280 replies to this topic

[Turnbuckle]

How much grapefruit juice are you drinking? It is very expensive where I am, 20oz of Grapefruit Juice $32..
I have seen it makes bezos stronger and has all kinds of drug interactions, powerful stuff.
Also I seen a study saying that it can increase the risk of breast cancer in women by 1/3

I'm not drinking much anymore--about 8 or 12 oz--but for a few weeks I was drinking a third to half a bottle of Ocean Spray a day. There are many blends out there with other fruit, but this one is made from 100% white grapefruit (from concentrate and no added sugar). It was quite good after I added sufficient saccharine.

And it isn't expensive--a bottle of 64 oz is about $3.80 in my local grocery. Online I see a case of 8 for $29. Frozen concentrate ought to be even cheaper, but I haven't tried it.

[Turnbuckle]

Didnt found though a exact amount of spermidine in grapefruit juice. While searching it looks like a common knowledge that GFJ have plenty of spermidine but no actual numbers. There is also no mention of high spermidine content in Polyamin Database that was cited above... Are there any study that links grapefruit juice and spermidine ? May be putrescine (with content is high in GFJ) is metabolised to spermidine while digesting ?

I had the same impression. Every source was saying it was loaded with spermidine but no one had any actual numbers. From one of the tables referred to previously, grapefruit had 80% more polyamines than OJ per cup, but spermidine was not broken out specifically. So I suspect it isn't just just the spermidine that gives grapefruit juice its reputation over other juices, but also the furanocoumarins. As for the other polyamines, they can be converted from one to the other, and they are all metabolites of arginine and methionine--

Hence, putrescine, spermidine and spermine are metabolites derived from the amino acids L-arginine (L-ornithine, putrescine) and L-methionine (dcAdoMet, aminopropyl donor)...

Spermine and spermidine levels are also affected by the rate of conversion of their respective precursors, putrescine and spermine. Furthermore, it is known that the reverse conversions of spermine to spermidine and spermidine to putrescine are important as well

http://www.biosynth....sp?topic_id=162

[Andey]

Thanks.
I will write my observations here. So far my plan is to use 0.25l-0.5l per day.

[Andey]

Can confirm that skin condition looks improved after adding grapefruit juice. I cant tell what the difference is but subjectivly its just better. )

[blueinfinity]

Naringenin, a molecule found in grapefruit juice extends the fat-burning half-life of caffeine. (this is from Mr Ferriss, 4HB book)

are the ones here noticing skin benefits also taking any form of caffeine, or just the spermidine?

[Andey]

Naringenin, a molecule found in grapefruit juice extends the fat-burning half-life of caffeine. (this is from Mr Ferriss, 4HB book)

are the ones here noticing skin benefits also taking any form of caffeine, or just the spermidine?

What a coincidence - I am drinking coffe now )
But I dont think this is a case coz if you right than drinking a lot of coffe must improve skin condition. Never heard about it.

Edited by Andey, 28 May 2013 - 07:12 AM.

[blueinfinity]

Naringenin, a molecule found in grapefruit juice extends the fat-burning half-life of caffeine. (this is from Mr Ferriss, 4HB book)

are the ones here noticing skin benefits also taking any form of caffeine, or just the spermidine?

What a coincidence - I am drinking coffe now )
But I dont think this is a case coz if you right than drinking a lot of coffe must improve skin condition. Never heard about it.

This is purely speculation in connecting some dots/reading between the lines but if you regularly took caffeine and it dehydrated it you, but then with the grapefruit, if you got more fat burning and more of that moving around your system, i thought it might help

[mikey]

Could it be dissolved in water and put in a spray?

You could, but the stuff smells like semen (where it was first discovered).

I bought one gram from Sigma.
It was liquid when it arrived. Placing it in the refrigerator rendered it solid.

In trying to chip some of the solid material out to weight it - I was considering taking 10 mg - it returned to liquid quickly. The label says that it is "...strongly hygroscopic."

Also stated on the label is that it "Causes severe skin burns..."

Indeed, as close as I could measure to 10 mg caused a slight burning sensation on my tongue.

