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Lostfalco's Extensive Nootropic Experiments [Curated]

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#1561 Joe Cohen

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 01:33 AM

I know this has been asked many times and there is no concrete answer but I am still not sure about the optimal time of doing LLLT; I was doing it for 1-2 minutes per spot with solid results for a month than switched to 5 minutes after mentioning itt than studies are using much larger doses but I feel I have lost some of the benefits with increased dosage and also feels like my need for sleep increased even more (a problem to begin with).

Did anyone else experience similar ?

Also Joe Cohen mentioned on his blog that he doesn't laser the back of his head - any particular reasons why you should avoid stimulating some parts of the brain?

Thanks


That's where the optic nerves are. Had some pain when I did it there and there's no higher order cognition as far as I'm aware.

#1562 88LS

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 10:35 AM

For those of you wanting to make use of the 650nm wavelength check out these laser pens on aliexpress - just tape three of them together and you have a 650nm Vetro contraption that cost next to nothing... I alternate using them and the 850nm LED's.

Nice interview prep rikelme, would be nice to see Lostfalco's current stack too, nudge nudge ;) ;)

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#1563 clstrfck

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 06:23 AM

30 minutes LLT session mostly over the forehead


Ok, isn´t that a bit long? Did you slowly work your way up or just started like that?

300mg time release melatonin


You mean 300 mcg.... No? Yes for sure.. Noooo?

* light breakfast without starches: usually 2 - 3 boiled eggs with berries + a heaping spoon of organic virgin coconut oil + omega 3 capsule
* cold shower for 3 minutes, followed by the 2 min hot - cold water cycle


You stole my morning ritual! I declare witchcraft!

No, seriously. That sounds like a long time of LLLTing, or am I wrong. And 300 MG of Melatonin. Aren´t you SLIGHTLY groggy the next day?

#1564 rikelme

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 06:47 AM

30 minutes LLT session mostly over the forehead


Ok, isn´t that a bit long? Did you slowly work your way up or just started like that?

300mg time release melatonin


You mean 300 mcg.... No? Yes for sure.. Noooo?

* light breakfast without starches: usually 2 - 3 boiled eggs with berries + a heaping spoon of organic virgin coconut oil + omega 3 capsule
* cold shower for 3 minutes, followed by the 2 min hot - cold water cycle


You stole my morning ritual! I declare witchcraft!

No, seriously. That sounds like a long time of LLLTing, or am I wrong. And 300 MG of Melatonin. Aren´t you SLIGHTLY groggy the next day?


Ooops, yes I meant 300mcg... I've tried many doses starting from 3mg downwards... 300 - 400mcg works best for me.

A while ago I've shared my calculations about LLT in this thread. What I've found is in order to deliver a same amount of energy per area that has been shown beneficial i most LLLT studies you would have to do it for over an hour ( if you use single 200mW 808nm laser ). I do it for 30mins, constantly moving the laser head around to avoid heat damage. It gets HOT :)

And for the morning ritual - I guess we discovered it independently :) I'm glad that it works for someone else too!
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#1565 lostfalco

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 10:52 PM

Nice interview prep rikelme, would be nice to see Lostfalco's current stack too, nudge nudge ;) ;)


Hey, what's up 88? Along with my usual stack, I'm currently experimenting with ultra-low microcurrent as an antioxidant. I'm hoping that it might be able to counteract the tiredness that some people have experienced with LLLT. Here's an extended quote with a link to the full text pilot study.

"The results of this preliminary trial showed that ultra-low microcurrent has apparent therapeutic effects on diabetes, hypertension and wound healing. Presumably, one of mechanisms of action is its antioxidant activity. The action of EPRT is to produce electrical pressure rather than an electrical jolt as produced by a Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulator. Whereas Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulator device can produce a current varying from 1uA to 100 mA, the EPRT ranges from 100 nA to 3 mA. Moreover, Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulator frequency range is from 0.5 to 40,000 Hz with a range of cycle times from 2 seconds to 0.025 milliseconds. The EPRT has a frequency of approximately 0.000732Hz which gives a frequency time of 22.77 minutes. Namely, Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulator with power of 10 mA and a frequency of 1 Hz is delivering approximately 6x10 (14) electrons per cycle. As the cycle is 1 second all these electrons were delivered in that period as a jolt. The EPRT at a setting of 100 nA is delivering 8.129x10 (14) per cycle. But as this amount is being delivered over a 23 minute period (at rate of 6x10 (11) electrons per second) this behaves as a pressure instead of a jolt. This steady stream of electrons is what makes the EPRT a super antioxidant and not only does this correct malalignments in the cells electrical system but it also eliminates free radicals and then stimulates the mitochondria to produce ATP."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2792735/#!po=43.3333

