95 replies to this topic

[MacD]

I think it is very much more likely (based on my knowledge of biochemistry) that these effects are "extra percents". And extra percents in a human will have a multiplication factor, relative to rats. So we're still talking about relative values, percentages of percentages. Individual cells generally don't live long. So we're talking about extra lifetime of cells, less degradation of cells, more divisions of cells etc. All relative, all percentages, no absolutes.

As a non-scientist i want to say i fully respect your knowledge, but i work in an industry where i see basic assumptions made all the time that lead to negtive outcomes.

Im not questioning your knowledge in any way at all, but i am one to question assumptions, no matter how obvious they seem.


In theory (and once again forgive my lack of scientific knowledge), is it not possible to have an effect on a cell that would make it become "immortal", but without it being cancerous? If this effect had no negative outcomes to an organism and would remain in a healthy state for an undetermined period of time, and actually affected all cells in every organism, then this could be described as an absolute measurement across all organisms.

Now lets scale this down and say this effect only lasted 10 years (due to a set period of time before the positive effect becomes "depleted"). That too would be an absolute measurement.


I have read that c60 has powerful protection properties to organsims that are affected by gamma irradiation. Lets make an assumption and say that humans are protected 90%. It seems unwise to say that rats are only protected by 10% because they are smaller in size than humans.


It may seem obvious to you as a biochemist, but if i were studying the effects of c60, i would certainly be looking at this and trying to find out if c60 effects on cell longetivity were relative to cell life expectancy, or whether in fact it halted or slowed down an ageing process in all cells across all organisms at a similar rate (and then those effects depleted after a set period of time), thus leading to absolute positive measurements rather than relative ones.

Edited by MacD, 09 May 2013 - 10:01 PM.

[SarahVaughter]

I am not a biochemist :-)

The proof will be in the pudding. When people start taking Lipofullerene C60 and stick to it, 100 years from now we'll know the outcome.
Rats only needed 24 doses to live 90% longer, it's unknown how many doses, with what interval and what dose are optimal for humans, and what the benefit will be.
It's all guesswork at this point.

My educated guess is based on what C60 is - a very powerful antioxidant. Unique in that it does not degrade when it does its work, unique that it can donate as well as accept multiple electrons and that it likely resides for weeks in the lipid bilayers.

Longevity gains caused by antioxidant action are not absolute (they do not confer immortality to cells etc.) but relative. Human cells have better ways to deal with free radical damage than rat cells, hence it would stand to reason that the percentual gain in rats will be diminished in humans. I estimate that factor to be similar to the difference in longevity between humans and rats, since that factor is - amongst others - a measure of how more effective human cells are protected against free radical damage.

[VP.]

I am an avid recreational cyclist who loves to push myself to the limit and beyond. I have to say in the 50 days I have been using C60 I have seen some interesting results. I don't think I would have noticed anything if I had not pushed myself to the limit. Thanks for supporting human testing Sarah but I would still like to see a rat treadmill test with C60. 1000 anecdotes is not scientific data. Any translation available for Boris's video? I understand a little Dutch but most of what he is saying is lost on me.

[sthira]

But for a price of a dollar a day for a period of 15 years, considering the possible (and in my view probable) benefit of an extra 15 years in good health, a liver-protective effect, a neurorestorative effect, a libido-increasing effect, a tumor-preventative effect, someone who can afford it would be basically "suicidal" not to use it, seem the animal data available. It's not just the rat LD50 study, it's other studies as well.

That's very interesting. Do you think people who know about the existence of your product but chose not to take it actually want to [i]die[i/]?

Die?

[YOLF]

If the equipment was supplied to me, i would be more than happy to record, photograph and publish blood tests Cryo.

I'm already measuring and recording my glucose and blood pressure levels and as long as it doesnt involve me walking around my workplace with needles sticking out of every orifice you could count me in

As you may be aware, i have already started dosing though, i might imagine you would want a fresh trial for these kind of tests to hold relevant meaning?

Maybe you can post your blood test history here and we'll ask niner if any tests might be beneficial using your data as a starting point?

