280 replies to this topic

[Ch!ggy]

15 lbs is a lot, I only manage 2.5 Ibs / week, how do you fit so much broccoli into your diet ?

[niner]

DAY THREE: Half an hour after taking 50 mg spermidine in grapefruit juice, I felt a great deal of energy. Not jittery at all. This has lasted 7 hours now and is still going.

If the polyamine database paper is to believed, this 50 mg dose is less than the amount of spermidine in a cup of canned corn. If supplemental spermidine is really doing something, then we need a reason why two servings of corn doesn't do it. Some sort of bioavailability problem with vegetable-source spermidine? Or is the problem that most people never eat that much corn without a ton of other food? Maybe I need to do the experiment... A can of corn on an empty stomach?

[Hebbeh]

DAY THREE: Half an hour after taking 50 mg spermidine in grapefruit juice, I felt a great deal of energy. Not jittery at all. This has lasted 7 hours now and is still going.

If the polyamine database paper is to believed, this 50 mg dose is less than the amount of spermidine in a cup of canned corn. If supplemental spermidine is really doing something, then we need a reason why two servings of corn doesn't do it. Some sort of bioavailability problem with vegetable-source spermidine? Or is the problem that most people never eat that much corn without a ton of other food? Maybe I need to do the experiment... A can of corn on an empty stomach?

I haven't ate corn for a long time....I came to believe it didn't have the nutritional density of other nutrition dense veggies....but I'm game. I'll buy a couple cans of corn next time I get to the market and report back too. Would a source of fat such as a little olive oil increase bioavailability? Or maybe some black pepper too?

[niner]

Amines are going to be positively charged in acidic media, and will be water soluble. In alkaline media (like the gut) they should deprotonate and become neutral (free base form), which will help them get across membranes. I don't think there should be much of a bioavailability problem with spermidine. As mom always said, chew your food... A little olive oil and pepper shouldn't hurt. I'm thinking about lime, cilantro, salt and a little Tabasco. (in the name of science...)

[mikey]

I remember seeing data showing that those who consumer grapefruit regularly have something like 17 times more potential to experience kidney stones, probably because of its high oxalic acid content, kidney stones being most calcium oxalate.

At least by this paper, it's 37% worse, not 17 times worse (1,700%). It's slightly worse than apple juice.

After mutually adjusting for the intake of other beverages, the risk of stone formation decreased by the following amount for each 240-ml (8-oz) serving consumed daily: caffeinated coffee, 10% (95% confidence interval 4-15%); decaffeinated coffee, 10% (3-16%); tea, 14% (5-22%); beer, 21% (12-30%); and wine, 39% (10-58%).

For each 240-ml serving consumed daily, the risk of stone formation increased by 35% (4-75%) for apple juice and 37% (1-85%) for grapefruit juice.

Grapefruit juice is actually considered to be low in oxalate, while tea and beer are considered to be high.

And in this study risk of kidney stones increased by 44% for each 240-mL of grapefruit juice per day.
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9518397

The point is it seems more prudent to just buy spermidine, weigh it and take it, so you know exactly how much you're getting.

Edited by mikey, 06 May 2013 - 06:56 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

DAY THREE: Half an hour after taking 50 mg spermidine in grapefruit juice, I felt a great deal of energy. Not jittery at all. This has lasted 7 hours now and is still going.

If the polyamine database paper is to believed, this 50 mg dose is less than the amount of spermidine in a cup of canned corn. If supplemental spermidine is really doing something, then we need a reason why two servings of corn doesn't do it. Some sort of bioavailability problem with vegetable-source spermidine? Or is the problem that most people never eat that much corn without a ton of other food? Maybe I need to do the experiment... A can of corn on an empty stomach?

And you'd think people would have noticed. Someone would have noticed the value of corn. So I looked around and found very little. But there is one video from last year. It's an unprofessional presentation and the guy rambles on, but at the 6.5 minute mark, he gets into drinking grapefruit juice for the spermidine content, and points out that you may need SAMe to make it work (which I take every day), then after nine minutes he moves on to corn, and he's rather gaga over that.

[Turnbuckle]

It will be interesting to see if spermidine has any impact on hair color, as there is a patent application claiming this.

Pharmaceutical Or Cosmetic Or Dietetic Composition Suitable For Promoting A Hair Pigmentation Effect

The invention relates to the use of spermidine or a pharmaceutically acceptable derivative thereof as the active principle in a pharmaceutical, cosmetic or dietetic composition. The composition is used for promoting pigmentation of the hair, particularly the shaft of the hair. The invention also relates to the composition which promotes this pigmentation effect, the composition containing spermidine or a derivative thereof (such as a salt) as an active principle and is intended for topical or oral administration.

http://appft.uspto.g...=DN/20120121705

[ta5]

It will be interesting to see if spermidine has any impact on hair color, as there is a patent application claiming this.