Which source did you buy it from?
How did you measure it?
Did you take it by itself or did you dilute it with something else?

Thank you.

[Turnbuckle]

Also stated on the label is that it "Causes severe skin burns..."

Take the warning seriously and dilute it. I melted a gram, diluted it to 20% in water, and stored it in a dropper container in the fridge. The drops were of such size that 1 drop delivered 10 mg. I then added whatever dose I wanted into a glass of grapefruit juice.

[mikey]

Also stated on the label is that it "Causes severe skin burns..."

Take the warning seriously and dilute it. I melted a gram, diluted it to 20% in water, and stored it in a dropper container in the fridge. The drops were of such size that 1 drop delivered 10 mg. I then added whatever dose I wanted into a glass of grapefruit juice.

Thank you. I'll try that.

[Raptor87]

Ooo, I think thats the stuff that makes sperm reak!? I hope you know the source for your supp, notice. There is a lot of poor people out there.

[neogenic]

Couldn't taking agmatine, related to the polyamine pathway increase spermidine?

[Turnbuckle]

Couldn't taking agmatine, related to the polyamine pathway increase spermidine?

It is an interesting compound in many respects, not only as a source of spermidine and for workouts:

The present invention relates to a composition including agmatine as an active ingredient for inducing the differentiation of stem cells, to a composition for enhancing the efficacy of stem cells, and to a cell treatment composition including agmatine and neural stem cells for treating diseases of the central nervous system. The use of agmatine in accordance with the present invention not only protects stem cells, but promotes the differentiation of stem cells, and promotes the differentiation and colonization as well as the maintenance of stem cells transplanted in the body, enabling stem cells to achieve treatment efficacy in the body. The pharmaceutical composition including agmatine and neural stem cells of the present invention exhibits dramatic treatment efficacy, and can overcome the problem of a sharp decline in the efficacy of transplanted stem cells, which is known as the most serious limitation of stem cell treatments

http://patentscope.w...en/WO2011019124
.

We have found that agmatine increases proliferation of hippocampal progenitor cells in vitro and the hippocampal neurogenesis in vivo in chronically stressed mice. This may be one of the important mechanisms involved in agmatine's antidepressant action.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17049113

Edited by Turnbuckle, 07 June 2013 - 11:24 PM.

[Adamzski]

The grapefruit juice is popular in Japan, I was there last week and drank a few "Minute Maid" Grapefruit drinks, its an American brand? I also had a 500ml pure grapefruit juice from a juice bar. It seems like a common thing to drink in Japan as it is as widely available as Coca Cola, it is in most vending machines.

[Hebbeh]

Any updates Turnbuckle?

http://www.scienceda...30901153919.htm

Administering Natural Substance Spermidin Stopped Dementia in Fruit Flies


Sep. 1, 2013 — Age-induced memory impairment can be suppressed by administration of the natural substance spermidin. This was found in a recent study conducted by Prof. Dr. Stephan Sigrist from Freie Universität Berlin and the Neurocure Cluster of Excellence and Prof. Dr. Frank Madeo from Karl-Franzens-Universität Graz. Both biologists, they were able to show that the endogenous substance spermidine triggers a cellular cleansing process, which is followed by an improvement in the memory performance of older fruit flies.


At the molecular level, memory processes in animal organisms such as fruit flies and mice are similar to those in humans. The work by Sigrist and Madeo has potential for developing substances for treating age-related memory impairment. The study was first published in the online version of Nature Neuroscience.
Aggregated proteins are potential candidates for causing age-related dementia. With increasing age, the proteins accumulate in the brains of fruit flies, mice, and humans. In 2009 Madeo's group in Graz already found that the spermidin molecule has an anti-aging effect by setting off autophagy, a cleaning process at the cellular level. Protein aggregates and other cellular waste are delivered to lysosomes, the digestive apparatus in cells, and degraded.
Feeding the fruit flies spermidin significantly reduced the amount of protein aggregates in their brains, and their memories improved to juvenile levels. This can be measured because flies can learn under classical Pavovian conditioning and adjust their behavior accordingly.
In humans, memory capacity decreases beginning around the age of 50. This loss accelerates with increasing age. Due to increasing life expectancy, age-related memory impairment is expected to increase drastically. The spermidine concentration increases with age in flies as in humans. If it were possible to delay the onset of age-related dementia by giving individuals spermidin as a food supplement, it would be a great breakthrough for individuals and for society. Patient studies are the next step for Sigrist and Madeo.
NeuroCure is a Cluster of Excellence in the neurosciences at Charité ‑ Universitätsmedizin Berlin working in collaboration with the departments of biology and biochemistry at Freie Universität Berlin and Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin as well as with three independent research institutions.