#1566 lostfalco

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 07:09 PM

Definitely worth a look. =) A new review article from our boys Gonzalez-Lima and Rojas along with Bryan Barksdale.

Mitochondrial respiration as a target for neuroprotection and cognitive enhancement
http://www.sciencedi...006295213007417


Abstract
This paper focuses on brain mitochondrial respiration as a therapeutic target for neuroprotection and cognitive enhancement. We propose that improving brain mitochondrial respiration is an important future direction in research and treatment of Alzheimer's disease (AD) and other conditions associated with cognitive impairment and neurodegeneration. The central thesis is that supporting and improving brain mitochondrial respiration constitutes a promising neurotherapeutic principle, with potential applications in AD as well as in a wide variety of neuropsychological conditions. We propose three different interventional approaches to improve brain mitochondrial respiration based on a) pharmacology, b) photobiomodulation and c) nutrition interventions, and provide detailed examples for each type of intervention. First, low-dose USP methylene blue is described as a pharmacological intervention that can successfully increase mitochondrial respiration and result in memory enhancement and neuroprotection. Second, transcranial low-level light/laser therapy with near-infrared light is used to illustrate a photobiomodulation intervention with similar neurometabolic mechanisms of action as low-dose methylene blue. Finally, a nutrition intervention to improve mitochondrial respiration is proposed by increasing ketone bodies in the diet. The evidence discussed for each intervention supports a fundamental neurotherapeutic strategy based on improving oxidative energy metabolism while at the same time reducing the pro-oxidant tendencies of the nervous system. Targeting brain mitochondrial respiration with these three types of interventions is proposed as part of a holistic neurotherapeutic approach to improve brain energy metabolism and antioxidant defenses. This strategy represents a promising new bioenergetics direction for treatment of AD and other neuropsychological disorders featuring cognitive impairment and neurodegeneration.


Thanks to brainstorm11 for posting this on reddit. http://www.reddit.co...s_a_target_for/

Edited by lostfalco, 07 December 2013 - 07:18 PM.


#1567 macropsia

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 01:18 AM

No, unfortunately I don't own a system. I do rent one occasionally, but it has been a minute. I'm waiting for my 850 NM led arrays so I can jump on that bandwagon before I give the N-optimal another run.

An aside: does it seem curious to anyone else that pqq hasn't shown to cross the bbb in studies? Did I miss something?

No, unfortunately I don't own a system. I do rent one occasionally, but it has been a minute. I'm waiting for my 850 NM led arrays so I can jump on that bandwagon before I give the N-optimal another run.

An aside: does it seem curious to anyone else that pqq hasn't shown to cross the bbb in studies? Did I miss something?

#1568 lostfalco

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 12:26 AM

An aside: does it seem curious to anyone else that pqq hasn't shown to cross the bbb in studies? Did I miss something?

Hey, what's up macropsia? The most recent studies indicate that PQQ does in fact cross the bbb. Here are a couple of quotes and a link to the full text study. =)

"Based on its water solubility and negative charge, PQQ in its free form would not be expected to easily cross the blood–brain barrier. However, it was reported that PQQ was capable of entering the brain following systemic administration, and particularly notable was the work by Smidt et al. [14]. In addition, possible metabolic products such as the oxazole derivative of PQQ cross the blood–brain barrier in order to exert effects on NGF and may be also neuroprotective [2]."

