4029 replies to this topic

[lostfalco]

My aforementioned positive effects seem to be long lasting btw. Better than I could've hoped for!

Edit: it's 48* LED, not 46 of course!

That's awesome Keynes! How are the results holding up at present?

After about two weeks of not using LLLT in any blinded experimental purpose, I'm gonna do a session tonight and continue the experiment. Will try to be done in 2 months and then publish the results.

Cool Nattzor. Def looking forward to some quantification. Sorry if you've already mentioned this...are you using cambridgebrainsciences to measure results?

Edited by lostfalco, 06 November 2013 - 04:09 AM.

[hephaestus]

Don't know if it's a common occurrence but my 96 LED lamp just stopped working after a week.

[formergenius]

I have a 12V 1mA adapter. Electricity isn't my strong suite.. can anyone confirm whether this can be used for the CCTV 48 LED array?
I think my answer is in the thread already, but I'd like to be certain I won't fry my lamp.
Now more than ever I could use something that actually works, so here's hoping Should be here any day now.

[Godof Smallthings]

I have a 12V 1mA adapter. Electricity isn't my strong suite.. can anyone confirm whether this can be used for the CCTV 48 LED array?

I assume you mean 1A rather than 1mA? 12V 1A works - it is what I use for my 48 LED array.

I googled this question myself and the answer I found was that a higher amperage is not a problem as the device will only take as much current as it needs.

[formergenius]

Yes that's what I meant.. my bad. Cool, thanks!

[lostfalco]

Check out 11:12 through 12:07 for Dr. Pollack's view on how light's interaction with water creates a proton gradient in mitochondria.

Edited by lostfalco, 06 November 2013 - 02:26 PM.

[Keynes]

My aforementioned positive effects seem to be long lasting btw. Better than I could've hoped for!

Edit: it's 48* LED, not 46 of course!

That's awesome Keynes! How are the results holding up at present?

It's great so far. I've kind of gotten used to my new baseline to be honest, in the beginning I walked around wondering when I'd snap back (I didn't). I finally got my PQQ + CoQ10 + Shilajit (Life Extension) this Monday. More tired than usual these couple of days, but I can't really attribute it to the supps, unfortunately my sleep schedule is completely out of whack (my main thing to sort out right now). I am wittier, more social and have less tip of the tongue experiences are some other pros.

[Nattzor]

Cool Nattzor. Def looking forward to some quantification. Sorry if you've already mentioned this...are you using cambridgebrainsciences to measure results?

I'll sadly have to start later (this weekend, got some school stuff). I use http://www.quantified-mind.com/ for this.

[zawy]

You two who said the 96 LED gets hot after 5 min......are you touching the glass to your skin? Do you have dark skin? Trying to send it through dark hair? I have a 140 LED unit that is pretty much the same and the glass gets surprisingly hot. "Surprisingly" because glass is not supposed to absorb too much of the 850 nm. From my experience, light-colored skin (and little tan) from these units should not get too hot for the skin at 5 minute mark unless it is a really good (strong) device. If after 15 minutes it's not hot in light skin, then the unit is not very strong. So be proud of the device if it's getting hot in simple light-colored skin in only 5 minutes. That means your treatment time should be 20 minutes instead of 30 for 1 J/cm^2 delivered to the brain at 2% transmission. Ideally you want the LEDs pressing against the skin directly. I plan to do a lot more videos for my web page which I'll duplicate here. I want to show how pressing into the skin can give you 10 times the treatment in many cases. The glass in the cover blocks about 15% of the light. 8% from reflection losses, and the rest from absorption in typical soda-lime glass that is green from iron impurities when you look at it from the side. Take off the cover and apply directly to skin gets hotter a lot faster, but treatment time is at least 1/3 as long. I am going to make a whole body unit of 5,000 LEDs and measure my breathing rate increase at different pulsing methods and publish the results. Your breathing rate in large systems increases temporarily as a result of needing more oxygen to generate the ATP. You can see the effect in less than 15 seconds before your body temperature increases if you jump out into the sun in a bathing suit. Try it: measure exhale volume 6 times with a 1 gallon zip lock bag in the sequence, 1 minute sun, 1 minute shade, 1 minute sun, 1 minutes shade, 1 minute sun, 1 minutes shade. Then try to explain the results by any other theory.

Edited by zawy, 06 November 2013 - 08:09 PM.

[zawy]

My 1,500 LED unit of 660 nm and 850 nm was used by someone for a relative who has a serious case of dementia. I believe the setting was adjusted to about 150 W and I believe they both used it consistently for 15 minutes twice a day. 150 W per 1500 LEDs is 100 mW/LED power supply, therefore about 30 mW light/LED at 1.65 LEd/cm^2 gives 50 mW/cm^2. The dementia patient has grey hair so I'll estimate penetration to be 2%. Therefore each 15 minute treatment was 0.9 /cm^2. In any event this was certainly not a weak dose. They used a large fan to keep the exposed circuits and head relatively cool.

