34 replies to this topic

[platypus]

People who have been on this forum long enough probably remember the hype that was surrounding resveratrol some years back. Now it seems that the hysteria around resveratrol seems to have receded and not very many people report dramatic effects from it. I'm wondering whether the current hype around C60 is similar, i.e. largely a placebo-effect? Please discuss.

[Turnbuckle]

If a placebo can grow hair and eliminate scars, then C60 is an excellent placebo.

[platypus]

If a placebo can grow hair and eliminate scars, then C60 is an excellent placebo.

That sounds fantastic but I'm trying to stay a skeptic until more reports come in. I think pretty fantastic clamis were also made in the Resveratrol 500mg per day club - thread too..

[Logic]

Check outCheck out Boris Sala here: http://c60antiaging.com/ Hype!??

[maxwatt]

When any new supplement appears, I think you have to hurry up and use it while it still works.

Resveratrol did not live up to David Sinclair's initial hype as a calorie restriction mimetic, in that it did not extend life-span of mice fed a normal diet, and interest waned thereafter. If resveratrol was 0ver-billed initially, the current skepticism is also unwarranted. Though the mice in Sinclair's study did not live a longer life span, they appeared to have a longer health-span, remaining active into old age longer than their peers. Human testing (mostly as reported in these forae) hint that this applies to humans. We know resveratrol agonizes PPAR-alpha and PPAR-gamma, resulting in enhanced insulin sensitivity, and stimulates mitochondria improving exercise tolerance. It also blocks progression of arthritis, though it does not cure it. See the resveratrol forum for posts regarding these effects. I consider it a supplement worth taking, and I feel it has worked wonders preventing progression of arthritis in my hands a toes. My dog has been taking it since she turned 8, when she had just started to develop arthritis. It has not progressed while she was on the supplement, whereas some of her littermates became crippled in short order and were put down. Now that she is 15, and blind and deaf, I am considering putting her to sleep rather than prolonging what seems a joyless existence... but I digress. She is an outlier for her species at 15, but by no means a methusela dog.

I doubt that young healthy people would notice any effect from resveratrol, and improved exercise performance for most people is probably so subtle it goes unnoticed.

C60 I would have to take on faith. It has not turned my grey hair black or had any other discernible effect for me. Where effects have been reported, it was for people suffering from a condition it may have helped, theoretically by improving mitochondrial function.

[mikeinnaples]

If C60 had placebo effect on me, it went way and above any placebo that resveratrol may of had. Even as a skeptic, I did have a very clear, measurable response to both muscle endurance and heart rate under load with C60 that I have a hard time attributing to placebo.

http://www.longecity...g-mikeinnaples/

People that are fitness enthusiets trend towards being very in touch with their physical capabilities and limitations. Generally speaking, mental state can and does allow you to break personal bests or to get that extra rep in past what you normally do. I have had some results that surpassed what I could possibly attribute to that.

As an example, I did 4 sets of squats with a static weight for three exercise periods prior to beginning C60 to establish a baseline.

Before sessions:

#1: 8/8/6/5
#2: 8/8/6/5
#3: 8/8/8/6

After C60 Session: 8/8/8/12

I doubled my 4th set rep count at the same weight. As you can see, it was the next session after one where I had just broken through a barrier.... umm yeah.


Another example is my heart rate taken under the same load (incline/speed) on a treadmill, using the same device to capture it:

Before sessions:

#1: 165
#2: 163
#3: 165

After C60 Session: 157


Placebo could be the cause, but then again ...maybe not.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 08 May 2013 - 03:49 PM.

[sthira]

When any new supplement appears, I think you have to hurry up and use it while it still works.

Haha, great quote! Even supplementing vitamin D is now questionable. It's too early to know much of anything about any substances that promote longer lives until there are more replicated studies. Rapamycin seems to increase the lifespans of yeast and mice? Resveratrol may help stabilize DNA and extend the lifespan of yeast, and maybe worms and fruit flies, too? CR may work (or not) in macaques? In free-living people? Who knows. Maybe drugs that trick the hypothalamus into thinking the body has consumed less food?