Interesting.

In the examples, for the capsules, they only used .25 to 1.25mg Spermidine trihydrochloride.

33. Composition according to claim 24, wherein spermidine trichlorohydrate is formulated for oral administration in an amount in the range between 0.25 to 1.25 mg per administration unit.

[Dominicus]

Yesh I'll pass on the corn, considering the majority of it is Genetically Modified and all the European studies are showing terrible effects on the health of animals.

While the U.S. studies, paid for by the GMO companies, are showing that its very good for you.

Personally I avoid corn like the plague and always read the labels of any food to make sure there's no corn. Much rather take a supplement. But hey, you guys have fun with a can of corn each day, let us know here after a year or two how that all works out for you

[Turnbuckle]

It will be interesting to see if spermidine has any impact on hair color, as there is a patent application claiming this.

Interesting.

In the examples, for the capsules, they only used .25 to 1.25mg Spermidine trihydrochloride.

33. Composition according to claim 24, wherein spermidine trichlorohydrate is formulated for oral administration in an amount in the range between 0.25 to 1.25 mg per administration unit.

And in claim 32, they narrow down the target oral dosage to 0.14 to 0.71 mg for plain spermidine. Since this the smaller dose for the free base compared to the trichlorohydrate is in the ratio of their molecular weights, the implication is that plain spermidine is just as effective. Which could be, but it seems that if a dose of spermidine less than ten percent of the average dietary intake was effective, then no one would have gray hair.

[dislocation]

guys where do you get your infos from ? i checked this "http://www.ncbi.nlm....es/PMC3022763/" and highest content of spermidine is found in aged cheese. in the table on the url it shows 200mg for cheese ! i cant see anything else that high.
meat also has good amount. but check this table to see what i mean "http://www.ncbi.nlm..../figure/F0001/"
in there you can clearly see aged cheddar cheese blows everything apart in content. so what is this talk about gulping canned corn about ?? i assume you guys are vegetarians and are scared of cheese :P

Edited by dislocation, 07 May 2013 - 12:59 AM.

[Hebbeh]

guys where do you get your infos from ? i checked this "http://www.ncbi.nlm....es/PMC3022763/" and highest content of spermidine is found in aged cheese. in the table on the url it shows 200mg for cheese ! i cant see anything else that high.
meat also has good amount. but check this table to see what i mean "http://www.ncbi.nlm..../figure/F0001/"
in there you can clearly see aged cheddar cheese blows everything apart in content. so what is this talk about gulping canned corn about ?? i assume you guys are vegetarians and are scared of cheese :P

Maybe cheese is the true French paradox rather than wine.

[dislocation]

for the person taking the supplemental form, i found this study which suspects toxicity but its not definitive it seems or perhaps i dont understand clearly "http://agris.fao.org...l;US1997053106"

[niner]

guys where do you get your infos from ? i checked this "http://www.ncbi.nlm....es/PMC3022763/" and highest content of spermidine is found in aged cheese. in the table on the url it shows 200mg for cheese ! i cant see anything else that high.
meat also has good amount. but check this table to see what i mean "http://www.ncbi.nlm..../figure/F0001/"
in there you can clearly see aged cheddar cheese blows everything apart in content. so what is this talk about gulping canned corn about ?? i assume you guys are vegetarians and are scared of cheese :P

That's 200mg/kg. 50g is a reasonable serving, which would be 10mg of spermidine according to this database. The other database had canned corn at 32mg spermidine for a half cup of corn, which is a reasonable serving. This database lists corn at 42mg/kg, perhaps because it's fresh? Storage or cooking can raise the spermidine content at the expense of other amines. Cheese is not a high spermidine food in general, it was just this particular cheddar. Other cheeses in the list were a lot lower. There seems to be a tremendous variation in spermidine content of foods, depending on their source, cooking and storage methods, and other randomness.

[mikey]

guys where do you get your infos from ? i checked this "http://www.ncbi.nlm....es/PMC3022763/" and highest content of spermidine is found in aged cheese. in the table on the url it shows 200mg for cheese ! i cant see anything else that high.
meat also has good amount. but check this table to see what i mean "http://www.ncbi.nlm..../figure/F0001/"
in there you can clearly see aged cheddar cheese blows everything apart in content. so what is this talk about gulping canned corn about ?? i assume you guys are vegetarians and are scared of cheese :P

Maybe cheese is the true French paradox rather than wine.

Right.

Petyaev IM, Bashmakov YK. Could cheese be the missing piece in the French paradox puzzle? Medical Hypotheses 2012 Dec;79(6):746-9. doi: 10.1016/j.mehy.2012.08.018. Epub 2012 Sep 13.

