4029 replies to this topic

[cylack]

Is anyone using LLLT in the occipital region (back of the head) or directly on the eyes? Rojas and Gonzalez-Lima said that LLLT is beneficial to the eyes in treating disorders involving rats: http://www.collegeof...e-and-brain.pdf

The one study I could find using humans was one in which an 86 year old man with acute macular degeneration used LLLT and it helped stop progression of his disease and lessened symptoms, including lowering his intraocular pressure (IOP): http://qikan.9med.ne...11553572146.pdf

I would be interested in using LLLT on my eyes to lessen my IOP as I've been diagnosed with early stage glaucoma and also in the occipital/cerebellar region to improve my balance. Any thoughts on how safe this would be? For my eyes I'm thinking about closing my eyes and putting the LED in front of the eyes just for 5 seconds. This would be akin to sun-staring, which I've done for 10 seconds at a time with no problem.

Edited by cylack, 12 February 2014 - 11:22 PM.

[rikelme]

Is anyone using LLLT in the occipital region (back of the head) or directly on the eyes? Rojas and Gonzalez-Lima said that LLLT is beneficial to the eyes in treating disorders involving rats: http://www.collegeof...e-and-brain.pdf

The one study I could find using humans was one in which an 86 year old man with acute macular degeneration used LLLT and it helped stop progression of his disease and lessened symptoms, including lowering his intraocular pressure (IOP): http://qikan.9med.ne...11553572146.pdf

I would be interested in using LLLT on my eyes to lessen my IOP as I've been diagnosed with early stage glaucoma and also in the occipital/cerebellar region to improve my balance. Any thoughts on how safe this would be? For my eyes I'm thinking about closing my eyes and putting the LED in front of the eyes just for 5 seconds. This would be akin to sun-staring, which I've done for 10 seconds at a time with no problem.

Hi cylack,

Yes, there have been some research with LLLT and degenerative diseases in optical nerve's mitochondria. MB targets neurons almost exclusively - it easily penetrates the blood-brain barrier and it is a viable alternative. LLLT, on the other hand, treats the almost any tissue.

Many LHON people are starting to take MB regularly in order to prevent the progression of the optical nerve degeneration. LHON is a nasty condition - it hits mostly males at age ~20-40. Hits on eye first and progresses very quickly. Within few months optical nerves in both eyes are damaged beyond the repair. There is no know cure for the disease, but Lima argues that MB and LLLT are very good prevention candidates.

I'm familiar with the topic as, unfortunately, a friend of mine has LHON. Coincidence or not, but this Lostfalco's thread, led me to the LLLT literature and purely by chance I discovered that LHON may be prevented with LLLT and MB. My friend is doing both - cycling between LLLT and MB. It's too early to say, but for now his vision on the second eye is still impeccable. However, his first eye seems not to be recovering. It has been only a month since he started the protocol - if anybody's interested, I'll keep you posted.

For LLLT he's using 48LED from ebay, 2-3 minutes per eye with eyes closed. He started with 30s, then went to a minute and now he's at 2-3 minutes. It seems that it's safe to use LEDs. But, lasers SHOULD NOT be pointed to the eyes!

Lostfalco, without this thread and your research on LLLT and links to Lima's papers, I'm sure that his second eye would've probably been affected by now... It seemed that you've saved once person's vision... THANK YOU!

[BigPapaChakra]

Look into Longevida curcumin. Studied at UCLA and proven to have bioavailability. I've been using it for a week and it definitely has noticeable anti-inflammatory effects. I had a rash on my arm brought upon by eating chlorella that wouldn't go away for 3 days; when I took the Longevida curcumin the rash went away within the hour.

It's a pricey curcumin, but worth it. One thing about curcumin in general though is that it is anti-androgenic (along with a whole host of other supps like green tea and licorice). That's why I'm only taking the curcumin for a month before I discontinue it. I'm on a detox protocol now after having mercury fillings removed and the curcumin is good for reducing brain inflammation. I also stopped taking green tea because of the anti-androgen properties.

