4029 replies to this topic

[Raisinthehouse]

Actually the studies suggest to take it all at once. More gets to gut where it can be utilized.

[RicardoW]

I personally haven't used any peptides. The closest thing to a peptide that I'll have experience with is NSI in a few weeks (hopefully).

Sorry I can't offer anything else. After I regain and enhance my cognition/state of consciousness, I'd be more than willing to research and experiment with peptides and fill you/everyone else in on my experience, though.

What is NSI?

What peptide(s) will you be using? There are some good threads on peptides here but a good amount of them were set up for group buys or questions on them, nothing as detailed as this thread; perhaps a cool peptide enhancement thread could be created in the near future.

I'm starting z-health next week, and the following week will be seeing a really well trained, educated, and experienced neuropsychiatrist who uses treatments such as rTMS, vagal nerve stimulation, HBOT, and more. So I can report back on all that soon. I'd take a look at all this cited 'advanced reading' (studies) which establishes some really awesome benefits to proprioception, visual, movement, etc. training/therapy. I should be getting certified in October, too. I think that kind of training could potentially have synergy with some of the things we've been working on (TULIP, NSI, Happy Stack, etc), i.e. you're building up the 'micro-structures' (so to speak) in your brain/CNS with these nutrients/compounds, and then working these neural pathways with the exercises, thus potentially making it 'stick'.

Depending upon how things go with NSI, this neuropsychiatrist, etc. I may go the peptide route. I may even experiment with those Russian Bioactive Peptides.

You have a lot of interesting stuff going (it’s always interesting to hear abbot personal experces whan it comes to more odd stuff)! Unfortunately I’m to busy at this point to start new stuff.

About the peptides im considering going all in and get it http://www.biogenesi...products_id=694
in to see if it works rather than trying a particular typ.

I like the ide of actually upgrading you’re brain and constitution rather than just jacking up you’re system with stimulants.

Edited by RicardoW, 31 March 2014 - 08:29 AM.

[Nattzor]

What is NSI?

NSI is NSI-189, it stimulates neurogenesis in the hippocampus. Mice (healthy) got 20% bigger hippocampus, I'm guessing a bit less for humans.

[NeuroGeneration]

@LostFalco - I'm hoping you can answer this; anyone else who has some thoughts on the topic, please chime in!

I've come across a number of studies & posts that refute, or at least question, the use of antioxidants for mitochondrial function. More generally speaking, the science is questioning the theory of ROS & its contribution to cell aging. Here are a couple of posts that get to the point:

http://suppversity.b...tochondria.html
http://suppversity.b...raining-in.html
http://suppversity.b...se-neither.html

This blog is focussed on weight training & exercise (which I do a lot of), but I can't help but question whether the effects of ROS in relation to muscular adaptations (strength increases) would also apply to the brain and other cells. After all, studies have found that antioxidants as simple as Vitamin C, and as standard as NAC, have both led to reduced muscle growth from training. And I know we're all familiar with hormesis, and that for LLLT it's recommended that we do a day or two on, a day off, for the sake of recovery, but... Does it not stand to reason that the Ubiuinol / PQQ are in fact reducing potential gains?

How increased oxidative stress promotes longevity and metabolic health:
The concept of mitochondrial hormesis (mitohormesis)

"Moreover, these findings indicate that approaches to induce
mitochondrial metabolism are likely to promote metabolic health
and may potentially extended lifespan. This notion is supported
by the fact that not only calorie and/or glucose (and possibly amino
acid) restriction, but also longevity-promoting physical exercise induces
mitochondrial metabolism and ROS formation (Davies et al.,
1982; Chevion et al., 2003; Powers and Jackson, 2008). Notably,
supplementation with ROS-reducing antioxidants inhibits (Gomez-
Cabrera et al., 2008; Ristow et al., 2009) the health-promoting
effects (Higuchi et al., 1985; Lindsted et al., 1991; Manini et al.,
2006; Warburton et al., 2006; Lanza et al., 2008) of physical exercise."

My apologies if this topic has already been covered (if so, please shoot a link over), but I'm curious of your perspective on this, in relation to both the brain & muscles, and whether antioxidants should be used daily, in small & controlled doses, or even at all.

