4029 replies to this topic

[lostfalco]

my first day with the 96. I right now have a feeling resemblant of the way I felt when I was 21. Woke up 2 hrs earlier today. This might all be placebo. I will post another update soon.

Very cool Phil. Thanks for reporting back man. Did you laser before bed?

[lostfalco]

I haven't yet invested in the multi-LED array cause the vetro stays faithful, plus I'm on a break for a while while I take a course of NSI. Do you think it would be a worthwhile investment, that is, is it that much better than the laser? Given the diffuseness of the light pattern compared to the constricted light of the laser it makes sense that it would be substantially more effective, not to mention easier to cover your whole head.

My experience may still be somewhat relevant though - using the laser I've zapped the forehead and both the forehead and rest of the head, in varying combinations, but never just the rest of the head as I experienced frontal lobe stimulation to be the most beneficial of all, at least in its immediate effects.

Yeah, I think you're wise to take a break while testing out something as experimental as NSI.

Good question about the LED...the Vetro does work really well and it's more powerful. If you chose to laser your whole brain you could probably just reduce the time per spot and not really end up stimulating for that much longer. The laser is a bit more focal but it does still scatter significantly as it passes through bone. I would try whole brain with the Vetro first...especially if you've still got that shaved head. =) (ya know, once you're done with NSI)

[lostfalco]

Hey, what's up gwern! Let me give you my quick summary and then a longer answer for you to check out if you have time. =)

QUICK SUMMARY
Quick Summary: one $8-$12 LED array should work.
My Opinion: Full brain stimulation with both is better.

EXTENDED DISCUSSION
My Reasons:
A. Efficacy
1. One laser at two locations seemed to be safe and effective in the Barrett/Gonzalez-Lima study.

2. Whole brain stimulation seemed to be safe and effective in the Naeser pilot study.

Yes, I'd figured you'd say better, but how much better? A lot? A little? eg. is the difference between using the 48 vs 48+96 bigger than the difference between using the 48 vs nothing?

Some money came in and I thought I'd buy the cheap one today, but I don't want to buy one and do some randomized experiments and turn up inconclusive results and have people saying 'ah well, what can you expect? You were using the crummy 48-LED version, if you wanted real results you should've gotten the 96-LED version!'

The difference between 0 and 48 is greater than the difference between 48 and 48+96...in my experience. Aarfai? Opaque? Mettmett? What have you guys experienced here?

There are some additional complicating factors that I'm sure you're aware of...which spots are you stimulating? how many total spots? etc. It almost seems simpler to just go for the whole brain. What do you think here gwern?

I started with the ebay laser and stimulated the f3 and f4 locations then form there ventured to more. I agree whole brain stimulation is better which is why i invested in (2) 96 LEDS. With so much area to cover I prefer the bigger leds to save time. It is way more convenient. I do however use the laser to spot treat the RAS and the spot between the brows since it has better penetration. Yes, something is better than nothing. If you want to be cheap the 48 will work, but personally I'm working towards more 96's so i can fix them together in some sort of helmet with a couple lasers at my key points and see where that takes me.

oh and great find on that mitochondria article falco

Yeah, that's pretty much how I started out as well. Just stimulating a couple of spots at first based on the studies and gradually trying more and more things as I got more comfortable with shining a flashlight at my head every other day. I'm with you...the convenience of the 96 is nice. I just wish it was more flexible for the forehead. It'll work, but the 48 pretty much fits perfectly. I figured it was worth $12. Let us know how the helmet idea works. I think we can probably get the stim time down extremely low.

I'm glad you liked that article. I'm not ready to say this is 100% true or not...but it sounds like a plausible explanation for my experience of the laser as 'regulatory' rather than 'stimulating' per se. If I'm a little too wired it calms me. If I'm a little tired it seems to pick me back up. Anyway, the most exciting thing is the evidence relating to 'why' mitochondria and ATP are so important in the brain...we kinda already knew they were important but now we have a new reason. Exciting stuff for a nerd like me. ha

[phil8462643]

yes i tried it before bed. a bit of warmth in my head today too

[BigPapaChakra]

yes i tried it before bed. a bit of warmth in my head today too

I find using the LEDs before bed enhances sleep, or at least puts me in a state that allows me to fall asleep easier - but I've only done that two times, third time will be shortly before I go to bed.