[niner]

I am an avid recreational cyclist who loves to push myself to the limit and beyond. I have to say in the 50 days I have been using C60 I have seen some interesting results. I don't think I would have noticed anything if I had not pushed myself to the limit. Thanks for supporting human testing Sarah but I would still like to see a rat treadmill test with C60. 1000 anecdotes is not scientific data.

If those humans are instrumented appropriately and placebo controlled, then I'd rather have human data than rat data. It sounds to me like there are professionals involved in the tests that Sarah is supporting, so it's not going to be anecdotal. What sorts of things did you notice? I've noticed a significant jump in the number of watts I can produce on a stationary bike at a given heart rate.

[YOLF]

I am not a biochemist :-)

The proof will be in the pudding. When people start taking Lipofullerene C60 and stick to it, 100 years from now we'll know the outcome.
Rats only needed 24 doses to live 90% longer, it's unknown how many doses, with what interval and what dose are optimal for humans, and what the benefit will be.
It's all guesswork at this point.

My educated guess is based on what C60 is - a very powerful antioxidant. Unique in that it does not degrade when it does its work, unique that it can donate as well as accept multiple electrons and that it likely resides for weeks in the lipid bilayers.

Longevity gains caused by antioxidant action are not absolute (they do not confer immortality to cells etc.) but relative. Human cells have better ways to deal with free radical damage than rat cells, hence it would stand to reason that the percentual gain in rats will be diminished in humans. I estimate that factor to be similar to the difference in longevity between humans and rats, since that factor is - amongst others - a measure of how more effective human cells are protected against free radical damage.

This is true, but I'm dancing with the idea that something like C60 could improve a range of things and possiby cause enough improvement to net us hundreds of years if taken early enough and regularly. Whatever it's doing must be very important. It's a pitty they didn't preserve the rats for further testing, this anomoly could provide us with alot more data and alot more leads to extending lifespans.

I am an avid recreational cyclist who loves to push myself to the limit and beyond. I have to say in the 50 days I have been using C60 I have seen some interesting results. I don't think I would have noticed anything if I had not pushed myself to the limit. Thanks for supporting human testing Sarah but I would still like to see a rat treadmill test with C60. 1000 anecdotes is not scientific data.

If those humans are instrumented appropriately and placebo controlled, then I'd rather have human data than rat data. It sounds to me like there are professionals involved in the tests that Sarah is supporting, so it's not going to be anecdotal. What sorts of things did you notice? I've noticed a significant jump in the number of watts I can produce on a stationary bike at a given heart rate.

Can you give an average difference in watts? Maybe a projection?

[VP.]

I am an avid recreational cyclist who loves to push myself to the limit and beyond. I have to say in the 50 days I have been using C60 I have seen some interesting results. I don't think I would have noticed anything if I had not pushed myself to the limit. Thanks for supporting human testing Sarah but I would still like to see a rat treadmill test with C60. 1000 anecdotes is not scientific data.

If those humans are instrumented appropriately and placebo controlled, then I'd rather have human data than rat data. It sounds to me like there are professionals involved in the tests that Sarah is supporting, so it's not going to be anecdotal. What sorts of things did you notice? I've noticed a significant jump in the number of watts I can produce on a stationary bike at a given heart rate.

It's still early and I'm gathering data. I came off a 2 year period where I did not cycle much because of lower back problems and time issues. I starting riding regularly again a couple weeks before I started C60 and am now seeing watt numbers about equal to what I was getting in 2007 at my peak. Very unusual to get condition back that quickly to say the least. If I can significantly exceed my best power numbers in the next few months then I will be a true believer. I went through the resveratrol placebo craze and if I can beat those watt numbers by a good margin I will be convinced it's not just a placebo or at least a better placebo. Unfortunately confounding factors are that I started intermittent fasting in January and also started doing HIIT (high intensity interval training) at the same time (on stair climber and stationary bike). I may never know what was the larger contributor to my strength recovery.

[niner]

This is true, but I'm dancing with the idea that something like C60 could improve a range of things and possiby cause enough improvement to net us hundreds of years if taken early enough and regularly.