Interesting, I may have to look into that brand. Is there any reason in particular you're worried about the supposed anti-androgenic properties? I'm starting to get deep into my studies via textbooks, Khan Academy, etc. and thus looking into things like this, but I just recently received Hans Selye's The Stress of Life Updated and Revised Edition and it delves into androgens and what not. A lot of ovarian and placental hormones, along with various androgens, all play a role in the famous 'General Adaptation Syndrome' via inducing stress responses such as the enlargement of the adrenal cortex, shrinking of lymphatic tissues (what is called the thymicolymphatic system), as well as deep ulcers in the duodenum; all of which also play a role in aging and various diseases. Just something to look into. Personally, I can't wait to apply LostFalco's technique of RS+spaced repetition, especially since I'm starting TULIP again, and then use all of this to devour all of Hans Selye's books and endocrinology textbooks.

[cylack]

The reason I am worried about the anti-androgen effects was I've been following a strict paleo diet + resistant starches + gluten & casein free and still haven't managed to lose weight. I looked at all the supps I was taking and googled side effects for each. I saw that many had anti-androgen effects, i.e., decreasing testosterone synthesis. I was consuming all of the following which suppress testosterone noticeably: green tea, curcumin, peppermint, spearmint, tulsi, rooibos, and licorice.

If you are interested, here is one of the papers I read on this topic which is pretty comprehensive: http://www.asiaandro...-aja201043a.pdf

[Godof Smallthings]

I lost 16 kgs (approx 33 pounds) in the past two years. The measures that had a real impact was daily light cardio (brisk walks of 45 min+ at first, then gradually introducing intermittent light jogging 3 days per week, and then doing 30 min jogging 3 days per week). If you don't lose weight with that, I would suspect thyroid issues.

To get the resolve to introduce new changes, mindfulness meditation and piracetam seem to have helped. In the beginning, having somebody else to do the walks with every day was also really helpful. Once you've done daily walks for 2 months, the habit should be so strongly established and the positive effects so apparent that your momentum is sufficient even without positive social pressure.

[Raz007]

Hey there Lostfalco !
Long time no see

I benefit enormously from your LLLT discovery. I'm about to start experimenting with p. starch soon.
However, I would be happy to get your response regarding: (I've post it here couple of weeks ago, must've been lost)

- What the optimal timing you've found, that taking the supplements for LLLT is most beneficial?
The research I made about the pharmacokinetics properties of the different LLLT enhancers
conclude that they should be taken 2.5 hours (average of all the different substances) priory to
the LLLT for maximum plasma concentration.

- What is your favorite EEG points for LLLT ?

- What is your opinion about combination of curcumine+ peperine with the LLLT protocol ?

- (excuse me if I missed it while I was absent) What is your opinion towards combination of MB with LLLT?


Raz

Hey, what's up Raz!? That's awesome that LLLT has been working so well for you man.

-2.5 hours sounds about right to me.
-I'm lasering my whole brain.
-curcumin looks very interesting...still researching. Haven't tried it yet.
-MB + LLLT should be undertaken very cautiously. If spaced far enough apart, the combo is probably ok.

Keep us updated...I hope the starch works well for you!

I'm great! thank you for keeping the research and advancement going

I jumped on the train of the MB+LLLT before the warning was issued.. but in any case I use extremely low amount of MB (1 drop in 30ml, and from that 30 ml I took 15 drops every time before the LLLT treatment ). I don't think much damage has been done.. But maybe I should do my day-on-day-off interval with MB on the days that I don't have LLLT?

Do you have in mind LLLT enhancer that would be as good as MB without the danger of DNA damage ?

[lostfalco]

I'm familiar with the topic as, unfortunately, a friend of mine has LHON. Coincidence or not, but this Lostfalco's thread, led me to the LLLT literature and purely by chance I discovered that LHON may be prevented with LLLT and MB. My friend is doing both - cycling between LLLT and MB. It's too early to say, but for now his vision on the second eye is still impeccable. However, his first eye seems not to be recovering. It has been only a month since he started the protocol - if anybody's interested, I'll keep you posted.

