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Lostfalco's Extensive Nootropic Experiments [Curated]

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#271 salamandyr

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 05:04 PM

Thanks for that, I find it surprising that you don't believe ADHD is a disorder. For people with attention problem or executive function issues (i.e. slow brain + low latent inhibition) - what do you think is the best way to improve those "scores"?



Yeah Major Legend, I guess it would be more accurate to say I find the diagnosis overused, or I believe that ADHD is a normal variant of attention, on a continuum, as opposed to a pathological "bucket". I think ADHD people have superior skills in attending sometimes, but more difficulty in a heads-down, modern sustained attention environment.

And I think the best way to improve function (increase alerting and tamp down response inhibition, in your examples) is to use neurofeedback. 20-30 sessions should normalize "scores" if that's the metric you are interested in.

Meditation should also be able to eliminate any poor scores from "ADHD", if done enough.

#272 lostfalco

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 04:54 PM

Hey LF, thanks for the invite / nod (I'm Andrew Hill).

I must first say I dont know a lot about lasers or pregnolone used nootropic-ly, which is much of this thread. I'm a bit cautious with cognitive enhancement pursuits, and also tend to use techniques that encourage the brain to change versus externally entraining or stimulating it. I'm also oriented towards making small, measurable, and sustainable gains with things that have some good ideas about safety and no drawbacks. E.g. even tDCS may not be "nootropic" in the strictest sense because it can affect some resources in a zero-sum-game fashion, e.g. impair things to enhance some other things.

For the same reasons I'm a bit averse to peptides (oxytocin, vasopressin) because they are so "early" in the regulatory chain, and I'm a bit adverse to most direct neurotransmitters or modulators for similar reasons. E.g. much use of pharmacology assumes a linear model in the brain / body, where you "turn dials" up or down. We know that physiology is massively, recursively, nonlinear coupled systems with feedback and delay.. chaotic / dynamic stability abounds.

So.. I'm all for nootropics, as my involvement with truBrain attests, but if you look at the ingredients (yes, we disclose exactly how much of everything you get in a day's packets) you can see that my choices were fairly conservative. And while we do emphasize that it's a caffeine-free solution, I *do* strongly encourage coffee for anyone who isn't a slow metabolizer of caffeine, for it's neuroprotective benefits. So while there are other things in truBrain to maximize the effects, my "base" noot stack is simply: Coffee, piracetam, citicholine, l-theanine, and fish oil. Pretty conservative, but it gets most people a long way on the nootropic path without getting all crazy with self-experimentation using untested RCs.

I don't even encourage modafinil. Especially not for people who have some attention challenges. The side effect profile for people with ADHD is dramatically higher than the background population. In fact it put me in the hospital in January after low-dose for 2 weeks (100 mg in AM), with body-covering Erethyma Multiforme minor (hives with target centers), and lungs closing up in reaction. Months later I'm still having mild histamine problems. So I'm anti-things with small benefits to cognition, attention, or memory, and possibly serious risk profiles.

For non-consumables, I'm a big fan of pirHEG and EEG neurofeedback. As I alluded to earlier, the evoked / encouraged changes with feedback modalities cause a much bigger and more predictable change to the system. In contrast, entrainment seems to have limited use for long-term change, except in cases where the entrainment stimuli can "perturb" a stuck system (e.g. possibly if someone is hyper/hypo coherence in an EEG band, or something). I might be a bit biased since I actually study neurofeedback and have been working in it for over 10 years, but I've seen it do amazing things in that time. Most of what I've seen has been remediating clinical stuff, but as I dont really believe in ADHD as a "disorder", I do think that improving aspects of attention performance is very possible for neurotypical brains. My dissertation work was a short 5-day nfb experiment where I rewarded based on 3 protocols, or a Sham EEG signal. By the first day the reward frequency was being "echoed" in the ERP produced to the reward event, and significant changes were produced in behavior (lateralized attention testing) easily by the 3rd or 4th session of training. And this was mostly absent in the Sham group. All were "normals", or at least college students w/no diagnoses.

Also - dont forget that meditation is basically executive function training, and takes no equipment. I do believe that those essential techniques of single-point awareness (samatha) and present-time awareness / bare attention (vipassana), can form a core of a cognitive enhancing regimen that will have as dramatic results as anything else we might try.

I think ultimately we are all trying to improve, and possibly transform ourselves. The lore on making big changes / enlightenment / transformation seems to be that if you do several things the chances of having a discontinuous improvement / transformation is much much greater. So go ahead - "stack" a bunch of things.. but all of those things can have poor / unwanted interactions as well as good ones, and that's magnified dramatically if you toss a bunch of things into the mix that have unknown or unwanted effects.

I might lose my psychonaut badge for this, but before I would shoot lasers into my brain (or even tDCS, tUS, or CES!), I'm going to see how smart / performant I get enough with proper sleep and hydration, a sane nootropic stack on board, doing a bunch of neurofeedback, meditating, eating primal/paleo, and getting some regular exercise.

TLDR; I've tried a lot of things LF has, though know little of lasers or pregnolone. I believe self-experimentation may be much riskier than necessary when we under-exploit safer, better understood things that are still accessible and powerful.

Thanks again Dr. Hill. I really appreciate your measured words of caution and your emphasis on limiting harm while simultaneously pursuing peak performance.

If you have time I'd love to hear your thoughts on a few specific ideas. I know you're super busy, so just reply at your leisure...or not at all. =)

1. D-CYC + tDCS...I'm really intrigued by the idea of 24hr excitability enhancement as described in this study. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15199378 Of course, the study is referring to the motor cortex but I see no reason why it wouldn't work elsewhere. It also seems to me like a recipe for over clocking the brain and causing problems. What are the risks here in your opinion? Why would scientists feel good about testing this on humans? Is it even possible that this could be done safely in limited doses (they mention only doing it one time per week at most)?

2. Concentrated Oxygen...I limit myself to 3 minute sips every 10-20 minutes or so while I'm studying (as described in Scholey's work). I just leave the concentrator running and put the cannula in periodically for a little boost (my pulse oximeter says that my oxygenation level goes from 98% to 99% after a minute or two and then stays at 99% for another couple of minutes after I take the cannula out). Am I accelerating the aging process in my brain? Is this going to cause lung damage over time? I'd appreciate even your speculations here since you have way more knowledge of brain physiology and feedback processes than I do.

