280 replies to this topic

[TRUGAN]

uhm all places i ever buy anything, herbs included, would say its not for human consumption. i dont get whats the point of what you are saying.

why would they say its OK for humans to consume material that is not approved by FDA? that puts them in bad position, doesnt it, genius??

anyway, ive taken so many things sold online as "not for human consumption" even simple herbs like kratom are sold this way because FDA hasnt approved it for anything. same as all racetams. What, you are telling me someone will sell racetams and say CONSUME! ? cmon dude, be smarter than that

 

 

LOL...Apparently, you haven't taken the smart drugs yet or they don't work for you and that's not meant to be an insult but you'll probably take it that way. Higher species (those after the Neanderthals) have evolved to disagree with each other without resorting to childish name calling or insults. I do realize that a huge chunk of our population would make you believe otherwise but then we don't really know how many of them have large chunks of that Neanderthall DNA in them. Anyway, you can disagree without appearing to be one of those things and folks will take you more seriously.

 

Now that we got that out of the way. 

 

 You certainly can take that stuff if they will sell it to you but good luck with that. However, It would be interesting to see how it goes for someone like yourself. As for myself, I'll wait for a safer source or maybe even something more than mice trials before I drop a bunch of money on it. For all we know it may take several grams of daily doses for humans to benefit depending on the specific benefit you're after and some of those benefits that you guys might be after may only be possible if you started taking this as a child.

 

 Maybe it turns out to be awesome stuff...who knows. Maybe you should try to get a big company to come out with it as mentioned earlier or a Chinese lab to make it.

[TRUGAN]

It seems likely that a reason that a supplement manufacturer hasn't included it in a formula is because of the name and the odor/aroma.

 

It has an unmistakable smell that tends to gross guys, at least, out. It may affect women differently, but every guy friend that I have had smell a bottle of it was immediately repelled. Pretty funny!

 

What other name could a supplement manufacturer call it that wouldn't produce disdain?

 

They'd probably do something to eliminate or cover the smell as much as possible to the extent they can without harming the product. As for a name that's probably the least of worries for them. I would think.

[Harkijn]

Yesterday, in one of the many spermidine threads I posted this link about a supplement that among other ingredients contains spermidine.

http://www.tricovel....ting-hair-loss/

I have not used the supp and am not affiliated. The pdf you will find on that site is very informative.

 

Also note that the body's own synthesis of spermidine is supported by eating enough selenium.

[TRUGAN]

Yesterday, in one of the many spermidine threads I posted this link about a supplement that among other ingredients contains spermidine.

http://www.tricovel....ting-hair-loss/

I have not used the supp and am not affiliated. The pdf you will find on that site is very informative.

 

Also note that the body's own synthesis of spermidine is supported by eating enough selenium.

 

 

That's a good find. It claims to have 0.5 mg in each tablet. This would be a good place to start inquiring with the company to see if it's feasible to make a spermidine only product containing a much higher dose. They already have a source of the ingridient. However, they may not consider this being worth their time for just a few people on this board. I can't help but laugh a little when I see that ad with the girl and her healthy and shiny hair next to the words that say spermidine.

[Daniel Cooper]

That's a great find that someone actually is putting it in a commercially available product, but unfortunately 0.5mg is a very small quantity.  I haven't looked at all the studies and applied the proper scaling factor to get to a human dose, but I'm thinking several 10's of mg at least.  I think @Turnbuckle is taking 30mg/day if memory serves.

 

I wonder if that company would be interested in selling it as a stand alone supplement in a higher dose.

 

 

 

[TRUGAN]

That's a great find that someone actually is putting it in a commercially available product, but unfortunately 0.5mg is a very small quantity.  I haven't looked at all the studies and applied the proper scaling factor to get to a human dose, but I'm thinking several 10's of mg at least.  I think @Turnbuckle is taking 30mg/day if memory serves.

 

I wonder if that company would be interested in selling it as a stand alone supplement in a higher dose.

 

 

You should contact them and see.

[Turnbuckle]

That's a great find that someone actually is putting it in a commercially available product, but unfortunately 0.5mg is a very small quantity.  I haven't looked at all the studies and applied the proper scaling factor to get to a human dose, but I'm thinking several 10's of mg at least.  I think @Turnbuckle is taking 30mg/day if memory serves.

 

I wonder if that company would be interested in selling it as a stand alone supplement in a higher dose.

 

Actually, I was using that much about once a week, but I haven't used it in a while. The best way to deliver it, in my opinion, is dissolved in water in a dropper bottle. The smell is not objectionable that way, and it has almost no taste if dissolved in fruit juice, preferably grapefruit juice. There's another chemical even better for inducing mitophagy--CCCP (carbonyl cyanide 3-chlorophenylhydrazone). CCCP is a strong promoter of mito fission, even stronger than spermidine, which allows defective mitochondria to be recycled into lysosomes. See Fig 2e in this paper.