For LLLT he's using 48LED from ebay, 2-3 minutes per eye with eyes closed. He started with 30s, then went to a minute and now he's at 2-3 minutes. It seems that it's safe to use LEDs. But, lasers SHOULD NOT be pointed to the eyes!

Lostfalco, without this thread and your research on LLLT and links to Lima's papers, I'm sure that his second eye would've probably been affected by now... It seemed that you've saved once person's vision... THANK YOU!

Thanks so much for letting us know about your friend Rikelme! I'm really glad to hear that LLLT/MB seems to be working on his good eye. I hope it holds up (fingers crossed). If it continues to help him then maybe we can start suggesting that others give it a try. Def keep us updated man.

[Duchykins]

The reason I am worried about the anti-androgen effects was I've been following a strict paleo diet + resistant starches + gluten & casein free and still haven't managed to lose weight. I looked at all the supps I was taking and googled side effects for each. I saw that many had anti-androgen effects, i.e., decreasing testosterone synthesis. I was consuming all of the following which suppress testosterone noticeably: green tea, curcumin, peppermint, spearmint, tulsi, rooibos, and licorice.

If you are interested, here is one of the papers I read on this topic which is pretty comprehensive: http://www.asiaandro...-aja201043a.pdf

How is your sleeping? Poor sleep can make people lose weight, gain weight and sabotague efforts at losing weight in part because it messes with your metabolism. Everything I tried failed, then I just gave up trying to lose weight and I threw my scale away. When I was finally able to establish a regular sleep pattern, the weight just melted off without me even trying anything. I didn't even realize it until people started commenting and I didn't believe them until I went to my regular doc appointment. 10 lbs in the first month, 20 by the third month, and coming close to the sixth month it's almost 40. Only 10 lbs away from my original target.

If that's not it for you though, the other guy had a good about about seeing a doc

Edited by Duchykins, 14 February 2014 - 02:29 AM.

[cylack]

Yeah my sleep is not that good now, as I'm under a lot of stress studying for my medical boards. However, after a round of LLLT last night I slept the best in months. I was diagnosed as hypothyroid a few months ago and take Levothyroxin for it. That said, I maintained strict records and the only thing that reduced any weight was immediately after I had 2 mercury fillings removed I lost 3 pounds. Perhaps reducing inflammation helped my body shed some weight. Giving up grains and gluten is relatively recent for me, only the last 2 weeks, so maybe it will take time for that effect to kick in. It can't hurt to stop taking any of the anti-androgenic substances I listed above. I just gave all those up this week.

[Nattzor]

The reason I am worried about the anti-androgen effects was I've been following a strict paleo diet + resistant starches + gluten & casein free and still haven't managed to lose weight. I looked at all the supps I was taking and googled side effects for each. I saw that many had anti-androgen effects, i.e., decreasing testosterone synthesis. I was consuming all of the following which suppress testosterone noticeably: green tea, curcumin, peppermint, spearmint, tulsi, rooibos, and licorice.

If you are interested, here is one of the papers I read on this topic which is pretty comprehensive: http://www.asiaandro...-aja201043a.pdf

Or, you know, you could count calories.

[Megan Boehm]

I'm having a hell of a time with this brain fog and overall feeling of sluggishness since beginning the regimen. I laser every other day (with LF's recommended LED's), do about 25mg of the potato starch, and take 300mg CoQ10 with 20mg PQQ. It's been about two weeks now.

I've read some reports about CoQ10 causing brain fog, so I think I'll lower the dose to 100mg and see what happens.

Any thoughts?

[debu]

About two weeks on the PS here and for sure it's making me feel a bit less clear as well within an hour of taking it, so I've reduced 10mg once a day. A teaspoon of Turmeric helps clear my head by about 25 percent. The LLLT I've been doing doesn't seem to be contributing to it though. Speculation, the fog may have something to do with Bacteria overgrowth/blockage/digestion. When I was doing three 10mg doses a day I was REALLY cloudy, then not to be too graphic but I took the next day off from PS and ate a bunch of celery early in the day and it was BOMBS away in the bathroom. After that felt super clear in the head, similar to the one colonic experience I had in life.