3. Last Question; External Trigeminal Nerve Stimulation...I've been interested in deep brain stimulation for a long time. I've been following the work of one of your colleagues at UCLA, Dr. Christopher DeGiorgio http://www.uclahealt...detail&ref=8441 for quite some time now. His eTNS system called The Monarch http://www.neurosigma.com/ is now available with a prescription in Europe and Canada. I would appreciate your input on possible complications and dangers of a healthy person using a device like this on themselves (I already know how to 'hack' it). Would it even have a chance of enhancing memory consolidation if worn while sleeping? I know that deep brain stimulation has many risks and is probably not worth the speculative benefits that a healthy person might (or might not) gain. I'd just love to hear a neuroscientist describe those risks and help divorce me of any foolish curiosity I have about trying it. =)

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#273 salamandyr

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 12:34 AM

yeah LostFalco..

1) tDCS seems like a recipe for causing problems to me, too. The article I linked above suggesting a zero-sum in TMS means we might activate networks at the expense of other networks. e.g. Information was learned faster but then couldn't be applied. I envision something similar happening with a bunch of frontal training in the DIY crowd.. and producing a nation of autistic gamers. I really don't know what the risks really are, but you know I come down against "zapping".. in general.

2) not sure - breathing direct Oxygen and somehow getting high concentrations can cause problems (CNS poisoning in divers / hyperoxemia, for example). Do you feel much from it? Ron Harper at UCLA showed that breathing pure O2 can be a definite non-nootropic, et impairing activation / function.

3) again.. why do things invasively? look at all the side effects / problems that people suffer with when they use Vagus nerve stimulation. Any cranial nerve will communicate with the brain in a fairly profound way.. what are you hoping to specifically achieve? Alleviation of epilepsy and depression, per their use-cases? Prob some non-invasive ways to do that (neurofeedback).

So yeah.. unless you are trying to remediate a specific problem that a more risky intervention matches well with, or unless you have a challenge that is causing you significant life problems, and is therefore worth the risk, why not draw a line to only work with truly "nootropic" interventions, e.g. things with trivial or no side effects that promote neuroprotection/neuroplasticity. Otherwise a quest to enhance cognitive function will invariably run afoul of adverse effects, potentially serious ones as you venture out into territory of more extreme manipulation.

If you want to try stimulation approaches, then mag-field stim e.g. the pMF available with the Neurofield is pretty intriguing. I've not used it, but the combination of neurofeedback / EEG with pMF is interesting. I'd probably not go much more radical than that, without a very good reason.

#274 Major Legend

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:16 PM

neurofeedback is pretty expensive and unavailable in countries outside of US, i don't think there is anyway of gaining easy access to it at the moment?

Edited by Major Legend, 01 July 2013 - 10:21 PM.


#275 salamandyr

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:04 AM

neurofeedback is pretty expensive and unavailable in countries outside of US, i don't think there is anyway of gaining easy access to it at the moment?


I think the access situation is similar in many European countries, as well as others. The ISNR and AAPB meetings are full of people from AU, UK, Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands, Russia, etc.. There are directories there of providers, as well as other places like EEGinfo.com and TheMigraineRevolution.com/therapists_directory

"Direct" access is available now too. A very nice 2-channel EEG amp and decent software for training (BioExplorer) can be had for ~ $1500 at PocketNeurobics.com (no affiliation). Knowing what to do can be a bit more difficult, but there are user groups, support forums, etc., A great option for psychonauts and inspired brain fitness seekers, but not ideal for someone looking to "fix" executive function / attention challenges.

But it can be done - and the setup you can get there can replicate almost anything a clinician would do, except for a QEEG (brain map) and some newer source modeling feedback systems. But both of those require dense-array amps, so are instantly priced out of hobbyist brain hacking or casual use. I tell people who want to get serious about self-training that it's a great idea to find someone to provide a QEEG brain map for them for a fee, and work from there. Choosing protocols can be complicated enough without knowing the underlying patterns, and understanding them can hasten response / results dramatically.

Edited by salamandyr, 02 July 2013 - 01:08 AM.


#276 cyberger

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 02:39 AM

From my experience, Pocket Neurobics are solid devices. But the most bang-for-the buck neurofeedback devices out there right now is the EEG EPOC (no affiliation) which provides 14 EEG channels for $750: (http://emotiv.com/st...r-neuroheadset/) (specs: http://emotiv.com/eeg/features.php). For comparison, one professional 8 channel EEG device costs $4,000 (http://bio-medical.c...system-v50.html).

The EEG Epoc is trying to become the first mast-market neurofeedback device so they prioritize ease-of-use: it's wireless, has a long-lasting rechargeable battery, and is easy to position on a person's own skull (which can be difficult with traditional neurofeedback systems involving headstraps, measuring distances with a ruler, using a mirror, etc). There are also published papers backing up the devices reliability: http://emotiv.com/id...php?SHOWALL_2=1. And the Epoc is now compatible with the industry standard defacto neurofeedback software BioExplorer.

If I was to get back into neurofeedback, I would be getting that Emotiv epoc. This may sound like an ad, but it's just someone with a hobbyist interest in the field, which would like to see neurofeedback gain more adoption, as a safe way to help people heal/improve their brains. Currently, the barrier of entry is too high, but if this technology got wider use, it could help people in so many areas: ADHD, depression, autism, bipolar disorder, anxiety, peak performance, more (http://www.eeginfo.com/research/).

#277 Major Legend

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 02:51 AM

neurofeedback is pretty expensive and unavailable in countries outside of US, i don't think there is anyway of gaining easy access to it at the moment?


I think the access situation is similar in many European countries, as well as others. The ISNR and AAPB meetings are full of people from AU, UK, Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands, Russia, etc.. There are directories there of providers, as well as other places like EEGinfo.com and TheMigraineRevolution.com/therapists_directory

"Direct" access is available now too. A very nice 2-channel EEG amp and decent software for training (BioExplorer) can be had for ~ $1500 at PocketNeurobics.com (no affiliation). Knowing what to do can be a bit more difficult, but there are user groups, support forums, etc., A great option for psychonauts and inspired brain fitness seekers, but not ideal for someone looking to "fix" executive function / attention challenges.

