Lostfalco's Extensive Nootropic Experiments [Curated]
#1141
Posted 05 October 2013 - 11:45 PM
I'm concerned that the upper layer of the cortex is getting too much of the light. Looking at the graph below, it appears reasonable that there will be situations where 2% of the light energy will be blocked by the upper 1 mm layer of the cortex (if 3% makes it through skull and 1% is remaining after 1 mm of cortex depth). Given that my device is capable of supplying 0.1 W/cm^2, 2% will be 0.002 W into a volume of cortex that is 0.1x1x1 cm^3 = 0.1 cm^3, or 0.02 W/cm^2. A human is about 60,000 cm^3 and burns about 100 W, which is 0.0016 W/cm^3, so my device has been heating the upper neurons of my cortex 10 times more than my body heat which does not sound good at all. However, we can withstand over 30 mW/cm^2 for 4 hours a day from the Sun, so 100 mW/cm^2 must not be very dangerous. The blood circulation certainly must have the ability to carry the heat away. If the full body gains 10 F, then this ability is lost and death is imminent. 0.02 W/cm^3 would raise the water-like cortex 2 C in 100 seconds if the heat were not carried away. Ultrasound which goes about 5 times deeper (5 cm) than light therapy and a safety limit is said to be 500 mW/cm^2 when applied to the brain. Ultrasound has been used to improve mood. They also said electrical stimulation improved memory. Ultrasound can be used as high as 1 W/cm^2 for the hip and I've very successfully used probably over 2 W/cm^2 light therapy with a 75 W halogen and water-filled snow globe for a broken pinkie toe.
#1142
Posted 06 October 2013 - 01:43 PM
Here's a recent study on pulsing with transcranial LLLT. =)Do we have any evidence that pulsing is better than continuous? Is the idea to have a momentarily high intensity pulse with deep penetration that might be problematic at continuous levels?
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3196530/
#1143
Posted 06 October 2013 - 03:16 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2933784/
CONCLUSION:
There is some evidence that pulsed light does have effects that are different from those of continuous wave light. However further work is needed to define these effects for different disease conditions and pulse structures.
My Thoughts: both continuous AND pulsed seem to be very effective though slightly different. Continuous is much more affordable and accessible right now but it will be very interesting to try differing parameters in the future. There is still a lot of exciting work to be done! =)
Edited by lostfalco, 06 October 2013 - 03:25 PM.
#1144
Posted 06 October 2013 - 05:55 PM
1. General Rule: 3 or 4 moderate dose weekly treatments best.
2. Mester: small dose with intervals better than too frequent dosing.
3. Laser therapy cumulative. Therefore, if too frequent then doses will add together. If additive threshold reached, then lose benefits OR cause inhibition/damage.
4. Possible option: treat frequently for 1 or 2 weeks, then at longer and longer intervals (1x/wk).
5. If no reaction after 4-5 treatments, then do not laser for 2-4 weeks to test for ‘late reaction’.
#1145
Posted 07 October 2013 - 02:10 AM
#1146
Posted 07 October 2013 - 02:54 AM
Thanks man!Good thread, very interesting. How do we know that the benefits people are gaining from this isn't just from the PQQ + COQ10 combination? Did anyone do the lllt and get obvious benefits from it without using the PQQ+COQ10?
I used the laser for 6+ months with very good results before adding the PQQ/CoQ10/Shiliajit. I know that Opaque, Skp, and a few others did so for a few months as well.
Also, all of the 30+ scientific studies (5 in humans) have used just transcranial LLLT without the supplements as have the thousands of non-brain LLLT studies over the past 40 years. =)
Two TBI patients that measurably improved their cognitive capacities by up to 2 standard deviations on some tests: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3104287/
Excellent summary of the transcranial LLLT studies: https://dl.dropboxus...nzalez-lima.pdf
For more info and recommendations: http://www.longecity...1887-lostfalco/
#1147
Posted 07 October 2013 - 04:11 AM
I'm not sure how I'm going to react to it as I have been using a TENS device for electro stimulation to my brain and had good results but it looks like these work through different mechanisms. We'll see what happens.