Thanks!

Edited by NeuroGeneration, 31 March 2014 - 01:59 PM.

[BigPapaChakra]

@LostFalco - I'm hoping you can answer this; anyone else who has some thoughts on the topic, please chime in!

I've come across a number of studies & posts that refute, or at least question, the use of antioxidants for mitochondrial function. More generally speaking, the science is questioning the theory of ROS & its contribution to cell aging. Here are a couple of posts that get to the point:

http://suppversity.b...tochondria.html
http://suppversity.b...raining-in.html
http://suppversity.b...se-neither.html

This blog is focussed on weight training & exercise (which I do a lot of), but I can't help but question whether the effects of ROS in relation to muscular adaptations (strength increases) would also apply to the brain and other cells. After all, studies have found that antioxidants as simple as Vitamin C, and as standard as NAC, have both led to reduced muscle growth from training. And I know we're all familiar with hormesis, and that for LLLT it's recommended that we do a day or two on, a day off, for the sake of recovery, but... Does it not stand to reason that the Ubiuinol / PQQ are in fact reducing potential gains?

How increased oxidative stress promotes longevity and metabolic health:
The concept of mitochondrial hormesis (mitohormesis)

"Moreover, these findings indicate that approaches to induce
mitochondrial metabolism are likely to promote metabolic health
and may potentially extended lifespan. This notion is supported
by the fact that not only calorie and/or glucose (and possibly amino
acid) restriction, but also longevity-promoting physical exercise induces
mitochondrial metabolism and ROS formation (Davies et al.,
1982; Chevion et al., 2003; Powers and Jackson, 2008). Notably,
supplementation with ROS-reducing antioxidants inhibits (Gomez-
Cabrera et al., 2008; Ristow et al., 2009) the health-promoting
effects (Higuchi et al., 1985; Lindsted et al., 1991; Manini et al.,
2006; Warburton et al., 2006; Lanza et al., 2008) of physical exercise."

My apologies if this topic has already been covered (if so, please shoot a link over), but I'm curious of your perspective on this, in relation to both the brain & muscles, and whether antioxidants should be used daily, in small & controlled doses, or even at all.

Thanks!

Yeah, Prof. Andro posted this on facebook and it's pretty interesting. James Watson, a "DNA pioneer", claims many diseases are caused by a lack of oxidants, not an excess. This actually can be related to Dr. Peat's theories on aging and mitochondrial uncoupling/oxidative phosphorylation/etc.

[cylack]

Has anyone tried plantain flour instead of potato starch? I've been using the Bob's redmill unmodified potato starch with good results in fixing my leaky gut but haven't lost much weight. On feedtheanimal Dr. Grace mentioned that plantain flour or banana flour is better that potato starch for weight loss. I just ordered some from Barry Farm and will see what happens. Plantain/Banana flour has a bit less resistant starch than potato starch and It's a slightly more pricey than the Bob's redmill potato starch.

[penisbreath]

I've been taking potato starch (2-4 heaped tablespoons) for the past few weeks and have noticed some palpable benefits as well. Most evident is a drop in anxiety, better sleep quality and less depression. I'm not sure if this relates either, but I suffer from chronic major depression and find it very difficult to change/adapt my behaviour. However, I picked up a new hobby recently and noticed a very rapid acceleration in my progress. I'm not sure if it's a coincidence or indeed relates to the BDNF boost.

Slight downsides are a drop in blood sugar (I'm hypoglycemic) and potential to worsen reflux .. I have to take it in milk after food. I also feel a bit tired/malaise'd sometimes.

I was curious:

Have most people noticed that the starch potentiates the Mr. Happy stack? I didn't try it thoroughly beforehand, but on the PS it feels very potent .. almost like methylphenidate. It's too strong for me. Was the potentiation based on how high your starch dose was? I'd like to be able to take the two together ideally.

