95 replies to this topic

[YOLF]

I'd like to have this thread pinned.

Ok, so you've seen C60 and all of the wonderful things that it can do for you and can't wait to buy your first "for research purposes only" bottle and get started. You're a risk taker and it looks safe enough for you.

Why not wait until you're cleared to take it and provide the rest of us with some good and pertinent data? Most insurers allow what is called elective care and give you a small budget for this each year of around $500-1000. What I'm suggesting is that people get on a waiting list to start taking it and provide test data by using their elective care budget on testing to measure whatever bio markers are deemed pertinent by a LongeCity member who would like to head this up.

Basically this would involve learning something about your insurance (I didn't know mine provided for this stuff back when I had it, so you might not know either), and using what you have to track the effects of C60 on your health. This way we can discover any potentially harmful effects of C60 early. It would be a lot better than just taking it blindly and going by how you feel.

Rather than have a control group, I'd suggest figuring out what data is available on the general population of the individual who will be participating and choose applicable metrics for before and after(ongoing) tests. This way no one has to be a placebo guinea pig.

This may pave the way for more interest in studying C60 IMO.

[Brainbox]

Good initiative IMO. Pinned.

[Turnbuckle]

Why not wait until you're cleared to take it and provide the rest of us with some good and pertinent data? Most insurers allow what is called elective care and give you a small budget for this each year of around $500-1000. What I'm suggesting is that people get on a waiting list to start taking it and provide test data by using their elective care budget on testing to measure whatever bio markers are deemed pertinent by a LongeCity member who would like to head this up.

Have you ever done this? And if so, how much was covered?

Most policies don't cover elective care, I thought, and if some do, they're certainly not going to cover some speculative treatment like C60.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 05 May 2013 - 07:39 PM.

[Hebbeh]

AFAIK the elective care is the standard annual physical and preventative care that many here already do. I really doubt standard annual blood tests and physical health parameters are going to tell us much as that has already been done by a number of participants. Although it is always a good idea to track your health markers and seek early treatment for any issues that may develop.

[niner]

I agree with Hebbeh. I don't think that people are going to see changes in conventional health markers. If people are interested in looking at redox-related markers, that would be great, but I don't think you'll be able to get those covered by insurance, and your doctor probably wouldn't know where to find them anyway. I can't really see very many people waiting to be cleared by someone here. Most people are anxious to try it as soon as they get it.

[YOLF]

I agree with Hebbeh. I don't think that people are going to see changes in conventional health markers. If people are interested in looking at redox-related markers, that would be great, but I don't think you'll be able to get those covered by insurance, and your doctor probably wouldn't know where to find them anyway. I can't really see very many people waiting to be cleared by someone here. Most people are anxious to try it as soon as they get it.

There may be a few. Do you know where one could get redox tests done? What would it cost? I'm sure labcore can take the blood and mail it to the appropriate lab if necessary. Life extension has blood tests and doctors that can go over it with you over the phone. It wouldn't be a bad idea to coach people into saving money so they can help out. The cost of C60 is roughly $400/year if you but from Vaughter Wellness on a monthly basis.

If we can make a list of labs that do redox and whatever other tests would be pertinent we may just be able to get people on board. To persuade them we'll need to put in some effort and explain to them that they will actually know how well their $400/year is being spent when we get them results. Maybe the first set of tests we run don't show anything, so the next participant we try another set until we find an anomaly and get the rest of the group on those tests.

Not only will the testing volunteers benefit from knowing how well their money is being spent, but maybe we discover a mechanism that benefits the next generation of supplements and gives them a new "Cocoa Puff" to go coocoo for! When do you want the next advance in longevity medicine? Sooner or later? Volunteering for the testing and getting it done right gets us there sooner! It get's us the info we need to help determine the most efficient and beneficial doses. Not getting the testing done is a road block if it can be done and we could have volunteers for it. Let's motivate people to pull out all of the stops and take action that will bring them more longevity/eternal youth candy! We should be taking this stuff as serious as a heart attack! For some of us, it could mean the difference between making it to aging escape velocity and not making it aging escape velocity! Do you want to make it or not. People should be just as anxious to get the tests done and do it right as they are to get the C60 and take it! Why wouldn't they want to do this with their life potentially being on the line. We don't know how many years C60 will add, but we do know it's something and if we can figure it out instead of speculating endlessly, we may be able to turn it into something. The more we contribute to things like this, for those who can afford it or have decent insurance companies, the better our supplements and "research materials" are.