Edited by basicallyyes, 07 October 2013 - 04:13 AM.
#1148
Posted 07 October 2013 - 05:00 AM
#1149
Posted 07 October 2013 - 05:02 AM
#1150
Posted 07 October 2013 - 09:14 AM
I'm going to make a 2,000 LED helmet at 850 nm with adjustable pulsing from 4 to 4,000 Hz with 20% duty cycle.
How much do you plan to sell it for?
#1151
Posted 07 October 2013 - 09:16 AM
#1152
Posted 07 October 2013 - 01:05 PM
After reading this to the last page, one thing I probably missed is: How essential is the operating current? Maybe one of you can have a quick look at the one I ordered, which has 1000mA. And yeah, it's a bit expensive. But my eyes started bleeding after searching the web for 4 hours, so I got bored and bought the one which ships fastest and looks best. So don't even think about telling me that this one won't work, hahaha.
http://www.ebay.de/i...f-/230876092908
Thanks again to Falco and all the others. I enjoy reading every single post from you guys! I will try to give back as much as I can, as soon as all my stuff arrives. The supplements could take a while from the USA to Germany. But the LED should be here soon. I will start LLLT without the supps because curiosity got the better of me Or shouldn't I? Will I benefit without them, too?
EDIT: Ok, I saw you guys used the lasers without the supps at the beginning.
Oh, and another hug for pointing me to: The Machinery of Life and Prometheus Rising. I will dive into these books as soon as I can!
Edited by clustrfcuk, 07 October 2013 - 01:12 PM.
#1153
Posted 07 October 2013 - 01:28 PM
You'll improve without the supplements, think of them like icing on the cake.
#1154
Posted 07 October 2013 - 03:21 PM
Wow! Hi there everyone! What an amazing thread. After several hours of reading, lurking and researching I finally ordered all my stuff to start the TULIP regimen. Then it's time for me to contribute to this awesome community. I am looking forward in dropping my current regimen and see what all the fuzz you guys are making is all about
After reading this to the last page, one thing I probably missed is: How essential is the operating current? Maybe one of you can have a quick look at the one I ordered, which has 1000mA. And yeah, it's a bit expensive. But my eyes started bleeding after searching the web for 4 hours, so I got bored and bought the one which ships fastest and looks best. So don't even think about telling me that this one won't work, hahaha.
http://www.ebay.de/i...f-/230876092908
Thanks again to Falco and all the others. I enjoy reading every single post from you guys! I will try to give back as much as I can, as soon as all my stuff arrives. The supplements could take a while from the USA to Germany. But the LED should be here soon. I will start LLLT without the supps because curiosity got the better of me Or shouldn't I? Will I benefit without them, too?
EDIT: Ok, I saw you guys used the lasers without the supps at the beginning.
Oh, and another hug for pointing me to: The Machinery of Life and Prometheus Rising. I will dive into these books as soon as I can!
This one has 850nm the recommendation is 650nm. I think the 850nm can still work, but look into different timing etc. But there are other people who can tell you more Good luck
#1155
Posted 07 October 2013 - 03:31 PM
This one has 850nm the recommendation is 650nm. I think the 850nm can still work, but look into different timing etc. But there are other people who can tell you more Good luck
Not exactly, the recommended should be 620, 680, 760 or 820 or anything close to them. Most use 850 afaik.
#1156
Posted 07 October 2013 - 04:11 PM
This one has 850nm the recommendation is 650nm. I think the 850nm can still work, but look into different timing etc. But there are other people who can tell you more Good luck
Not exactly, the recommended should be 620, 680, 760 or 820 or anything close to them. Most use 850 afaik.