To everyone:
I just found some interesting information that seems really relative to anyone who wants to increase brain or athletic performance. This seems amazing, but I haven't delved into the information enough. To give some context, there is increasing amounts of information that even in highly intense, typically glycolytic sports events, people can adapt and start using primarily fatty acids and ketones for fuel. To give a very brief introduction to this topic, look at these resources:

http://jackkruse.com...ing-Adaptations (Barry Murphy is an elite level endurance athlete and trainer to world class athletes - he was spoken about in Tim Ferriss' books, he's the one who trained the high school girl to deadlift unreal amounts of weight when she weighs as much as I do almost, lol; He's also started competing in more fast paced, short distance events)
http://www.jackkruse...or-performance/ Extremely science dense, massive post on the PPP (pentose phosphate pathway) and recycling D-Ribose and why carbs are not needed by cold adapted athletes
http://www.jackkruse...ncient-pathway/ Large blog on cold thermogenesis and why it is primordial to eutharian mammals
http://www.bengreenf...thlon-training/ Ben Greenfields Ironman experiment: ketosis + minimalist training; he has another recent post detailing his experiment, but it is apparently only for "premium members". Regardless, he set a new P.R. in Japan and I think he just set another P.R. in his most recent event. Unlike Barry, though, he utilizes lot's of supplements and lil gadgets like EMS and other cool things. Regardless he maintains ketosis and performs amazingly.
http://eatingacademy...ied-self-part-i Amazing presentation by MD and athlete Peter Attia; there is something cool here, maybe it's in the comments, but he says that after a year or two, his peak aerobic output and power output returned to baseline - most people who even consider ketosis for performance think it's only good for long distance, low intensity events. Dr. Kruse has been saying the same thing for years now - 2-3 years of cold adaptation+ fat adaptation with epi-paleo eating and focus on clean water (non-fluoridated), and you can start entering the PPP and become a much better fat burner
http://eatingacademy...es-can-co-exist Peter Attia again, on how carbs and ketones can 'coexist'; essentially you can create glycogen deficits and eat slightly larger amounts of carbs while maintaining an *endogenous* state of ketosis

Well, I just started listening to this: I have not yet finished it, but it's fascinating. Ben Greenfield has spoken about some of these things too - DARPA and Navy Seals using ketone esters or ketone mimetics to enhance combat performance. This is an interview with Dr. D'agostino on ketosis for performance.

This is the product they speak about in the show: https://www.prototyp...?ProductCode=KF it is Beta hydroxybutyrate - one of the three ketone bodies. You can use this and create artificial ketosis, similar to consuming pharmaceutical ketone esters used in neurological studies, for about 2-3 hours.

This get's me largely thinking about my current, long winded, ongoing ketogenic experiment that I plan on utilizing in the future with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu when the funds are available. I wonder what the effects would be, both physically AND mentally. I know I feel sharper in ketosis, and I feel sharper while fasting and I bet it's due to (1) increased catecholamines, and (2) elevated ketones, along with (3) as Dave Asprey says, no blood going to the gut due to food digestion

*Endogenous ketosis* by this I mean, ketones being produced after the TCA cycle is stuffed and the only thing left to do is breakdown fats/energy and make them into ketone bodies. So far, no one knows if this is different than 'artificial' ketosis produced by a diet high in MCTs, or maybe ketone esters or BHB salts. Dr. Terry Wahls was on Dave Aspreys Creative Live Webinar, and she said there are studies being conducted that will prove whether the two are different or not. For more information, look at this:


That's the TCA/citric acid/Krebs cycle. Those boxes represent what different amino acids do. Some amino acids are ketogenic, thus, you can enhance ketogenesis through ingestion of amino acid supplements, and it is being done in the literature as well. So, you can essentially create an artificial state of ketosis through: MCT's from concentrated sources or coconut oil, BHB salts, Ketone Esters, or, Ketogenic amino acids such as leucine and lysine.

What would offer the best performance benefits? A low(er) carb diet rich in MCTs, ketogenic amino acids, and possibly some BHB supplementation? Or, a state of endogenous ketosis + all the other nifty things? Or maybe cycle in and out but use MCTs and BHB to maintain the sharpness of the brain/nervous system that comes with ketones....? I'd love to experiment with these substances if I had the money. I was wondering what the effects would be like of doing Bulletproof Intermittent Fasting with both Brain Octane and MCT Oil, in addition to BHB salts.... I just wonder if ketones would be elevated enough to cause ketoacidosis but I doubt it.

Someone should experiment here and report back, lol.