"Although 99mTc-PQQ has a logP value of −1.49 ± 0.16, it is able to pass the blood–brain barrier in biodistribution study in vivo and it may be not so lipophilic that it would have prohibitively high nonspecific binding in brain."

http://link.springer...5/fulltext.html

Edited by lostfalco, 13 December 2013 - 12:27 AM.


#1569 lostfalco

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 12:18 AM

Hey, what's up guys? If you have time make sure to check out Dave Asprey's Bulletproof podcast with our boy Abelard. Really cool to see him getting CILTEP out there! http://www.bulletpro...indsay-podcast/

Edited by lostfalco, 14 December 2013 - 12:22 AM.

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#1570 Q did it!

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 12:23 AM

Hey, what's up guys? If you have time make sure to check out Dave Asprey's Bulletproof podcast with our boy Abelard. Congrats man! http://www.bulletpro...indsay-podcast/


Just waiting for the TULIP and Mr Happy's Stack podcast :)

#1571 zeroskater6979

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 02:52 AM

Lostfalco, would be awesome to hear you on Dave's podcast to discuss TULIP

#1572 lostfalco

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 03:04 AM

Just waiting for the TULIP and Mr Happy's Stack podcast :)

ha Thanks Q. To be honest, I'd love to hear Mr. Happy on a podcast too. Sounds like his stack has been working for him for over two years and he's had a genius "Happy Stack" baby in the meantime as well.

#1573 lostfalco

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 03:16 AM

Lostfalco, would be awesome to hear you on Dave's podcast to discuss TULIP

Thanks zero. It would be cool to chat with Dave...especially since he introduced me to the idea of LLLT. Maybe one of these days. =)

#1574 zeroskater6979

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 01:17 PM

Maybe this has been discussed but has there been any IQ measurement/increase with TULIP?

Edited by zeroskater6979, 14 December 2013 - 01:18 PM.


#1575 Slayers

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 09:24 PM

I have been recently been monitoring this thread and have decided to give LLLT a chance. The reason I have decided to use LLT is for the treatment of my depression and to improve cognitive function.

Is this 48 led infrared light appropiate to use for treatment? I know that joe uses this product, but I just wanted to confirmation from the rest of you.
http://www.amazon.co...0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Should I use the LLLT light for two minutes on each spot of my head in the following image? http://www.bem.fi/book/13/fi/1302a.gif

Edited by Slayers, 14 December 2013 - 09:25 PM.


#1576 chemicalambrosia

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 03:56 AM

Is an LED array like the one in the last post proper for healing tendonitis(elbow)? If so, how long would the treatment times be and how often?

#1577 Nattzor

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:46 AM

I have been recently been monitoring this thread and have decided to give LLLT a chance. The reason I have decided to use LLT is for the treatment of my depression and to improve cognitive function.

Is this 48 led infrared light appropiate to use for treatment? I know that joe uses this product, but I just wanted to confirmation from the rest of you.
http://www.amazon.co...0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Should I use the LLLT light for two minutes on each spot of my head in the following image? http://www.bem.fi/book/13/fi/1302a.gif


Check out this study and try to mimick it. It's the only study on depression afaik (except some "acupuncture LLLT or something like that).

"We then gave four 4-minute treatments in a random order: NIR to left forehead at F3, to right forehead at F4,"
"The treatment consisted of applying PBM in the form of a light emitting diode (LED) array (Marubeni America Corp, Santa Clara, CA) with a peak wavelength of 810 nm with a full width half maximum of 40 nm, delivering an irradiance of 250 mW/cm2 when applied at 4 mm from the skin. The treatment consisted of exposure to the light for 4 minutes (total delivered fluence per site of 60 J/cm2) at each of 2 sites on the forehead that correspond to the 10-20 EEG sites, F3, and F4."

I would personally add some more to it, doing more of the forehead and things.

Looks like they did 4 minutes per site, with a more powerful LED. So I'd go with 4 minutes to start with, then add more if you feel like you need it.
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#1578 Godof Smallthings

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 12:36 PM

Wow. Notable effects after 2 and 4 weeks after a single 4 min + 4 min session.

Looks like we might be overdoing it with every other day...

Edited by Godof Smallthings, 15 December 2013 - 12:37 PM.