Journal Reference:

• Varun K Gupta, Lisa Scheunemann, Tobias Eisenberg, Sara Mertel, Anuradha Bhukel, Tom S Koemans, Jamie M Kramer, Karen S Y Liu, Sabrina Schroeder, Hendrik G Stunnenberg, Frank Sinner, Christoph Magnes, Thomas R Pieber, Shubham Dipt, André Fiala, Annette Schenck, Martin Schwaerzel, Frank Madeo, Stephan J Sigrist. Restoring polyamines protects from age-induced memory impairment in an autophagy-dependent manner. Nature Neuroscience, 2013; DOI: 10.1038/nn.3512

[Turnbuckle]

Any updates Turnbuckle?

I continue to take 50 mg once a week. This is in grapefruit juice doctored up with mio water enhancer (strawberry watermelon flavor). It still gives a boost, and my skin is looking as good as ever.

I don't understand the article you cited, though. They say, "The spermidine concentration increases with age in flies as in humans." Perhaps they mean that with those who live long enough, their spermidine level is higher, that there's a correlation between living to advanced age and spermidine.

Spermidine and spermine are enriched in whole blood of nona/centenarians

Group 1 (31-56 years, n=26, mean age 44.6±6.07), group 2 (60-80 years, n=26, mean age 68.7±6.07), and group 3 (90-106 years, n=26, mean age 96.5±4.59). The total content of polyamines is significantly lower in groups 2 and 3 compared to group 1 (p=3.6×10(-12)), indicated that the total content of polyamines is significantly lower in groups 2 and 3 compared to group 1 (p=3.6×10(-12)). Interestingly, this reduction is mainly attributable to the lower putrescine content. Group 2 displays the lowest levels of spermidine and spermine. On the other hand, nona/centenarians (group 3) display a significantly higher median relative percentage content of spermine with respect to total polyamines, compared to the other groups (13.2% vs. 14.1% vs. 30.6%, p=6.0×10(-4)).

http://beforeitsnews...ns-2499838.html

Edited by Turnbuckle, 04 September 2013 - 12:59 PM.

[Hebbeh]

I don't understand the article you cited, though. They say, "The spermidine concentration increases with age in flies as in humans."

Yeah I missed that when I glanced over the article but believe it's a typo as the original paper says....

Polyamines are among the substances found to decrease with age in the human brain. We found that levels of polyamines (spermidine, putrescine) decreased in aging fruit flies, concomitant with declining memory abilities. Simple spermidine feeding not only restored juvenile polyamine levels, but also suppressed age-induced memory impairment

I've got to get this on my list of pending experiments...

Edited by Hebbeh, 05 September 2013 - 01:14 AM.

[Authentic]

I purchased 2g of Spermidine. It came in 1g bottles in a liquid form. It arrived at room temperature but says to store at 2-6c so perhaps that's why mine is so liquid right now.

I used a very good milligram scale (My Weigh Gempro 250 - I noticed a few people using lower quality scales and I wanted to chime in that what's the point of weighing things if you're going to weigh them inaccurately) to measure out 30mg and added that to a glass of water. I wanted to see if I could taste it at all. The taste was a bit metallic but very mild.

Now 30 minutes later I can smell the Spermidine in my nose. It's not irritating, it's just sort of a sensory note of Spermidine.

(I'm also planning to give a very small amount to my pet which is the main reason I purchased this).

Attached Files

•  spemidine.jpg   88.05KB   15 downloads

[Authentic]

I wanted to mention that Spermidine smells a lot like Natto. I eat Natto once per week for its polyamine content. I find it interesting that they have a similar smell.