Interestingly, the roughness on my elbows has completely smoothed out and I've noticed the white of my eyes are super clear from having barely visible veins now. Not sure what exactly to attribute those to, my guess it's the PS.

[macropsia]

I suffer from severe ruminating OCD, probably at least partially of inflammatory origin. At its worst (totally unmedicated/supplemented + presence of severe allergens, for instance) I am basically incapable of getting a thought in edgewise and my focus and working memory are basically absent, holding a job is difficult etc... EEG is consistent with chronic pain, but I have no overt pain, only 'nonspecific' physical comfort.
LLLT has definitely helped considerably; I could say it feels as if the working space in my mind is gradually increasing, though I am still unsure whether brain or non-brain LLLT is having more overt effects. It has decreased the frequency of 'episodes'/exacerbations, but they have occurred since using LLLT (there are, however, many confounding factors here).

re 'combination' of psychotropics (i.e., taking psychotropics w/ lllt such that their effect coincides with or is modulated by the acute effect) I have two anecdotes:
Opiates give me a bit of a negative rebound, so I avoid using them (I think due to TLR4r agonism). However, I will on occasion if the OCD gets really bad as they do 'work'. On the one occasion I combined the two (sort of dumb idea in retrospect, but it was an opportunity to conduct a new experiment. ha.), I triggered one of the worst episodes I've had in a long time. The acute effect was uncomfortably strong. I actually sort of feel as if it did a bit of semi-permanent damage (as if I had somehow 'lost' 'progress' I had made). Regardless of the mechanism, I think it it safe to say that brain-lllt may amplify psychoactives alot, especially administered such that their peaks of effect coincide.
Anecdote the second:
I have found 5ht2a agonists to also work quite well for arresting an episode. A while ago I trialed 5-loxin (an AKBA standardized boswellia extract) to see if it would be as effective as curcumin without sexual and other side effects. Well, it sort of was, but shortly after the eugeroic and anti-inflammatory effects became substantial, I became very depressed and my appetite vanished. I discontinued the boswellia and continued LLLT (had been taken on opposite ends of the day), but improvements were only slight over 24 hrs (not much time, I know). Knowing it at least wouldn't (/couldn't) make things worse I took about a quarter of a gram of dipropyltryptamine, as it probably modulates tnf alpha sensitivity in a manner similar to DOI. I began lllt at around ten minutes post administration. It wasn't very pleasant (I think the words 'raped by the universe' escaped my mouth in description), but it seemed almost as effective as much stronger and selective 5ht2a agonists without coincident LLLT.
I had, thereafter, a very good week; concentration and rumination were noticeably improved for about four days; I even found myself able to get a little reading done during my bus commute, which is usually all but impossible due to the volume of stimulation. I have yet to (and probably will not) repeat the experience per se, but am interested in the idea of possibly improving availability of substances to brain via LED.

So, in short, there is definitely 'potentiation' possibility here, but there may be unintended consequences (i.e. 'side-effect' amplification) proportionally.

[macropsia]

I would also like to say that the sleep-related effects seem to be accessible via non-brain LLLT as well. I would tentatively (non-doctorly, etc.) suggest that brain-lllt non-responders take a break from brain-sites and try neck, spine and back sites for blood irradiation. I find this, somewhat oddly, to be almost comparable.

Several studies I have seen used brain and non-brain concurrently.

[alpal]

For anyone experimenting with curcumin, I strongly recommend Meriva-SR by Thorne which is made bioavailable by combining with phosphatidylcholine. I have tried Longvida, LEF and Newchapter but I find Thorne most effective by far. Not affiliated, it was recommended to me by a naturopath and worked great for several cognitive abilities. Focus, wakefulness, creativity, memory, motivation... things normally associated with BDNF and Dopamine.

[lostfalco]

I'm having a hell of a time with this brain fog and overall feeling of sluggishness since beginning the regimen. I laser every other day (with LF's recommended LED's), do about 25mg of the potato starch, and take 300mg CoQ10 with 20mg PQQ. It's been about two weeks now.