Here are their comments:

Received unit 10/15/2013.

10/18/2013:
"We've both been using it twice per day at 15 minutes at the setting you dialed in. Morning and between 6-8 PM. It's hard to say at this point exactly what the effects are for [relative]. Most immediately it seems to brighten his mood, make him a bit more conversational. His sleep has been good.

I quite like using it. I can't pinpoint exactly why.. but i do feel pleasant and calm for a couple hours afterwards."

11/6/2013:
"It's been a few solid weeks of consistent usage now, and beyond some initial subjective effects, it does not seems like my father is benefiting. The only effect I observe and he feels is getting very tired/dozy afterwards. He also has begun to dread using it. We would like to return it if that is still satisfactory to you. It's too bad, as I quite like it, but i guess i could try building the simple IR array one in the future."

Edited by zawy, 06 November 2013 - 08:25 PM.

[Nattzor]

No idea about the normal dosages, but have you considered dropping the dosages a bit zawy? The results seem to bulk up and too much seems to lead to no benefit at all. Do you think it could be that he has gotten too much? (Haven't really looked into studies for a while, so idk)

[zawy]

Yes, it's very possible the dose is too high. I recommended he drop back to half. Actually half every other day. That way he can compare on days and off days. I also think 30 minutes after meals would be best to make use of the food energy and compounds.

[Keynes]

I'm gonna start doing the supps every other day from now on I reckon, might be a bit much of that right now. I did some cambridge brain sciences memory testing, and whilst I still have a hard time breaking 7 simultaneous items (no matter the test), I did manage 8 (haven't before). Whole process went smoother overall. I haven't been practicing this, and it's a small change, but still.

A free course from Harvard that's on now. "The Fundamentals of Neuroscience". Don't know the depth of it yet, just started checking it out, but the animations and music alone make it worthwhile. Immensely pleasant thus far! (I'm procrastinating the dull reproductive systems and embryology I should be doing right now...)
http://www.mcb80x.org/

[BigPapaChakra]

http://www.cell.com/...550413111003883 modulation of PGC-1 transcriptional factor increases lifespan

[formergenius]

Just received my 48 LED array.. I know I read how to test it somewhere in this thread, but I'm so scatterbrained I can't seem to find it.
I believe it should either heat up when covering the light sensor for a few minutes, or alternatively light up on camera?
All I have is my built in laptop camera, would it show on this?

[Godof Smallthings]

Connect to power in a dark/semi dark room, then place the lamp close to a surface and you should be able to see a very faint red glow from the LEDs or reflected on the surface.

[formergenius]

Thanks! Apparently the adapter I was using wasn't connecting snugly, so I took an old 12V 1.5A adapter and it works!
Gonna give it a whirl later/tonight, full-skull 1 minute per area.

[zawy]

Even in a well-lit room you should see the faint red glow of 850 nm. 880 nm will barely show. With eyes adjusted to the dark and the LED shining directly into/against the eye, you can see 940 nm and sometimes the bleep sequence of remote controls (possibly most of them are 940 nm). "Non-glow" security camera illuminators also use around 940 nm.

[typ3z3r0]

He'd have to make sure to cover the sensor though, I think. I just put Blu Tack over mine so I don't need to worry about the lighting environment at all.

[basicallyyes]

Pollack´s work on water is very very interesting, does it implies that the mechanism of action of lllt is due the fact that IR light interacts with water in the cells and change its structure?

Also theres seems to be corelation of IR light exposure and growth of the plants, so it seems that its benefical for all life forms containing water (probably all:)).

Yeah. The interaction of light and water would constitute 'a' moa for lllt but not necessarily 'the' mechanism. LLLT is already postulated to work by multiple mechanisms. Pollack's work presents a very novel moa that hasn't been sufficiently tested yet...but it should be!

I've been shining halogen light (I bought a $10 halogen bulb and a $5 lamp from Target) on my drinking water (I've been calling it 'Laser Water' cause I'm a dork) for the past week for a minimum of 5 minutes. I haven't changed anything else (that I know of) in my life. My blood oxygenation level (as measured with a pulse oximeter) has gone up to 99% and my resting pulse rate has dropped to 50. I've measured these dozens of times over the past year and my resting pulse rate has always hovered around 60 (non-modafinil) and 70 (on modafinil) and my blood oxygenation has always been 98% (unless I'm using my oxygen concentrator). I've gotta go dig my blood pressure monitor out of storage and check to see if that has changed as well.

If anyone else tries it out...please report back. I'd love to see if it seems to work for you guys as well. =)

I'm going to test this, can you tell me the specs on the halogen bulb? I want to match what you did exactly, here's the target list of bulbs:

http://www.target.co...-/N-5xsyqZ5dc3y

[BigPapaChakra]

I would love to know as well! Going to test out the effects of changing the lighting near me as I do work by tracking it through quantified-mind; hopefully will be surrounded by more red and less blue and green lighting. We'll see how it goes.

