51 replies to this topic

[Logic]

L-threonate represses the glycoprotein dickkopf-1 (Dkk-1) via alkaline phosphatase activity; releasing ascorbic acid into the cell.
This enhances neurogenesis in the hippocampus, and stops papilla cells from dying and the hair-producing outer root sheath cells from stopping to work.

So perhaps we get the same amount of Magnesium from the L-Threonate form as any other, but its the vitamin C inside the cell, causing neurogenisis, that adds the extra brainy effect.

Dickkopf makes fountain of youth in the brain run dry:
http://www.eurekaler...g-dmf020713.php

Loss of Dickkopf-1 Restores Neurogenesis in Old Age and Counteracts Cognitive Decline:
http://www.sciencedi...934590912006443

Induction of the Wnt Antagonist Dickkopf-1 Is Involved in Stress-Induced Hippocampal Damage:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3029367/

Neurogenesis and Alzheimer's disease: At the crossroads:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2864344/

Preventable effect of L-threonate, an ascorbate metabolite, on androgen-driven balding via repression of dihydrotestosterone-induced dickkopf-1 expression in human hair dermal papilla cells:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21034532

Enhanced Production of Mineralized Nodules and Collagenous Proteins In Vitro by Calcium Ascorbate Supplemented With Vitamin C Metabolites:
http://www.joponline...p.1999.70.9.992

Effects of L-threonate on bone resorption by osteoclasts in vitro:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15807273


So... It seems we can all stop losing hair about whether Magnesium-L-Threonate is better for the brain than other forms!

[xsiv1]

Absolutely great find. I knew this afro wasn't from nothing. Seriously though, if it's working for me in terms of perceived cognition enhancement (placebo or not), I always like to see some evidence that adds a multifaceted use to any supplement I take. Now I'm just going to have to reconsider my use of EFAs. Thanks for this legwork in finding some good links.

[Logic]

Thx xsiv1 It just kinda happened while I was looking at hair loss stuff and found the DKK-1 neurogenesis info. Strangely a similar thing happened a while back which is how I ended up with a couple of aspirin and coffee in my shampoo!

[ta5]

I question whether Magnesium-L-Threonate would supply any L-Threonate. It supplies a form of magnesium, no doubt. I know a lot of people assume that XXX-L-YYY will supply both XXX and YYY, and I used to assume so too, but if it's fully reacted, I don't think it does anymore. I think you need plain L-Threonate to get the effects you listed. Or, in the case of Calcium L-threonate, for example, you have the effects of Calcium L-threonate, which does what it does.

Edited by ta5, 15 May 2013 - 02:08 AM.

[Ukko]

Absolutely great find. I knew this afro wasn't from nothing. Seriously though, if it's working for me in terms of perceived cognition enhancement (placebo or not), I always like to see some evidence that adds a multifaceted use to any supplement I take. Now I'm just going to have to reconsider my use of EFAs. Thanks for this legwork in finding some good links.

Been taking Mg threonate both orally and topically for like year. Not like the impact on hair would have been huge. Maybe some, perhaps. What I find fascinating is that threonate has all kinds of effects in the brain too. People used to view it as an inert breakdown product of vitamin c. But it is actually hugely active biologically. Need to dig up the studies, but I recall the neurogenesis aspects of Mg threonate are best explained by increased threonate in the brain.

[DbCooper]

My hair has become thicker at my widows peak since taking Magnesium L-Threonate, I can also notice a slight increase in quick recall memory. Then again this is all N=1 on my part (yet I keep paying for the stuff).

[tunt01]

messing with Dickkopf seems like a really bad idea to me

[Logic]

I question whether Magnesium-L-Threonate would supply any L-Threonate. It supplies a form of magnesium, no doubt. I know a lot of people assume that XXX-L-YYY will supply both XXX and YYY, and I used to assume so too, but if it's fully reacted, I don't think it does anymore. I think you need plain L-Threonate to get the effects you listed. Or, in the case of Calcium L-threonate, for example, you have the effects of Calcium L-threonate, which does what it does.

That does not make sense ta5:
The brain needs Magnesium (amongst a host of other things) to work optimally, not Magnesium-L-Threonate. So the magnesium must be split off from the L-Threonate by some metabolic means right?

This would cause the double effect of supplying needed Magnesium and L-Threonate, with all it does.

