4029 replies to this topic

[Kreaken]

I just wanted to chime in here after having devoured the entire thread all this last week (not unlike drinking from a firehose.. whew!). I plan to develop a regime based on this discussion that will likely start in about two months from now, and would like to ask for feedback regarding preliminary setup and testing so that I might give back some solid, useful n=1 as my contribution to the effort.

I got here through a renewed research interest in my piracetam/aniracetam trial(s) (and nootropics in general) from years ago, and have since 'seen the light' in LLLT (oh boy LF, you're humor is rubbing off on me!). I plan to tackle some of the newer, related threads and the 'required readings' before starting. So bear with me as I catch up on my rusty organic/biochemistry/biology and really wrap my head around it in the next two months. My finances are still.. "Student-like"... So I really appreciate the effort to find the most affordable solution.

I also have an advanced Sun intensity spreadsheet for my solar heating activities, allowing me to know sun position and intensity at any time, location, and solar collector orientation.

Zawy, I am interested in seeing this if possible. I would use it to cross-reference a similar spreadsheet I have made that quantifies the kWDC to kWh resource at roughly 80 or so U.S. cities (using NREL data). Being relatively new to solar science, I am naturally full of doubt about the accuracy of my results. I would appreciate you kindly describing your process or point me in the right direction, perhaps in PM if it would otherwise derail this thread.

Just listened to our boy Abelard over on the Smart Drugs Smarts podcast http://smartdrugsmar...m-potentiation/ Seems like a really cool dude. It was def interesting to hear him talk about the discovery and development of CILTEP. Check it out if you guys have the time.

LF, this was a great podcast. I also gave the other ones a quick read and thought one was interesting: the guest resigned to 'doing nothing' for enhancement, figuring it was better than trying to interfere at all. I went ahead and made a pre-order for the CILTEP/Caffeine supplements they offer. Is there any reason to believe that taking that up until my LLLT trials will confound any results? I am not currently taking any supplements, and haven't for a long while.

[1.] [...] But they were using 1064[nm] which is about half the penetration of my 850 nm if not my 660 nm. Also, it's not one of the target wavelengths like mine, which is about another factor of 2 reduction in action[...]
[2.] Of course if our ancestors were exposed to more sun in the summer "food months", then they had more hours in the day to work. Then in winter, they would sleep more to conserve energy. So it not only encourages muscle activity during the Sun hours, it seems to allow more thinking and awake time during the "work season".

1. I could be mistaken, but wouldn't longer wavelengths exhibit deeper penetration depths? I am speculating based on how p-n junctions in solar cells are designed - the high intensity photons are absorbed first, while lower energy photons sometimes go completely through the cell only to be reflected back and finally absorbed after almost 2*(cell thickness)!

2. I haven't looked at Jack Kruse's writings in a while (a deluge of complex ideas and nearly incoherent writing, iirc), but I know he advocates ultimately allowing seasonal variation in the circadian rythym - which would be hard to do if one was artificially emulating Summer-day stimulation with LLLT all year around. What are your (everyone's) thoughts on this?

[AscendantMind]

Hello guys,

please help!

My dad suffered a stroke last night and is now in the hospital. I know doctors do the best they can but I want to help. I think the Naeser study mentions LLLT being helpful for stroke victims. Which wavelength would be appropriate? Will PQQ+Q10+Shilajit be helpful? What about Cerebrolysin? LostFalco I would greatly appreciate your input.

Shorty, I also strongly suggest that you give your father MCT oil as well. The brain's ability to uptake glucose is often reduced with age and injury (like stroke), but the neurons can still use MCT for energy. MCTs will provide energy to the neurons and help prevent excitotoxicity from ATP depletion as well as assisting in recovery. MCTs can also get into neurons without needing transport via the blood. They are used for all types of brain damage, from concussion to Alzheimer's Disease.

It is also 100% safe (66% of coconut oil, a dietary staple of various groups of humans for thousands of years, is MCT).

Best wishes for his recovery.

Edited by AscendantMind, 08 October 2013 - 06:07 PM.

[lourdaud]

edit

Edited by lourdaud, 08 October 2013 - 06:52 PM.