[BigPapaChakra]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC193668/
D-β-Hydroxybutyrate rescues mitochondrial respiration and mitigates features of Parkinson disease

d-β-Hydroxybutyrate (DβHB) is a ketone body produced by hepatocytes and, to a lesser extent, by astrocytes (11). It is an alternative source of energy in the brain when glucose supply is depleted such as during starvation (12). In vitro DβHB prevents neuronal damage seen following glucose deprivation (13) and mitochondrial poison exposure (14). Herein, we show that DβHB infusion protects SNpc dopaminergic neurons against MPTP in a dose-dependent and stereospecific manner and prevents the development of PD-like motor abnormalities in mice. We also provide in vivo and in vitro evidence that DβHB protects not by alleviating MPTP-related complex I inhibition, but by enhancing oxidative phosphorylation via a mechanism dependent on mitochondrial complex II (succinate-ubiquinone oxidoreductase).

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12149510
Oral beta-hydroxybutyrate supplementation in two patients with hyperinsulinemic hypoglycemia: monitoring of beta-hydroxybutyrate levels in blood and cerebrospinal fluid, and in the brain by in vivo magnetic resonance spectroscopy.


These are the only two things that were notable that I've looked at so far, but I haven't dug into this and probably won't for awhile. I want to learn the exact biochemical processes of everything so I can understand everything better, especially when it comes to mitochondrial complexes, krebs cycle, etc. Oh, and that damn homework I need to get to, lol.

[OpaqueMind]

I haven't yet invested in the multi-LED array cause the vetro stays faithful, plus I'm on a break for a while while I take a course of NSI. Do you think it would be a worthwhile investment, that is, is it that much better than the laser? Given the diffuseness of the light pattern compared to the constricted light of the laser it makes sense that it would be substantially more effective, not to mention easier to cover your whole head.

My experience may still be somewhat relevant though - using the laser I've zapped the forehead and both the forehead and rest of the head, in varying combinations, but never just the rest of the head as I experienced frontal lobe stimulation to be the most beneficial of all, at least in its immediate effects.

Yeah, I think you're wise to take a break while testing out something as experimental as NSI.

Good question about the LED...the Vetro does work really well and it's more powerful. If you chose to laser your whole brain you could probably just reduce the time per spot and not really end up stimulating for that much longer. The laser is a bit more focal but it does still scatter significantly as it passes through bone. I would try whole brain with the Vetro first...especially if you've still got that shaved head. =) (ya know, once you're done with NSI)

Do you have any stats on the scattering effect of laser through bone? When I've done whole brain stimulation I've used the 20 point EEG map as the template, but those spots are still quite far apart, with something like 5 to 7 cm distance between them (on my head). If the laser scatters up to 2.5-3.5 cm then I guess it doesn't matter so much. Did you notice a subjective difference using the LEDs instead of the laser? I'm under the impression you use LEDs now as your main modality, is that simply for ease of use/time save?

[Psionic]

my first day with the 96. I right now have a feeling resemblant of the way I felt when I was 21. Woke up 2 hrs earlier today. This might all be placebo. I will post another update soon.

Very cool Phil. Thanks for reporting back man. Did you laser before bed?

I have encountered same phenomenon when doing only 3min of 808nm laser to f3. I woke up earlier with more energy, period. How deep is the permeability of the laser ray, is it possible to affect more much more areas of the brain even when targeted on one spot?

[Rumpelstiltskin]

So I'm using the 96LED for some time now (three weeks at 2x a week) and had some positive effects. The first days I was very tired. After the first week I noticed some changes in memory retrieval. I could remember things I couldn't remember for a long time. Now I'm thinking of combining LLLT with MB. As (near) IR light could turn MB into a toxic substance, I am thinking of combining the two in a nontoxic manner. As MB has a half-life of around 15 hours in some studies, combining the two on the same day is probably not wisely. So I'm thinking of using MB from Monday to Friday and using LLLT Sundays before going to bed. That would mean LLLT once a week and MB five days a week. Any thoughts?
Some people say that CoQ10 and MB interact with each other and turn them both ineffective. Does anybody know if there is a scientific source for this claim? I’m thinking of using both on the same day. So it’s probably something that need more investigation before I’m going to do so. Furthermore I’m using Rhodiola Rosea, Horney Goat Weed, ALCAR and green tea extract. Sometimes I use TDCS.
So three weeks ago I took the Cambridge Brain Sciences IQ test and scored on everything around 8% tops. The second time, three weeks later, I scored everything in the 1% tops. I don’t say there’s a correlation between my regimen and the score increase, but I do think it helped.
So anybody knows something about the interactions between CoQ10 and MB and MB and LLLT?