C60 and olive oil? It sounds so elegant and simple, but until more studies are replicated why are you willing to subject yourselves? Unless you're sick and desperate, I really don't understand. Is it thrill seeking behavior?

[Turnbuckle]

C60 and olive oil? It sounds so elegant and simple, but until more studies are replicated why are you willing to subject yourselves? Unless you're sick and desperate, I really don't understand. Is it thrill seeking behavior?

No big mystery. It's the age-old quest that drove Ponce de Leon to look for the Fountain of Youth. And that's what this site is about, after all.

[sthira]

No big mystery. It's the age-old quest that drove Ponce de Leon to look for the Fountain of Youth. And that's what this site is about, after all.

If you're older and sick (injured by statin use?) I understand reasons for doing your best to jump ahead of the science in hopes something may help. But the Ponce de Leon story that he was on an age-old quest was (apparently still is) a myth. Nowhere in the official record is the "Fountain of Youth" mentioned as reasons for his explorations. By contrast, he was contracted and instructed to subjugate the Indians and help divvy up any gold found.

Meanwhile, did you (Turnbuckle) think to take before and after pictures to support your n=1 claims?

[Andey]

I use C60 myself and pretty satisfied with results, but I dont support a hype around it. If you read the C60 subforum you could notice that only few members achived some miracle kind of effects like hair growth and scars dissapering. Silent majority noticed little to no effect at all. I dont like the thought that everybody would start to take c60 now because of expectation of such miracle things to happen. This is mostly untested supllement with unknown benefits and drawbacks and newcamers should consider all risks before adding it to a regimen. Some could damage own health with it, even if it looks safe for me.

[Turnbuckle]

Silent majority noticed little to no effect at all.

That could be, but the majority of those taking the C60 poll said they got positive benefits--74%, and the rest were neutral on the question.

No big mystery. It's the age-old quest that drove Ponce de Leon to look for the Fountain of Youth. And that's what this site is about, after all.

If you're older and sick (injured by statin use?) I understand reasons for doing your best to jump ahead of the science in hopes something may help. But the Ponce de Leon story that he was on an age-old quest was (apparently still is) a myth. Nowhere in the official record is the "Fountain of Youth" mentioned as reasons for his explorations. By contrast, he was contracted and instructed to subjugate the Indians and help divvy up any gold found.

Meanwhile, did you (Turnbuckle) think to take before and after pictures to support your n=1 claims?

Oh good grief. I'm not lauding Ponce de Leon by any means. I'm simply pointing out that people have been looking for such things for a long time. The people here are looking for such things, and if they aren't, then they are in the wrong place. The mission of Longecity, stated on the "about" page, is "to conquer the blight of involuntary death".

And no, I didn't take any pictures.

[sthira]

And no, I didn't take any pictures.

So are you now -- having consumed and allegedly benefitted by taking this substance -- in any way objectively documenting your experiences in any ways other than your words?

[Andey]

And no, I didn't take any pictures.

So are you now -- having consumed and allegedly benefitted by taking this substance -- in any way objectively documenting your experiences in any ways other than your words?

I dont think that anybody here is obliged to give evidence to his words. We all just sharing our experience and I appreciate highly Turnbuckle input an ideas about c60. This forum would be empty if everybody will need to back every word with photos, lab results etc

[sthira]

I dont think that anybody here is obliged to give evidence to his words. We all just sharing our experience and I appreciate highly Turnbuckle input an ideas about c60. This forum would be empty if everybody will need to back every word with photos, lab results etc

Fair enough. I understand that. But unless you all (y'all haha) provide some objective insight into where you are before consuming X and where you are after consuming X, then what's learned? I realize people are trying to do this through rat, mice, and chicken home science projects. That's great! And I love the free spirited fuck-the-science approach here -- it makes fun reading -- but isn't it all just hype until you get bloodwork and organize a bit?

[niner]

And I love the free spirited fuck-the-science approach here -- it makes fun reading -- but isn't it all just hype until you get bloodwork and organize a bit?

It's not entirely "fuck the science". Look at what MikefromNaples reported. That was careful work. Ordinary bloodwork isn't going to show us much. If people could get sophisticated tests of redox status, maybe that would, but that's hard to find and rather expensive.