[Logic]

Been taking Mg threonate both orally and topically for like year. Not like the impact on hair would have been huge. Maybe some, perhaps. What I find fascinating is that threonate has all kinds of effects in the brain too. People used to view it as an inert breakdown product of vitamin c. But it is actually hugely active biologically. Need to dig up the studies, but I recall the neurogenesis aspects of Mg threonate are best explained by increased threonate in the brain.

Plz do Ukko.
I can't find any studies showing conclusively that "the neurogenesis aspects of Mg threonate are best explained by increased threonate in the brain".
Just studies showing that L-Threonate blocks DKK-1 and restores youthfull levels of neurogenesis.

So all the evidence points to Magnesium-L-Threonate having a dual beneficial effect, but not enough so for those who enjoy a good argument!

[Logic]

messing with Dickkopf seems like a really bad idea to me

Why?
Its a protein that increases with age.
It stops young levels of neurogenesis and is implicated in Alzheimer's.
It causes hair loss and osteoarthritis.

Does it have some sort of protective effect that you know of??

[tunt01]

google: dickkopf-1 inhibit cancer

[ta5]

I question whether Magnesium-L-Threonate would supply any L-Threonate. It supplies a form of magnesium, no doubt. I know a lot of people assume that XXX-L-YYY will supply both XXX and YYY, and I used to assume so too, but if it's fully reacted, I don't think it does anymore. I think you need plain L-Threonate to get the effects you listed. Or, in the case of Calcium L-threonate, for example, you have the effects of Calcium L-threonate, which does what it does.

That does not make sense ta5:
The brain needs Magnesium (amongst a host of other things) to work optimally, not Magnesium-L-Threonate. So the magnesium must be split off from the L-Threonate by some metabolic means right?

This would cause the double effect of supplying needed Magnesium and L-Threonate, with all it does.

I know it's surprising. Here's a discussion about it:
http://www.longecity...m-mineral-aacs/

[cuprous]

google: dickkopf-1 inhibit cancer

I did and found a number of links indicating it suppresses cancer as well as this one indiciating it promotes it. Kindly make a case for your position rather than toss out "google it."

http://pubmedcentral...les/PMC3025080/

Results
Unexpectedly, DKK-1 significantly increased Ace-1 subcutaneous tumor mass and the incidence of bone metastases after intracardiac injection of Ace-1 cells. DKK-1 increased Ace-1 tumor growth associated with increased phospho46 JNK by the Wnt noncanonical pathway. As expected, DKK-1 decreased the Ace-1 osteoblastic phenotype of bone metastases, as confirmed by radiographic, histopathological, and microcomputer tomographic analysis. DKK-1 decreased osteoblastic activity via the Wnt canonical pathway evidenced by an inhibition of T-cell factor (TCF) activity in murine osteoblast precursor ST2 cells.

[tunt01]

I did and found a number of links indicating it suppresses cancer as well as this one indiciating it promotes it. Kindly make a case for your position rather than toss out "google it."

The better question is what are the long-term implications of inhibiting a protein that appears to be directly involved tumor suppression via WNT. Since when is supplementing or initiating an intervention innocent until proven guilty?

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22420644

Look at that abstract. Just one of several cancers that DKK1 is implicated in suppressing. You are telling me that a person should just throw caution to the wind and start inhibiting that pathway on a LT basis?

My position is "do no harm" first, then supplement second.

[niner]

I question whether Magnesium-L-Threonate would supply any L-Threonate. It supplies a form of magnesium, no doubt. I know a lot of people assume that XXX-L-YYY will supply both XXX and YYY, and I used to assume so too, but if it's fully reacted, I don't think it does anymore. I think you need plain L-Threonate to get the effects you listed. Or, in the case of Calcium L-threonate, for example, you have the effects of Calcium L-threonate, which does what it does.

That does not make sense ta5:
The brain needs Magnesium (amongst a host of other things) to work optimally, not Magnesium-L-Threonate. So the magnesium must be split off from the L-Threonate by some metabolic means right?

This would cause the double effect of supplying needed Magnesium and L-Threonate, with all it does.