I've read some reports about CoQ10 causing brain fog, so I think I'll lower the dose to 100mg and see what happens.

Any thoughts?

Hey Megan...I'm really sorry to hear about the sluggishness.

In my experience, I've always found it helpful to start with one substance at a time, tweak it until it works or doesn't work, and then move on from there. Everyone is so individual that it really takes a fair amount of self experimentation to figure out whether something is for you or not. I would humbly suggest stopping everything except for the starch, focusing on optimizing that for a few weeks, and then going from there. Of course, I'm just a random dude on the internet so feel free to do anything you like. I've just found that this methodology works pretty well for me. Hope that helps. =)

Edited by lostfalco, 15 February 2014 - 10:15 PM.

[lostfalco]

For those who getting tired from the starch...here's a nice little discussion by Joe and Richard (the resistant starch superstars, along with Tim of course) on various sources of resistant starch (Bob's Red Mill is only one of many) and Richard's suggestions for probiotics to take with the starch. Scroll down to about comment #25. =)

http://freetheanimal...#comment-559698

Joe's primary sources: green bananas and legumes http://selfhacked.co...sistant-starch/
Joe's diet: http://selfhacked.co...or-weight-loss/
Richard's sources: BRM Unmodified Potato Starch, Plantain flour, Banana flour, cooked and cooled rice, potatoes and beans, Tiger Nuts
Richard's probiotic suggestions: Prescript Assist, AOR Probiotic-3, Primal Defense

Bottom Line: find a resistant starch source/s that works well for you...the stuff is pretty damn amazing.

Btw...I just need to do a bit more research to fully confirm, but it looks as though some of the acetate produced by Bifido absorbs into the bloodstream. If 'acetate' sounds familiar, it should. Acetate turns into acetyl-CoA and acetyl-CoA donates some of those acetyl groups to histones contributing to hyperacetylation.

The epigenetic count: Bifido creates acetate and lactate. Acetate increases acetyl groups while lactate increases butyrate (via cross-feeding Clostridium XIVa gut bugs). Butyrate prevents acetyl removal. Therefore, you get 'more acetyl groups' AND you get less 'removal of acetyl groups'! If confirmed, this could be the greatest epigenetic one-two punch that I've heard of so far (depending on how much, if any, gets to the brain). I'll keep you guys updated.

One last thing about "open chromatin". When chromatin moves into the euchromatin formation, DNA becomes more accessible to transcription factors. Transcription factors are proteins that bind to DNA and cause DNA expression. I think our friend Abelard might know a thing or two about those (cAMP/CREB) http://www.longecity......uced-ltp/ and you guys know of my love for PQQ (PGC-1a/CREB). This is just getting better and better. =)

Open Chromatin and CREB http://pubs.niaaa.ni.../starkman03.png

Edited by lostfalco, 15 February 2014 - 10:11 PM.

[Razor444]

Do you take 300mg of ubiquinol, or ubiquinone, lostfalco?

[Razor444]

Do you take 300mg of ubiquinol, or ubiquinone, lostfalco?

I found the answer on another page: ubiquinol!

[lostfalco]

Do you take 300mg of ubiquinol, or ubiquinone, lostfalco?

I found the answer on another page: ubiquinol!

Hey Razor! Here are my (non-expert) recommendations. Ubiquinol is correct. =) http://www.longecity...1887-lostfalco/

[macropsia]

Does anyone know the output of each of the LEDs on 'the' 96 LED array recommended in this thread? I'm trying to figure the dosage i'm using in j/c^2.

[hephaestus]

I estimated it earlier in the thread:

http://www.longecity...post__p__621338

[macropsia]

Cool. Thanks.

[stephen_b]

Led, according to this protocol

Raz, those photos seem to show very specific and small regions. How do you get just them?

[cylack]

Is anyone using LLLT on non-brain areas? If so what are your protocols (duration, directly on skin or using ice bag also, etc.)? I'd imaging it'd be safer to use the LED longer on non-brain areas, but it heats up quickly. I have a nagging sprain around my ankle and am wondering if LLLT would help heal the area.