Edited by Rumpelstiltskin, 04 September 2013 - 11:08 AM.

[Nattzor]

Now I'm thinking of combining LLLT with MB. As (near) IR light could turn MB into a toxic substance, I am thinking of combining the two in a nontoxic manner. As MB has a half-life of around 15 hours in some studies, combining the two on the same day is probably not wisely. So I'm thinking of using MB from Monday to Friday and using LLLT Sundays before going to bed. That would mean LLLT once a week and MB five days a week. Any thoughts?

It does not turn into a toxic substance, but become highly oxidazing. I do not think it's that dangerous if you use low dose (low dose was not statistical significant over placebo), but it'll build up in your system (afaik) and thus bad to use with LLLT (atleast from a theoretial viewpoint).

Some people say that CoQ10 and MB interact with each other and turn them both ineffective. Does anybody know if there is a scientific source for this claim? I’m thinking of using both on the same day. So it’s probably something that need more investigation before I’m going to do so.
So anybody knows something about the interactions between CoQ10 and MB and MB and LLLT?

I've posted about everything you asked 1 page ago (or maybe two). CoQ10 and MB should be synergystic, no one has posted evidence against that, just claims. MB and LLLT is potentially bad, but too early to say.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Now I'm thinking of combining LLLT with MB. As (near) IR light could turn MB into a toxic substance, I am thinking of combining the two in a nontoxic manner. As MB has a half-life of around 15 hours in some studies, combining the two on the same day is probably not wisely. So I'm thinking of using MB from Monday to Friday and using LLLT Sundays before going to bed. That would mean LLLT once a week and MB five days a week. Any thoughts?

It does not turn into a toxic substance, but become highly oxidazing. I do not think it's that dangerous if you use low dose (low dose was not statistical significant over placebo), but it'll build up in your system (afaik) and thus bad to use with LLLT (atleast from a theoretial viewpoint).

Some people say that CoQ10 and MB interact with each other and turn them both ineffective. Does anybody know if there is a scientific source for this claim? I’m thinking of using both on the same day. So it’s probably something that need more investigation before I’m going to do so.
So anybody knows something about the interactions between CoQ10 and MB and MB and LLLT?

I've posted about everything you asked 1 page ago (or maybe two). CoQ10 and MB should be synergystic, no one has posted evidence against that, just claims. MB and LLLT is potentially bad, but too early to say.

MB interacts with near IR light and could modificate DNA or damage DNA. Therefore it could be toxic. Toxic means that it could be damaging. And why should MB and CoQ10 be synergistic. There's no scientific evidence for that either. We just don't know. Why should it be synergistic? It could be synergistic, just as much as it could be antagonistic. And if MB with LLLT is potentially bad. You shouldn't stack both. Better safe than sorry.

Edited by Rumpelstiltskin, 04 September 2013 - 02:54 PM.

[Nattzor]

MB interacts with near IR light and could modificate DNA or damage DNA. Therefore it could be toxic. Toxic means that it could be damaging. And why should MB and CoQ10 be synergistic. There's no scientific evidence for that either. We just don't know. Why should it be synergistic? It could be synergistic, just as much as it could be antagonistic. And if MB with LLLT is potentially bad. You shouldn't stack both. Better safe than sorry.

I assumed you did mean it changed into a new chemical.
There is evidence for CoQ10 and MB to be synergystic, I've posted about it 1-3 pages back.
I also posted that MB and LLLT might be bad, so no idea why you brought that up, but too soon to say.

[phil8462643]

MB interacts with near IR light and could modificate DNA or damage DNA. Therefore it could be toxic. Toxic means that it could be damaging. And why should MB and CoQ10 be synergistic. There's no scientific evidence for that either. We just don't know. Why should it be synergistic? It could be synergistic, just as much as it could be antagonistic. And if MB with LLLT is potentially bad. You shouldn't stack both. Better safe than sorry.

I assumed you did mean it changed into a new chemical.
There is evidence for CoQ10 and MB to be synergystic, I've posted about it 1-3 pages back.
I also posted that MB and LLLT might be bad, so no idea why you brought that up, but too soon to say.

if theres danger or a warning about any of these supplements or research chemicals, please post again and again. I for one, only have one body and I for one might miss one out of a few hundred posts in a thread.