It's not the case that only a small minority of people have seen effects from c60. Based on tracking these forums for a number of months, I can tell you that there have been a lot of people who have seen effects. I've said this multiple times in the past, but it bears repeating, since it's pretty clear that not everyone is following the c60 story at all closely- Young healthy people who are not well trained athletes quantitating their performance (like Mike did) are unlikely to "feel" anything. That doesn't mean it isn't doing something in young people- they just don't "feel" it.

[joelcairo]

Where is this hype you speak of? C60 is virtually unknown. A couple of websites and maybe a few dozen early adopters isn't exactly hype. Wait until Dr. Oz gets hold of this, THEN you'll see something.

BTW, resveratrol was indeed overhyped, but it's still a very interesting and powerful bioactive substance. It just turned out to probably not extend human life and be not unequivocally beneficial. I feel the same applies to pomegranate or goji berry or whatever -- just because something is being hyped doesn't mean you can't objectively evaluate its merits, doesn't mean it's not good for you.

[sthira]

Based on tracking these forums for a number of months, I can tell you that there have been a lot of people who have seen effects. I've said this multiple times in the past, but it bears repeating, since it's pretty clear that not everyone is following the c60 story at all closely- Young healthy people who are not well trained athletes quantitating their performance (like Mike did) are unlikely to "feel" anything. That doesn't mean it isn't doing something in young people- they just don't "feel" it.

Taking the stuff most certainly is doing something -- everything is chemistry -- mostly excreted out of your body -- or ??? How do you know one "something" from another "something"?

One rat study on toxicity. People get excited, the DIY crowd gathers, experiments, provides tips on how to craft it, companies form, compete, advertise, hype builds, then all speculate on "when?" and "how much?" and "what?" Soon people are writing: "My hair grew back" and "My skin wrinkles diminished" and "I lifted more weights, I'm stronger" and "My dick is humongous now."

Oh.

It feels like such fun PT Barnum circus stuff -- except I know there are sad, desperate people out there taking this stuff and hoping and hoping. I just don't know. If you're sick or damaged in some way and mainstream meds are out of reach, then I guess I'd be trying random stuff, too. But here we have healthy, willing subjects who take this, and I have to wonder if they really are very thoughtful. Or do you just take your own good health for granted so much that you don't realize what a huge gamble it is to possibly be throwing away your treasure? Don't gamble away your treasure -- your good health -- on what? And why?

A search for The Fountain of Youth, Turnbuckle writes. But can't we form better, more accurate ways to strive for that? Monetary donations? Or -- at least if you're gonna take this stuff -- oh, I don't know.... It certainly makes for fun reading but personally I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole until more studies replicate the one promising study you've already explored and exhausted.

[maxwatt]

I suspect it is genetic .... Some are fearful of anything new, others do not hesitate to try if it appears to them reasonably safe, a standard with sometimes rather elastic boundaries. In Sinclair's lab, maybe two thirds started taking resveratrol, while others were "wait and see".

Olive oil is not toxic...( except perhaps too much omega-6 over time.) We've gone over I don't know how many toxicology studies for C-60, and that appears non-toxic in the amounts people are using, and it seems not to be something that will accumulate untoward effects. The risk looks low, the potential benefits look great. At worst I think one might be wasting time and money.

The one variable most known to enhance longevity is physical exercise. I'm going to the gym.

[Turnbuckle]

I suspect it is genetic .... Some are fearful of anything new, others do not hesitate to try if it appears to them reasonably safe, a standard with sometimes rather elastic boundaries. In Sinclair's lab, maybe two thirds started taking resveratrol, while others were "wait and see".

I fail to see why some get in a snit about other people trying things. They should welcome the data, anecdotal that it is. Because it's unlikely that anyone can get a patent on this, and thus drug companies won't be interested. Human trials are unlikely, and the results would be far too late for a good portion here. And even it they did happen, humans just like us would be taking it. There is always a risk for somebody.