[zawy]

I just noticed an old question: I "ditched" 660 because 850 goes deeper in the cortex and penetrates skin better. Penetrate skull and water about the same. Mixture is still a good idea because they may compliment the way CCO pumps and it is more natural. 850 nm only circuit is also easier to make. The data I saw indicates goging above about 900 nm starts having less penetration, and 1064 nm is not an active wavelength anyway. Concerning the stroke study, subsequent 8x larger study by the same group showed no statistical significance. As I said before, the previous study was small and 1 patient having a different result would mean it would not reach significance. Later they did a pooled analysis of the two and concluded there was a benefit. Most of the doctors involved are financially integrated with the laser manufacturer. There is a contradiction in the studies: one says 10 mW/cm^2 for two minutes at the surface (way too low) and another says 1 J/cm^2 on the cortex which is really good. I found their device for sale on ebay for $1700 (a discard unit after completion of the study) and the power supply is 300 watts, so it's powerful enough to deliver 1 J/cm^2 at the cortex in 2 minutes, so I don't know. One study says skin burns are possible, which means it really would be powerful. It seems like they should have made more effect to treat the location of the stroke rather than the whole brain. None of the papers give details on how it was used, or how they know the cortex surface received ~1 J/cm^2. Most of our evolution was near the equator, so I don't go for the year-long cycle idea. My friend came back over for lunch today to get another treatment for fun. Actually he probably came for the sweet wine he had yesterday. But he didn't hesitate to put on the helmet. We worked on it to make it more comfortable.

Edit: in looking at work on rats with their device used by a different group, they specifically say the 7.5 mW/cm^2 was the amount received at the brain, so more likely they were attempting to provide 10 mW/cm^ in humans at the brain level, which is good if they did good calculations. They also said they shaved the head, another good sign. The only bad thing I see is that they make no mention of how they estimate skin penetration which is not cool because that is the largest source of error, probably a factor of 10 or so. It's also not cool in that they make no mention of how strong the laser source was at the skin surface. They estimate skull bone penetration based on fresh cadavers.

Edited by zawy, 08 October 2013 - 08:04 PM.

[zawy]

The "transcranial" rabbit study where they applied the laser at 7.5 to 262 mW/cm^2 to get 0.9 J/cm^2 to 31 J/cm^2 were all measurements made at the cortex surface, not at the skin. They noted the linear relationship up to 4.5 J/cm^2. The stroke study was more conservative in trying to give 1 J/cm^2 at the cortex. The 2013 paper by Rojas and F. Gonzalez-Lima has a wonderful listing of all these papers, but calls the doses "transcranial" which is wrong by a factor of 50 since roughly 2% of the light makes it to the cortex. This explains why Sun is stronger than most of these papers: the secondary review papers are sometimes wrong. They incorrectly report the primary papers. To be fair the 2010 review did sneak in the phrase "cortical fluence" but you had to read very carefully and make an assumption in order to draw the right conclusion. The 7.5 mW/cm^2 for 2 minutes for 0.9 J/cm^2 needs to be multiplied by a factor of 50 if you want to translate it into a device being applied to the skin which is 375 mW/cm^2 and 45 J/cm^2. Lasers were required. I think it's a lot better to use 37 mW/cm^2 LEDs for 20 minutes instead of 370 mW/cm^2 lasers for two minutes.

Edited by zawy, 08 October 2013 - 09:43 PM.

[zawy]

NeuroThera's patents show they were assuming in 2006 that 5% of the light made it through the skin and skull. So they were likely applying about 20 J/cm^2 to the scalp. Kind of low compared to other work that estimated 2% penetration, which is my estimate for the 808 nm and 850 nm. Patent: http://www.google.co...tents/US7575589 I came across a private powerpoint slide show someone put online and it's amazing how many complications they were trying to overcome simply because of the problems with lasers, mainly that they cause local heating in the skin and the distribution once it reaches the brain is not even. It also makes penetration calculation more difficult. Optimistically you could say they just didn't know LEDs and lots of focused sunlight is just as good. But more likely it's because if they got FDA approval for LEDs, anyone could have copied it and got FDA clearance for an equivalent device. The complications of lasers gives them a monopoly on the treatments once FDA approval is granted because all their expense would have to be duplicated for their patented laser design. Same situation with pharmaceuticals. So people with brain injuries and strokes will continue to not have a strong LED helmet in the ambulance or emergency room waiting on them. There's not enough many in making pre-approved LEDs devices to push them through the medical community hurdles because competitors can simply come in and undercut the costs.