We have the opportunity to do something even drug companies can't do! Test humans fast, cuz humans are already on it. If we get enough volunteers to take up the banner of longevity, our progress will occur at a much faster rate! Pharma's drug candidates don't see humans for years, here we had human trials beginning just days or weeks after the first rat data was released! How cool is that, how much could we benefit from it? How much faster could we be working?

Niner, can I count on you to post some resources for getting redox tests? Can a moderator edit it into the first post so we can start giving people instructions? If you order from Vaughter it takes a couple of weeks to get the C60, that's time in which a volunteer could be getting tested. Maybe we can get the suppliers to include a request letter from us with the C60 package that will include places to get their tests for the best price and guidelines for getting their insurance information. We could also ask the C60 suppliers to include the letter with the order confirmation email that buyers should receive anyways. Let's not let a golden opportunity slip through our fingers. In fact I've already begun drafting a letter to Sarah and Tom.

[YOLF]

AFAIK the elective care is the standard annual physical and preventative care that many here already do. I really doubt standard annual blood tests and physical health parameters are going to tell us much as that has already been done by a number of participants. Although it is always a good idea to track your health markers and seek early treatment for any issues that may develop.

IIRC, mine specifically covered annual visits and tests stemming from that as preventative medicine and then I had the elective care stuff. Can you post or link to your policy?

[niner]

CC, check out this thread, where we discussed testing. The good stuff is expensive.

[YOLF]

CC, check out this thread, where we discussed testing. The good stuff is expensive.

I just started a new sales job and I sell a product that is expensive, but it's very effective at what it does and people usually spend more on things that make up for what it does. Just let me know what the test is and what it tells you and how it can be good for your health. If I took my product to most people who didn't know what it was and told them the price and said, "do you want to buy one?" it wouldn't sell. I have to explain what it does, how it improves your life, and what you're already buying doesn't do. Then everyone wants one and it comes down to whether or not they want to make the commitment for it. There are cost savings and additional benefits to spending smart. Having an expensive price tag doesn't mean it's expensive, if it's worth it, it saves you money elsewhere. This is someone's body we're talking about. If people will spend $490 on a domestic case of C60 that will last 10 months, or $590 buying it month to month (plus shipping), they may just spend the money on the test. What it comes down to is finding the best and most cost efficient way for our volunteer to spend their money on their health and help others at the same time.

From what I understand so far, this is what we have:

* Provides baseline test results for tests that could be beneficial to have depending on your health in the future. The tests can also identify the existence of diseases that would otherwise go undetected until you had symptoms.

* Helps us to understand how C60 extends lifespan and improves health.

* Helps us identify mechanisms that could be exploited to improve longevity and prohealth supplements which in turn will make more supplements available which do the same things or support those benefits to achieve even better results.


These are all things worth spending money on if you want to live forever, have the curiosity or inclination to know that it's doing something for you (how long are you going to take this supplement at $490/year before someone does a test and determines it doesn't do something vital in humans as opposed to rodents?), and you have the money to do so. This is the kind of thing people have been waiting on the sidelines for. How many people bought something else they thought was good for them and it turned out to be a scam or just didn't do what they thought it did? Would you want to make that mistake twice or would you want to invest in tests with reputable testing companies and know you are achieving results or even be able to come forward and say "it doesn't work for humans or creates a potential side effect."

What does it take for a good samaritan to be a good samaratan? Intention to help and capacity to help. Some want to and some can, and sometimes they are the same person

Personally, I've been mulling around the idea of investing in a few dozen mice. I wouldn't keep mice as pets normally, but if I had them for the benefit of life extension, it would be worth it to me and that's money AND time. It only came down to wanting to know how C60 effects reproduction and finding out that breeding mice isn't easy and that males smell bad.

[YOLF]

Great News Guys and Gals!

Tom from carbon60oliveoil.com would love to help us out!

"Hi. Yes! I would love to participate. I could send along a paper of yours or write one asking people to join your discussion. Whatever you want to do, I'm up for it.

Tom"

[SarahVaughter]

We're currently sponsoring extensive human trials. We donated 200 bottles for this purpose, so far. Preliminary results are highly encouraging.

Quite a few people are participating. Some have cancer or HIV, others are top athletes.

Nearly all are people who are used to objectively measure their sport-related performance.

The exciting aspect is that many participants will be non-anonymous when we'll publish their results. It will take a while to get the results translated and published. We are not directing the experiment, it is done in a European country, organised by someone with a degree in sports physiology.

Still, we think that the only people who will see immediate, strong results are people who are pushing themselves to the limit already. Couch potatoes never reach their limits and will never notice that their limits have moved upwards. They will only see long-term effects such as (perhaps) the absence of tumors, a longer life and improved brain function. The only people that might notice immediate effects are sportspeople, weightlifters etc.