[hav]

Fwiw, I noticed a clear effect on my workout performance, energy levels, and arthritis relief when I first started taking resveratrol. No change when I started taking c60/oo a few years later. And my arthritis pain came back after I temporarily discontinued resveratrol (about 6 weeks after I ran out and had to switch suppliers) while taking c60/oo. And the arthritis pain subsided again after I restocked resveratrol. My energy levels and workout performance did not decline, however, during my resveratrol timeout so at best perhaps c60/oo and resveratrol have similar effects in that department for me but don't seem to be additive. My hair coloring doesn't seem to have changed much from either... if anything the slow greying process has continued. Also, I have bodily scars that haven't budged ever since I can remember them.

Obviously I'm not sticking with c60 for noticeable effects. Then again, I didn't notice much aging effects until I was well over 50. It's the fact that all 6 of the c60 treated Baati rats died without any sign of tumors or cancer that gets me... a pretty amazing result for Wistar rats. The results of repeat studies should be published in about 4 or 5 years. Maybe another 2 to 5 years for fda approval. Then the real hoopla can begin.

Howard

Edited by hav, 08 May 2013 - 09:09 PM.

[niner]

Where is this hype you speak of? C60 is virtually unknown. A couple of websites and maybe a few dozen early adopters isn't exactly hype.

Exactly. Some of you apparently were not paying attention during the multi-year resveratrol "craze". It was freaking everywhere! The media and the hucksters (along with a few responsible high quality supplement vendors) were all over it. You could hardly open a newspaper without reading about the "red wine molecule" and the "French Paradox". GSK got conned into buying Sirtris for $700M. It was nuts. Contrast that with c60-oo. TWO vendors in the WORLD. Zero mentions in the media. Very little on the net, aside from here. You call this hype? I think there's NOT ENOUGH hype! I'm a PhD pharmaceutical chemist and have worked in big pharma. I've never seen a molecule with this kind of potential. One of our members is an MD, and has similar feelings about it. I think that some hype will happen one of these days, as eventually the secret regarding endurance sports is going to get out.

For those who are afraid to try it, that's fine. No one is holding a gun to your head. Characterizing users as sad or desperate isn't accurate. This is a public forum, and there are some in the community who are prone to placebo effects, and a few that are crazy, but we also have a significant number of reports from rational observers that are unlikely to be placebo. The effects are consistent, they've been observed by large numbers of people, and they make sense given what we know about the chemistry of c60-oo.

[Turnbuckle]

It's the fact that all 6 of the c60 treated Baati rats died without any sign of tumors or cancer that gets me... a pretty amazing result for Wistar rats.

If C60 is stimulating stem cells differentiation (by activating their mitochondria) it could also be normalizing (or killing) cancer cells by the same process, and C60 could be the cure for cancers that operate by the Warburg effect--that is to say, most of them.

[tintinet]

I had better placebo effects from resveratrol (hypomania) than I've gotten from C60 OO (nada), but, for some reason (hope), I still take both.

I had better placebo effects from resveratrol (hypomania) than I've gotten from C60 OO (nada), but, for some reason (hope), I still take both.

C60 OO tastes way better, though, IMO.

[niner]

I had better placebo effects from resveratrol (hypomania)

hypomania is a known effect of low purity (50%) resveratrol, so if that's what you were taking, it probably wasn't placebo.

[mikeinnaples]

I had better placebo effects from resveratrol (hypomania)

hypomania is a known effect of low purity (50%) resveratrol, so if that's what you were taking, it probably wasn't placebo.

The emodin content causing that?

[mikeinnaples]

And I love the free spirited fuck-the-science approach here -- it makes fun reading -- but isn't it all just hype until you get bloodwork and organize a bit?

Some people are doing what they can, so I am not sure why you are making a generalization like that. For example, I am a software engineer and not a subject matter expert in any field even remotely relating to this. In other words, I am 100% layman.

Here is what I did before beginning C60:

1. Basic Labwork - Not expecting anything to show here period to be honest when I get my next labs run. The labwork I did was the basic, physical exam type and absolutely does not contain the type of tests that would be needed to show immediate or short term effects of C60 given my understanding of its theorized/rationalized mechanisms of action. If anything happens to my regular labs that can't be easily attributed to something else, I will be sure to post before/after.