No, it won't work that way in humans. We have evolved very long lifespans, probably because or our large brains, tool use, and social organization, which cause us to be less victimized by predation. When we put super antioxidants in rats, we are making them a bit more like us, by giving them the improved antioxidant defenses that we already possess, at least to a degree. C60 is clearly improving our antioxidant defenses, so it's not crazy to think that it will at least provide some curve squaring, if not a moderate enhancement in max lifespan, but it won't be hundreds of years. There are too many other causes of aging. For example, if you make it to 110 today, it's a near certainty that you will have systemic amyloidosis, and will probably be killed by it within a few years. The hope would be that c60 and other interventions will make it more likely that you will reach 110 someday, and that by then there will be good amyloidosis therapy, along with everything else on the SENS list.

I've noticed a significant jump in the number of watts I can produce on a stationary bike at a given heart rate.

Can you give an average difference in watts? Maybe a projection?

After about 6 weeks on c60, I went from 110-120 watts to more like 135 at the same perceived exertion level. So a 12 to 22% increase. My cardiovascular workout had been very stable for a long time, so I don't think there was a training effect. I've subsequently switched to a HIIT protocol, and I've certainly seen a training effect there.

[YOLF]

I am an avid recreational cyclist who loves to push myself to the limit and beyond. I have to say in the 50 days I have been using C60 I have seen some interesting results. I don't think I would have noticed anything if I had not pushed myself to the limit. Thanks for supporting human testing Sarah but I would still like to see a rat treadmill test with C60. 1000 anecdotes is not scientific data.

If those humans are instrumented appropriately and placebo controlled, then I'd rather have human data than rat data. It sounds to me like there are professionals involved in the tests that Sarah is supporting, so it's not going to be anecdotal. What sorts of things did you notice? I've noticed a significant jump in the number of watts I can produce on a stationary bike at a given heart rate.

It's still early and I'm gathering data. I came off a 2 year period where I did not cycle much because of lower back problems and time issues. I starting riding regularly again a couple weeks before I started C60 and am now seeing watt numbers about equal to what I was getting in 2007 at my peak. Very unusual to get condition back that quickly to say the least. If I can significantly exceed my best power numbers in the next few months then I will be a true believer. I went through the resveratrol placebo craze and if I can beat those watt numbers by a good margin I will be convinced it's not just a placebo or at least a better placebo. Unfortunately confounding factors are that I started intermittent fasting in January and also started doing HIIT (high intensity interval training) at the same time (on stair climber and stationary bike). I may never know what was the larger contributor to my strength recovery.

How much do we know about HMB? Generous doses of that seem to do similar. Do we know how it works?

[YOLF]

This is true, but I'm dancing with the idea that something like C60 could improve a range of things and possiby cause enough improvement to net us hundreds of years if taken early enough and regularly.

No, it won't work that way in humans. We have evolved very long lifespans, probably because or our large brains, tool use, and social organization, which cause us to be less victimized by predation. When we put super antioxidants in rats, we are making them a bit more like us, by giving them the improved antioxidant defenses that we already possess, at least to a degree. C60 is clearly improving our antioxidant defenses, so it's not crazy to think that it will at least provide some curve squaring, if not a moderate enhancement in max lifespan, but it won't be hundreds of years. There are too many other causes of aging. For example, if you make it to 110 today, it's a near certainty that you will have systemic amyloidosis, and will probably be killed by it within a few years. The hope would be that c60 and other interventions will make it more likely that you will reach 110 someday, and that by then there will be good amyloidosis therapy, along with everything else on the SENS list.

I've noticed a significant jump in the number of watts I can produce on a stationary bike at a given heart rate.

Can you give an average difference in watts? Maybe a projection?

After about 6 weeks on c60, I went from 110-120 watts to more like 135 at the same perceived exertion level. So a 12 to 22% increase. My cardiovascular workout had been very stable for a long time, so I don't think there was a training effect. I've subsequently switched to a HIIT protocol, and I've certainly seen a training effect there.

Our declines are slow and systemic. Improving the capacity of the liver to handle toxicity may radically slow the systemic decline that leads to one organ failure or another IMO. I'm not gambling on it or anything, that's just my maximum benefit guess and I'm pretty conservative. One of the SENS initiatives is also to kill off senescent cells. It could be that C60 keep more cells from reaching senescence by improving the system's capacity to clear junk and toxins and this is helping cells recover more readily.