[Nattzor]

if theres danger or a warning about any of these supplements or research chemicals, please post again and again. I for one, only have one body and I for one might miss one out of a few hundred posts in a thread.

MB is not dangerous at all if not combined with LLLT (has tons of benefits) and only theoretically bad with the dosage we use with LLLT. If people follow the thread and/or read a few pages they'll see the info they need.

[BigPapaChakra]

"Unlike most conventional short-lived radical traps, MBhas the
potential to autoxidize, which means that its reduction–oxidation capacity allows electron
cycling, without MB gaining any permanent stoichiometric or net reduction. Thus, depending on
the medium redox state and pH, MBcan display a remarkable effect: the transfer of electrons to
oxygen or alternate electron acceptors. In this manner, MB may act as an electron shuttle in the
respiratory chain (Figure 2). Taking such MB properties into account, three mechanistic
similarities between LLLT and MB in their beneficial effects on the brain may be designated.
These include 1) neuroprotection and memory-improving effects mediated by enhancement of
neuronal oxidative metabolic capacity at the level of the respiratory chain, 2) pharmacologic
hormetic dose-response curves, and 3) enhancing effects that show brain region activational
specificity"

That's just a small fragment of what is found in that Gonzalez-Lima pdf file. I think MB could be used as an amazing addition to TULIP based off of my limited knowledge, but only if you keep the dose low and possibly even lower the dose of LLLT - but others have already insisted on that as well.

[Nattzor]

"Unlike most conventional short-lived radical traps, MBhas the
potential to autoxidize, which means that its reduction–oxidation capacity allows electron
cycling, without MB gaining any permanent stoichiometric or net reduction. Thus, depending on
the medium redox state and pH, MBcan display a remarkable effect: the transfer of electrons to
oxygen or alternate electron acceptors. In this manner, MB may act as an electron shuttle in the
respiratory chain (Figure 2). Taking such MB properties into account, three mechanistic
similarities between LLLT and MB in their beneficial effects on the brain may be designated.
These include 1) neuroprotection and memory-improving effects mediated by enhancement of
neuronal oxidative metabolic capacity at the level of the respiratory chain, 2) pharmacologic
hormetic dose-response curves, and 3) enhancing effects that show brain region activational
specificity"

That's just a small fragment of what is found in that Gonzalez-Lima pdf file. I think MB could be used as an amazing addition to TULIP based off of my limited knowledge, but only if you keep the dose low and possibly even lower the dose of LLLT - but others have already insisted on that as well.

So people can actually read the posts about MB and LLLT.
http://www.longecity...660#entry609549 - About the LLLT + MB combo potentially being dangerous, I however doubt it. The low dose MB (which I'm guessing people on longecity take) was not statistically significant over placebo, but it was an increase.

http://www.longecity...630#entry609225 - MB and CoQ10 being synergystic (+ adding more benefits).

[BigPapaChakra]

"Unlike most conventional short-lived radical traps, MBhas the
potential to autoxidize, which means that its reduction–oxidation capacity allows electron
cycling, without MB gaining any permanent stoichiometric or net reduction. Thus, depending on
the medium redox state and pH, MBcan display a remarkable effect: the transfer of electrons to
oxygen or alternate electron acceptors. In this manner, MB may act as an electron shuttle in the
respiratory chain (Figure 2). Taking such MB properties into account, three mechanistic
similarities between LLLT and MB in their beneficial effects on the brain may be designated.
These include 1) neuroprotection and memory-improving effects mediated by enhancement of
neuronal oxidative metabolic capacity at the level of the respiratory chain, 2) pharmacologic
hormetic dose-response curves, and 3) enhancing effects that show brain region activational
specificity"

That's just a small fragment of what is found in that Gonzalez-Lima pdf file. I think MB could be used as an amazing addition to TULIP based off of my limited knowledge, but only if you keep the dose low and possibly even lower the dose of LLLT - but others have already insisted on that as well.

So people can actually read the posts about MB and LLLT.
http://www.longecity...660#entry609549 - About the LLLT + MB combo potentially being dangerous, I however doubt it. The low dose MB (which I'm guessing people on longecity take) was not statistically significant over placebo, but it was an increase.

http://www.longecity...630#entry609225 - MB and CoQ10 being synergystic (+ adding more benefits).