[alpal]

day 2 of potato starch 80 grams all at once daily, feeling the effects of bdnf in my thinking with creativity and availability of synonyms in my speech. I am curious how exactly the anti inflammatory effects play a role in what i am feeling. I am less irritable and feel better on less sleep. I am also curious about RS's potential applications for sleep hacking. I know inflammation plays a huge role in the regression of performance from sleep deprivation.
I agree with an earlier post about acid reflux possibly exacerbated by PS.

What is another source of resistant starch that should work similarly and have the same dose of active ingredients?

[RicardoW]

What is NSI?

NSI is NSI-189, it stimulates neurogenesis in the hippocampus. Mice (healthy) got 20% bigger hippocampus, I'm guessing a bit less for humans.

What happened did you notice effects on attention span etc.? From Wikipedia:

The hippocampus is responsible for the consolidation of information from short-term memory to long-term memory, along with spatial navigation.^[2][3][4]

[Nattzor]

What happened did you notice effects on attention span etc.? From Wikipedia:

The hippocampus is responsible for the consolidation of information from short-term memory to long-term memory, along with spatial navigation.^[2][3][4]

I'm sadly not BigPapaChakra, I just told you what NSI was.

[BigPapaChakra]

Unfortunately, I've yet to receive any NSI.

I may just go with adding potato starch to using the LEDs again and forget about the NSI until Ceretropic carries an analogue. I used the potato starch for a few days about a month ago, but I was also using niacinamide and some other stuff and had some terrible reactions, so I stopped everything I was taking, although, when looking back, I'm certain it had nothing to do with potato starch.

• does anyone know how long a bag of potato starch lasts (I purchased mine a little over a month ago and don't know if I should use it again or get a new bag)?
• is there any reason to not, just start with these larger doses of PS from the start outside of gas?

I see aspirin as being an awesome addition to this mitochondrial (+PS) stack.

Thyromimetic Action of the Peroxisome Proliferators Clofibrate, Perfluorooctanoic Acid, and Acetylsalicylic Acid Includes Changes in mRNA Levels for Certain Genes Involved in Mitochondrial Biogenesis

Aspirin may promote mitochondrial biogenesis via the production of hydrogen peroxide and the induction of Sirtuin1/PGC-1α genes (have not yet had time to fully read this one)



I'm experimenting with this now.

[magta39]

here is where I have bought resistant starch before. http://shop.honeyvil...esistant starch

[NeuroGeneration]

• does anyone know how long a bag of potato starch lasts (I purchased mine a little over a month ago and don't know if I should use it again or get a new bag)?
• is there any reason to not, just start with these larger doses of PS from the start outside of gas?

If unopened, approximately 3 years. Otherwise, I'm not quite sure. That's why I keep mine in the freezer, as Bob Red Mill's package recommends (or the fridge). With that said, as long as you didn't leave it open and don't see any visible signs of mold or contamination, I'm sure it's fine.

As for large doses, I don't see any reason not to, beyond the gas and physical discomfort it can cause. That is, unless you were very much concerned by consuming excess calories (I know most goes to the colonic bacteria, but that's assuming there's enough there to start with to consume the PS; if not, I'd suspect it may make it through your digestive system and be utilized for energy).

[swen]

Actually the studies suggest to take it all at once. More gets to gut where it can be utilized.

Interesting. Currently I take 20-25grams per serving 3-4 times a day. What would be the ideal time to take it all at once? Before sleep, before breakfast or is there no consensus?

[Raisinthehouse]

There doesn't seem to be a consensus atm. Though i've read a few things suggesting taking probiotics before bedtime, because they'll interact less with digestive enzymes which could destroy them before they reach the gut.

Combining probiotics with resistant starch could be beneficial, and if you wanted to take them at the same time the best time to do that would be before bedtime on an empty stomach.

[OpaqueMind]

Does anyone else get a strong thermogenic effect from RS? I can't take it for this reason, it interferes with the quality of my sleep due to overheating and dehydration. Which is annoying because the effects on my long-term memory are pretty profound.

[hephaestus]

• does anyone know how long a bag of potato starch lasts (I purchased mine a little over a month ago and don't know if I should use it again or get a new bag)?
• is there any reason to not, just start with these larger doses of PS from the start outside of gas?