Lol your right. I even have the 850. Please ignore my comment
#1157
Posted 07 October 2013 - 05:24 PM
http://www.oirf.com/...-biophoton.html (3D Biophoton Therapy unit) this seems pretty cool, I don't know the pricing but I'd bet it's expensive.
http://www.amajordifference.com/ I found this through Dr. Gordon, who has some amazing bio-hacking/anti-aging/disease reversal protocols. He seems to be in fantastic condition for a 78 year old, lol. I believe Dave Asprey referenced him in a youtube video, I'll have to check. There are some peer reviewed studies on this device
http://www.sunlighten.com/ For those with a nice budget to work with, lol Different saunas that have some customization options. There is a far infrared sauna, and a full spectrum red sauna, as well as a portable 'sauna'. They're really low in EMF output too, so that's a plus, haha.
http://www.bemer-par.../what-is-bemer/ A neat device with tons of uses. Here is a source of references on its applications: http://www.bemer-par...fically-proven/
Also, is 850nm good for wound/burn healing? I used it yesterday after spilling boiling water on my hand and it quickly started improving and today there is no sign of injury. I'm also wondering just how often I can use the LEDs on the same acupuncture/pressure points - does anyone have any ideas? I stimulated Kidney 1 and Bl 67 for 1 minute, each foot, so a total of 4 minutes. There were no specifications on wavelength/dose in the Naeser studies, except in regards to one meridian and it was 670nm and the LEDs are 850nm. I wanted to know if I could 'treat' again today. There are meridians/points that have been used in acupuncture (and I believe with red lights) for treating visual disorders, and visual oddities/symptoms are a part of my HPPD. Any input would be great!
Edited by BigPapaChakra, 07 October 2013 - 05:25 PM.
#1158
Posted 07 October 2013 - 06:46 PM
Cool. Then it's most likely nothing serious. I've had small eyelid twitches like that in the past (2 or 3 years ago). I found that reducing caffeine intake seemed to help (of course, this was just correlation and not necessarily causation). Also, it's not inconceivable that the LEDs might help. I would try 15 to 30 seconds with the 48 LED and then wait for 3 or 4 days before deciding whether to laser again. This has been done in thousands of studies on nerves and muscles with no side effects whatsoever in this dose range. It might work for twitching, it might not...however, I think it's worth a try. =)Yes you can see the twitch, very small.
#1159
Posted 07 October 2013 - 06:54 PM
I haven't thoroughly studied acupuncture at this point in my research and I'm not sure what I think about it, but here's something that might be of interest. =)Yep, haha, that's why I asked. They just don't make that many specifications in terms of dose, but I'm really interested in trying this.
Lasers Med Sci. 2005 Sep;20(2):68-73. Epub 2005 Jul 1.
Laser acupuncture induced specific cerebral cortical and subcortical activations in humans.
Siedentopf CM, Koppelstaetter F, Haala IA, Haid V, Rhomberg P, Ischebeck A, Buchberger W, Felber S, Schlager A, Golaszewski SM.
Source
Department of Radiology II, University Hospital of Innsbruck, Anichstrasse 35, 6020 Innsbruck, Austria. christian.siedentopf@fmri-easy.de
Abstract
As recent studies demonstrated, acupuncture can elicit activity in specific brain areas. This study aims to explore further the central effect using laser acupuncture. We investigated the cerebral effects of laser acupuncture at both acupoints GB43 with functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI). As a control condition the laser was mounted at the same acupoints but without application of laser stimulation. The group results showed significant brain activations within the thalamus, nucleus subthalamicus, nucleus ruber, the brainstem, and the Brodmann areas 40 and 22 for the acupuncture condition. No significant brain activations were observed within the placebo condition. The activations we observed were laser acupuncture-specific and predominantly ipsilateral. This supports the assumption that acupuncture is mediated by meridians, since meridians do not cross to the other side. Furthermore, we could show that laser acupuncture allows one to design a pure placebo condition.
Edited by lostfalco, 07 October 2013 - 06:55 PM.
#1160
Posted 07 October 2013 - 07:16 PM
This one has 850nm the recommendation is 650nm. I think the 850nm can still work, but look into different timing etc. But there are other people who can tell you more Good luck
Not exactly, the recommended should be 620, 680, 760 or 820 or anything close to them. Most use 850 afaik.