Thanks for those. In the future, after I actually have any amount of money, I want to try MB due to it's possible anticholinergic-reversing benefits. On a sidenote, I'd like for other people to view this:http://jackkruse.com...about-Ubiquinol I sent this in a personal message to Falco awhile back. Pretty intriguing stuff. If this is true, people can save A LOT of money. I just don't know the biochemical processes enough to justify any of the claims on either side. There is a post on the Bulletproof Forums about supplements and what not, and it has a lot of information on finding the most cost effective supplements for all the different stacks - I think we should do that for TULIP. I realize that has been said already, but we should honestly do it. The LEDs are relatively cheap and straightforward, but all the LEF brand super high quality supplements may be the rate limiting factor in more and more people attempting this protocol, or even continuing it if they have. I know that will be what halts me from continuing it.

[lostfalco]

Hey what's up guys? So, gwern suggested that I do this in light of the info avalanche on this thread. =) I just started these three threads. I REALLY hope you guys don't think I've turned into an arrogant prick. ha It just seems simpler to divide and conquer. I'm loving all the exciting ideas that you guys are researching and sharing...this is frickin' awesome right now. Thanks to everyone for researching, experimenting, and sharing (and silently reading)! I really hope this helps a lot of people.

TULIP Research Thread: Mitochondria/ATP/Biophysics, etc.

http://www.longecity...biophysics-etc/

TULIP Experiences Thread: Anecdotes and Quantified Self

http://www.longecity...uantified-self/

TULIP Stacking Thread: Laser/LED/Diet/Supplements/Oxygen/EPO, etc.

http://www.longecity...soxygenepo-etc/

Edited by lostfalco, 04 September 2013 - 07:44 PM.

[mettmett]

ugh whyyyyy falco. keeping up with one thread is enough work on its own

aint nobody got time fo dat

Edited by mettmett, 04 September 2013 - 08:25 PM.

[lostfalco]

ugh whyyyyy falco. keeping up with one thread is enough work on its own

aint nobody got time fo dat

Sorry man! I know it kinda sucks but the research posts are starting to get extremely extensive...it's only gonna get worse. I've been researching diet, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, CTE, PTSD, depression, physics, genetics (mitochondrial especially and its relation to our paternal/maternal genome), epigenetics, proteomics, etc. There are literally mountains to share. It just seemed like the best (although imperfect) way to keep things like experiences and purchasing options from drowning in the cacophony. =)

Edited by lostfalco, 04 September 2013 - 09:00 PM.

[BigPapaChakra]

Okay, I didn't know if I should post this at any of the other threads because it doesn't necessarily have to do with mitochondria, so if anyone wants, notify me and I'll move the post to one of the other threads.

http://www.pnas.org/...9.full.pdf html
Prolonged myelination in human neocortical evolution

I've been reading and re-reading this blog: http://www.jackkruse...rain-is-unique/ and I've decided to go annotate all the citations which may take a lot of time. The above citation is citation #3 in the blog.

Very interesting, I suggest everyone reads that blog then reads that cite specifically. It compares myelination of human vs. other primate brains, and we start of with little to no myelin when born, and lots of subcutaneous fat and very little physiological functionality, whereas a chimp has much more myelination at birth, lower body fat, and more functionality. Here is a question I just asked Dr. Kruse on the Circadian Biohackers group:
"(1) do we simply have more myelin in our brains as we age, or do we specifically *accumulate* myelin at a *faster* rate as we age (say, we gain 2% total brain myelin during ages 11-13, but at 21-23 we gain 7% brain myelin per year)? (2) Are there specific actions, foods, supplements, techniques, etc. that increase the rate of myelinogenesis or how much we can accumulate? I understand I should be eating a ketogenic diet, but I'm speaking specifics. For instance, are there foods, maybe raw pastured egg yolks, that if I ate an abundance of, I may grow more myelin and grow it faster? Maybe sources/supplements of phosphatidylcholine/serine? tDCS specifically at the prefrontal cortex, or my current LLLT experiment at the prefrontal cortex or Reticular Activating System? It seems as though a large portion of myelinogenesis comes from life experiences and socialization, and also movement. Should I maybe seek out places to do gymnastics and yoga, lol? Learning new skills, maybe even heart rate variability training daily? Ahhhh so much to learn."

Does anyone know? Could simply doing TULIP enhance myelination of the brain? It appears, according to the above citation, that synaptic pruning in the prefrontal cortex continues on up until about age 30, and myelinogenesis of that specific area continues up to about 27yrs old and sometimes older. I'm not understanding if we simply have more myelin in that area due to a longer life and more experience, or if we actually accumulate myelin quicker when we are in our twenties, plateauing at about 30. If LLLT and/or TULIP enhance myelinogenesis, what would be the effects of particularly targeting the prefrontal cortex and/or RAS with red LEDs/Lasers, rather than stimulating the entire brain?