I WISH that Natto tasted better then it does. I have to force myself to eat the stuff - and it's difficult.

http://meguminatto.w...minar-in-tokyo/

According to Assistant Professor Soda, the molecular weight of the component in the human body that can be absorbed from the intestines and that digests and absorbs favorable elements is 1,000. Because spermidine and spermine, the polyamines contained in natto, have a molecular weight of 200, they are extremely easy to absorb. It has been shown that these polyamines are able to inhibit LFA-1, an inciting factor for inflammation, which can result in thrombosis.
Based upon an analysis of data from the WHO’s epidemiology survey and research on polyamine content in foods, Assistant Professor Soda recommends a Mediterranean diet, which includes olive oil, fruit, cheese, yoghurt, and seafood. Additionally, he explained that eating, on average, one pack (40~50g) of natto a day may prevent lifestyle-related diseases and the polyamines in natto may prevent diseases like arterial sclerosis.

[Darryl]

Any of the legumes but especially soy are good dietary sources for spermidine. From

Ali, Mohamed Atiya, et al. "Polyamines in foods: development of a food database." Food & nutrition research 55 (2011).

the best food sources of spermidine per serving were:

Spermidine
serving size (g) spermidine (mg)
Soybean, cooked 190 9.7 (but not tofu)
Peas, green 140 9.1
Pear 125 6.6
Lentil soup 250 5.5
Mushroom 50 4.4
Red beans 190 3.7
Broccoli 100 3.6
Cauliflower 100 3.0
Chicken, steak 125 2.2
Popcorn 50 2.1
Cheese 20 2.0
Potato, cooked 150 1.8

Perhaps spermidine content partially accounts for the strong longevity benefits of legume consumption.

[tintinet]

The bulk (pun intended) of my diet has consisted of raw broccoli and baby Bella mushrooms, so I figure I'm getting about 50 mg of Spermadine a day.

[Authentic]

Do you think it's possible that Spermidine could cause a herpes outbreak? Foods that are high in Arginine are thought to cause them, and now that 3 of us are taking Spermidine before our workouts, one just had an outbreak for the first time in 8 months. Could be coincidence but I don't know what to tell her.

[NanoDoom]

I also tried applying it to the top of my head twice (diluted 30mg to an ounce of water) where the hair growth rate is lower and thus produces an asymmetry after a few weeks. Now the asymmetry seems less, but that is purely subjective. There was no effect on gray hair that I could tell.

Looks like a few people are experimenting with using 'home made' spermadine.

Would be interesting if you could keep applying the spermadine topically for at least a few months, and report back if you had any change in hair density/colour.

[Turnbuckle]

Do you think it's possible that Spermidine could cause a herpes outbreak? Foods that are high in Arginine are thought to cause them, and now that 3 of us are taking Spermidine before our workouts, one just had an outbreak for the first time in 8 months. Could be coincidence but I don't know what to tell her.

Yes. It's possible--

These data show that herpes simplex virus of subtype 1, a DNA virus infecting animal cells, contains the polyamines spermine and spermidine...

http://www.ncbi.nlm....s00086-0201.pdf

[timar]

While there have been various food sources of polyamines mentioned so far, I want to point out that by far the single most potent source is wheat germ. It contains 440mg/kg,¹ followed by dried soy beans, natto and tempeh with 100-300mg/kg.²

Both grains and legumes are rich in spermidine and spermine, as well as mushrooms, aged cheese and some vegetables. Citrus fruits on the other hand contain almost exclusively putrescin, which is a good thing for rats but probably less so for humans because most of it is broken down into its amico acids by the disgestive enzyme diamine oxidase which humans express more of.

Diamine oxidase, the enzyme that breaks down putrescine is present in the intestine
resulting in a lower absorption of putrescine. However, spermine and spermidine are well absorbed in the GI tract in view of the higher molecular mass of spermine and spermidine resulting in the absence of enzymes that is capable of breaking down the compound.
Wheat derived polyamine with high content of spermine and spermidine is recommended as dietary polyamines for maintenance of optimal health.