[macropsia]

I've been wondering the same thing. I started non-brain LLLT when taking a break from brain-sites. I've been doing a similar amount of time as I was on brain, but the contact is better, the sites larger and much less haired, and the vasodilation is much more noticeable. There do seem to be cognitive benefits (though I've been doing neck sites, which I could see having brain-effects by a few mechanisms; indeed neck and back seems more psychotropic than back alone), which have something in common with brain-lllt (such as mental stamina, anxiety reduction, somnotropic effect) but are somewhat less.

Lately I've been doing a minute per site, ten-thirteen sites. I hope to eventually combine both B and NB LLLT, but will have to determine dosage, as the systemic effects of doing both (thus doubling the time) are quite strong, at least for myself and wiped me quite out the time I trialed it.

[Godof Smallthings]

Is anyone using LLLT on non-brain areas? If so what are your protocols (duration, directly on skin or using ice bag also, etc.)? I'd imaging it'd be safer to use the LED longer on non-brain areas, but it heats up quickly. I have a nagging sprain around my ankle and am wondering if LLLT would help heal the area.

I don't use it that way regularly, but due to long term computer work I have issues with my neck and shoulder. My home brew diagnosis is 'geek neck' and some sort of impingement inside the rotator cuff, as my mobility of the right arm is restricted by pain when I lie flat on my back and try to move both arms backwards above the head. My left hand reaches the floor and while there is tension in the arm when doing this, there is no pain. The right arm though, can only reach so far back above the head before the pain from somewhere inside the shoulder makes it nigh impossible to move it further (and I suspect it would be a very bad idea to try to force it further than that).

Occasionally the entire neck/shoulder area gets very tight and painful, and restricts the movement of my neck. It was one of those times, after having this problem for several days, that I used the 48 LED at spots starting from the middle of the neck down all the way towards the shoulder, and then followed up with stimulating the left motor cortex and the upper part of the left prefrontal cortex. Following the LED therapy, I sat down to do breath meditation.

When I sat down, the pain was still very bad, and I also experienced discomfort and pain from my hips, knees and legs due to the meditation posture. However, a few minutes into the meditation, I was enveloped by a positively glowing sense of pleasant warmth, which made me feel as if I was sitting in a warm, cosy pain-free bubble. This persisted for approx. 13-15 minutes, then, after that, some body discomfort came back again, and at the end of the meditation I could still feel I was somewhat sore in the shoulder area, but nothing like before the LLLT. I then went to sleep. The next morning, the shoulder pain and restricted neck were gone. And they have not been back, at least to that extent ever since.

So I was very happy with that. I can't remember exactly how long I stimulated each spot, but I know for sure that it would not have been more than 2 minutes in any spot. I would suspect something like 30 sec - 1 min per each spot on the neck/shoulder, and 1-2 minutes over the left motor cortex and left prefrontal cortex.

[cylack]

Thanks for the response. I got the 96 LED device the other day so I'll try that on my ankle area for 1-2 minutes.

I found some interesting papers on LLLT, one in particular by Chung et al lists all the human trials: https://mega.co.nz/#...3ffAG7NXhoWOC5w

In one of the studies in the Chung paper, it is interesting that post myocardial infarction patients undergoing LLLT therapy using 632.8 nm devices used them for 15 minutes directly on the skin over the chest.

We are probably being very conservative using our 850 nm devices only 30 seconds - 1 minute per area, but its probably better to be conservative at this stage until more research is done on the effects of LLLT on healthy individuals.

Edited by cylack, 20 February 2014 - 03:57 PM.

[Godof Smallthings]

its probably better to be conservative at this stage until more research is done on the effects of LLLT on healthy individuals.

Agreed.

[Adaptogen]

have any people had problems with vasodilatory headaches? I did a bit longer lasering than usual last night, still under 1 minute per spot..but today i've had a pretty bad migraine type headache, with feelings of slightly low blood pressure

Edited by Adaptogen, 21 February 2014 - 07:14 AM.