What about specific nutrients or supplements that enhance myelinogenesis? I was thinking about TONS of raw, pastured egg yolks. I just don't know if that would really have an effect, but as Falco said way back, his favorite brain food was (is?) raw eggs. Dave Asprey also promotes his 'Get Some Ice Cream' all the time, and one of the ingredients is raw eggs. Hmm, maybe eat that weekly and see what happens? Take phosphatidylcholine? I wonder. Any ideas would be great!

[lostfalco]

ugh whyyyyy falco. keeping up with one thread is enough work on its own

aint nobody got time fo dat

I blame gwern! haha jk

My goal is to make these ideas related to LEDs, ATP, etc. as clear and as beneficial for as many people as possible.

So, my humble suggestion is this...let's try the divided thread idea for one week. After that, we can decide to ditch them or keep them if we want to. I mean, all we have to do is just stop posting on them. =) Is that cool? I'm totally open to feedback. This has always been a collaboration.

Anyway, I would suggest clicking the 'follow this topic' button for each thread and then just going to 'content I follow' whenever you log on. It seems to work pretty well for me so far.

I just don't want people who are new to all of this to have to sift through dense scientific articles if they are short on time. We can always link back and forth between the threads. Ya know, post quick one sentence summaries in the 'stacking' thread and get into more abstract scientific and philosophical discussions on the 'research' thread. Just check out the last couple of days...it's gotten pretty crazy in here. ha I've intentionally avoided 'diet' discussions as well for the past couple of months. Once we start getting into that it's gonna get very information heavy very quickly.

Edited by lostfalco, 05 September 2013 - 01:22 AM.

[mettmett]

Lol imo it's better to keep it in one spot.it sounds good in theory but it will be a lot more to keep up with. what I suggest is updating your first post with pertinent information so new comers can be filled in. We've pretty much established a base routine which you did a good job of covering on your profile, we just need people to be able to find it easier. I think there is also a search feature that people can use to see if something has been discussed already in the thread.

So personally, I'm going to be stubborn and only post in this thread . There are plenty of threads with over twice our pages..I think the key is updating the main page every now and then. But that's just my opinion.

[mettmett]

And agreed, diet is something nobody will ever agree on...

[lostfalco]

Lol imo it's better to keep it in one spot.it sounds good in theory but it will be a lot more to keep up with. what I suggest is updating your first post with pertinent information so new comers can be filled in. We've pretty much established a base routine which you did a good job of covering on your profile, we just need people to be able to find it easier. I think there is also a search feature that people can use to see if something has been discussed already in the thread.

So personally, I'm going to be stubborn and only post in this thread . There are plenty of threads with over twice our pages..I think the key is updating the main page every now and then. But that's just my opinion.

You're totally right about the 'first post' idea. I've actually e-mailed the moderators a couple of times about it and they never got back to me. That's why I posted the summary on my profile page. I can also edit the profile page summary whenever I want...which is nice. I'm not sure how Abelard attained first page editing abilities. Maybe I should be on CILTEP instead. ha

Definitely post wherever you want. All this stuff is here for your (and my) benefit. =)

[mettmett]

Lol imo it's better to keep it in one spot.it sounds good in theory but it will be a lot more to keep up with. what I suggest is updating your first post with pertinent information so new comers can be filled in. We've pretty much established a base routine which you did a good job of covering on your profile, we just need people to be able to find it easier. I think there is also a search feature that people can use to see if something has been discussed already in the thread.

So personally, I'm going to be stubborn and only post in this thread . There are plenty of threads with over twice our pages..I think the key is updating the main page every now and then. But that's just my opinion.

You're totally right about the 'first post' idea. I've actually e-mailed the moderators a couple of times about it and they never got back to me. That's why I posted the summary on my profile page. I can also edit the profile page summary whenever I want...which is nice. I'm not sure how Abelard attained first page editing abilities. Maybe I should be on CILTEP instead. ha

Definitely post wherever you want. All this stuff is here for your (and my) benefit. =)

damn, ive always assumed they let you go back and edit your posts but I guess you cant do that. haha ciltep wasnt my bag, no good for me. well hopefully a mod will let you fix that soon it would save a lot of trouble and reposting info which we've definetly run into.

in other news my ebay laser just pooped out on me, sad face.

