51 replies to this topic

[xsiv1]

Great finds.. Now to sift through it all when I get the time. Question, have you purchased anything from the aforementioned site without issue in the past. I'm not familiar with it is why I ask.

Thx.
Nope. And not that its NOT the same stuff as in the other studies.

Cool. Interesting nonetheless, thanks for the info.

[Logic]

This has been partially discussed before and I even posted in the thread!
http://www.longecity...253#entry589253
Soz Abelard Lindsay.

I keep thinking that I really need to get on a good memory stack, then I forget..!

Edited by Logic, 24 May 2013 - 11:30 PM.

[xsiv1]

... then you forget. Heheh

[Logic]

I found a study saying that Lithium Chloride also activates WNT signalling in osteoblasts strongly enough to inhibit Myeloma.
http://bloodjournal....5/2833.full.pdf

That would explain why it works for depression/Bipolar and L-threonate should work similarly.
Interesting!

[goobicii]

hey! please good souls of longecity,I am going to buy this,is this ultimate magnesium stack for 21 year old male bodybuilder?

Magnesium Orotate 2x 650mg a day ( Swanson )

Magesium L Threonate 2000mg a day ( Life Extesion )

Magnesium Creatine Chelate ( albion Swanson )


is there any superb form I NEED to have in this stack?

Edited by goobicii, 08 June 2013 - 05:30 PM.

[xsiv1]

hey! please good souls of longecity,I am going to buy this,is this ultimate magnesium stack for 21 year old male bodybuilder?

Magnesium Orotate 2x 650mg a day ( Swanson )

Magesium L Threonate 2000mg a day ( Life Extesion )

Magnesium Creatine Chelate ( albion Swanson )


is there any superb form I NEED to have in this stack?

Why would you, as a bodybuilder or anyone for that matter want to ingest that much magnesium? Those amounts will prove to be counterproductive to human health or am I missing something here lol?

[goobicii]

Why would you, as a bodybuilder or anyone for that matter want to ingest that much magnesium? Those amounts will prove to be counterproductive to human health or am I missing something here lol?

dude are you serious ? 654mg magnesium orotate = 40mg elemental magnesium
2000mg magnesium L Threonate = 144mg elemental magnesium



that is not even half recomended rda for average 70kg male,not only I am ten kg heavier but most important I have very intense workouts everyday

Edited by goobicii, 10 June 2013 - 09:11 PM.

[xsiv1]

Why would you, as a bodybuilder or anyone for that matter want to ingest that much magnesium? Those amounts will prove to be counterproductive to human health or am I missing something here lol?

dude are you serious ? 654mg magnesium orotate = 40mg elemental magnesium
2000mg magnesium L Threonate = 144mg elemental magnesium



that is not even half recomended rda for average 70kg male,not only I am ten kg heavier but most important I have very intense workouts everyday

Yes, I was serious and thought you were talking about elemental totals. You never know who you come across these days... Especially in the bodybuilding world ;-)
Been in the game long enough (and out), to have seen some drastic measures. It's just habit for me I guess when I speak of magnesium supplementation (400ish) myself to talk in elemental numbers but it could be me. Bodybuilders, especially when upping cardio, need supplemental magnesium more so than sedentary people.

[JBForrester]

messing with Dickkopf seems like a really bad idea to me

Trade-off?

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19675559

It seems that with many hair-thickening supplement/products out there, there is a negative effect on the skin that goes along. Minoxidil for example:

http://www.medscape....rticle/470297_5

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2826267

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8311472

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1546087

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7625861

http://www.greenmedi...kin-disorders-0

[xks201]

So magnesium l threonate will work as the l threonate source?

[ta5]

Can someone with chemistry knowledge explain the relationship between:

• L-Threonate
• Threonic Acid
• L-Threose

Is L-Threonate just another term for Threonic Acid?

L-Threose is a simple sugar. I see it described along with Fructose, Glucose, and other 'oses:

But, Threonic Acid is a sugar acid, which will have completely different effects from plain L-Threose. Right? For example, Ascorbic Acid is a sugar acid.

[niner]

Can someone with chemistry knowledge explain the relationship between:

• L-Threonate
• Threonic Acid
• L-Threose

Is L-Threonate just another term for Threonic Acid?