But it can be done - and the setup you can get there can replicate almost anything a clinician would do, except for a QEEG (brain map) and some newer source modeling feedback systems. But both of those require dense-array amps, so are instantly priced out of hobbyist brain hacking or casual use. I tell people who want to get serious about self-training that it's a great idea to find someone to provide a QEEG brain map for them for a fee, and work from there. Choosing protocols can be complicated enough without knowing the underlying patterns, and understanding them can hasten response / results dramatically.


Thanks for the info, I'm actually based in Asia at the moment, have you heard of anything in those regions?

#278 salamandyr

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 02:56 AM

It's an interesting device - I've not used it, but I'm a bit suspicious of the fixed sensor locations. I don't want to give up that flexibility doing neurofeedback. I've tried other saline based systems and have found them to be a lot of trouble, too - that also makes me not rush into it.

Also - a big part of the self-training journey can be helped by having other people using the same routines / software. The community of people using BioExplorer and the existing training "designs" (protocols) already in use for it is a big part of successfully using it to train. I think.

I might go with the Epoc for other reasons, e.g. with a basic research budget, but placing three "wires" on your head (two of them often earclips) with a dab of paste really isn't that hard, and the traditional pasted silver disks are well proven for long term use and signal quality. And what happens when you decide to try a training protocol that isn't supported by Epoc's sensor locations, or referencing scheme..?

#279 salamandyr

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:04 AM

neurofeedback is pretty expensive and unavailable in countries outside of US, i don't think there is anyway of gaining easy access to it at the moment?


I think the access situation is similar in many European countries, as well as others. The ISNR and AAPB meetings are full of people from AU, UK, Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands, Russia, etc.. There are directories there of providers, as well as other places like EEGinfo.com and TheMigraineRevolution.com/therapists_directory

"Direct" access is available now too. A very nice 2-channel EEG amp and decent software for training (BioExplorer) can be had for ~ $1500 at PocketNeurobics.com (no affiliation). Knowing what to do can be a bit more difficult, but there are user groups, support forums, etc., A great option for psychonauts and inspired brain fitness seekers, but not ideal for someone looking to "fix" executive function / attention challenges.

But it can be done - and the setup you can get there can replicate almost anything a clinician would do, except for a QEEG (brain map) and some newer source modeling feedback systems. But both of those require dense-array amps, so are instantly priced out of hobbyist brain hacking or casual use. I tell people who want to get serious about self-training that it's a great idea to find someone to provide a QEEG brain map for them for a fee, and work from there. Choosing protocols can be complicated enough without knowing the underlying patterns, and understanding them can hasten response / results dramatically.


Thanks for the info, I'm actually based in Asia at the moment, have you heard of anything in those regions?



No, but PN will ship to Asia I'm sure. They are in Australia. From the asian market I've seen a few devices on Alibaba, etc., but I've not really been able to evaluate them from pics and havent read of anyone using them for nfb, but there are probably some out there!

It's really about finding a match of software and hardware, so I'm sure while you can find low cost 2-4 channel amps, I don't know that they would have the corresponding support in Bioexplorer/Bioera. .you might have to do some programming to get them working with OpenEEG, Open Vibe, or BCI2000, and then build yourself biofeedback "paradigms" (basically BCI run "backwards") if you go the "self" route for creating a training platform, on top of learning to do neurofeedback.

Edited by salamandyr, 02 July 2013 - 03:08 AM.


#280 lostfalco

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:07 AM

This neurofeedback discussion is great! Let's keep it going. I don't want to derail it at all but....

A few reddit threads have recently sprung up regarding photobiomodulation and I think it'd be cool if some of us who have tried it might head over there and share our experiences. I think this therapy has amazing potential to change lives for head injury victims, stroke survivors, epilepsy sufferers (possibly), healthy fools like me, etc. The higher profile it becomes, the more people will be aware of it as a possible cure/help for certain ailments they might be suffering from. I posted on these two threads about an hour ago.
http://www.reddit.co...pplications_of/
http://www.reddit.co...how_about_tils/

Thanks to shrillthrill over there for posting this brand new lllt paper from our boy Gonzalez-Lima at UT Austin. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23806754

Also, a number of you have asked me about purchasing devices from ebay or alibaba...it looks like a few people over there are pursuing those routes and may have better info than I do. The second link I posted looks like the winner there. Here it is again. http://www.reddit.co...how_about_tils/

Ok, now back to the neurofeedback discussion. This is really cool.

Edited by lostfalco, 02 July 2013 - 03:13 AM.


#281 salamandyr

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:20 AM

oh and Cyberger - speaking of channel #s and cost... PN has a new $1K device (QWiz) that has 4 channels of EEG but does rotating channels to give you a full cap (21 channels) of EEG sampling. That should soon allow things like full head amplitude mapping, etc - even if you have to export the data and use EEGLab. Coherence / Connectivity probably wont be good except within physical channel-sets, but amplitude/power distributions should be quite accessible.

Something like that could potentially a nice intermediate between a full QEEG and "training blind" without any maps, and that particular device also supports HEG input. Again, not that Epoc doesn't look cool.. but it's only tangetially used for neurofeedback, and there are many other companies whose entire product lines are built around facilitating neurofeedback. I'm glad they are getting some competition with new software and hardware, but the current players (Thought Technology, J&J Engineering, BioExplorer, Pocket Neurobics, BrainMaster, EEGer, EEGInfo, etc) currently "do" everything you need to, to do neurofeedback, many at $4K or under, with PN coming in the lowest. Aside from PN one of the standard "clinical" goodies is available at www.eegsales.com (no affiliation). They sell EEGer, which is what I prefer clinically and for research, but it's somewhat more expensive.

Edited by salamandyr, 02 July 2013 - 03:28 AM.


#282 cyberger

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:29 AM

It's an interesting device - I've not used it, but I'm a bit suspicious of the fixed sensor locations. I don't want to give up that flexibility doing neurofeedback. I've tried other saline based systems and have found them to be a lot of trouble, too - that also makes me not rush into it.