Abstract
The low rates of cardiovascular mortality which have existed in France for decades despite high saturated fat consumption constitute an epidemiological phenomenon called the "French paradox". This phenomenon was originally attributed to consumption of red wine and its major constituent resveratrol.

However, recent studies have revealed the limitations of this link outside France. These observations indicate that consumption of red wine alone cannot explain the paradox and perhaps some other constituents of the typical French diet could be responsible for reduced cardiovascular mortality.

We hypothesize that cheese consumption, especially of molded varieties, may contribute to the occurrence of the "French paradox".

This assumption is well supported by newly discovered facts revealing the positive effect of cheese ingestion on lipoprotein turnover and plasma lipid profile, haemorheological parameters and inflammatory status.

Recent advances in cheese proteomics have allowed the identification and isolation of novel peptides capable of inhibiting the angiotensin-converting enzyme which controls systemic blood pressure. A complex time-dependent enzymatic transformation of the cheese core controlled by probiota, temperature and humidity during the ripening process has been shown to result in the formation of substances reducing major pro-inflammatory markers and cytokines (C-reactive protein, interleukin 6, tumor necrosis factor alpha).

Molded cheeses, including Roquefort, may be even more favorable to cardiovascular health due to the presence of secondary metabolites produced by Penicillium roqueforti and other fungi.

Among them are andrastins A-D and roquefortine, whose ability to inhibit cholesterol biosynthesis and bacterial growth may be a key mechanism in the prevention of cardiovascular disease.
PMID: 22981595

[hamishm00]

I also have the same concerns about corn - you don't know what you are getting these days in terms of GMO or non-GMO, and whether or not you are harming your health by eating this stuff.

At the moment I am focusing on grean peas, mushrooms and cheese for their polyamine content.

Edited by hamishm00, 07 May 2013 - 05:49 AM.

[Logic]

...And you'd think people would have noticed. Someone would have noticed the value of corn. So I looked around and found very little. But there is one video from last year. It's an unprofessional presentation and the guy rambles on, but at the 6.5 minute mark, he gets into drinking grapefruit juice for the spermidine content, and points out that you may need SAMe to make it work (which I take every day), then after nine minutes he moves on to corn, and he's rather gaga over that.

I think the guy in the vid is a member here as I seem to remember following a trail from here to the same video.
Perhaps he will chime in with his experiences, but he seemed keen on making some money from all this somehow.

[Turnbuckle]

DAY FOUR: 50 mg spermidine in grapefruit juice, along with my weekly dose of 2 mg C60 & 1800 mg NAC. I though this would provide a super workout, but it was just the opposite. Less energy, not more.

DAY FIVE: 50 mg spermidine in grapefruit juice. Better than day 4, but not as good as day 3.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 07 May 2013 - 03:29 PM.

[dislocation]

^ why are you taking spermidine for workouts ? did i miss anything indicating that it is meant for workout sessions ?

[Turnbuckle]

^ why are you taking spermidine for workouts ? did i miss anything indicating that it is meant for workout sessions ?

Yes, you missed the first post.

[hav]

DAY ONE: One hour after taking 30 mg mixed in grapefruit juice, I felt no different, but I found I could lift substantially more weight on the Nautilus machines, and surprisingly, the knee pain I'd been feeling in both knees on the leg extension machine was completely gone and I was able to double the weight without even a twinge. This knee pain was not severe, but bothersome, and had lasted a couple of months.

The knee pain relief part sounds interesting. I currently supplement with arginine to boost NO production. It seems spermidine happens to be an eventual product of arginine metabolism:
Spermine, Spermidine, Putrescine... Biosynthesis

Spermine and spermidine are derivatives of putrescine (1,4-diaminobutane) which is produced from L-ornithine by action of ODC (ornithine decarboxylase). L-ornithine is the product of L-arginine degradation by arginase...

The biosynthesis of spermine proceeds to spermidine by the effect of spermine synthase (SpmS) in the presence of dcAdoMet. The 3-aminopropyl donor (dcAdoMet) is derived from S-adenosylmethionine by sequential transformation of L-methionine by methionine adenosyltransferase followed by decarboxylation by AdoMetDC (S-adenosylmethionine decarboxylase).

Hence, putrescine, spermidine and spermine are metabolites derived from the amino acids L-arginine (L-ornithine, putrescine) and L-methionine (dcAdoMet, aminopropyl donor).

The part that confuses me is whether spermidine would be synergistic with arginine supplementing, be redundant, or whether it might inhibit arginine metabolism. And have the negative effect of perhaps boosting methionine levels if arginine metabolism is inhibited. I've found studies that seem to support all of these possibilities.