I know it's surprising. Here's a discussion about it:
http://www.longecity...m-mineral-aacs/

That discussion was inconclusive. In that thread, I made the same argument as Logic does above. I still contend that MgT would be useless as a Mg source unless it dissociates. Salts generally dissociate to some degree when they dissolve in water. Depending on the metal ion and the counterion, they may dissociate almost entirely, or only a little bit. There is a chemical equilibrium between the bound form and the dissociated form, characterized by an equilibrium constant. If you remove some of the dissociated Mg, for example by it being bound to an enzyme, then more dissociation will occur until the product of the Mg and T concentration is again equal to the equilibrium constant. Because threonic acid is a weak acid, the MgT solubility equilibrium will be pH dependent. It should dissociate more in an acidic environment that in an alkaline environment. Blood is slightly alkaline; I don't know what the intracranial pH is.

[ta5]

That discussion was inconclusive. In that thread, I made the same argument as Logic does above. I still contend that MgT would be useless as a Mg source unless it dissociates. Salts generally dissociate to some degree when they dissolve in water. Depending on the metal ion and the counterion, they may dissociate almost entirely, or only a little bit. There is a chemical equilibrium between the bound form and the dissociated form, characterized by an equilibrium constant. If you remove some of the dissociated Mg, for example by it being bound to an enzyme, then more dissociation will occur until the product of the Mg and T concentration is again equal to the equilibrium constant. Because threonic acid is a weak acid, the MgT solubility equilibrium will be pH dependent. It should dissociate more in an acidic environment that in an alkaline environment. Blood is slightly alkaline; I don't know what the intracranial pH is.

If it survives stomach acid and digestive enzymes in order to get to your brain, I'm not sure how blood or brain tissue is going to make it dissociate.

All I can say is what I said in that thread. I still never got a rash from my high intake of magnesium taurate, so I'm quite sure in that case it's not supplying Taurine the same way as taking it separately. So, where we have a study showing some effect from L-Threonate, I would not count on Magnesium-L-Theonate having the same effect.

[Ukko]

Been taking Mg threonate both orally and topically for like year. Not like the impact on hair would have been huge. Maybe some, perhaps. What I find fascinating is that threonate has all kinds of effects in the brain too. People used to view it as an inert breakdown product of vitamin c. But it is actually hugely active biologically. Need to dig up the studies, but I recall the neurogenesis aspects of Mg threonate are best explained by increased threonate in the brain.

Plz do Ukko.
I can't find any studies showing conclusively that "the neurogenesis aspects of Mg threonate are best explained by increased threonate in the brain".
Just studies showing that L-Threonate blocks DKK-1 and restores youthfull levels of neurogenesis.

So all the evidence points to Magnesium-L-Threonate having a dual beneficial effect, but not enough so for those who enjoy a good argument!

Give me some time and I will find what I am alluding to. Did quite a bit of digging a while ago as I could not explain the effects of Mg threonate on brain function just based on magnesium.

[Ukko]

Been taking Mg threonate both orally and topically for like year. Not like the impact on hair would have been huge. Maybe some, perhaps. What I find fascinating is that threonate has all kinds of effects in the brain too. People used to view it as an inert breakdown product of vitamin c. But it is actually hugely active biologically. Need to dig up the studies, but I recall the neurogenesis aspects of Mg threonate are best explained by increased threonate in the brain.

Plz do Ukko.
I can't find any studies showing conclusively that "the neurogenesis aspects of Mg threonate are best explained by increased threonate in the brain".
Just studies showing that L-Threonate blocks DKK-1 and restores youthfull levels of neurogenesis.

So all the evidence points to Magnesium-L-Threonate having a dual beneficial effect, but not enough so for those who enjoy a good argument!

Give me some time and I will find what I am alluding to. Did quite a bit of digging a while ago as I could not explain the effects of Mg threonate on brain function just based on magnesium.

Found some stuff. Need to dig for more.

1. Problem: Vitamin C in the ascorbic acid form does not cross the BBB to brain. Traditionally, it was thought that it was the dehydroascorbic acid form how vitamin C got to the brain. Using glucose transports given the similarity between glucose and Vit c chemically. http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC508490/

2. Vitamin C is hugely important for brain function. We should all know that low brain vitamin C leads to low dopamine. Uncool, don't want that. What is also known is that vitamin C is needed for healthy BDNF production. Lots of studies on that...start from here: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15627972