[EncyclopediaBrown]

What do you guys think of adding Mildronate? It supposed to increase ATP. http://www.springeri...57-010-0321-0-3 http://en.m.wikipedi...wiki/Mildronate http://kettlebellfit...e-iron-curtain/

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[stephen_b]

You two who said the 96 LED gets hot after 5 min......are you touching the glass to your skin? Do you have dark skin? Trying to send it through dark hair? I have a 140 LED unit that is pretty much the same and the glass gets surprisingly hot. "Surprisingly" because glass is not supposed to absorb too much of the 850 nm.

Aren't LEDs about 40% or less efficient? Wouldn't that mean the rest is heat?

[zawy]

I believe these red and near-infrared LEDs are 25% to 33%. The wavelengths are generally fixed between a few wavelengths like 630, 660, 830, and 850 because they search for and use the semiconductor formulations that are more efficient. There's a missing gap between 660 and 830 of LEDs that are not generally available. Anyway, yes, the rest is heat in the circuit board, but even the light gets turned into heat as the body absorbs. The only thing that is not turned into heat is the effect we want: ATP energy (although the release of NO opens up blood vessels that allow more blood flow). But even the ATP is turned into heat if the energy is used by the body to repair itself (create order, reducing the internal entropy). An old style night light is about 8 watts, so the 96 LED is about light sticking 2 night lights against your skull, with the heat evenly spread out.

[Nattzor]

Not 100% relevant, but: http://www.nature.co...n.2013.282.html

[Godof Smallthings]

You two who said the 96 LED gets hot after 5 min......are you touching the glass to your skin? Do you have dark skin? Trying to send it through dark hair? I have a 140 LED unit that is pretty much the same and the glass gets surprisingly hot.

Hi zawy! In my case, the unit that gets hot is a 48 LED. I always remove the glass first. I do not have dark skin, and my hair is brown (but pretty thick right now, although when it was considerably shorter, the heating up effect was still there.

"Surprisingly" because glass is not supposed to absorb too much of the 850 nm. From my experience, light-colored skin (and little tan) from these units should not get too hot for the skin at 5 minute mark unless it is a really good (strong) device.

I have no way of gauging how good it is except for subjective effects on cognition, but if it IS strong then that would be excellent news of course.

Ideally you want the LEDs pressing against the skin directly. I plan to do a lot more videos for my web page which I'll duplicate here. I want to show how pressing into the skin can give you 10 times the treatment in many cases. The glass in the cover blocks about 15% of the light.

I have been pressing the LEDs tightly against the skin since my first session, so it's good to know I am doing something right. My treatment time may be too short though, compared with your estimates of 20-30 min. To clarify - do you mean 20-30 min per spot or overall treatment time here?

Thanks for replying.

Edited by Godof Smallthings, 12 November 2013 - 02:51 AM.

[zawy]

Yes, 20 to 30 min per spot. Your dark thick hair might be block 90% more than my skin/skull blocking estimate, so you might need 4 hours to get the same effect my bald head gets. Imagine you got scalped and then someone held your scalp in front of that light and you tried to see how much got through with the night vision on a camcorder. The camcorder is not going to see a whole lot through thick dark hair.

[Godof Smallthings]

Thanks again. I've considered shaving my head anyway, so might as well get to it.

Given how hot my device gets, with a bald head, would 5 minutes per spot 4 times a day work? If the treatment has to occur in one continuous block, then it is simply not doable even at 20 minutes time, as I have to concentrate hard to disregard the pain after around 5 minutes on the same spot.

[Nattzor]

From someone on reddit irc:
-In a stressed cell, NO produced by mitochondrial NO synthase displaces oxygen from CCO, which results in a downregulation of cellular respiration and a subsequent decrease in the production of energy-storing compounds, such as ATP. By dissociating NO from CCO, LLLT prevents the displacement of oxygen from CCO and thereby promotes unhindered cellular respiration [10] (see Figure 4).
- Increased CCO enzyme activity can be measured [11]; increased ATP production [12] and increased electron transport [13] also have been reported.
- the mechanism is what i would be concerned about
- in stressed cells, IE cells that have sustained physical trauma, you have NO synthase displacing oxygen from CCO, which results in downregulation of CR
- if health individuals, you wouldn't see this phenomena, and ultimately you may just be increasing the amount of oxidative phosphorylation
- which is not good --> agining/cancer

Thoughts?

Edited by Nattzor, 12 November 2013 - 05:55 PM.

[BigPapaChakra]

I'm not so sure oxidative phosphorylation is a bad thing, if a result of mitochondrial uncoupling: http://www.oxphos.or...id=39&Itemid=75

ATP really isn't the only thing the focus should be on, red and infrared light also leads to a whole host of transcriptional factor activation, increased blood flow, oxygenation, etc. Even if somehow increased 'oxphos' was bad, the benefits of everything else would possibly be worth it.

But perhaps I'm way off here - I'm no biologist as of yet, haha.