Also - a big part of the self-training journey can be helped by having other people using the same routines / software. The community of people using BioExplorer and the existing training "designs" (protocols) already in use for it is a big part of successfully using it to train. I think.

I might go with the Epoc for other reasons, e.g. with a basic research budget, but placing three "wires" on your head (two of them often earclips) with a dab of paste really isn't that hard, and the traditional pasted silver disks are well proven for long term use and signal quality. And what happens when you decide to try a training protocol that isn't supported by Epoc's sensor locations, or referencing scheme..?


Yes, the fixed sensor location is a drawback but there are work-arounds: A company representative (GMAC), posted about tilting the headset backwards hit the important sites like C3/C4, and putting the headset on backwards gives a high-density array over a different set of sites: AF7, AF8, F7, F8, T7, T8, PO7, PO8, PO1, PO2, CP5, CP6, CP1, CP2: http://www.emotiv.co...78#message13822. Between normal placement, tilted backwards, and reverse positioning most lateral brain areas should be covered. But the device would not work to hit sites on the midline - FpZ, Fz, Cz, Pz, and Oz.

As far as saline contact quality, the epoc comes with a built in impedance meter which displays as green on screen when the contact quality is good. They are also working on creating a dry electrode (but that's been in development for years).

Sharing designs / software is important. The device works with BioExplorer so many simple 1-2 channel designs could theoretically be used out-of-the-box. But if their was mass adoption there would be chance to share more powerful designs based on 14 channel monitoring and feedback.

So maybe the Epoch is better for future oriented neurofeedback explorers, where Pocket Neurobics is best-of-breed current technology.

#283 salamandyr

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:32 AM

Midline placements are important. And C3, C4 are critical.

Yeah - for biohackers, Epoc has potential, but right now there are many other best of breed - see above - that "just work".

#284 OpaqueMind

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 11:22 AM

What are some of the potential benefits of the use of neurofeedback in healthy individuals? Is it limited to concentration, or can it be used to enhance more aspects of cognition? If you had to roughly quantify the increase you have experienced in certain areas, say percentage-wise, what would it be?

#285 lostfalco

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 02:32 AM

Recent Laser Stack Thoughts

I posted this in the Dihexa thread http://www.longecity...657#entry597657 and then realized I was going way off topic. So, I cut and pasted it over here. Sorry about that. =)

lesterlong, on 02 July 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

It all sounds really good...has any one tried PQQ (10mg) + Fish Oil + CDP Choline (250mg) and then used the laser?
I be really interested in the results :)

My Response:
It's funny you should mention this...I've been running 20mg PQQ http://www.amazon.co...-3&keywords=pqq + 300mg CoQ10 http://www.amazon.co...&keywords=c0q10 + laser + 5g D-Ribose for the past four days. So far, it's been profound. Clearheaded focus and mental energy for days. I think that there is a real possibility here for true enhancement well beyond what I am currently capable of. Keep in mind, of course, that I'm still on my usual stack so the substances are really piling on right now.

I used the one human PQQ + CoQ10 study (sort of, it lacked a control group) for dosing.

There is an excellent 4 paragraph discussion of mitochondrial optimization on page 17 of 'Aging Matters Magazine' (Issue 2, 2013) by 'Smart Drugs' author himself Dr. Ward Dean. Here are his recommendations: 1. Increase Number of Mitochondria: PQQ, 2. Increase Mitochondrial Energy Producing Intermediates: D-Ribose (5g/day), Creatine (5g/day), CoQ10SR (100mg/day), NADH, and IAS's ATP-Boost (combo of ALCAR, ALA, and ATP).

My creatine is on the way, but I haven't decided about the NADH and ATP-Boost yet.

#286 lostfalco

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 03:03 AM

Recent Laser Stack Thoughts

I posted this in the Dihexa thread http://www.longecity...ntry597657 and then realized I was going way off topic. So, I cut and pasted it over here. Sorry about that. =)

lesterlong, on 02 July 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

It all sounds really good...has any one tried PQQ (10mg) + Fish Oil + CDP Choline (250mg) and then used the laser?
I be really interested in the results :)

My Response:
It's funny you should mention this...I've been running 20mg PQQ http://www.amazon.co...-3&keywords=pqq + 300mg CoQ10 http://www.amazon.co...&keywords=c0q10 + laser + 5g D-Ribose for the past four days. So far, it's been profound. Clearheaded focus and mental energy for days. I think that there is a real possibility here for true enhancement well beyond what I am currently capable of. Keep in mind, of course, that I'm still on my usual stack so the substances are really piling on right now.

I used the one human PQQ + CoQ10 study (sort of, it lacked a control group) for dosing.

There is an excellent 4 paragraph discussion of mitochondrial optimization on page 17 of 'Aging Matters Magazine' (Issue 2, 2013) by 'Smart Drugs' author himself Dr. Ward Dean. Here are his recommendations: 1. Increase Number of Mitochondria: PQQ, 2. Increase Mitochondrial Energy Producing Intermediates: D-Ribose (5g/day), Creatine (5g/day), CoQ10SR (100mg/day), NADH, and IAS's ATP-Boost (combo of ALCAR, ALA, and ATP).

My creatine is on the way, but I haven't decided about the NADH and ATP-Boost yet.

Correction: The study was controlled. However, it was not peer-reviewed or published in an academic journal. (Don't you love when someone talks about how amazing their brain feels and then follows that up immmediately with a obviuus misstake?)

Source: http://en.wikipedia....inoline_quinone
"In humans, in one double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial conducted in Japan in 2007, supplementation with 20 mg per day of PQQ resulted in improvements on tests of higher cognitive function in a group of 71 middle-aged and elderly people aged between 40-70, who outperformed the placebo group by more than twofold in their standardized memory tests.[18] Interestingly, co-administration of the unrelated compound coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10) further improved performance on standardized memory tests when subjects also took 300 mg per day of CoQ10. No adverse effects were linked to the supplementation, and the results suggested that PQQ, especially when combined with CoQ10, can be used to improve mental status and quality of life in older patients, and help slow or prevent age-related cognitive decline in middle-age patients.
However, the study was not peer-reviewed and was published in a non-academic journal. No proper scientific study of PQQ effects on memory or cognition in humans has been conducted, as of 2013."