I want to again stress that in our opinion, C60 in olive oil will not be of benefit to anyone with a disease. So please do not spend your money on this product as some kind of last hope against whatever severe illness you may have - it will very most likely be in vain. C60 is a product that brings an extremely effective antioxidant into the cell walls and mitochondria. It is not a "drug" that cures disease - it is a product of which tests have shown that it makes mammals live longer and protects them against certain degenerative diseases, illnesses and syndromes. The brains of old mice became rejuvenated. But there is no evidence whatsoever that it can cure any type of illness - only prevent.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 09 May 2013 - 04:36 PM.

[MacD]

Some things i am curious about c60oo -

1) How can we ensure c60 is evenly distributed to every cell in an organism? I am rather skeptical that this happens merely through oral intake.
2) If c60 is not evenly distributed to all cells, what are the effects (to a single organism) of some cells benefitting and others not?

Edited by MacD, 09 May 2013 - 06:36 PM.

[SarahVaughter]

Every cell of your body is supplied with Oxygen and nutrients through a very fine network of cappilary veins, as well as "Osmosis" (I am not an expert on the subject). So just as water and oxygen reach literally every cell in your body or it would die nearly immediately, so will also the Lipofullerene C60 reach every cell in your body. The only place where the C60 lipofullerenes will remain however is in cell constituents where lipids can reside, such as the cell walls.

New cell wall material consists of lipids (the lipid bilayer) and new lipids reach the cells to build new cell wall. So just like cell wall lipids reach all cells, the C60 will reach all cells.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 09 May 2013 - 07:11 PM.

[MacD]

I guess that was quite a basic question to ask (Im not a scientist), thanks for replying Sarah.

[SarahVaughter]

As to CNS penetration of lipofullerene C60:

In order to penetrate the blood-brain barrier, a molecule has to be < 450 Daltons and be lipid-soluble.

The carbon atom has 6 nucleons, so C60 has 60 x 6 = 360 nucleons. Even with a few lipid chains attached, we remain around 450 Daltons and lipofullerene C60 is lipid-soluble.

So the product will reach the brain and spinal cord. This is actually quite rare and most fortunate, regarding the fact that we desire the C60 to be in the cell walls and mitochondria of the various cells in the brain - most bioactive chemical substances, medicines etc. do not reach the brain parenchyma.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 09 May 2013 - 07:22 PM.

[YOLF]

Sarah,

Can you send letters with your US shipments or shipments to countries outside of the coutry where you are testing? Are you running any tests in particular? Ideally, we would measure a different set of data to provide more diverse information.

[YOLF]

C60 really isn't distributed evenly, it concentrates in the spleen and liver, and this may be how it extends life spans. Even before we die of some aging related disease, our liver and immune system (a resident of the spleen) begin to become less effective and more strained. So it's probably good that it concentrates where it does and lowers the load of toxicity on the rest of the body using our existing mechanisms.

[SarahVaughter]

There is no complete data yet on where the C60 concentrates. The fact that it was found in liver and spleen does not prove that it does not accumulate in the lipid bilayers, because they did not look at cellular accumulation of the C60, AFAIK.

Neither did they measure very exactly how much "went out". C60 acts as a semi-eternal universal antioxidant (it is not destroyed by either accepting or donating electrons and it serves as a reservoir for multiple electrons) so even very small amounts in the cells may make a big difference.

As to including a leaflet with our shipments: There is no better way to attract the negative attention of customs officers than saying: "Hey, lookie here, this is a totally untested 'miracle supplement', let's do some ad-hoc human trials". If you really want to get this substance banned ASAP, then that would be a good way to attract the attention of higher-level officials. The law on supplements varies around the world. In Norway, it is a criminal offense (3 month prison max.) to import significant qty of vit. C. for example. We don't want to end up in GTMO.

Sorry but human tests with 30 to 50 people are already being done with our cooperation. Everyone is free to maintain a diary with their results, such as how many reps they can do extra, how many km they can run further, how much less their recovery time is after a certain exercise etc.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 09 May 2013 - 07:38 PM.

[SarahVaughter]

This is a link to a well-known, respected Dutch sports trainer giving a lecture on TA65, C60 and Resveratrol, organizing a human C60 trial of 30 to 50 subjects:

[SarahVaughter]

I want to stress again that I do not believe that "ordinary people" (the average couch potato without intellectually demanding job) will see any benefit at all, short-term.

All that these people may "notice" is that they will live longer, in better health. But they won't even know whether that is due to the C60 or not.

Lipofullerene C60 is something that should not yield any "miracle effects" in the average person, apart from the fact that living longer and not getting cancer is kind-of a miracle all by itself.