[lostfalco]

Ok, I'm not saying I necessarily believe these ideas...but it is definitely worth watching both videos for everyone who has the time.

Props to BigPapaChakra for pointing me in the direction of this theory. I'm def gonna look into the published studies on this!

Basically, these videos discuss the experimental evidence related to light/infrared energy and it's effects on water in biological (and other) systems. Very interesting and applicable to what we are doing here (if true, of course).

Edited by lostfalco, 09 October 2013 - 12:58 AM.

[lostfalco]

[lostfalco]

Shorty: Hope your Dad recovers well and quickly!

Falco: What is your experience or opinion on lasering when having a fever/feeling a cold coming on?

I usually keep the lasering fairly constant and take a little extra PQQ/CoQ10/Shilajit if I feel something coming on. Your immune system uses a ton of ATP (for power, signalling, etc.) so the more you can optimize it the better. =)

[Psionic]

Good idea about water formation! I know that once the water is freezed it forms crystals similar to snow flakes in it and they stay formed up to 38°C (100°F) http://www.masaru-em...er-crystal.html

Does anybody else experienced decreased need for food with lllt? I know my findings can be very subjective because I am one year in mostly keto-adapted state so I dont feel hunger and stopped exercise recently for a while. But theoretically, with the light as a source for ATP it can have some explanation, what do you think?

[Nattzor]

Idk of this has been posted, but great paper on LLLT:
http://www.collegeof...e-and-brain.pdf

[Raisinthehouse]

Falco, that ez water video is CRAZY.

Could this be an explanation for the primary effect of LLLT?

[AscendantMind]

Good idea about water formation! I know that once the water is freezed it forms crystals similar to snow flakes in it and they stay formed up to 38°C (100°F) http://www.masaru-em...er-crystal.html

Masaru Emoto's work has, sadly, been shown to lack scientific basis: http://is-masaru-emoto-for-real.com/

[Raisinthehouse]

I lack the necessary skill set in biochemistry to be able to discern the validity of his claims. If something amazing comes out of this line of research then great, if not? nothing lost, nothing gained.

[megatron]

After a lot of back and forth I've finally decided to give TULIP a go. I can't really wait to get started, so I'm looking to purchase the 96 LED from within the EU. However, the cheapest I can find is this. I know I can get it a lot cheaper from the US, but I really don't want to wait three weeks to a month before getting it, contra one week from the EU.

Offtopic: Damn, this thread is so darn long! Even though I've made it up to page 30, it feels like I'm never getting to the end of it.

[Overman]

Hello all,

Notice: The Vetrolaser output is now higher due to a design change.

I've much to say, but for now I'll just request some help answering some questions regarding the above point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vetrolaser came in the mail today.

I begin reading the accompanying paperwork/instruction manuals, and the first thing I look at is a separate page that reads as follows:


"IMPORTANT INFORMATION CHANGES FROM THE USER MANUAL AS OF 05-15-13

(points 1-3 are irrelevant to my question, they regard the battery, a new charging plug location, and a change to the battery slot design)
[...]

4. Each of the three 808 nm diodes is 175mW. This is about double the power of our previous 808 lasers prior to 2013. We increased the power to shorten treatment times even though the earlier models were just as effective. [...] "

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay so in light of this, I'm wondering what everyone's take on the surface power density for this thing is now.
Are we in the safe zone here?

I've run some calculations and have gotten a few different results, which made me realize I don't trust my (lack of) expertise on this particular topic.

So falco, opaque... I'm assuming you guys both ended up with the older version running 808nm 66mW per diode (from what I can tell opaque was just on the border of this transition, but I'm not sure which side), which gives you somewhere between ~200mW and ~250mW for the SPD. Is that correct?

Did anyone else end up with the newer device?

What is everyone's take on the utility/safety of this newer device?



Any reports regarding any possible answers/solutions to these questions will be helpful, thanks guys.