[IggyKoopa]

I know it would be more work, especially initially setting it up. Have you contemplated setting up a TULIP wiki instead? That way there would be more concise info on dosing and methods, and references could be at the bottom. I recently ordered the 48 led with CoQ10 and PQQ, but it's difficult going through the whole thread to get the most recent recommendations. From what I gathered I'm going to start with the supps and start with about 2 minutes every other day focusing on F3 and F4, then based on how that feels increase the coverage. Also it would be nice having a warning section right at the top of the page, I had ordered some MB since at the time there was talk of some synergy between them...but now with the talk of negative side effects from combining them I'll hold off on actually using the MB until there is some more definitive research. Also thanks everyone for contributing to this thread :D

Edited by IggyKoopa, 05 September 2013 - 05:23 AM.

[lostfalco]

I know it would be more work, especially initially setting it up. Have you contemplated setting up a TULIP wiki instead? That way there would be more concise info on dosing and methods, and references could be at the bottom. I recently ordered the 48 led with CoQ10 and PQQ, but it's difficult going through the whole thread to get the most recent recommendations. From what I gathered I'm going to start with the supps and start with about 2 minutes every other day focusing on F3 and F4, then based on how that feels increase the coverage. Also it would be nice having a warning section right at the top of the page, I had ordered some MB since at the time there was talk of some synergy between them...but now with the talk of negative side effects from combining them I'll hold off on actually using the MB until there is some more definitive research. Also thanks everyone for contributing to this thread :D

What's up Iggy? Here are my most recent recommendations. =) http://www.longecity...1887-lostfalco/

I haven't looked into a wiki...I'll have to think about that. Thanks for the interesting idea!

Yeah, gwern pretty much said the same thing about the thread. It's gotten really long and we've added around four pages in just the past 2 or 3 days alone. As more and more people start using the LEDs and supplements it's only gonna get worse. ha It really does give you A LOT of mental energy. There are only about 10 or 15 of us now...when there are 25 or 50 people who've been doing it for 6 months each it's gonna be utterly ridiculous. It's definitely time to start thinking about how to manage all of this for newer and more experienced researchers/experimenters alike.

Edited by lostfalco, 05 September 2013 - 08:20 AM.

[OpaqueMind]

I'm with LostFalco here, given that this thread has practically morphed entirely into a discussion on TULIP it makes a lot of sense to separate out the various strands of discussion into coherent data-streams. Not to mention it will help spread the word of TULIP - many people may find this thread, just browse it lightly and wonder what the hell is going on. They might want specific bits of information on the stack or people's experiences, yet have to sift through a huge mass of stuff to find it - that will be at best time consuming and at worst a block to their engagement with the thread at all.

[Psionic]

What about specific nutrients or supplements that enhance myelinogenesis? I was thinking about TONS of raw, pastured egg yolks. I just don't know if that would really have an effect, but as Falco said way back, his favorite brain food was (is?) raw eggs. Dave Asprey also promotes his 'Get Some Ice Cream' all the time, and one of the ingredients is raw eggs. Hmm, maybe eat that weekly and see what happens? Take phosphatidylcholine? I wonder. Any ideas would be great!

Hey BigPapa, seems you are reading a lot on Dr. Jack Ruse. Great find about ketosis and performance, I dindt know that full adaptation to keto can take up to 12-24 months.

I think you already saw his Epi-Paleo Rx and I post it here for others too, also he seems to propagate the theory on human brain evolution due to food rich in sea food, so maybe it can have something common with human myelinogenesis:

This diet is the best at controlling inflammation at the brain level to affect hormonal modulation and epigenetic expression
The levels of the pyramid are ordered from best choice for the human brain to next best.
1. The base of the Pyramid is shellfish (oysters) other than crustaceans: Provides the most nutrient density of any food source for optimal functioning of the human brain.
2. The second level of the Pyramid: Crustaceans
3. The third level of the pyramid: Fish
4. The fourth level of the pyramid: Offal/organ meat of pastured/grassfed animals. This is where micronutrient density is greatest in meats but not seafood!
5. The fifth level of the pyramid is where ‘modern day paleo’ begins its pyramid base at our 4th level: grass fed skeletal meats.
6. Pastured eggs if there are no medical contraindications of inflammation like an AI*
7. Seeds and nuts* shading to omega 3 nuts is fine but this becomes important if there is a serious EFA imbalance only on direct testing

http://www.jackkruse...6-epi-paleo-rx/