If you do not push yourself to your limits, how would you ever notice that your cells and mitochondria contain a super-antioxidant? Not likely. Then again, if you are an athlete, you will likely recover faster, suffer less oxidative stress etc.

To all those people hoping for a cure of their disease or effects such as increased hairgrowth etc. I say: Not likely. At all. I think that both beneficial effects and negative effects reported by "Joe Sixpack" are Placebo effects or mere coincidences. We've seen so many "C60 side effects" reported already. Someone literally claimed "severe brain damage and pissing blood", others reported all kinds of beneficial effects that are similarly non-credible.

To avoid disappointment, expect absolutely nothing, except most likely a cancer-preventative (not curative!) effect, an immune-stimulating effect and a longevity/anti-aging effect as well as a neurorestorative effect. Because those effects have been measured in small mammals. All those things are nearly impossible to measure or "feel".

Edited by SarahVaughter, 09 May 2013 - 07:54 PM.

[MacD]

For what it's worth, i can say as an end user of various supplements, that i do not think c60 would sell in masses if described as a product that can help you run further or perform more reps.

In my own thread, i mentioned that i have used ephidrene on multiple occassions and this is extremly noticable, almost immediately, as a performance enhancer, whereas i personally feel that c60 is not.

If i had to make a choice as a consumer, purely based on sporting performance, the decision is a no brainer, ephidrene would win every time.


I know this isnt really the place to discuss business models (and i dont have any interest in selling c60 myself), but i thought i state my opinion on that situation anyway.

[YOLF]

I was hoping to get some blood test data from this initiative to see how it causes the gains. I'm definitely still interested in getting blood tests done domestically on volunteers who are willing to participate. I've seen some promising hair regrow results. Obviously you can't bring cells back that aren't there anymore, but recently lost hair seems to come back in a handful of instances.

[YOLF]

For what it's worth, i can say as an end user of various supplements, that i do not think c60 would sell in masses if described as a product that can help you run further or perform more reps.

In my own thread, i mentioned that i have used ephidrene on multiple occassions and this is extremly noticable, almost immediately, as a performance enhancer, whereas i personally feel that c60 is not.

If i had to make a choice as a consumer, purely based on sporting performance, the decision is a no brainer, ephidrene would win every time.


I know this isnt really the place to discuss business models (and i dont have any interest in selling c60 myself), but i thought i state my opinion on that situation anyway.

While I think you're right about the US market, it may be different in European markets. I wouldn't expect SV to sell as many bottles selling it only as a sporting supplement. When you sell it as being restorative, it will sell like Resveratol. Personally, I choose something other than ephedrine. It has a toxic feeling of high energy... People only use the stuff because there isn't a better supplement or because they believe their have to be negative side effects roughly equal to or greater than the benefit. It's the no pain, no gain mentality among people using the energy inducers.

[niner]

We're currently sponsoring extensive human trials. We donated 200 bottles for this purpose, so far. Preliminary results are highly encouraging.

Quite a few people are participating. Some have cancer or HIV, others are top athletes.

Nearly all are people who are used to objectively measure their sport-related performance.

The exciting aspect is that many participants will be non-anonymous when we'll publish their results. It will take a while to get the results translated and published. We are not directing the experiment, it is done in a European country, organised by someone with a degree in sports physiology.

Still, we think that the only people who will see immediate, strong results are people who are pushing themselves to the limit already. Couch potatoes never reach their limits and will never notice that their limits have moved upwards. They will only see long-term effects such as (perhaps) the absence of tumors, a longer life and improved brain function. The only people that might notice immediate effects are sportspeople, weightlifters etc.

I want to again stress that in our opinion, C60 in olive oil will not be of benefit to anyone with a disease. So please do not spend your money on this product as some kind of last hope against whatever severe illness you may have - it will very most likely be in vain. C60 is a product that brings an extremely effective antioxidant into the cell walls and mitochondria. It is not a "drug" that cures disease - it is a product of which tests have shown that it makes mammals live longer and protects them against certain degenerative diseases, illnesses and syndromes. The brains of old mice became rejuvenated. But there is no evidence whatsoever that it can cure any type of illness - only prevent.