L-Threose is a simple sugar. I see it described along with Fructose, Glucose, and other 'oses:

But, Threonic Acid is a sugar acid, which will have completely different effects from plain L-Threose. Right? For example, Ascorbic Acid is a sugar acid.

You've basically got it.

Threose is a four carbon sugar with an aldehyde at one end, thus it is an aldose.

Threonic acid is what you get when you oxidize the aldehyde to a carboxylate, creating a sugar acid.

Threonate is the ionized form of threonic acid, where the carboxylate proton has been removed and the threonate remains with a negative charge.

All of this has nothing to do with the amino acid threonine, which is the usual thing people think of first.

[ta5]

Products with L-Threonate:

• Magnesium Threonate (NeuroMag/Magtein/MagMind)
• Calcium Threonate (Biocalth)
• Pureway-C
• Ester-C
• Transport C-PLUS (AlphaSorb-C)

Any others?

[Saffron]

I might need to try this for hairloss

but i am skeptical of neural genesis in the hippocampus

that claim is made for like 100 different things, that they do neurogenesis in the hippocampus

Abstracts and studies are often incorrect and also they never tell you HOW MUCH something does something, unless you find like IC50 values

So for instance they might say 100 different things cause neurogenesis but nothing really doesnt it to any significant level except Stablon.

Doesnt anyone else feel a lack of confidence on how abstracts claim everything does everything?

Watch this, Im going think of a random herb and type neurogenesis with it to get abstracts. a totally random herb.

Im going to type ginseng neurogenesis and i bet ill get results -- i thought of ginseng at random

........

done, heres my results:

Ginseng total saponins enhance neurogenesis after focal cerebral ischemia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21073942

Ginseng enhances contextual fear conditioning and neurogenesis in rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15596238


see how you can just think of random things and type neurogenesis and then find abstracts on it?

and notice how abstracts always contradict each other? Ive seem ones that say DIM inhibits CYP1A2 next to ones that say DIM Induces CYP1A2 .. ive seen so many contradictions in abstracts. I dont trust them like people into supplements do, their so weak.

Check this out, ill do it again, ill think of a random herb and type neurogenesis with it and im sure theres abstracts on it.

Green Tea.

Here,

Green tea epigallocatechin-3-gallate (EGCG) promotes neural progenitor cell proliferation and sonic hedgehog pathway activation during adult hippocampal neurogenesis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22692966


its so asinine how everything does everything and you can find an abstract for things you make up at random in your head.

[celebes]

Study blast. Mood disorders, brain injury, and Parkinson's.

 

 

Dickkopf 1 mediates glucocorticoid-induced changes in human neural progenitor cell proliferation and differentiation

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22048647

 

 

Induction of Dickkopf-1, a negative modulator of the Wnt pathway, is associated with neuronal degeneration in Alzheimer's brain

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15229249

 

 

The Wnt Pathway in Mood Disorders

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3468878/

 

 

A novel role of the WNT-dishevelled-GSK3β signaling cascade in the mouse nucleus accumbens in a social defeat model of depression

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21697359

 

 

Wnt signalling regulates adult hippocampal neurogenesis

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16251967

 

 

Wnt Signaling Enhances Neurogenesis and Improves Neurological Function after Focal Ischemic Injury

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3398894/

 

 

Increased Dickkopf-1 expression in transgenic mouse models of neurodegenerative disease

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20050968

 

 

Induction of the Wnt inhibitor, Dickkopf-1, is associated with neurodegeneration related to temporal lobe epilepsy

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17437412

 

 

Reactive astrocytes and Wnt/β-catenin signaling link nigrostriatal injury to repair in the MPTP model of Parkinson’s disease

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3558878/

 

 

Uncovering novel actors in astrocyte–neuron crosstalk in Parkinson’s disease: the Wnt/β-catenin signaling cascade as the common final pathway for neuroprotection and self-repair

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3660182/

Edited by celebes, 18 April 2014 - 06:11 PM.

[adamh]

Most likely, as is the case with most things we find in the body, Dickkopf-1 is needed but in moderation. When we have too much we see the negative side but it must be needed or we wouldn't produce it. Very likely l-threonate is needed in adults and more so as they age to restore the balance. Too much threonate would probably be harmful as well.