If unopened, approximately 3 years. Otherwise, I'm not quite sure. That's why I keep mine in the freezer, as Bob Red Mill's package recommends (or the fridge). With that said, as long as you didn't leave it open and don't see any visible signs of mold or contamination, I'm sure it's fine.

As for large doses, I don't see any reason not to, beyond the gas and physical discomfort it can cause. That is, unless you were very much concerned by consuming excess calories (I know most goes to the colonic bacteria, but that's assuming there's enough there to start with to consume the PS; if not, I'd suspect it may make it through your digestive system and be utilized for energy).

Resistant starch is not digestible, it doesn't matter how much colonic bacteria you have, it provides no calories.

There doesn't seem to be a consensus atm. Though i've read a few things suggesting taking probiotics before bedtime, because they'll interact less with digestive enzymes which could destroy them before they reach the gut.

Combining probiotics with resistant starch could be beneficial, and if you wanted to take them at the same time the best time to do that would be before bedtime on an empty stomach.

The probiotic I've been taking says to take it on an empty stomach with 8 oz of water. This is probably so it spends as little time in your stomach as possible, which is quite hostile to most bacteria since it is so acidic. Resistant starch is neither digestible nor alive, so it shouldn't matter how long it's in your stomach.

[Raisinthehouse]

My suggestion to take the resistant starch at night with the probiotic has nothing to do with it's digestibility. Studies have suggested that resistant starch when taken with a probiotic helps the probiotic make it through the intestine intact.

[NeuroGeneration]

Resistant starch is not digestible, it doesn't matter how much colonic bacteria you have, it provides no calories.

With all do respect, I question that assertion, @hephaestus.

Resistant Starch is called that - resistant - because it resists digestion; it does not totally escape it:

"Resistant starch sources, which are only partially digested in the small intestine, can be used to increase colonic availability of short-chain fatty acids."

Source: http://ajcn.nutritio.../2/432.abstract

Now how much is digested, I don't know. But, some is. Not to mention, the colonic bacteria's SCFA production not only feeds colon cells, but also makes it into the blood stream for use as energy:

"When RS is fermented in the large intestine, short chain fatty acids (SCFA) such as acetate, butyrate, and propionate, along with gases are produced. SCFAs can be absorbed into the body from the colon or stay put and be used by colonic bacteria for energy."

Source: http://www.precisionnutrition.com/all-about-resistant-starch

This may very well be inconsequential in regards to weight gain, especially since RS is purported to reduce appetite, but when something is consumed in excess, there tend to be unanticipated (typically negative) repercussions.

[BigPapaChakra]

I don't think fat gain will be a problem with RS - pretty much only long chain fats serve as structural molecules in the cell membrane (at least when following the mainstream 'fluid mosaic' model), outside of some of the 12-carbon fats. This is why MCTs can produce ketones so well - they don't fulfill the same role(s) as the longer chain fats, get sent to the TCA cycle which gets stuffed with ATP, and whatever is left over is made into ketones for use in the body. So with RS, I'd imagine it would just feed bacteria, and whatever got out into the blood stream would be used to inhibit HDACs and what not, as opposed to contributing to fat gain. This is probably one of many reasons RS intake is associated with fat loss and weight maintenance. Though, to be honest, I can be entirely off with these assertions, haha.

• does anyone know how long a bag of potato starch lasts (I purchased mine a little over a month ago and don't know if I should use it again or get a new bag)?
• is there any reason to not, just start with these larger doses of PS from the start outside of gas?

If unopened, approximately 3 years. Otherwise, I'm not quite sure. That's why I keep mine in the freezer, as Bob Red Mill's package recommends (or the fridge). With that said, as long as you didn't leave it open and don't see any visible signs of mold or contamination, I'm sure it's fine.

As for large doses, I don't see any reason not to, beyond the gas and physical discomfort it can cause. That is, unless you were very much concerned by consuming excess calories (I know most goes to the colonic bacteria, but that's assuming there's enough there to start with to consume the PS; if not, I'd suspect it may make it through your digestive system and be utilized for energy).

Thanks for the information! Looks like I have to get some new RS, lol.