Thank you for your sponsorship of these trials, Sarah; that is very exciting news! I agree with you about the couch potatoes. Young, relatively healthy non-athletes are unlikely to "feel" anything from c60-oo. I also agree that c60 is not a universal cure-all for any and all diseases. I think that it may even be ill-advised for people with cancer, as cancer cells are oxidatively challenged and a potent antioxidant may be helpful to them. However, I'd also point out that there are disease states that c60-oo is very beneficial for. Situations characterized by hypoxia or by certain forms of chronic inflammation may well be helped. For example, I found symptoms of postural hypotension (which results in momentary hypoxia) to be substantially improved. We've also seen reports of surprising improvements in a case of COPD and a case of severe asthma, which both have major hypoxic components. I would expect it to be helpful for angina and cardiac insufficiency. In the chronic inflammation area, I had eczema on my hands for a decade, which I could keep under control with topical steroids and moisturizers but could never shake. After a few months on c60, it has finally gone away. Other users have reported resolution of leucoplakic lesions on their skin. These have an inflammatory component, and are steroid responsive. None of what I've mentioned are "cures" in the sense that a bacterial infection is cured by a course of antibiotics. The are reductions or elimination of symptoms, which is not only very welcome, but in some of these cases simply cannot be achieved any other way, short of an oxygen tank.

[MacD]

If the equipment was supplied to me, i would be more than happy to record, photograph and publish blood tests Cryo.

I'm already measuring and recording my glucose and blood pressure levels and as long as it doesnt involve me walking around my workplace with needles sticking out of every orifice you could count me in

As you may be aware, i have already started dosing though, i might imagine you would want a fresh trial for these kind of tests to hold relevant meaning?

Edited by MacD, 09 May 2013 - 08:05 PM.

[SarahVaughter]

Our business model is quite unique on the Internet: We actually prefer telling the truth over making the most money possible.

Our idea was that if you cater to intelligent people only basically (by having big walls of text about science..) and you remain totally honest, that you'll always have some customers.

We don't care that C60 will always remain a niche supplement. As far as I am concerned, it is the most exciting supplement by far, since it yields the greatest lifespan increase in mammals.

But for a price of a dollar a day for a period of 15 years, considering the possible (and in my view probable) benefit of an extra 15 years in good health, a liver-protective effect, a neurorestorative effect, a libido-increasing effect, a tumor-preventative effect, someone who can afford it would be basically "suicidal" not to use it, seem the animal data available. It's not just the rat LD50 study, it's other studies as well.

Wouldn't you like to have 15 years of extra life in good health, for a dollar a day? That's what you could realistically expect, extrapolated from the rat data. I think this is a good deal. No short-term miracles required for millions of "rich" people to consider this supplement. However, the great majority of people is bad at planning ahead. People tend to prefer short-term gains. But not everyone :-)

Edited by SarahVaughter, 09 May 2013 - 08:12 PM.

[niner]

Wouldn't you like to have 15 years of extra life in good health, for a dollar a day? That's what you could realistically expect, extrapolated from the rat data.

I don't think we can extrapolate human lifespan increases from rat data. It's relatively easy to increase the lifespan of a rat, while human lifespans are not as plastic. I think it's reasonable to expect some squaring of the mortality curve for humans, and probably even some movement at the far end of the curve, but this isn't something that I'd be making promises about.

[SarahVaughter]

To arrive at the extra expected lifespan of humans, a very cautious estimate in my opinion is to divide the extra observed lifespan percentage of rats by (average lifespan of humans / average lifespan of wistar rats):

Very roughly, to get a ballpark figure: 90% / (70 / 3) is about 4% extra lifespan for humans. That's still about three extra years - in good health all the way up to death, if we take the rat study as a guideline. Good health by itself would be a valuable side effect to the extra longevity.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 09 May 2013 - 08:27 PM.

[MacD]

To arrive at the extra expected lifespan of humans, a very cautious estimate in my opinion is to divide the extra observed lifespan percentage of rats by (average lifespan of humans / average lifespan of wistar rats):

Very roughly, to get a ballpark figure: 90% / (70 / 3) is about 4% extra lifespan for humans. That's still about three extra years - in good health all the way up to death, if we take the rat study as a guideline. Good health by itself would be a valuable side effect to the extra longevity.

This, of course, is based on the assumption that relative measurements are the correct way to go about this.

Is there any reason to rule out absolute measurments?


For example, if cells were manipulated in such a way to have a positive effect of, lets say 10 years in one organism, what is the reason to rule out the possibility that the positive effects would have a 10 year flat rate effect in all organisms?

[SarahVaughter]

I think it is very much more likely (based on my limited knowledge of biochemistry) that these effects are "extra percents". And extra percents in a human will have a multiplication factor, relative to rats. So we're still talking about relative values, percentages of percentages. Individual cells generally don't live long. So we're talking about extra lifetime of cells, less degradation of cells, more divisions of cells etc. All relative, all percentages, no absolutes.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 09 May 2013 - 09:51 PM.