1. http://www.oryza.co....amine_vol.2.pdf
2. http://en.cnki.com.c...NX200701001.htm

Edited by timar, 20 September 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[hav]

Do you think it's possible that Spermidine could cause a herpes outbreak? Foods that are high in Arginine are thought to cause them, and now that 3 of us are taking Spermidine before our workouts, one just had an outbreak for the first time in 8 months. Could be coincidence but I don't know what to tell her.

Yes. It's possible--

These data show that herpes simplex virus of subtype 1, a DNA virus infecting animal cells, contains the polyamines spermine and spermidine...

http://www.ncbi.nlm....s00086-0201.pdf

I don't know. That study mainly focuses on an unusual segregation of spermidine and spermine within the virus.

This study, however, finds that arginine, the primary spermidine metabolite, inhibits a herpes virus and that the virus in turn inhibits death from arginine overdose... suggesting that they destroy one another:

Arginine inactivates human herpesvirus 2 and inhibits genital herpesvirus infection

Although virus inactivation was efficient at an acidic pH, arginine inactivated the virus even at a neutral pH, provided that a higher arginine concentration and prolonged incubation time were used. In addition, arginine suppressed the multiplication of HHV-2 under the conditions at which its effect on cell viability was insignificant. Pilot mouse model studies revealed a marked suppression of death by arginine when the mice were infected with HHV-2 through the vaginal route, followed by an intermittent application of acidic arginine by vaginal instillation.

Howard

[Turnbuckle]

Here's another paper--

Recently, polyamines have been shown to be necessary for virus DNA synthesis in an
isolated nuclear system (Francke, 1978). The site of action of the polyamines was not
defined but the author suggested they could act directly on the enzymes whose synthesis is
directed by HSV-I. From the results presented in this study it seems likely that spermidine
and more especially spermine, which is associated with the virus DNA (Gibson & Roizman,
I971), are positive effectors of the HSV-I DNA polymerase. In support of this hypothesis is
the fact that putrescine, which is not present in the virion, has little effect on the polymerase
reaction (Fig. I c) suggesting that the effect is specific for the two polyamines spermidine and
spermine.

http://vir.sgmjourna.../2/397.full.pdf

And this suggests another use by the virus--

This is to say that the presence of smelly polyamines in the seminal fluid is not something that can be readily amended, as it goes all the way to structural properties of the molecule of life. The polyamines are very ancient: the bacteria rely on them to induce DNA folds and compactify, and so do some DNA-containing viruses. For example, herpes simplex virus contains a lot of spermine and spermidine: these cations are used to tightly pack its ds DNA into the capsid, which is the similar task to that of the sperm cell.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....v00056-0095.pdf

Edited by Turnbuckle, 20 September 2013 - 11:23 PM.

[Authentic]

Thank you for posting all of this research, it will be interesting to see if we get any further anecdotal reports of spermidine supplementation causing herpes outbreaks. I've shared all of this with her.

BTW our method of dispensing is to dissolve the spermidine into sterile water then draw it all into a larger syringe and refrigerate. It is diluted such that each .10cc contains 50mg spermidine. I found the spermidine to be very solvent like before dilution.

[niner]

our method of dispensing is to dissolve the spermidine into sterile water then draw it all into a larger syringe and refrigerate. It is diluted such that each .10cc contains 50mg spermidine. I found the spermidine to be very solvent like before dilution.

Do you mean each 1.0cc? If you have 50mg spermidine in 0.1cc, that's 500mg spermidine in 1.0cc of solution. That's physically possible, but it's more spermidine than water.

[Turnbuckle]

From Sigma:

Storage/Stability

Spermidine is very hygroscopic and air sensitive.
A solution can be formed for storage by dissolving
1.45 g in 10 ml of water and then sterilizing with a
0.22 µm filter. Store this solution as single-use
aliquots at −20 °C for no more than one month.
Spermidine free base should be sterile-filtered and not
autoclaved, if a sterile solution is necessary.

I don't see any need for filtering for oral use, and of course it must then be further diluted, as by adding to fruit juice.