#287 lostfalco

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:01 AM

Intranasal EPO. That's what I'm talking about!

Quotes from Abstract:
"Erythropoietin (EPO) promotes neurogenesis and neuroprotection."
"We here identified a new IN formulation of EPO showing high neuroprotective activity. Considering its efficacy, ease and safety, IN Neuro-EPO is a new promising therapeutic agent in AD."

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23813967

#288 salamandyr

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:08 AM

What are some of the potential benefits of the use of neurofeedback in healthy individuals? Is it limited to concentration, or can it be used to enhance more aspects of cognition? If you had to roughly quantify the increase you have experienced in certain areas, say percentage-wise, what would it be?



I think that all of the regulatory things it affects to remediate challenges also can be affected in "typical" brains. E.g. you can increase vigilance, or calmness, or response inhibition, or specific functions, perhaps.

And I have personally experienced a great deal - I don't know about "percent", because sometimes changes are gradual and subtle, and sometimes discontinuous and shocking. I trained an outlier on my QEEG (frontal midline theta) not really knowing if / what particular quirk of mine or normal function it might perturb.

Usually training produces a small effect when you try a new protocol, and if you don't repeat it several times the effect will be transient. After that FMT down-training, I was really tired for a day or so (in my legs, oddly). And then about two weeks later I had to go buy a nail-clipper. I'd spontaneously stopped biting my nails. I *didn't notice* the change in behavior until my nails started clicking on the keyboard. I'd probably been struggling with that habit for 20 years or more.

In contrast, I did about 18 "SMR" (rewarding 12-15 Hz on the sensiormotor strip) sessions on the central motor strip, and went from being totally functional but still "adult adhd" - e.g. motorically restless and a bit interrupty - to having no problems calmly inhibiting my responses whenever I noticed it was necessary or just felt like it, and gained a bit more stability in focus when i needed, too.

I've done a few courses of SMR training since. I've also done a lot of meditating over the years (therevada / insight / dharma punx ), and to me, a course of SMR (12~24 sessions) feels like nothing so much as getting a few weeks into a good daily meditation practice, or a good long day or two in a meditation retreat. The stability, spaciousness, focus, and clarity that come from vipassana/samatha underscore that they are basic attention regulation techniques.

Even if you are "typical" or "normal", it might be argued that a meditation practice will strengthen and improve the mind. It certainly spares the brain from age-related cortical thinning in some areas, including executive. NFB might be considered useful in the same way, at the very least. We also know that both SMR training and mindfulness meditation can offset or eliminate ADHD to a very large degree, and it's reasonable to assume they are affecting some of the same resources.

Consider - even in "normal" attention regulation, it's not "static", or monolithic... not only attention, but mood, mental energy / fatigue, etc... You ebb and flow in resources, in ability to sustain attention, multitask, keep inhibiting the proper (early / wrong) responses, not become irritable, not become anxious, stay vigilant...

I would expect (guess) that NFB would "move you up" a standard deviation if normal, or maybe half, if you are superior in function now. I've seen it move dysregulated attention "up" in scores 2-3 SDs, routinely (making many ADHD kids "above" typical after training). But more importantly, nfb may get the "machine" regulating a bit better, so it will be more *consistently* performant under varying load and challenge.

There are plenty of anti-aging applications too, for neurofeedback - some recent work on training up peak alpha frequency in elders to restore spatial attention alerting / reaction time that had slowed (as alpha slowed in aging). Improved the group's performance on VR tests of driving, iirc. I've seen it presented a couple of times at ISNR, but cannot remember whose work it is at this moment. I might need more nootropics.

Edited by salamandyr, 04 July 2013 - 04:23 AM.

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#289 salamandyr

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:15 AM

...snip...

I used the one human PQQ + CoQ10 study (sort of, it lacked a control group) for dosing.

There is an excellent 4 paragraph discussion of mitochondrial optimization on page 17 of 'Aging Matters Magazine' (Issue 2, 2013) by 'Smart Drugs' author himself Dr. Ward Dean. Here are his recommendations: 1. Increase Number of Mitochondria: PQQ, 2. Increase Mitochondrial Energy Producing Intermediates: D-Ribose (5g/day), Creatine (5g/day), CoQ10SR (100mg/day), NADH, and IAS's ATP-Boost (combo of ALCAR, ALA, and ATP).

My creatine is on the way, but I haven't decided about the NADH and ATP-Boost yet.

Correction: The study was controlled. However, it was not peer-reviewed or published in an academic journal. (Don't you love when someone talks about how amazing their brain feels and then follows that up immmediately with a obviuus misstake?)

Source: http://en.wikipedia....inoline_quinone
"In humans, in one double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial conducted in Japan in 2007, supplementation with 20 mg per day of PQQ resulted in improvements on tests of higher cognitive function in a group of 71 middle-aged and elderly people aged between 40-70, who outperformed the placebo group by more than twofold in their standardized memory tests.[18] Interestingly, co-administration of the unrelated compound coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10) further improved performance on standardized memory tests when subjects also took 300 mg per day of CoQ10. No adverse effects were linked to the supplementation, and the results suggested that PQQ, especially when combined with CoQ10, can be used to improve mental status and quality of life in older patients, and help slow or prevent age-related cognitive decline in middle-age patients.
However, the study was not peer-reviewed and was published in a non-academic journal. No proper scientific study of PQQ effects on memory or cognition in humans has been conducted, as of 2013."


Anything showing use in non-elders? Elders and may be affected by a lot more things than 20-60 year olds. There are a lot of "trajectories" of function in aging, and a lot can decrease the slope of a falling arc in function. It's great that it does, but I'm semi-adverse to taking things experimentally unless i know they will help me as a relatively young guy (42).