3. How does Mg threonate fit into the picture? Well, its other part is threonic acid a molecule closely related to ascorbic acid. In fact, its breakdown product. Put there is increasingly data on threonic acid being able to do whatever ascorbic acid does, even preventing scurvy the classic syptom of vitamin C deficieny. Irrelevant whether threonic acid can actually be converted back to ascorbic acid or whether when we speak of scurcy and vitamin C deficiency, we are actually talking about threonic acid deficiency. Guess what? Threonic acid is up to 4 times better as vitamin C than ascorbic acid itself in that it prevents scurvy four times better than ascorbic acid. Wow. http://www.immunesup...ws/94spr002.htm It also hugely boosts cell uptake of ascorbic acid, maybe this is the mechanism. But it does not matter. Threonic acid makes the vitamin C metabolism work vastly better and it crosses over to brain through the BBB, at least when bound to a mineral like magnesium. Check this too:

"Dr. Veriangieri has shown that adding L-threonic acid to ascorbic acid or calcium ascorbate results in the same improved vitamin C activity as provided with calcium threonate. Additionally, he has shown that in a special breed of laboratory rat called the Osteogenic Disorder Shionogi (ODS) rat, calcium threonate is four to five times more effective than ascorbic acid in preventing scurvy. This is the accepted method for measuring vitamin C activity.The ODS rats do not manufacture vitamin C in their bodies. Thus, they have the same genetic handicap that humans do. For this reason ODS rats may replace guinea pigs for studying vitamin C."

So, it seems clear that both calcium and magnesium threonate will help to raise L-threonic acid levels in the brain, which in turn will have positive impact on things like brain antioxidant defenses, brain metabolism, BDNF and even dopamine. I bet you anything that the great results from the MG threonate studies are mostly due to this. After all, the increases in brain magnesium levels from mg threonate are too small to really matter much. There was a great thread on this recently.

It is not the magnesium. It is the L-threonate i.e. L-threonic acid. Just as it is on the balding human scalp.

[niner]

That discussion was inconclusive. In that thread, I made the same argument as Logic does above. I still contend that MgT would be useless as a Mg source unless it dissociates. Salts generally dissociate to some degree when they dissolve in water. Depending on the metal ion and the counterion, they may dissociate almost entirely, or only a little bit. There is a chemical equilibrium between the bound form and the dissociated form, characterized by an equilibrium constant. If you remove some of the dissociated Mg, for example by it being bound to an enzyme, then more dissociation will occur until the product of the Mg and T concentration is again equal to the equilibrium constant. Because threonic acid is a weak acid, the MgT solubility equilibrium will be pH dependent. It should dissociate more in an acidic environment that in an alkaline environment. Blood is slightly alkaline; I don't know what the intracranial pH is.

If it survives stomach acid and digestive enzymes in order to get to your brain, I'm not sure how blood or brain tissue is going to make it dissociate.

All I can say is what I said in that thread. I still never got a rash from my high intake of magnesium taurate, so I'm quite sure in that case it's not supplying Taurine the same way as taking it separately. So, where we have a study showing some effect from L-Threonate, I would not count on Magnesium-L-Theonate having the same effect.

You're right that Mg Threonate isn't the same as taking threonic acid or sodium threonate. However, in the brain, if there is a "sink" for the magnesium, then the Mg Threonate <-> Mg + Threonate equilibrium will keep running in the forward direction until all the Mg Threonate is used up, as long as the magnesium is soaked up. The compound undoubtedly dissociates in the stomach, even to a greater degree than it might in the brain. It might be 3% dissociated in the stomach, 1% in blood, and 2% in the brain, for example, but the real key to it is the degree to which the magnesium or the threonate ion is tied up by another biomolecule or process, which then removes it from the equilibrium, causing more to be released.

(edit): I should add that if you need a high concentration of threonate in order to, say, inhibit an enzyme, you might not get it from Mg Threonate if the dissociation constant is too low to provide that concentration. I've not been able to find a dissociation constant for Mg Threonate, so all I can tell you is that at equilibrium, the concentration of magnesium ion and threonate ion will be greater than zero, but I don't know how much greater.

Edited by niner, 16 May 2013 - 02:01 AM.

[Ukko]

And check this. They looked at the brain hippocampus biomarkers for biggest changes when one of the most commonly used anti-depressants, namely Paroxentine, was used. Take guess, which biomarker was most elevated? L-Threonic Acid. http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3309495/

[Ukko]

I did and found a number of links indicating it suppresses cancer as well as this one indiciating it promotes it. Kindly make a case for your position rather than toss out "google it."