If you think about it, 80% of the damage from radiation comes from the ROS cascade that occurs as a result of the radiation. So the cascades that occur from damage are more damaging than the initial damage itself in most nonlethal instances. So for these non lethal instances, and even some lethal instances, which are occuring frequently in our lifetimes, C60 is there to soak up the junk and toxins and free up a cell's efforts for determining whether repair or cell death is called for. I'm imagining that some junk or another must be present to keep cancer cells from going into senescence. I define junk as anything that prohibits cells or an organism from functioning optimally or well enough that the organism won't die from aging.

[SarahVaughter]

I have read somewhere that a single high-energetic alpha particle can knock > 10000 electrons out of orbit in its path, so indeed, internal alpha emitters do their damage by creating a large amount of free radicals. C60 would neutralize whatever molecule with electron(s) too few or too many. It would even "catch" the electrons themselves. Provided there are sufficient C60 molecules where they're needed.

Beta particles are electrons and they also, when high-energetic, should be able to be neutralized by the C60 molecule, which acts as a "stopper". If I understand the quantum physics correctly.

So C60 would give some protection against both alpha and beta radiation. And those are by far the most dangerous, by far the biggest cause of cancer, when talking about radiation-induced cancer and perhaps cancer in general. Gamma and neutrons are a very distant second, when it comes to ionizing radiation. Internal emitters, esp. alpha emitters, probably cause a lot more cancer than we think. I base this on a lot of literature study I did and my knowledge of the work of Christopher Busby. Internal emitters are in our food because we fertilize the plants with radioactive fertilizer, mined in places where there is natural Uranium:

http://owndoc.com/ca...es-lung-cancer/

(What is valid for tobacco is also valid for a lot of food produced..)

Edited by SarahVaughter, 10 May 2013 - 09:34 AM.

[SarahVaughter]

About the "solidness" of the Dutch human C60 trial: As far as I understand, it will just be lots of people freely reporting whatever it is they (think) they perceive..
It's not a controlled study with standardized questions in any way.

I'm fine with that because I do not believe there will be any short-term effects except increased stamina and strength and reduced recovery time for people who do serious sports. And those can be reported in a free format.
The same with whatever other effects. A multiple-choice format is not very useful for something that may have any possible effect. It basically comes down to: "Please tell us something about yourself, how much C60 you take and what you have noticed after you started taking it".

But the interesting thing about this "study" is that the C60 product is given to people who had no prior interest in the product so they are not biased by high hopes and expectations. They are simply asked to take it and report on what happens afterwards. Many will naturally be sceptical.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 10 May 2013 - 09:30 AM.

[Andre69]

Hi,as a new member of this forum I would like to add my experience with C60 until now.
About me: am 22 years old of good health, male, fairly active (though at the time, as I have tests to study for, I did not involve my self in any physical activity to be able to compare the action of C60 on that aspect)
I have been taking C60 for a week.
What I have noticed is a sensation of light dizziness or cloudiness in my head. Also an increased heart rate not very badly though, and generally I had the sensation as if my body is trying to detoxify its self which feels similar to the response you get after alcohol consumption or cannabis. (but still different)
Also I had alot more dreams after C60 which either means it increases my REM sleep or inhibits me to go in to deep sleep. These together lead me to the assumption that C60 must be passing the blood brain barrier.
I had no possitive effects from C60 until now but I think it did change my metabolism (it increased it) maybe its because of the detoxifying response of the body to C60? I don't know but I can imagine how this could give you extra "energy".

If C60 does have a positive effect in the long run my current assumption according to my responses is that C60 triggers autophagy within the cell and therefore extending life span. Building upon this theory; C60 might bind to all the "junk" (radicals etc) and help the cell recognise it as such, again leading to autophagy/mitophagy...and dna repair?

If you have any other questions about the effects of C60 I'll be happy to answer. I consider continuing taking C60 until I see any slight negative effect or until my bottles run out.
The placebo effect might be stronger than one might think. Just take a look at a star hypnotist show!

[SarahVaughter]

There is no reason to assume that C60 will "detoxify" or bind to anything, really.