Howard

[Turnbuckle]

A vendor's article on polyamines and muscle growth--

For quite some time, bodybuilders and athletes have been consuming the amino acid arginine because of its ability to increase insulin and growth hormone levels1 while also increasing blood flow to working muscles by stimulating the production of the vasodilating compound nitric oxide. While all of these muscle-building attributes associated with arginine are impressive, several scientific studies suggest an additional function for arginine that also stimulates muscle growth. This potentially novel action involves the conversion of arginine in the body into compounds known as polyamines. Polyamines, such as putrescine and spermine, are naturally occurring compounds that are biosynthesized in the body from arginine. Although their exact functions have not yet been fully identified, it is clear that polyamines play important roles in promoting muscle growth as several recent studies have shown a strong relationship between high polyamine levels and muscle hypertrophy.

http://forum.a1suppl...r-Muscle-Growth

[tintinet]

15 lbs is a lot, I only manage 2.5 Ibs / week, how do you fit so much broccoli into your diet ?

I pretty much live on it, lately. Probably just a passing phase and I'll get sick of it, I expect.

[1kgcoffee]

Personal but relevant question. Since you've started, how many times have you ejaculated? Has it had any influence on your sex drive or refractory period?

[Turnbuckle]

Personal but relevant question. Since you've started, how many times have you ejaculated? Has it had any influence on your sex drive or refractory period?

I've noticed no difference. And researchers noted no difference after treating horses with a product containing spermidine--
http://research.vet....77/Default.aspx

"In these limited observations, we found no differences due to treatment"

DAY SIX: 30 mg spermidine in grapefruit juice. I didn't go to the gym, but running seemed somewhat easier than normal.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 08 May 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[blueinfinity]

Very interesting. How much grapefruit juice did you drink to get a benefit so soon? Was it white or pink gf juice? I think i'd rater get the benefit that way than a supplement.

Do gay men live longer? I never heard that so i'm wondering if its mostly an appearance difference?

Do gay men live longer? I never heard that so i'm wondering if its mostly an appearance difference?

If that is true, perhaps that could be an explanation for women having longer life expectancies also?

What is the inference here, the consuming of sperm is leading to longer lives by both gay males and women?

I dont understand the connection

[blueinfinity]

Yesh I'll pass on the corn, considering the majority of it is Genetically Modified and all the European studies are showing terrible effects on the health of animals.

While the U.S. studies, paid for by the GMO companies, are showing that its very good for you.

Personally I avoid corn like the plague and always read the labels of any food to make sure there's no corn. Much rather take a supplement. But hey, you guys have fun with a can of corn each day, let us know here after a year or two how that all works out for you

This is unfortunately true for most corn and even most soy, but you can find organic, non-gmo soy products, I was wondering if natto (fermented soy beans) also have a high level of spermidine like the dried soy, or if it somehow takes away from the total content? I know natto is used for a variety of healthful things

[adamh]

I haven't seen any organic corn in the stores in over a year. I too avoid it now. Interesting info about broccoli since i eat it every day. Not 15 lb a week but probably around 5 lb, wet weight. It is just jammed full of good stuff for you ranging from fiber to minerals and other things.

I really doubt consumption of spermadine contributes much to longer life or that its the reason women live longer. Many women do not like the stuff and i've never heard of gay men living longer.

I also eat sharp cheddar pretty much every day, maybe an oz or so a day so i should be getting my quota if its as good as they say.

[Hebbeh]

An ounce of aged cheddar is about 5 mg of spermidine at best....less if the cheese isn't the expensive aged variety...so not a lot.

And woman don't have to orally consume semen to absorb the spermidine...they are known to absorb various components of semen through the mucus membranes of the reproductive tract and that it has psychoactive effects acting as an anti-depressive.

http://www.google.co...iw=1366&bih=643

And I ate a can of corn for supper last night and lunch today and can positively report that I don't care to eat any more.

The supermarket had organic canned corn at $2/can but I took my chances with the 79 cent variety.

[dislocation]

guys since this is on topic with grapefruit too im worried to what i read on wikipedia about the red variety that is actually the tastier, better quality;

Only with the introduction of the Ruby Red did the grapefruit transform into a real agricultural success. The Red grapefruit, starting with the Ruby Red, has even become a symbolic fruit of Texas, where white "inferior" grapefruit were eliminated and only red grapefruit were grown for decades. Using radiation to trigger mutations, new varieties were developed to retain the red tones which typically faded to pink.

wait, what ? using radiation to keep the grapefruit red ? lol wtf. did you guys know this ? this is not good news. imagine how much radiation we consumed with the grapefruits. i wonder if radiation also had an effect on the spermidine....