[hephaestus]

Yeah I'm probably wrong.

https://en.wikipedia...esistant_starch

Calorie reduction: Resistant starch can be used to replace higher calorie food ingredients, such as flour or other rapidly digested carbohydrates. Natural resistant starch delivers between 2-3 kilocalories/gram (8-12 kilojoules/gram) versus 4 kilocalories/gram (16 kilojoules/gram).[43][44] Consequently, resistant starch is a valuable tool for formulators of reduced-calorie foods.

[macropsia]

Would anything besides acetyl-carnitine be a functionable acetyl-donor? Acetyl-cysteine? I take both, but I'm one of the few for whom a little ALCAR goes a long, long ways, and seems to boost acetyl-choline (or perhaps the acetylation of something else?) in an uncomfortable way (carnitine does not do this). What about vinegar? From what types of molecule does the relevant enzyme accept acetyl groups?

[liber]

Can someone tell me if there's any resistant starch in oat fiber?

http://shop.honeyvil.../oat-fiber.html

I have a bunch of that lying around. Been using it to add to soups and things and increase viscosity. But I have no idea whether I'm getting the benefits of RS with it..

Does anyone know?

Edited by liber, 03 April 2014 - 04:07 AM.

[alpal]

Have to agree with an earlier post about experiencing symptoms of low serotonin on high dose PS

Edited by alpal, 04 April 2014 - 09:16 AM.

[swen]

Have to agree with an earlier post about experiencing symptoms of low serotonin on high dose PS

This was in combination with CILTEP. I have split the dose of CILTEP in half, and now I don't experience any problems.

Are you on CILTEP or something else?

[penisbreath]

What does 'low serotonin' feel like? Also, have you guys had problems trying to combine it with other stimulants like caffeine?

[alpal]

I'm not on any supps besides occasional LLLT, fish oil and TDCS... and butter. I stopped PS and the symptoms went away. To me low serotonin feels like irritability and anal-ness. Get annoyed too quickly.

http://www.michaelmo....net/niacin.htm

I'm a big fan of flush niacin (it hurts a bit). I was really impressed by its effects on my short and long term memory... also mood and hgh. Worth a try I think.

Edited by alpal, 04 April 2014 - 11:24 AM.

[penisbreath]

Were you noticing that on the 80g, or lower doses as well?

I can't really make my mind up about PS. I take about two heaped tablespoons a day. At that dose, there is a noticeable anti-anxiety effect .. and at first my mood was greatly improved (happier, more friendly), but lately I've been feeling quite grey, flat and depressed and I can't tell if there's a connection (I suffer from depression regardless).

I tried 80g once, but it did feel more psychoactive, particularly when combined with coffee -- the combination was too much for me.

[swen]

Were you noticing that on the 80g, or lower doses as well?

I can't really make my mind up about PS. I take about two heaped tablespoons a day. At that dose, there is a noticeable anti-anxiety effect .. and at first my mood was greatly improved (happier, more friendly), but lately I've been feeling quite grey, flat and depressed and I can't tell if there's a connection (I suffer from depression regardless).

I tried 80g once, but it did feel more psychoactive, particularly when combined with coffee -- the combination was too much for me.

You can 'debug' yourself after using PS and feeling some symptoms: http://www.pintochir...m/PHP/sec1a.php

It will give you an idea how your different levels (dopamine, gaba, serotine, acethylcholine) have changed.

[Strangelove]

Were you noticing that on the 80g, or lower doses as well?

I can't really make my mind up about PS. I take about two heaped tablespoons a day. At that dose, there is a noticeable anti-anxiety effect .. and at first my mood was greatly improved (happier, more friendly), but lately I've been feeling quite grey, flat and depressed and I can't tell if there's a connection (I suffer from depression regardless).

I tried 80g once, but it did feel more psychoactive, particularly when combined with coffee -- the combination was too much for me.

You can 'debug' yourself after using PS and feeling some symptoms: http://www.pintochir...m/PHP/sec1a.php

It will give you an idea how your different levels (dopamine, gaba, serotine, acethylcholine) have changed.

Its somewhat useful for what it is (I have read the book also) I wish he would make the distinction between norepinephrine and dopamine in his results.