#290 lostfalco

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:27 AM

How I Get Free Journal Articles

I just wanted to share with you guys a quick tip for getting free full-text journal articles even if you are not a university student. I don't know about you guys, but I'm not cool with paying $37 or whatever for a 12 page treatise on the antioxidant properties of rat whiskers. So, in the name of all that's sacred, let me tell you how I got the most recent 50 page photobiomodulation article http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23806754 by Gonzalez-Lima for free. It's really simple and many of you probably already do it...but I just figured I'd share for those who don't know how to do it yet (sorry non-americans, I've only done this in the U.S. so I'm not sure how to do it elsewhere).

So...since I'm not an official university student I just go to my nearest university library, walk up to the "15 minute only" guest computers (with the online catalog, internet, etc.), find the full-text article pdf that I want (university computers have a lot of full-text access that home computers don't), save it to the desktop (usually titled "Damn It Feels Good to be a Gangsta"), open my email, and then send a new message to myself with the article as an attachment or start a new draft message with the article as an attachment (your choice). Then, I just go home, open my email, and download the article while listening to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IJCFc_qkHw



Finally, I read the (nerdy) article and realize that I am actually, nothing like a gangsta at all. The end.

Edited by lostfalco, 04 July 2013 - 05:06 AM.

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#291 lostfalco

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:51 AM

...snip...

I used the one human PQQ + CoQ10 study (sort of, it lacked a control group) for dosing.

There is an excellent 4 paragraph discussion of mitochondrial optimization on page 17 of 'Aging Matters Magazine' (Issue 2, 2013) by 'Smart Drugs' author himself Dr. Ward Dean. Here are his recommendations: 1. Increase Number of Mitochondria: PQQ, 2. Increase Mitochondrial Energy Producing Intermediates: D-Ribose (5g/day), Creatine (5g/day), CoQ10SR (100mg/day), NADH, and IAS's ATP-Boost (combo of ALCAR, ALA, and ATP).

My creatine is on the way, but I haven't decided about the NADH and ATP-Boost yet.

Correction: The study was controlled. However, it was not peer-reviewed or published in an academic journal. (Don't you love when someone talks about how amazing their brain feels and then follows that up immmediately with a obviuus misstake?)

Source: http://en.wikipedia....inoline_quinone
"In humans, in one double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial conducted in Japan in 2007, supplementation with 20 mg per day of PQQ resulted in improvements on tests of higher cognitive function in a group of 71 middle-aged and elderly people aged between 40-70, who outperformed the placebo group by more than twofold in their standardized memory tests.[18] Interestingly, co-administration of the unrelated compound coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10) further improved performance on standardized memory tests when subjects also took 300 mg per day of CoQ10. No adverse effects were linked to the supplementation, and the results suggested that PQQ, especially when combined with CoQ10, can be used to improve mental status and quality of life in older patients, and help slow or prevent age-related cognitive decline in middle-age patients.
However, the study was not peer-reviewed and was published in a non-academic journal. No proper scientific study of PQQ effects on memory or cognition in humans has been conducted, as of 2013."


Anything showing use in non-elders? Elders and may be affected by a lot more things than 20-60 year olds. There are a lot of "trajectories" of function in aging, and a lot can decrease the slope of a falling arc in function. It's great that it does, but I'm semi-adverse to taking things experimentally unless i know they will help me as a relatively young guy (42).

You're totally right Dr. Hill. Just because something helps a 40-70 year old, it doesn't mean that it will help a 20 year old. I just view these as interesting directions for self-experimentation. If they sound reasonably safe (CoQ10 and PQQ seem very safe at those dosages) and seem like they might have a beneficial effect then I'll consider trying them. This particular combination sounded particularly interesting due to a possible synergy with the laser. So far, I've been extremely happy with the results...but it's only been 4 days so maybe I'll wake up tomorrow with no left hemisphere. =)

Dr. Dean mentioned creatine as an element of his mitochondrial intermediaries protocol. I've heard that it is extremely helpful for mental function, especially for those over 30. Have you tried creatine for mental function? With or without trubrain?

#292 salamandyr

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 05:04 AM

I have tried creatine - it has some interesting research emerging, but I've not personally found huge effects.

I might try it again in the future, but for obvious reasons you cannot "swallow everything", both d/t cost, number of supps, and possible mechanism interactions. I used to try stack after stack item myself, but eventually started to go for predictable long term gains versus a bump in function or a weird effect that was transient from trying something "new".

#293 Metagene

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 09:42 AM

Intranasal EPO. That's what I'm talking about!

Quotes from Abstract:
"Erythropoietin (EPO) promotes neurogenesis and neuroprotection."
"We here identified a new IN formulation of EPO showing high neuroprotective activity. Considering its efficacy, ease and safety, IN Neuro-EPO is a new promising therapeutic agent in AD."

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23813967


This sounds really exciting! I remember listening to an episode about EPO on Neuroscene over a year back.

http://neuroscene.com/?p=234


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#294 lostfalco

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 03:37 PM

Intranasal EPO. That's what I'm talking about!

Quotes from Abstract:
"Erythropoietin (EPO) promotes neurogenesis and neuroprotection."
"We here identified a new IN formulation of EPO showing high neuroprotective activity. Considering its efficacy, ease and safety, IN Neuro-EPO is a new promising therapeutic agent in AD."

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23813967


This sounds really exciting! I remember listening to an episode about EPO on Neuroscene over a year back.

http://neuroscene.com/?p=234

Nice find Meta. Thanks for that link. Everyone who has time, listen to Meta's link...EPO really sounds amazing so far for neuroplasticity, memory, attention, neurogenesis, hippocampal function, depression, etc. It even affects cognitive function without affecting red blood cells!

EPO totally reminds me of testosterone right now. In proper doses it seems very beneficial. In excessive doses it can kill you. However, the media has villainzed it so most people assume the 'kill-you' part without the 'beneficial' part. The tide seems to be turning for reasonable dose testosterone (which can be literally life changing) and it'll be interesting to see future studies on and public reaction to EPO.

Tasteless side note: Wow, Dr. Miskowiak is freaking hot (and smart). I think I've found my dream girl. http://miskowiak.dk/ (Attempt at redemption...there are links at the bottom of that page to the wiki article on EPO and two other podcasts on Dr. Miskowiak's EPO research. See, it's all about the science...now when is her next recruitment for clinical trials? I'm feeling VERY red blood cell deficient.)