[basicallyyes]

Falco: I know this has mainly become a lllt thread, but I'd like to know more about the original post:

What brand / dosage do you take of the sodium butyrate? What did you specifically experience from it?

I have also been reading on epigenetics, have you put any of this to work for yourself? If so, what exactly?

[lostfalco]

Wow! Hi there everyone! What an amazing thread. After several hours of reading, lurking and researching I finally ordered all my stuff to start the TULIP regimen. Then it's time for me to contribute to this awesome community. I am looking forward in dropping my current regimen and see what all the fuzz you guys are making is all about :)

Oh, and another hug for pointing me to: The Machinery of Life and Prometheus Rising. I will dive into these books as soon as I can!

That sounds great C-fcuk! Looking forward to hearing your experiences.

Yeah, I really like Machinery. It's an excellent visual introduction to what is going on in the cell. I've also started compiling some YouTube videos in order to give everyone an even better visual idea of energy gradients, molecular biology, cellular respiration, etc. Check 'em out here (I'll be adding more soon). http://www.youtube.c...s5oOkOKbyBsxdrQ

Edited by lostfalco, 10 October 2013 - 11:16 AM.

[lostfalco]

I vaguely remember seeing a picture in this thread which showcased where the different brain-regions are located on the outside of the skull, but can't seem to find it.

While it's easy to find pictures that showcase the different brain regions, I can't for the life of me find a high-resolution one that could be used to measure where to place the LEDS on the skull for specific regions.

Can anyone help out?

Joe's post from September 7th is quite detailed...is this what you were thinking of? http://www.longecity...720#entry610562

Check his google links for diagrams. =)

Edited by lostfalco, 10 October 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[lostfalco]

I just wanted to chime in here after having devoured the entire thread all this last week (not unlike drinking from a firehose.. whew!). I plan to develop a regime based on this discussion that will likely start in about two months from now, and would like to ask for feedback regarding preliminary setup and testing so that I might give back some solid, useful n=1 as my contribution to the effort.

Thanks for contributing man! The more "N's" we have the better we will be able to analyze commonalities/differences and figure out optimal regimens for everyone. I (we) genuinely appreciate it.

I got here through a renewed research interest in my piracetam/aniracetam trial(s) (and nootropics in general) from years ago, and have since 'seen the light' in LLLT (oh boy LF, you're humor is rubbing off on me!). I plan to tackle some of the newer, related threads and the 'required readings' before starting. So bear with me as I catch up on my rusty organic/biochemistry/biology and really wrap my head around it in the next two months. My finances are still.. "Student-like"... So I really appreciate the effort to find the most affordable solution.

I'm REALLY sorry to hear about my humor rubbing off on you. I hope that TULIP makes up for this immeasurable tragedy. =)

For some quick biochem refreshers, check out this YouTube page. http://www.youtube.c...s5oOkOKbyBsxdrQ I'm gonna be sorting and organizing the videos a little better later today but I think 'seeing' biology is invaluable. And, of course, the inimitable Khaaaan! is a pretty good teacher. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajsNJtnUb7c

LF, this was a great podcast. I also gave the other ones a quick read and thought one was interesting: the guest resigned to 'doing nothing' for enhancement, figuring it was better than trying to interfere at all. I went ahead and made a pre-order for the CILTEP/Caffeine supplements they offer. Is there any reason to believe that taking that up until my LLLT trials will confound any results? I am not currently taking any supplements, and haven't for a long while.

I def like Jesse's Smart Drugs Smarts podcast. There are a few episodes where he was clearly just winging it, but there have also been a number that were very informative imo. http://smartdrugsmarts.com/

Yeah, it might confound results but I really like CILTEP...so...I'd say give it a go if you've never tried it and see if it works for you. I think Abelard has found something very cool here.

Edited by lostfalco, 10 October 2013 - 12:52 PM.

[lostfalco]

For those of you that want a (relatively) quick overview of some of the things I've tried...check out my first three posts here. They're a little dated but distill a lot of info from this woolly mammoth of a thread. That'll give you an idea of the insanity you've gotten yourself into. =) http://forum.bulletp...g-extravaganza/

http://www.dailymail...ed-Siberia.html

Edited by lostfalco, 10 October 2013 - 01:37 PM.