2. Photo Evidence - I took pictures of my physique, my skin, a couple of prominent scars, hair line, hair color (including facial hair), and my face. If C60 has an affect on this, I would expect to be gradual. If it does impact these areas some how, it may not even express itself by reversing or improving condition. Perhaps it simply only slows down the aging in these areas. Nobody really knows what will happen, if something will happen, or if there is something else involved causing variance between different people in regards to effect (genetics, diet, exposure, etc.). My reasoning for taking such extensive pictures is to have 'evidence' to provide everyone in this community if something does indeed occur. I may not post a before/after example for a year, a decade, and maybe never... it all will depend on if something occurs or not. Even then, we may not be able to attribute it to C60 strictly. I know this is going to be sad news for some of the ladies that want to get another look a my sexy body..... ( I kid :p )

3. Physical Log - I test my physical ability across several muscle groups and several exercise sessions. I chose to concentrate my test on muscle fatigue/endurance rather than maximum strength based soley on the anecdotal reports of others. In other words, there were numerous reports of increased endurance and I designed my test to disprove them. People also were reporting these effects extremely quickly after beginning C60, so it was a perfect choice for me to provide evidence quickly one way or another. My results are in the link I provided for you earlier in this thread. Rather than disproving the anecdotal reports, my results supported them. The real question is whether or not you can attribute it to placebo effect or not. Personally, I think the results were to drastic to strictly be placebo but you should judge that for yourself.

[sthira]

That's cool, Mike. I apologize, I hadn't seen your posts. I wish you the very best of luck, and I'm looking forward to reading your results.

[tintinet]

I had better placebo effects from resveratrol (hypomania)

hypomania is a known effect of low purity (50%) resveratrol, so if that's what you were taking, it probably wasn't placebo.

Fun while it lasted, though!

[VP.]

And I love the free spirited fuck-the-science approach here -- it makes fun reading -- but isn't it all just hype until you get bloodwork and organize a bit?

Some people are doing what they can, so I am not sure why you are making a generalization like that. For example, I am a software engineer and not a subject matter expert in any field even remotely relating to this. In other words, I am 100% layman.

Here is what I did before beginning C60:

1. Basic Labwork - Not expecting anything to show here period to be honest when I get my next labs run. The labwork I did was the basic, physical exam type and absolutely does not contain the type of tests that would be needed to show immediate or short term effects of C60 given my understanding of its theorized/rationalized mechanisms of action. If anything happens to my regular labs that can't be easily attributed to something else, I will be sure to post before/after.

2. Photo Evidence - I took pictures of my physique, my skin, a couple of prominent scars, hair line, hair color (including facial hair), and my face. If C60 has an affect on this, I would expect to be gradual. If it does impact these areas some how, it may not even express itself by reversing or improving condition. Perhaps it simply only slows down the aging in these areas. Nobody really knows what will happen, if something will happen, or if there is something else involved causing variance between different people in regards to effect (genetics, diet, exposure, etc.). My reasoning for taking such extensive pictures is to have 'evidence' to provide everyone in this community if something does indeed occur. I may not post a before/after example for a year, a decade, and maybe never... it all will depend on if something occurs or not. Even then, we may not be able to attribute it to C60 strictly. I know this is going to be sad news for some of the ladies that want to get another look a my sexy body..... ( I kid :p )

3. Physical Log - I test my physical ability across several muscle groups and several exercise sessions. I chose to concentrate my test on muscle fatigue/endurance rather than maximum strength based soley on the anecdotal reports of others. In other words, there were numerous reports of increased endurance and I designed my test to disprove them. People also were reporting these effects extremely quickly after beginning C60, so it was a perfect choice for me to provide evidence quickly one way or another. My results are in the link I provided for you earlier in this thread. Rather than disproving the anecdotal reports, my results supported them. The real question is whether or not you can attribute it to placebo effect or not. Personally, I think the results were to drastic to strictly be placebo but you should judge that for yourself.

I am doing pretty much everything Mike is doing, 6 pages of lab work and photos plus a calibrated watt meter on my road bike that has years of data to go with it. It is in the watts that I expect to see a change if C60 works with endurance and power.

[YOLF]

Hmm... C60's effects in rats were much more pronounced. Can you dig up some examples of hyped claims?