Redemption denied: none of the links work except for the wiki one. ha

Here's a list of her research publications with abstracts. http://miskowiak.dk/publications.html

Quote from first abstract:
"METHODS: We systematically reviewed the published findings from animal and human studies exploring the potential of EPO to treat depression-related cognitive dysfunction and depression.
RESULTS: We identified five animal studies (two in male rats, two in male mice and one in male rats and mice) and seven human proof-of-concept studies (five in healthy volunteers and two in depressed patients) that investigated the above. All of the reviewed animal studies but one and all human studies demonstrated beneficial effects of EPO on hippocampus-dependent memory and antidepressant-like effects. These effects appear to be mediated through direct neurobiological actions of EPO rather than upregulation of red cell mass.
CONCLUSIONS: The reviewed studies demonstrate beneficial effects of EPO on hippocampus-dependent memory function and on depression-relevant behavior, thus highlighting EPO as a candidate agent for future management of cognitive dysfunction and mood symptoms in depression. Larger-scale clinical trials of EPO as a treatment for mood and neurocognitive symptoms in patients with mood disorder are therefore warranted."

Edited by lostfalco, 04 July 2013 - 04:14 PM.


#295 Major Legend

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:29 PM

still on clomid and still feeling great. I'm having trouble feeling the same all the time, but I think its stabilizing now. I feel great and always "ready to go. Visual side effects have gone away, everyone is asking why I have suddenly become so much more enthusiastic/motivated.

Not sure if it will last, effects seem to come and go suggesting that my test levels are not stable. It seems alternating low and higher doses is working better than before. Overall I still feel great - especially when combined with loads of natural nootropics. I don't come home shattered anymore, when I work over time I come home and I still feel bright awake. I think this is a pretty amazing nootropic actually on that note. On its own it doesn't make me mentally sharper, it just seems to provide me with an "enhanced" body, I guess as body and mind are linked, my mind just has more endurance, as a younger guy.

I did have periods of extreme mood swings, in the beginning I would get super cocky and then I would get angry, then sad and feel like crying over reading something sad. Also my body tone would swing, from being really toned to suddenly losing muscle. Thats why I think my hormones are swinging up and down, probably due to the drug and then my body is also trying to regulate itself.

Now it seems i'm more stable, no longer getting initial "super" feelings, but its still affecting me in a good way, like the way I carry myself and so on. I like the extra emotion too (that has subsided somewhat too now), I feel as we get older we seem to feel and care less, and its great to be the guy with a passion again. For now anyways...

EPO sounds like total overkill, you won't even know what to do with all that extra energy...unless you are specifically motivated about something.

Edited by Major Legend, 04 July 2013 - 04:30 PM.


#296 lostfalco

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 05:24 PM

still on clomid and still feeling great. I'm having trouble feeling the same all the time, but I think its stabilizing now. I feel great and always "ready to go. Visual side effects have gone away, everyone is asking why I have suddenly become so much more enthusiastic/motivated.

Not sure if it will last, effects seem to come and go suggesting that my test levels are not stable. It seems alternating low and higher doses is working better than before. Overall I still feel great - especially when combined with loads of natural nootropics. I don't come home shattered anymore, when I work over time I come home and I still feel bright awake. I think this is a pretty amazing nootropic actually on that note. On its own it doesn't make me mentally sharper, it just seems to provide me with an "enhanced" body, I guess as body and mind are linked, my mind just has more endurance, as a younger guy.

I did have periods of extreme mood swings, in the beginning I would get super cocky and then I would get angry, then sad and feel like crying over reading something sad. Also my body tone would swing, from being really toned to suddenly losing muscle. Thats why I think my hormones are swinging up and down, probably due to the drug and then my body is also trying to regulate itself.

Now it seems i'm more stable, no longer getting initial "super" feelings, but its still affecting me in a good way, like the way I carry myself and so on. I like the extra emotion too (that has subsided somewhat too now), I feel as we get older we seem to feel and care less, and its great to be the guy with a passion again. For now anyways...

EPO sounds like total overkill, you won't even know what to do with all that extra energy...unless you are specifically motivated about something.

Hey ML, that's super encouraging that testosterone enhancement has helped your symptoms. Thanks for letting me know. You mentioned that you are still on clomid...are you still following the rest of Chung's protocol?

You're totally right about motivation. If you don't have goals, directions, and passions in life then all that extra mental energy is just gonna make you restless and irritable.

On a personal note...my ultimate goal is to become a biomedical engineer and contribute to the design of technologies that help Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, depressed patients, PTSD victims etc. as well as enhancing healthy individuals (so that they can design better AI programs, technologies, etc.). I really want to focus on making these technologies safe, effective, and as dirt cheap as possible, hopefully taking advantage of emerging 3d printing technologies so that people can print them out at home. Clearly, I'm gonna need a massive amount of mental energy, focus, and optimal brain function to be of any use here. Hence, the obsessive focus on enhancing my own humble brain.

I'm only planning on living until January 1st, 2060 so I try to take that into account in my self-experiments and goals. Only 16,981 days, 14 hours, 36 min, and 39 seconds left. http://www.timeandda...ountdown/create

#297 Major Legend

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 05:46 PM

still on clomid and still feeling great. I'm having trouble feeling the same all the time, but I think its stabilizing now. I feel great and always "ready to go. Visual side effects have gone away, everyone is asking why I have suddenly become so much more enthusiastic/motivated.

Not sure if it will last, effects seem to come and go suggesting that my test levels are not stable. It seems alternating low and higher doses is working better than before. Overall I still feel great - especially when combined with loads of natural nootropics. I don't come home shattered anymore, when I work over time I come home and I still feel bright awake. I think this is a pretty amazing nootropic actually on that note. On its own it doesn't make me mentally sharper, it just seems to provide me with an "enhanced" body, I guess as body and mind are linked, my mind just has more endurance, as a younger guy.

I did have periods of extreme mood swings, in the beginning I would get super cocky and then I would get angry, then sad and feel like crying over reading something sad. Also my body tone would swing, from being really toned to suddenly losing muscle. Thats why I think my hormones are swinging up and down, probably due to the drug and then my body is also trying to regulate itself.