[Andre69]

Maybe not bind covalently but electrostaticaly..since it can act as an antioxidant?

[MacD]

Decreased heart rate for me.

Can definitely confirm a higher number of remembered and vivid dreams though.

I will be posting a set of results in my thread next week.

[niner]

Hi,as a new member of this forum I would like to add my experience with C60 until now.
About me: am 22 years old of good health, male, fairly active (though at the time, as I have tests to study for, I did not involve my self in any physical activity to be able to compare the action of C60 on that aspect)

In other words, you are the very definition of a person who will not "feel" anything from c60-oo.

The placebo effect might be stronger than one might think.

Yes.

[YOLF]

About the "solidness" of the Dutch human C60 trial: As far as I understand, it will just be lots of people freely reporting whatever it is they (think) they perceive..
It's not a controlled study with standardized questions in any way.

I'm fine with that because I do not believe there will be any short-term effects except increased stamina and strength and reduced recovery time for people who do serious sports. And those can be reported in a free format.
The same with whatever other effects. A multiple-choice format is not very useful for something that may have any possible effect. It basically comes down to: "Please tell us something about yourself, how much C60 you take and what you have noticed after you started taking it".

But the interesting thing about this "study" is that the C60 product is given to people who had no prior interest in the product so they are not biased by high hopes and expectations. They are simply asked to take it and report on what happens afterwards. Many will naturally be sceptical.

That's certainly a distinct benefit.

[YOLF]

Hi,as a new member of this forum I would like to add my experience with C60 until now.
About me: am 22 years old of good health, male, fairly active (though at the time, as I have tests to study for, I did not involve my self in any physical activity to be able to compare the action of C60 on that aspect)
I have been taking C60 for a week.
What I have noticed is a sensation of light dizziness or cloudiness in my head. Also an increased heart rate not very badly though, and generally I had the sensation as if my body is trying to detoxify its self which feels similar to the response you get after alcohol consumption or cannabis. (but still different)
Also I had alot more dreams after C60 which either means it increases my REM sleep or inhibits me to go in to deep sleep. These together lead me to the assumption that C60 must be passing the blood brain barrier.
I had no possitive effects from C60 until now but I think it did change my metabolism (it increased it) maybe its because of the detoxifying response of the body to C60? I don't know but I can imagine how this could give you extra "energy".

If C60 does have a positive effect in the long run my current assumption according to my responses is that C60 triggers autophagy within the cell and therefore extending life span. Building upon this theory; C60 might bind to all the "junk" (radicals etc) and help the cell recognise it as such, again leading to autophagy/mitophagy...and dna repair?

If you have any other questions about the effects of C60 I'll be happy to answer. I consider continuing taking C60 until I see any slight negative effect or until my bottles run out.
The placebo effect might be stronger than one might think. Just take a look at a star hypnotist show!

IIRC some nootropic users were having similar side effects at first, what else are you taking? There are threads specifically for discussing one's C60 experience, this one is for people who haven't taken it yet so we can get some hard data on it.

Oh and don't forget to post in the introductions forum.

Edited by cryonicsculture, 11 May 2013 - 02:19 AM.

[MacD]

Here is something that may be of interest.....


I have had a few pints of alcoholic beverage, and the c60 arrogance seems to have kicked into me.


I honestly am feeling like my intelligence levels have shot through the roof and i am above and beyond that of mere mortal !!


Has anyone else had this effect with c60 and alcohol? (i doubt i will feel like this again because i seldomly consume alcohol)

[AgeVivo]

At all, if you ever want to get slightly trustful things, take quanfied measures and pictures. Before, during, after experimenting anything. Announce things before you start them. Don't come and say hey I've trying this for x time. Look at the beginning of this thread: MacD is a good example to follow

[MacD]

I will be performing the same tests next week and publishing my results.


My alcohol is wearing off now, but my word that was a strange feeling. I thought it was interesting to say that while i was mildly intoxicated.


Im quite a sensible person, but it is slightly worrying to think of some football hooligans being completely intoxicated and feeling like i just felt. I could imagine riots everywhere.

Edited by MacD, 12 May 2013 - 03:45 PM.