[zawy]

In reference to the link given above in post #1182 above: this is the 2nd paper I've seen by Rojas and Gonzalez-Lima that mistates the doses in several studies that were applied directly to the brain. They list them in a "transcranial" table which means across the scalp and skull bone. Their discussions do not clarify this which indicates they may not be aware of the difference. Comments in the TULIP threads indicate people had read these papers and not understood the proper dose.

They are probably wrong in completely dismissing combined wavelengths without a reference based on an argument that assumes CCO is like a single molecule or enzyme. Calling CCO an enzyme is like calling the space shuttle an airplane. I do not think CCO evolved to make combined wavelengths like the sun useless. It's not simply knocking CCO into or out of a simple redox state. There are several redox locations that can be in states independent of the other locations. However, it might be that 830 nm and 630 nm at the same time or 760 and 660 at the same time could counteract each other because they operate on CuA in the first case, one for oxidation and the other for reduction, and same situation for CuB in the 2nd case (760 and 660).

Otherwise, it's a great introductory paper. Here it is again: http://www.collegeof...e-and-brain.pdf

Edited by zawy, 10 October 2013 - 03:32 PM.

[Joe Cohen]

I don't want to turn this into a diet thread, but I noticed a lot of people here think high fat diets are a way to boost performance. While it may work for a small segment of the population, in my opinion, I don't believe it works for most.

Here's why:
Low Carb Diet vs High Carb Diet


Diet is the most important building block and if you get that wrong it's an uphill battle.

[lostfalco]

Check out this quick little video introduction to LLLT. I don't know about you guys, but I'm quite fond of my 'horse laser'. =)

Edited by lostfalco, 10 October 2013 - 10:47 PM.

[lostfalco]

Here's a brief discussion of LLLT by one of the foremost photobiomodulation experts in the world, Harvard professor Michael Hamblin.

[kassem23]

Speaking of all these cognitive improvements, and whatnot, have any of you actually recorded your results either through Dual-N-Back or Cambridge Brain Sciences. If not, please do. It would add to the credibility of the whole endeavour. The processing speed you people are experiencing sounds absolutely amazing.

[swen]

I don't want to turn this into a diet thread, but I noticed a lot of people here think high fat diets are a way to boost performance. While it may work for a small segment of the population, in my opinion, I don't believe it works for most.

Here's why:
Low Carb Diet vs High Carb Diet


Diet is the most important building block and if you get that wrong it's an uphill battle.

Thanks for the post.

But, I think the poster is talking about going low-carb for an extended period of time. I think most people still eat carbs daily of every few days. Personally I eat carbs every evening, just don't in the morning or afternoon.

But maybe in the future, I will try to eat oatmeal in the morning just as an experiment

[Psionic]

Joe: yes you are right, every person has different metabolism and thats it. I see more interest in the blog post to personal attacking someone who is making money from bulletproof, its his business, not yours. Drinking coffee is bad for gallbladder and spleen, excess fat overloads liver and kidneys. Most studies in your blog are descibing short term effects of high fat and I had same symptoms as you and rats in the studies. I recomment reading Dr Kruse on Epi-Paleo, the full adaptation of body to maximum utilization of fat metabolism can take up to 2 years, so making conclusions after only a few months is shortsighted. And not all animal fat are bad, bird fat (such as ostrich) are very rich in unsaturated fats (opposed to beef or pork). Did you checked reddit.com\r\keto ?

Edited by Psionic, 11 October 2013 - 10:21 AM.

[zawy]

Concerning the Vetrolaser, 175 mW times 3 is 0.525 W. That's the same as 30 LEDs. 96 LED device on ebay is much better, covering a much larger area. The laser would be good for arhtritis in the fingers, and small localized injuries, maybe even good for a knee or shoulder injury, but I prefer 25 W for the shoulder and knee. A large area like the brain needs 200 W for 10 minutes and is the most the head can take without too much heat, if a fan is used. All the old papers used 830 nm lasers and all the researchers agree that 830 nm is much better. Maybe 808 nm has FDA approval for something so that they can sell them.

[lostfalco]

Idk of this has been posted, but great paper on LLLT:
http://www.collegeof...e-and-brain.pdf

I second this. Excellent paper. Thanks Nattzor!