Now it seems i'm more stable, no longer getting initial "super" feelings, but its still affecting me in a good way, like the way I carry myself and so on. I like the extra emotion too (that has subsided somewhat too now), I feel as we get older we seem to feel and care less, and its great to be the guy with a passion again. For now anyways...

EPO sounds like total overkill, you won't even know what to do with all that extra energy...unless you are specifically motivated about something.

Hey ML, that's super encouraging that testosterone enhancement has helped your symptoms. Thanks for letting me know. You mentioned that you are still on clomid...are you still following the rest of Chung's protocol?

You're totally right about motivation. If you don't have goals, directions, and passions in life then all that extra mental energy is just gonna make you restless and irritable.

On a personal note...my ultimate goal is to become a biomedical engineer and contribute to the design of technologies that help Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, depressed patients, PTSD victims etc. as well as enhancing healthy individuals (so that they can design better AI programs, technologies, etc.). I really want to focus on making these technologies safe, effective, and as dirt cheap as possible, hopefully taking advantage of emerging 3d printing technologies so that people can print them out at home. Clearly, I'm gonna need a massive amount of mental energy, focus, and optimal brain function to be of any use here. Hence, the obsessive focus on enhancing my own humble brain.

I'm only planning on living until January 1st, 2060 so I try to take that into account in my self-experiments and goals. Only 16,981 days, 14 hours, 36 min, and 39 seconds left. http://www.timeandda...ountdown/create


Pretty much...it's actually pretty hard to describe the enhancement. I guess "bouncy" would be the right word here and the reversal of aging. My verbal acuity/fluency has also decreased, not sure if thats because i've become less patient with typing posts, or simply the higher testosterone has reduced those attributes, a wild guess is that my estrogen was high before.

I've been following Chung's protocol as much as I can - eating too much meat and animal products turned out to just cause my body to be constipated, so i'm living off protein bars now which seems to do the trick. Exercising about two times a week intensely. Eating as much vegetable as possible, though since I feel so "up" I've been out in town partying all night + drinking which hasn't really helped me, and probably responsible for my fluctuations.

i've not been treating my body right, for example i've only had a few hours sleep in the past two days, yet when I lost my post just now I wasn't pissed off because I still have energy to type it all again. I worked till 11pm today, I couldn't even sleep on the bus - I was reading, now I am here still awake, but clear minded. This reminds me when I was young and used to feel a little invincible (though its imaginary as the body still takes damage).

I caught a slight cold recently and I feel like I can fight it, didn't even take a day off. And it's probably imaginary but my skin seems a lot shinier too..

edit: i'm actually pretty worried about having to come off clomid, and that if I stay long on it - i'm not sure will there be side effects, as i'm probably elevating my testosterone beyond its natural level, will there be hair loss? I'm very considered about this kind of stuff - I love my hair. I imagine I would have to get my testosterone levels tested eventually when I have more money.

Edited by Major Legend, 04 July 2013 - 05:50 PM.


#298 Elusive

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 08:41 PM

Ok... found you Falco :) Sorry i am butting my post here...but it has nothing to do with current thread... think of it as if i am directly talking to you.

PQQ arrived today. Well i tried 5 mgs of PQQ on its own an hour before lunch and I felt some clearly noticeable activity in my frontal cortex which i wasnt expecting at all. Also I didnt feel any energy boost. I get a solid energy boost with 5 mgs of CoQ10. Mind it i am very sensitive to supplements...small doses do a lot and work faster and longer for me. Thats why i cant take more than... 50 mg of ALC or 30 mg of Coq10.
Anyways after 10 minutes PQQ also made my brain feel dried up like you may feel on cholesterol lowering drugs. Then at lunch i took fish oil and ALC 20mg and my daily multi stuff...and man i am feeling way focused, brain-lubricated and looks like memory is working really good, vision seems sharp and a bit more colorful too. I am waiting for cdp choline to arrive ...with that i will bring all the other doses down... like ALC to 10 mg, PQQ 1 or 2 mg CDP Choline 100mg with fish oil and multi. Then lets see how my brain chemistry responds. :-D

Edited by lesterlong, 04 July 2013 - 08:45 PM.

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#299 lostfalco

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:03 PM

Ok... found you Falco :) Sorry i am butting my post here...but it has nothing to do with current thread... think of it as if i am directly talking to you.

PQQ arrived today. Well i tried 5 mgs of PQQ on its own an hour before lunch and I felt some clearly noticeable activity in my frontal cortex which i wasnt expecting at all. Also I didnt feel any energy boost. I get a solid energy boost with 5 mgs of CoQ10. Mind it i am very sensitive to supplements...small doses do a lot and work faster and longer for me. Thats why i cant take more than... 50 mg of ALC or 30 mg of Coq10.
Anyways after 10 minutes PQQ also made my brain feel dried up like you may feel on cholesterol lowering drugs. Then at lunch i took fish oil and ALC 20mg and my daily multi stuff...and man i am feeling way focused, brain-lubricated and looks like memory is working really good, vision seems sharp and a bit more colorful too. I am waiting for cdp choline to arrive ...with that i will bring all the other doses down... like ALC to 10 mg, PQQ 1 or 2 mg CDP Choline 100mg with fish oil and multi. Then lets see how my brain chemistry responds. :-D

What's up Lester? Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you.

It's really cool that you are trying this combo. How have the past few days been for you?

I'm over a week now and this combo, along with a couple of the other things I've been doing, has been ridiculously good. My brain is as fast as it's ever been...in fact, I actually feel like this may be true enhancement as opposed to just optimization. It kinda makes sense if PQQ actually adds smaller, more efficient mitochondria as some of the research indicates it might. I've been combining this with lasers, oxygen, glucose, etc. and the results have been phenomenal. I'm preparing a long post about it right now with more details.

I'd love to hear your experiences.

btw, I would kill to be able to dose as low as you do! That would save me SO much money you lucky bastard. ha
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#300 Elusive

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 07:44 PM

Lol... ya thats true i dont have to pay tons of money to enjoy these supplements... they last me a long long time ...guess thats good luck in away ;).

Will keep you updated...





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