 

Btw, dick kopf means thick head in german. Perhaps it refers to thick hair or more likely refers to the loss of cognitive functions as in someone who is a bit thick.

 

I ordered a bottle, we will see what the fuss is about.

[celebes]

For anyone considering Vitamin C as a source:

 

Ester-C is only 1% L-Threonate. Threonate is indeed an Ascorbate metabolite, but the main pathway that produces it is dependent on Hydrogen Peroxide and Catalysis so minor under physiological conditions. Megadosing and Cu/Fe excess can tilt the balance towards that pathway, but that happens to be the very concern behind all the warnings about excess Ascorbate, so self-defeating.

 

Dehydroascorbic acid and 2,3-Diketogulonate are the primary intermediates; Hexose Monophosphate Shunt components, Oxalate, Erythrulose and other Aldoses, Sugar Acids and Alcohols make up the bulk of the end products, generally in that order. Ascorbate conjugates (methyl, sulphate, phosphate, glucuronate) are also produced, possibly for storage. The exact proportions depend on Ascorbate status and Redox balance but still haven't been fully outlined.

 

At saturation, approximately 50mg of Ascorbate is catabolised per day. There is no data I could find but 1-5mg might be a ballpark for the maximum amount of Threonate produced normally, but that is very rough. I think it's safe to say that even if I'm off by an order of magnitude, Threonate probably needs to be taken directly. Extraneous Ascorbate above 200mg/day is only incrementally absorbed and excreted unmetabolised so shouldn't be pertinent.

[adamh]

I got a bottle of the stuff, doctors best bought on amazon. I was hoping it would help with sleep since I had heard it does. The improved cognition and hair thicker would be nice. I started out with 1 cap, 666mg even though it said take 3 a day. The next morning I felt great, it seemed like I had slept better. In the days that went by I kept at 1 cap a day since it seemed to be having an effect at that dose. More is not always better. After about a week I noticed that it seemed to be very stimulating, I could not think of anything else I was taking that could cause it. I also notices mild muscle twitches, mostly in my legs.

 

I felt great, my mood was good and I seemed to get by on less sleep. After about 10 days it seemed like a little too much, it was harder to get to sleep and I felt worn out so I discontinued. I haven't given up, after a few days off I will probably go back to it maybe one cap every 2 days and see how that works or maybe a week on and a few days off. I read on the web at least one other person found it stimulating and quit. I don't mind the feeling, it was nice but sleep is important. It figures I would have a rare reaction. I use piracetam among other things and pir often enhances the effect of other drugs, I've noticed.

 

It seems more than odd that magnesium would do it and a breakdown product of vit c does not seem to be likely stimulating either. I have heard it is supposed to stimulate mental function though this thread has talked about hair loss mostly. It may be simply mental stimulation that had a physical effect too. I noticed something similar when I was taking frankensence. N = 1 so maybe file this under rare effect. Anyone else taking it who noticed something from it? What was your dose? I imagine I would be bouncing off the walls if I took 3 caps a day. Could be placebo but not likely after that long. I didn't  expect this at all.

[Avatar of Horus]

Some scientific backround information on the subjects of this topic: neurogenesis, hair loss, DKK-1, can be found in the Biosciences/Aging theories section of the forum, here in this post:
http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=726056
and the 2 previous one too.

[Logic]

Thx Avatar.

 

You seem to be doing a great job of cross referencing my threads/posts!?  

[Avatar of Horus]

Thx Avatar.

 

You seem to be doing a great job of cross referencing my threads/posts!?  

 

It's just a coincidence.

I generally make links in other topics/posts if my post has some relevancy to those. In this case:

I was examining the role of Bone Morphogenetic Protein, BMP signaling in various biological processes, and it turned out to have a role in neurogenesis and hair growth too, in connection to DKK-1.

[the_apollo]

L-threonate seems amazing judging from all the studies,, too bad then that Magnesium L-threonate is a patented substance,

which calls in to question all the reseach made on the substance where they compare the substance to other forms of magnesium.

 

It's all just possible that other forms of magnesium does the exact same thing, difference being that the patentholder who may have payed for studies

or "assisted" with monetary compensation under the table just hid the data saying how little the difference in effect between the forms of magnesium.

 

 

http://www.ift.org/f...lthreonate.aspx

http://www.google.co...4109863A1?cl=en