 

CCCP extends lifespan of C. elegans--

 

C. elegans longevity pathways converge to decrease mitochondrial membrane potential.

Furthermore, lifespan can be significantly extended with the uncoupler carbonylcyanide-3-chlorophenylhydrazone (CCCP)...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../?term=19442682

 

 

 

CCCP is not outrageously expensive, but has the same retail availability problem as spermidine. As it interferes with ATP synthesis, daily use would be toxic, while intermittent use could be useful. More recently I've been using the NAD precursors nicotinamide + ribose, which also reduces ATP synthesis in large doses and promote fission and mitophagy. These supplements are very safe when used intermittently, and very inexpensive--

 

See the threads Exercise Like a Girl and Manipulating mitochondrial dynamics.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 11 September 2017 - 04:37 PM.

[Harkijn]

Well, to each his own. Returning to spermidine however: there have been concerns about its role in cancer growth. Perhaps 0.5 mg (but not the other ingredients in this supp, unless you are proven deficient in them) Is not a bad daily addition to eating beans, tempe, wheatgerms.

[Daniel Cooper]

I haven't seen the articles about cancer growth.  Could you link us to one of them?

 

 

 

[Harkijn]

I haven't seen the articles about cancer growth.  Could you link us to one of them?

Actually there are very many, though not all of them about causal relations. I found this one comprehensible for an informed outsider such as me:

http://onlinelibrary...3.tb00210.x/pdf

 

I do not want to cause panic. It probably is just  not a case of taking large quantities....

[normalizing]

 

uhm all places i ever buy anything, herbs included, would say its not for human consumption. i dont get whats the point of what you are saying.

why would they say its OK for humans to consume material that is not approved by FDA? that puts them in bad position, doesnt it, genius??

anyway, ive taken so many things sold online as "not for human consumption" even simple herbs like kratom are sold this way because FDA hasnt approved it for anything. same as all racetams. What, you are telling me someone will sell racetams and say CONSUME! ? cmon dude, be smarter than that

 

 

LOL...Apparently, you haven't taken the smart drugs yet or they don't work for you and that's not meant to be an insult but you'll probably take it that way. Higher species (those after the Neanderthals) have evolved to disagree with each other without resorting to childish name calling or insults. I do realize that a huge chunk of our population would make you believe otherwise but then we don't really know how many of them have large chunks of that Neanderthall DNA in them. Anyway, you can disagree without appearing to be one of those things and folks will take you more seriously.

 

Now that we got that out of the way. 

 

 You certainly can take that stuff if they will sell it to you but good luck with that. However, It would be interesting to see how it goes for someone like yourself. As for myself, I'll wait for a safer source or maybe even something more than mice trials before I drop a bunch of money on it. For all we know it may take several grams of daily doses for humans to benefit depending on the specific benefit you're after and some of those benefits that you guys might be after may only be possible if you started taking this as a child.

 

 Maybe it turns out to be awesome stuff...who knows. Maybe you should try to get a big company to come out with it as mentioned earlier or a Chinese lab to make it.

 

 

yeah and your response going back to saying how some people are still neanderthals is so witty and mature. i didnt resort to name calling, "genius" is not an insult, unless you take it as one i dont get your thinking about this but ok. also saying be smarter than that IS ALSO NOT NAME CALLING. wow you are a sensitive gal it seems i apologize and i wont respond to you anymore

 

ah and yeh, good luck thinking CHINESE products are better and safer ;-)

[normalizing]

Yesterday, in one of the many spermidine threads I posted this link about a supplement that among other ingredients contains spermidine.

http://www.tricovel....ting-hair-loss/

I have not used the supp and am not affiliated. The pdf you will find on that site is very informative.

 

Also note that the body's own synthesis of spermidine is supported by eating enough selenium.

 

wait, if spermidine is made through consumption of selenium, whats the point of even bothering with spermidine??

 

where did you find this info??

[normalizing]

i was wondering this, since someone mentioned wheat germ contains it, but from research i see wheat germ oil is actually more nutritious than plain wheat germ. i wonder if spermidine is even higher in wheat germ oil in comparison.... if anyone has a clue

[Harkijn]

 

 

 

wait, if spermidine is made through consumption of selenium, whats the point of even bothering with spermidine??

 

where did you find this info??

 

I found several sources for this but deleted some of my notes  However, I can point you to this study saying that moderate selenium promotes spermidine while more selenium restricts it!

http://scialert.net/....2008.1149.1157

Arginine and Ornithine are also mentioned as building blocks for polyamines such as spermidine.