Lol your right. I even have the 850. Please ignore my comment
Yes, I saw that most if you are using the ones with 850 nm. But my question was more about the 1000mA. I dont know that much about electrics, but I thought I read something here about 350mA as maximum in terms of power output. Or something like 25mA/cm2.
Am I mixing something up? Not that I put a device in my face with way to much power and have 48 little dots on my skin
Thanks for your help guys!
#1161
Posted 07 October 2013 - 07:49 PM
I totally know what you mean about studies not transferring to real life. The great thing about LLLT is that we have a pretty plausible primary mechanism (CCO absorption) and A LOT of other possible contributors to LLLTs effects. The role of photons in biology has been studied pretty extensively for a while now...we are about to see an explosion of its use as mainstream science accepts its validity.Thanks, I read through the studies and saw the results, I just far too often see these great results from studies and then realize no real benefit when put to an out of lab, real world test. Opaque, skp and the others showing results without the PPQ+ definitely gives me better hope to how things will turn out for me. I just bought a 96 LED and did my first round about 6 hours ago, will report back on the results...so far nothing but I wasn't expecting anything this soon.
I'm not sure how I'm going to react to it as I have been using a TENS device for electro stimulation to my brain and had good results but it looks like these work through different mechanisms. We'll see what happens.
This brings up another point that I haven't mentioned yet about mechansims of action. A lot of people seem to think that 'Cell A is affected by LLLT ONLY IF Cell A absorbs a photon'. This is not the case. In fact, there is strong evidence that 'if Cell B absorbs a photon then Cell B will communicate with Cell A and enhance both Cell B AND Cell A'. I'll show you guys the research soon (I'm away from my library right now). Tuner and Hode talk about this extensively in 'The Laser Therapy Handbook' (2010). http://www.prima-boo...apyHandbook.php
Anyway, cool you're gonna give LLLT a try. I hope it works for you man. If not, I'll buy you some Salt Lick or something to make up for it. =)
Edited by lostfalco, 07 October 2013 - 07:53 PM.
#1162
Posted 07 October 2013 - 07:54 PM
Can't wait to see what you come up with man!I'm going to make a 2,000 LED helmet at 850 nm with adjustable pulsing from 4 to 4,000 Hz with 20% duty cycle.
#1163
Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:30 AM
I'm going to make a 2,000 LED helmet at 850 nm with adjustable pulsing from 4 to 4,000 Hz with 20% duty cycle.
Zawy, why ditch the 660's? Do you not think they confer much benefit outside of placebo for the visible light?
BIgpapa, great links. I suggest giving dr. wilson's link here a read re: near vs far infrared. VERy illuminating ;-) I've had great results with NIR saunas over the standard FIR.
http://drlwilson.com...R VS. FAR I.htm
Hey guys, just wanted to post some things I found last night, a couple unrelated to TULIP, and a couple directly related:
http://www.oirf.com/...-biophoton.html (3D Biophoton Therapy unit) this seems pretty cool, I don't know the pricing but I'd bet it's expensive.
http://www.amajordifference.com/ I found this through Dr. Gordon, who has some amazing bio-hacking/anti-aging/disease reversal protocols. He seems to be in fantastic condition for a 78 year old, lol. I believe Dave Asprey referenced him in a youtube video, I'll have to check. There are some peer reviewed studies on this device
http://www.sunlighten.com/ For those with a nice budget to work with, lol Different saunas that have some customization options. There is a far infrared sauna, and a full spectrum red sauna, as well as a portable 'sauna'. They're really low in EMF output too, so that's a plus, haha.
http://www.bemer-par.../what-is-bemer/ A neat device with tons of uses. Here is a source of references on its applications: http://www.bemer-par...fically-proven/
Also, is 850nm good for wound/burn healing? I used it yesterday after spilling boiling water on my hand and it quickly started improving and today there is no sign of injury. I'm also wondering just how often I can use the LEDs on the same acupuncture/pressure points - does anyone have any ideas? I stimulated Kidney 1 and Bl 67 for 1 minute, each foot, so a total of 4 minutes. There were no specifications on wavelength/dose in the Naeser studies, except in regards to one meridian and it was 670nm and the LEDs are 850nm. I wanted to know if I could 'treat' again today. There are meridians/points that have been used in acupuncture (and I believe with red lights) for treating visual disorders, and visual oddities/symptoms are a part of my HPPD. Any input would be great!