The better question is what are the long-term implications of inhibiting a protein that appears to be directly involved tumor suppression via WNT. Since when is supplementing or initiating an intervention innocent until proven guilty?

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22420644

Look at that abstract. Just one of several cancers that DKK1 is implicated in suppressing. You are telling me that a person should just throw caution to the wind and start inhibiting that pathway on a LT basis?

My position is "do no harm" first, then supplement second.

Seriously, L-threonate is L-threonic acid, i.e. one breakdown product of ascorbic acid and closely related to if functionally. Freaking water soluble vitamin C. As in the stuff that is synthesized by most mammals and has been megadoses for decades by humans, also for chemo prevention. Do no harm? As in avoid vitamin C and citrus fruit also? Careful with extrapolating the in vitro petri dish studies out of context, please.

[Ukko]

Hey, maybe the Chinese can next to studies on Magnesium Cocaine for "chronic fatigue syndrome" and Magnesium Sildenafil for "erectile dysfunction". Hey, raise magnesium levels in your [deleted] just really perks it up.

[nightlight]

Dickkopf makes fountain of youth in the brain run dry:
http://www.eurekaler...g-dmf020713.php

Loss of Dickkopf-1 Restores Neurogenesis in Old Age and Counteracts Cognitive Decline:
http://www.sciencedi...934590912006443

Induction of the Wnt Antagonist Dickkopf-1 Is Involved in Stress-Induced Hippocampal Damage:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3029367/

It is uncanny how with nearly any newly discovered 'fountain of youth' biochemical mechanisms, tobacco smoke happens to push the same lever in the correct direction e.g.in this case it also inhibits Dickkopf-1 (of course, there is always negative spin given to such findings about tobacco, such as placing it in the cancer context). See the earlier thread 'smoking is good for you' for more examples.

[abelard lindsay]

DKK1 inhibition's major danger is ankylosing spondylitis which is basically when your bones grow so much they fuse together.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23171658

Excessive bone formation in a mouse model of ankylosing spondylitis is associated with decreases in Wnt pathway inhibitors.
Haynes KR, Pettit AR, Duan R, Tseng HW, Glant TT, Brown MA, Thomas GP.
Source
University of Queensland Diamantina Institute, Princess Alexandra Hospital, Ipswich Road, Brisbane, QLD 4101, Australia. gethin.thomas@uq.edu.au.
Abstract
ABSTRACT:
INTRODUCTION: Ankylosing spondylitis (AS) is unique in its pathology where inflammation commences at the entheses before progressing to an osteoproliferative phenotype generating excessive bone formation that can result in joint fusion. The underlying mechanisms of this progression are poorly understood. Recent work has suggested that changes in Wnt signalling, a key bone regulatory pathway, may contribute to joint ankylosis in AS. Using the proteoglycan-induced spondylitis (PGISp) mouse model which displays spondylitis and eventual joint fusion following an initial inflammatory stimulus, we have characterised the structural and molecular changes that underlie disease progression.

METHODS:
PGISp mice were characterised 12 weeks after initiation of inflammation using histology, immunohistochemistry (IHC) and expression profiling.RESULTS:
Inflammation initiated at the periphery of the intervertebral discs progressing to disc destruction followed by massively excessive cartilage and bone matrix formation, as demonstrated by toluidine blue staining and IHC for collagen type I and osteocalcin, leading to syndesmophyte formation. Expression levels of DKK1 and SOST, Wnt signalling inhibitors highly expressed in joints, were reduced by 49% and 63% respectively in the spine PGISp compared with control mice (P < 0.05) with SOST inhibition confirmed by IHC. Microarray profiling showed genes involved in inflammation and immune-regulation were altered. Further, a number of genes specifically involved in bone regulation including other members of the Wnt pathway were also dysregulated.

CONCLUSIONS:
This study implicates the Wnt pathway as a likely mediator of the mechanism by which inflammation induces bony ankylosis in spondyloarthritis, raising the potential that therapies targeting this pathway may be effective in preventing this process.

So yeah that's a bummer but then when people get old their bones break, their hair falls out and their memory goes, so maybe there's a therapeutic equilibrium that can be maintained by counteracting dkk-1 in the aged?

Edited by abelard lindsay, 17 May 2013 - 06:27 AM.

[abelard lindsay]

Did I kill this thread with the ankylosing spondylitis talk?