#1579 swen

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 01:27 PM

Wow. Notable effects after 2 and 4 weeks after a single 4 min + 4 min session.

Looks like we might be overdoing it with every other day...


Can you elaborate a little, please? :)

#1580 Nattzor

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 01:36 PM

Wow. Notable effects after 2 and 4 weeks after a single 4 min + 4 min session.

Looks like we might be overdoing it with every other day...


I'd bet they would get better result with it a bit more frequent. They used way higher intensity than we use (I think), that would also partially explain the lower frequency, but they used REALLY low frequency.

#1581 Godof Smallthings

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 01:36 PM

I was referring to the study Nattzor linked to in the post above mine.

The depressed test subjects only had one session of LED treatment, and a majority of them experienced positive effects even at 2 and 4 weeks. If this is suggestive of a real effect and not placebo, there seems to be a possibility that a session every other day might be overkill.

#1582 Nattzor

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 02:03 PM

I was referring to the study Nattzor linked to in the post above mine.

The depressed test subjects only had one session of LED treatment, and a majority of them experienced positive effects even at 2 and 4 weeks. If this is suggestive of a real effect and not placebo, there seems to be a possibility that a session every other day might be overkill.


How many here are doing it for depression? If you look at all the other studies it's a repeated dose, the science supports that.

#1583 BigPapaChakra

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 06:16 AM

The Naeser study, although small, used daily treatments for really long periods of time, something like 13 minutes. Some of their language was confusing me, perhaps I read it too fast, but it seemed like they sometimes even used a long period of time per region, and did multiple regions. That would be a ton of time under the lights.

On a side note, I wanted to post about something I just found. So, I have Dr. Peat's book Mind and Tissue, which is all about Russian brain physiology research, and it has a ton of information for these bio-hacking purposes. A lot of interesting discussion and theories about organismic evolution and it's role on sociological functioning, sexuality, etc. but a lot of information on changing the structure and chemical nature of the CNS. To accompany this, he has a great article titled Biophysical Approaches to Altered States of Consciousness. In it, he mentions a compound called 2-benzyl-benzimidazole to decrease glycogen consumption, creatine and ATP consumption, and increase protein synthesis. Instantly, I was intrigued. I looked it up and found this: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3762282/ The Pharmacology of Actoprotectors: Practical Application for Improvement of Mental and Physical Performance Sergiy Oliynyk and Seikwan Oh

They speak about these Actoprotectors, and to me, they seem to have potent nootropic value, and perhaps value in enhancing TULIP. They are essentially akin to synthetic, highly potent adaptogens, but strikingly different in many respects. They are/were used by the Soviets/Russians/Eastern European nations in the Olympics, in cosmonauts, in the military, in rescue workers for Chernobyl, etc. Primarily, they help the body operate under extreme stress, such as high altitude, hypoxia, extreme heat and cold, etc. One portion of it stated that certain Actoprotectors wouldn't benefit people who aren't under extreme amounts of stress or exertion, but they spoke about so many different compounds I really don't believe this holds true for them all. They also spoke about how they enhance physical and intellectual processes in healthy people, so I'd give it a go if I could. Here is one portion on Bemitil: It has been established that the therapeutic effect of bemitil is a function of its complex mechanism entailing cell genome activation, optimization of mitochondrial oxidation, oxidative stress reduction, and stimulation of cellular immune response (Shabanov, 2009b). Basically, bemitil (and other benzimidazole actoprotectors) is similar to purine bases in its chemical structure (Fig. 4). It was supposed that this structural similarity explains the influence of bemitil on the cell genome, the amplifying expression of RNA and proteins, particularly enzymes of gluconeogenesis and oxidative phosphorylation, as a central link in bemitil’s mechanism of action. This activation is first expressed in organs (i.e. the liver, kidneys, and alimentary tube) having short-lived, renewable proteins. (...) Bemitil primarily encourages anaerobic energy production, ATP formation, and resynthesis of glucoses from the products of carbohydrates decay (lactate and pyruvate) and from glycerol and amino acids, which mostly occurs in the liver and kidneys. Bemitil promotes the utilization of lactates (one of the main factors in work capacity reduction) under excessive physical loads which process is conjugated with the Cori and glucose-alanine cycles (Fig. 5). In these cycles, bemitil neutralizes and eliminates not only lactate but also the nitrogeneous products of decay (ammonia, etc.)."