#1164
Posted 08 October 2013 - 09:55 AM
While it's easy to find pictures that showcase the different brain regions, I can't for the life of me find a high-resolution one that could be used to measure where to place the LEDS on the skull for specific regions.
Can anyone help out?
#1165
Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:06 AM
please help!
My dad suffered a stroke last night and is now in the hospital. I know doctors do the best they can but I want to help. I think the Naeser study mentions LLLT being helpful for stroke victims. Which wavelength would be appropriate? Will PQQ+Q10+Shilajit be helpful? What about Cerebrolysin? LostFalco I would greatly appreciate your input.
#1166
Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:39 AM
Hey Shorty...I'm really sorry to hear about your dad. I wish him the best and hope for a full and speedy recovery for him.Hello guys,
please help!
My dad suffered a stroke last night and is now in the hospital. I know doctors do the best they can but I want to help. I think the Naeser study mentions LLLT being helpful for stroke victims. Which wavelength would be appropriate? Will PQQ+Q10+Shilajit be helpful? What about Cerebrolysin? LostFalco I would greatly appreciate your input.
I will be happy to share as long as you remember that I am in no way a medical doctor or scientist and this is just information (I know you know this).
With that said, here are the treatment parameters from the main stroke study in humans. http://stroke.ahajou.../38/6/1843.long
Quick Summary: laser whole brain, 2 minutes per region/spot
Longer Discussion (please read only if you have time):
Stroke Study Parameters
1. Shaved head.
2. 808nm wavelength
3. 2 minutes per site, 20 sites
4. Total 1 Joule/cm2 over entire cortex
850nm light should work (The LEDs vary in output, are very close to the absorption peak, and will hit the 830nm sweet spot).
"There is evidence that suggests that a primary mitochondrial chromophore for photobiostimulation is cytochrome c oxidase.5,6,14 This enzyme complex contains 2 copper centers, CuA and CuB. The primary chromophore for the NTS wavelength is in the CuA center which has a broad absorption peak around 830 nm in its oxidized form. The NTS (NeuroThera Laser System) delivers energy at 808 nm, which is within this absorption peak, and is able to penetrate into the brain noninvasively. Cytochrome c oxidase is a terminal enzyme in the cellular respiratory chain and is located in the inner mitochondrial membrane. It plays a central role in the bioenergetics of eukaryotic cells by delivering protons across the inner membrane, and thereby driving the formation of ATP by oxidative phosphorylation."
Whole Brain, 2 Minutes per spot, 20 spots, 1 Joule/cm2
"A complete treatment regimen consists of removing hair from the patient’s scalp, followed by NTS application (active treatment or sham/control treatment) on 20 predetermined locations on the scalp for 2 minutes at each site. The predetermined sites are identified by a cap which is placed on the patients head. The system is designed to deliver ≈1 Joule/cm2 of energy over the entire surface of the cortex regardless of stroke location. The sham procedure is identical to the active procedure with the exception that no laser energy is delivered to the patient from the device."
I genuinely wish you the best during this difficult time. Medical care has improved greatly over the past few decades and there is definitely reason to hope. Please keep us updated.
Edited by lostfalco, 08 October 2013 - 12:02 PM.
#1167
Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:36 PM
#1168
Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:26 PM
How crazy is it that I got my LED device literally immediately after my dad had a stroke?
The doctor hadn't even heard of LLLT yet which surprised me a bit. However I managed to convince her that the treatment would be a good and most likely risk free idea which surprised me even more.
The only thing I didn't do was shaving my dad's head. He has light hair though so there probably was a lot of direct LED to skin contact.
Should the treatment be resumed daily or was it a one-time thing in the study?
#1169
Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:34 PM
Falco: What is your experience or opinion on lasering when having a fever/feeling a cold coming on?
#1170
Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:36 PM
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