[hav]

I will be performing the same tests next week and publishing my results.


My alcohol is wearing off now, but my word that was a strange feeling. I thought it was interesting to say that while i was mildly intoxicated.


Im quite a sensible person, but it is slightly worrying to think of some football hooligans being completely intoxicated and feeling like i just felt. I could imagine riots everywhere.

Curious if the effect remains constant. My own experience was that after I took c60/oo for a few months that I developed a resistance. At this point I seem to start getting a headache before feeling very intoxicated. On the other hand, mixing a little 98% resveratrol into a shot of 151 proof rum is still pleasant although the kick doesn't seem as strong as it used to.

Howard

[niner]

My alcohol is wearing off now, but my word that was a strange feeling. I thought it was interesting to say that while i was mildly intoxicated.

Im quite a sensible person, but it is slightly worrying to think of some football hooligans being completely intoxicated and feeling like i just felt. I could imagine riots everywhere.

Isn't alcohol is usually involved in football hooliganism/riots? Sounds like your experience wasn't wildly out of the spectrum of typical alcohol outcomes. I drink fairly often, and found that on c60, I just don't feel as drunk. There's a certain aspect of the high that's missing. On the other hand, I don't think my ability to do something like drive a car would be any better, c60 or not. There's definitely something different though. A lot of people have noted this.

[YOLF]

Here is something that may be of interest.....


I have had a few pints of alcoholic beverage, and the c60 arrogance seems to have kicked into me.


I honestly am feeling like my intelligence levels have shot through the roof and i am above and beyond that of mere mortal !!


Has anyone else had this effect with c60 and alcohol? (i doubt i will feel like this again because i seldomly consume alcohol)

There have been such reports, but we're keeping them hush hush... We don't want it becoming an adjuvant for street drugs as we wouldn't be able to use it anymore. Actually what I heard was that you get drunker faster and sober up quicker.

[niner]

I have had a few pints of alcoholic beverage, and the c60 arrogance seems to have kicked into me.
I honestly am feeling like my intelligence levels have shot through the roof and i am above and beyond that of mere mortal !!
Has anyone else had this effect with c60 and alcohol? (i doubt i will feel like this again because i seldomly consume alcohol)

There have been such reports, but we're keeping them hush hush... We don't want it becoming an adjuvant for street drugs as we wouldn't be able to use it anymore. Actually what I heard was that you get drunker faster and sober up quicker.

Are you just pulling MacD's leg, or have you really heard this? It's not my experience, and I don't remember anyone making that claim. Did you read it here at Longecity?

[YOLF]

I have had a few pints of alcoholic beverage, and the c60 arrogance seems to have kicked into me.
I honestly am feeling like my intelligence levels have shot through the roof and i am above and beyond that of mere mortal !!
Has anyone else had this effect with c60 and alcohol? (i doubt i will feel like this again because i seldomly consume alcohol)

There have been such reports, but we're keeping them hush hush... We don't want it becoming an adjuvant for street drugs as we wouldn't be able to use it anymore. Actually what I heard was that you get drunker faster and sober up quicker.

Are you just pulling MacD's leg, or have you really heard this? It's not my experience, and I don't remember anyone making that claim. Did you read it here at Longecity?

IIRC it came from turnbuckle, or at least he was in on the conversation and didn't want the DEA getting involved if drug users started cutting their drugs with it to get higher.

[MacD]

Placebo or not,

I do believe that i got drunk quicker and sobred up quicker now you mention it.

I also had a different feeling of drunk, one that honestly made me very arrogant and led me to believe i was of higher intelligence and superior than everyone else.

I of course know that this is not true, i am mediocre intelligence at best, but this is honestly what i felt.

It was an interesting experience (although one i doubt i will be repeating any time soon)

Edited by MacD, 13 May 2013 - 02:13 PM.

[YOLF]

I think the arrogance might be placebo... I don't know though, I haven't tried it...

The arrogance people talk about is more to do with "feeling better/stronger" and getting more active suddenly after taking it. This can result in pulled muscles and such things as people basically went from weak to strong very quickly and weren't ready to function at 100% despite having more energy and what not.

Edited by cryonicsculture, 13 May 2013 - 02:56 PM.