for 10 minutes this morning at 250 Watts to see if it would wake me up, but I didn't notice anything. I tried the 48 LED infrared for 10 minutes a day for about 3 weeks and did not see any hair growth. There's only 1 thing I know light therapy works on: injuries beneath the skin. I remain skeptical about dementia, but next week I should be getting feedback from the use of my helmet on somone with it. There is a mitochondria-deficient syndrome that it might help. I remain very skeptical about wrinkles and aged skin and spots. What little research there is, is poor and seemingly financed by someone selling something. I've tried it on spots a little, but not enough to say the results were negative. An internet friend who copied my halogen light bed claims it helped his skin, reducing spots.

Concerning an office setup, I do not see a benefit, nor a feasible setup. Light therapy does not seem to help healthy cells. But sunlight, all wavelengths, is dam good for you. If heat was not a probably the healthiest lighting is halogen because it is like the sun, but the intensity needed to be nice and bright for day work is about 300 W for a small room with white cieling and walls. Lighting is one reason I work just as much on heliostat heating (reflecting sunlight into house windows). See my instructable:
http://www.instructa...at-for-heating/

[zawy]

Yes, we would use more glucose/FFA, but those are the "inputs" to the krebs cycle. The energy output of the krebs cycle is NADH that is then used in the electron transport chain to make more H+ that makes more ATP. So the light pushes for a buildup of H+ that pushes more ATP into the mitochondria, but a buildup of ATP blocks (causes a buildup of) H+ from being used which blocks the light from having an effect, so EXERCISING with light therapy is a good idea, like jogging on the beach. Remember a lot of the old weight lifters got started on the beach, and it wasn't just to show off. Breathing more when first exposed to sun shows the krebs cycle is being more active (it's the CO2 producer), which is because the light is building up H+ that reduces the NADH that creates an electrostatic pull (chemical concentration gradient) on the krebs cycle.

If the cell is injured, it needs more energy, and it is often compromsied in its ability to genergate the energy, so the light really helps injured cells. Remember, laying out in the Sun has been used for sick people forever (until we got "smart" and shoved them into bacteria-infested hospitals) and it's not just the vitamin D that helps.

Edited by zawy, 02 October 2013 - 01:39 PM.

[Mr Matsubayashi]

I tried my LED helmet for 10 minutes this morning at 250 Watts to see if it would wake me up, but I didn't notice anything. I tried the 48 LED infrared for 10 minutes a day for about 3 weeks and did not see any hair growth.

Did you feel extra tired after that exposure? A common report I'm hearing is tiredness brought on by over exposure. Over exposure has been defined as a fraction of what you exposed yourself to.

Off topic, for hair regrowth a derma roller and spectral DNC-L has worked wonders for me.

Do you have plans to trial the pulse circuit on your head? I would love to know the peak power output and whether you noticed any effect.

Edited by Mr Matsubayashi, 02 October 2013 - 01:56 PM.

[lostfalco]

Just a quick refresher on the electron transport chain and ATP synthase for those of you following along with the discussion. =)

[lostfalco]

I tried my LED helmet for 10 minutes this morning at 250 Watts to see if it would wake me up, but I didn't notice anything. I tried the 48 LED infrared for 10 minutes a day for about 3 weeks and did not see any hair growth.

Did you feel extra tired after that exposure? A common report I'm hearing is tiredness brought on by over exposure. Over exposure has been defined as a fraction of what you exposed yourself to.

Off topic, for hair regrowth a derma roller and spectral DNC-L has worked wonders for me. :)

Do you have plans to trial the pulse circuit on your head? I would love to know the peak power output and whether you noticed any effect.

Yeah zawy, I'm with Mr.M. Your dose is extremely high.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to get the impression that you mainly focus on the primary effects (as they are called in the literature) of LLLT and not the secondary effects. The immediate stimulation caused by transcranial LLLT is short lived and the real benefits come later from axonal branching, increased capillary growth, gene upregulation, etc. This is why the Barrett/Gonzalez-Lima study showed benefits at 7 and 14 days after a single treatment. This is also why this same study showed benefits for healthy people with healthy cells and not just for damaged, energy hungry cells as you mentioned earlier. Genes upregulate and build new structures over time.

Check out these two studies and let me know what you think. =)
1. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23200785
2. https://dl.dropboxus...nzalez-lima.pdf

Edited by lostfalco, 02 October 2013 - 02:23 PM.

[Psionic]

That unit has been sold to someone with a dementia relative for $1200 and I think someone here might want another and my wife says she'll do the LED placement work. $1200 for 1512 5 mm LEDs is about like ebay. The parts are about $400. If anyone else wants something, just give me specs. My contract with buyer of my prototype construction services will include keeping me informed of the results.

Zawy, please check out alibaba's aliexpress shop, there are offers for 1000s of 5mm led diode IR LED 850nm for as low as $50 (0.05/piece) up to 0.12/piece for the blue (I really dont know whats the difference between color of the diode if they have same 850nm vawelength?) So I think the price can drop massively.

Also in your helmet video description you said that "10 minutes on high intensity seems to make it where I sleep a lot less like 5 hours instead of 7". We were talking here about using 30seconds-2 minutes per spot, so your 10 minutes seems very high, isnt it too much or where is the safe and still effective limits?