 

 

Of course someone can ingest  enough of such 'building blocks''  but still not produce enough spermidine. So eating spermidine rich foods may be a useful addition.

[Daniel Cooper]

So what would be the downside to consuming wheatgerm as a source?  Assuming you don't have celiac.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Harkijn]

Some posters in another thread have reservations about wheat. They are afraid of wheatbelly  and wheatbrain, but are considering taking a few tablespoons of wheatgerms per day in order to glean spermidine.

I have been taking  three tablespoons per day since spermidine came into the news a few years ago. No spectacular effects but no wheatbelly too  I see no downsides.

[normalizing]

probably only downside is money related since you dont really notice benefits. do you consume powder wheat germ or wheat germ oil?

[Harkijn]

probably only downside is money related since you dont really notice benefits. do you consume powder wheat germ or wheat germ oil?

Well, here 400 grammes of wheat germ cost about 3 euros. The package lasts me weeks.

About the oil: saturated fats are not Public Enemy Nr.1 anymore but I avoid eating them on a regular basis. Extra problem with wheatgerm oil: it's taste is so strong, to put it mildly, that I for one would not notice if the oil got rancid.

[Filler]

How sensitive is raw wheat germ to heat? The toasted variety at my local store has added folic acid, vitamin a, and e not to mention double the price of raw. Can only find raw wheat germ online but its pretty hot here right now.

 

[Harkijn]

How sensitive is raw wheat germ to heat? The toasted variety at my local store has added folic acid, vitamin a, and e not to mention double the price of raw. Can only find raw wheat germ online but its pretty hot here right now.

I hope more knowledgeable people than me step in here. The directions on the package of my raw wheatgerm just say: store in a dark dry place. My impression is that keeping dry is more important than keeping cool.....

[Chris Pollyanna]

I keep my wheat germ in the fridge, just in case. 

[aconita]

Wheat germ is full loaded with gluten, likely you are getting more damage from it than benefits from the tiny spermidine amounts.

[normalizing]

i dont think processed wheat germ oil which has enormous amounts of vitamin e and octacosanol has as much gluten as plain wheat or its powder form

[Captain Obvious]

I store my wheat germ in the freezer, and use about 0,5 cup day by throwing it in a blender with soy milk, vanilla flavoured whey protein, tart cherries, goji berries, bilberries (European wild blueberries), oats, cinnamon and rose hip powder. Sweeten with glycine and stevia. 

 

In fact drinking one right now!

There's about 45 mg of polyamines per 100 g of wheat germ [1], but I wonder how much of that is spermidine and what is the optimal dosage. Anybody?
 

EDIT: Found the answer to the first question in Wikipedia [2], according to which there's 24 mg/100 g of spermidine in wheat germ. A half cup of wheat germ weighs around 50-60 grams, so my smoothie would yield maybe about 10-15 mg of spermidine per day. The amount could be easily doubled by just using a full cup of wheat germ.

 

 

[1] http://www.oryza.co....amine_vol.2.pdf

[2]  https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Spermidine

Edited by Captain Obvious, 15 September 2017 - 08:22 AM.

[normalizing]

that is in wheat germ powder. i wonder if processing it into oil loses some spermidine or maybe adds more?

[Darryl]

Aconita, if gluten was so bad for us, whole grains would have far worse effects in non-Celiacs.

Aune et al, 2016. Whole grain consumption and risk of cardiovascular disease, cancer, and all cause and cause specific mortality: systematic review and dose-response meta-analysis of prospective studies. bmj, 353, p.i2716.

 

I would expect little spermidine in wheat germ oil. The octanol/water partition coefficient (est -0.7) indicates about 80% would be found in the residue after wheat germ oil extraction.

 

 

[normalizing]

im going for the octanol amount now that i read good articles on it. i suppose try the wheat germ oil residue, but not wheat germ oil or wheat germ powder. if thats even ever available...

[Anthony_Loera]

But I like wheat germ....

have since 2016

 

https://plus.google....sts/BeKZ5YwRjsj

 

The bad part is that I need to get it wholesale now...

 

[Daniel Cooper]

Hey Anthony, maybe Spermidine would be a product that RevGenetics would be interested in sourcing?  Sees like it would be right up their alley.  

 

The benefits of this compound seem impressive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 20 September 2017 - 02:37 PM.

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi Daniel,

 

There are a few issues with this (but I love the idea), one of which is a good source and another... the smell. I think we will need to mask the smell to have this be acceptable for most folks. I will be traveling next week to see if I can find some raw materials.. and will ask about spermidine as well. If we do find a source, the next step will be to do something with it to limit or mask the smell.

 

A