Interestingly, I had inquired about cori cycle enhancers in the TULIP Stacking Thread. Another interesting aspect was the increases in pulse, temperature, oxygen consumption, etc. which Dr. Broda Barnes and Dr. Peat have spoken about a lot, although I was always skeptical (of increasing my heart rate on purpose). Have some digging to do.
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#1584 EncyclopediaBrown

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 03:04 PM

Hey guys check these vids out. Really interesting stuff

Redesign My Brain Season 1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txKC7wQe0EA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmH-85yDu8w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqsoUQpsSFI

Edited by EncyclopediaBrown, 18 December 2013 - 03:05 PM.

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#1585 Nattzor

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 10:56 PM

BigPapaChakra, Interesting! Will research actoprotectors a bit more I guess.

EncyclopediaBrown, mind posting a summary?

For everyone: I got 40 days of data to analyze (20 LLLT, 20 placebo), but I have no idea how to actually analyze it. Is there someone who can help me with the analyzing part maybe?

#1586 gwern

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:12 PM

For everyone: I got 40 days of data to analyze (20 LLLT, 20 placebo), but I have no idea how to actually analyze it. Is there someone who can help me with the analyzing part maybe?


Sure. Post it and describe what it means and how you placebo'd.
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#1587 Nattzor

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:21 PM

For everyone: I got 40 days of data to analyze (20 LLLT, 20 placebo), but I have no idea how to actually analyze it. Is there someone who can help me with the analyzing part maybe?


Sure. Post it and describe what it means and how you placebo'd.


I mean analyze the data.

But sure, I'll compile everything tomorrow and post.

#1588 Nattzor

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:52 PM

So, how I blinded it: I covered my eyes (to not see the lamp), ears (to not hear if it's plugged in or not), hands (to not feel heat from the lamp) and used a water bag between the lamp and skin (to not feel heat). I asked my dad to walk into the room when I had prepared everything and to turn it on or not. The first 2 stages were done for about 12 minutes with about 1 minute per spot (I counted in my head, obv not optimal), the last twh stages were for 2 minutes (24 min total).

The tests were a battery on Quantified-Mind consisting of Choice Reaction Time (testing reaction time), visual matching (testing visual perception), sorting (testing executive function) and finger tapping (testing motor skills). Something obviusly dumb from my part was not to check what areas of the brain that are related to those parts. If I have used LLLT on the front of my head and the function is related to an area at the back of the brain it's obviously useless. I mainly did at the forehead and 2 spots back on the head.

Placebo = Phase 2 & 3
LLLT = Phase 1 & 4

https://www.mediafir...j1xwki33mw9h036 - To download the data in CSV form (saved from excel, hope it works).

http://www.mediafire...T - Sheet 1.csv - CSV formate, 0 = placebo, 1 = LLLT. Proper formated according to my friend.

Anything more you want to know? When the data is analysed a bit more I'll post a write-up on it.

Edited by Nattzor, 19 December 2013 - 06:34 PM.

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#1589 lostfalco

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 07:05 PM

Anything more you want to know? When the data is analysed a bit more I'll post a write-up on it.

Very well done Nattzor! Love the quantification and blinding. When did you take the cognitive tests relative to lasering? For example, did you laser at 9am and test at 10am, etc.?

Edited by lostfalco, 19 December 2013 - 07:07 PM.


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#1590 Nattzor

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 07:09 PM

Anything more you want to know? When the data is analysed a bit more I'll post a write-up on it.

Very well done Nattzor! Love the quantification and blinding. When did you take the cognitive tests relative to lasering? For example, did you laser at 9am and test at 10am, etc.?


Did the laser at 20.00 (8 PM) and tests abot 18.00 (6 PM) the day after, did lasering EOD. So never tests after laser the same day, only before and 22 h after.





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