Ok looking into it more, it looks like DKK-1 inhibition is more of an effect than a cause and this is mostly a genetic disease:

http://en.wikipedia....Pathophysiology

Approximately 90% of AS patients express the HLA-B27 genotype, meaning there is a strong genetic association. However, only 5% of individuals with the HLA-B27 genotype contract the disease.^[18]

...
In 2001, it was suggested that AS arises from a cross-reaction between HLA-B27 and antigens of theKlebsiella bacterial genus.^[20]
...
A randomized controlled trial in Turkey demonstrated that 12-week therapy with moxifloxacin (which would kill Klebsiella) resulted in "significant and sustained improvement" in inflammatory symptoms in patients with ankylosing spondylitis.^[22]

so it's probably not related to DKK-1 directly. SOST is also highly involved so it's probably not going to cause a pathology without the presence of high levels of both.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 22 May 2013 - 04:22 AM.

[abelard lindsay]

DKK1 inhibition can help speed up bone fracture healing:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23525295

Some of the agents currently being developed for osteoporosis, notably sclerostin and DKK1 antibodies have shown a beneficial effect on fracture healing.

Epimedium, which downregulates DKK-1 expression, is also known as "Horny Goat Weed" for it's PDE5 inhibition characteristics.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22009597

Epimedium-derived flavonoids (EFs)] EFs regulate the balance between osteogenic and adipogenic differentiation of bone marrow stromal cells in ovariectomized rats by down-regulating expression of DKK1 protein.

So I guess the next thing I am going to rub into my scalp to prevent baldness is horny goat weed? Hopefully this will go better than my butyrate comic mis-adventure.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 23 May 2013 - 01:13 AM.

[niner]

my butyrate comic mis-adventure.

What happened? Did your hair start to smell like barf?

[Logic]

Thx for your input everyone. This is an interesting find!

While re-reading the:
Preventable effect of L-threonate, an ascorbate metabolite, on androgen-driven balding via repression of dihydrotestosterone-induced dickkopf-1 exp<b></b>ression in human hair dermal papilla cells.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21034532
The sentence "...We also demonstrated that L-ascorbic acid 2-phosphate (Asc 2-P) represses DHT-induced DKK-1 exp<b></b>ression..." jumped out at me.

A search for L-ascorbic acid 2-phosphate yielded very interesting results!

Effects of ascorbic acid and ascorbic acid 2-phosphate, a long-acting vitamin C derivative, on the proliferation and differentiation of human osteoblast-like cells
http://www.sciencedi...065699504000423

L-ascorbic acid 2-phosphate stimulates collagen accumulation, cell proliferation, and formation of a three-dimensional tissuelike substance by skin fibroblasts.
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2910890

Increased proliferation and replicative lifespan of isolated human corneal endothelial cells with L-Ascorbic acid 2-phosphate
http://www.iovs.org/...1-7592.full.pdf

AGE-DEPENDENT TELOMERE SHORTENING IS SLOWED DOWN BY ENRICHMENT OF INTRACELLULAR VITAMIN C VIA SUPPRESSION OF OXIDATIVE STRESS
http://www.terratern...larVitaminC.pdf

The last study comes from Terraternal's site where you can by Ascorbic Acid 2-Phosphate (Asc2P) as a supplement:
http://www.terratern...2P/617/177.aspx
NB: This stuff seems to be different from L-ascorbic acid 2-phosphate?

Searching 'L-ascorbic acid 2-phosphate L-threonat' brings up Examin.com's excellent site with a great summary of both substances and the fact that "L-Threonate is a deriviative of L-ascorbic acid 2-phosphate (which in and of itself is a derivative of Ascorbic Acid, otherwise known as Vitamin C)":
http://examine.com/s...ts/L-Threonate/

Also a lot of Hair-Loss forums where this has been researched and discussed.

?: Is L-ascorbic acid 2-phosphate L-threonat a magnesium salt?
http://link.springer...2272-001-2164-4

Time to sit back and make sense of all this!

Edited by Logic, 23 May 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[xsiv1]

Great finds.. Now to sift through it all when I get the time. Question, have you purchased anything from the aforementioned site without issue in the past. I'm not familiar with it is why I ask.

[Logic]

Great finds.. Now to sift through it all when I get the time. Question, have you purchased anything from the aforementioned site without issue in the past. I'm not familiar with it is why I ask.

Thx.
Nope. And not that its NOT the same stuff as in the other studies.