23 replies to this topic

[peakplasma]

My e-bay laser arrived today!

As noted, it is a 830nm, 200mW focusable laser module (but unfortunately, it seems they sent me a cross-line shape module rather than a dot shape).

SAFETY:
I have some cheap safety goggles but I am extremely paranoid so I cover my eyes and close them while the laser is turned on. Also, I make sure to point it at an angle away from eyes (and any potentially disastrous reflective angles) at all times. Say what you will but I love my eyes!

Beyond eye safety, everything I have read suggests a perfect safety profile. Even after 5 minutes it does not appear to noticeably heat up the skin or dark objects.

Please educate me about any other possible risks.

Before I start shining this thing all over the place is there anything else I should now? I first plan to use it on a recent cut to see how it aids healing.

Am I really crazy to want to shine this thing on my forehead? What can go wrong?

[Reformed-Redan]

Can you give the power density of this particular laser?

[peakplasma]

Can you give the power density of this particular laser?

I'm not sure since it isn't the laser dot module; it is like a weird t-cross. With the dot module it was supposed to focus to a 5mm diameter.

EDIT: I wonder will density really matter since the focus will scatter through the skull?

Edited by peakplasma, 19 May 2013 - 01:54 AM.

[peakplasma]

I gave it a test run this morning.

I physically blindfolded my eyes and shined the laser on my forehead for approximately 15 seconds (steamboats).

I realize this is probably placebo but it seemed to work. I had just woken up and my sleep inertia and grogginess was completely gone before I even removed the blindfold.

I felt very calm and aware.

No other effects to report.

[Turnbuckle]

Since laser light will scatter in any case, why not use a red LED flashlight? I do feel something from it, especially when placing it at the crown of my head.

[peakplasma]

Since laser light will scatter in any case, why not use a red LED flashlight? I do feel something from it, especially when placing it at the crown of my head.

Can you tell me about your experiences?

LED should have similar effectiveness as a laser diode if they have a similar energy density but that flashlight has only about 9mW per LED. Also, I am using near-infrared light which might be the key to success and is used in the most promising studies.

I am aiming for the parameters in the 2009 Major Depression study which uses 810 nm at 250 mW/cm². In the 2007 Human Stroke study, and 2009 Human Stroke study, they used they used 808 nm at 1000 mw/cm². Given my sloppy methods and unfocused laser, I think I'm probably getting around 75mw/cm²

[lostfalco]

I gave it a test run this morning.

I physically blindfolded my eyes and shined the laser on my forehead for approximately 15 seconds (steamboats).

I realize this is probably placebo but it seemed to work. I had just woken up and my sleep inertia and grogginess was completely gone before I even removed the blindfold.

I felt very calm and aware.

No other effects to report.

Welcome to the laser club.

Trust me, it's not placebo (isn't that what all placebo deceived individuals say?). Truthfully, I'm very suspicious of myself and the boundless human capacity for self-deception (thanks Kahneman, Trivers, cognitive psychologists, etc.) but the instant clarity and vasodilation effects are very noticeable. Not to get all mystical and stuff (I don't believe in god) but it feels like pure clarity or pure awareness maybe. I don't really know how else to describe it. It is like you move to the very front of your senses with no feeling of "stimulation" at all. Would you describe it similarly?

[peakplasma]

Welcome to the laser club.

Trust me, it's not placebo (isn't that what all placebo deceived individuals say?). Truthfully, I'm very suspicious of myself and the boundless human capacity for self-deception (thanks Kahneman, Trivers, cognitive psychologists, etc.) but the instant clarity and vasodilation effects are very noticeable. Not to get all mystical and stuff (I don't believe in god) but it feels like pure clarity or pure awareness maybe. I don't really know how else to describe it. It is like you move to the very front of your senses with no feeling of "stimulation" at all. Would you describe it similarly?

It was eerily subtle. It is very hard to describe but I felt neither stimulated nor sedated.

In your opinion, what are the risks? I keep reading that it is extremely safe but it felt too powerful to be as safe as the science suggests.

[Turnbuckle]

...but that flashlight has only about 9mW per LED...

I am aiming for the parameters in the 2009 Major Depression study which uses 810 nm at 250 mW/cm².

What was the total laser power, though? mW/cm2 doesn't mean much when the laser has a small spot size and spreads out going through bone.

[lostfalco]

Welcome to the laser club.

Trust me, it's not placebo (isn't that what all placebo deceived individuals say?). Truthfully, I'm very suspicious of myself and the boundless human capacity for self-deception (thanks Kahneman, Trivers, cognitive psychologists, etc.) but the instant clarity and vasodilation effects are very noticeable. Not to get all mystical and stuff (I don't believe in god) but it feels like pure clarity or pure awareness maybe. I don't really know how else to describe it. It is like you move to the very front of your senses with no feeling of "stimulation" at all. Would you describe it similarly?

It was eerily subtle. It is very hard to describe but I felt neither stimulated nor sedated.

In your opinion, what are the risks? I keep reading that it is extremely safe but it felt too powerful to be as safe as the science suggests.

Tbh, I attempted to mitigate the risks by copying the study parameters as closely as I could and erring on the side of less stimulation. My laser is weaker than the study lasers and I stick to their time parameters just to be safe.

[peakplasma]

...but that flashlight has only about 9mW per LED...

I am aiming for the parameters in the 2009 Major Depression study which uses 810 nm at 250 mW/cm².

What was the total laser power, though? mW/cm2 doesn't mean much when the laser has a small spot size and spreads out going through bone.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly.

The energy hitting the brain is difficult to estimate and is going to depend on a number of factors such as hair, skin colour, thickness of the skull, etc.

Regarding my laser, Scott Roberts (heelspurs) commented in another thread that:

The 200 mW will be dispersed mostly in about 4 cm^2 by the time it makes it through the skull, if you're one of those using it for that. So 50 mW/cm^2.

I think that is a bit optimistic. Since in the study they stated they delivered "irradiance of 250 mW/cm² when applied at 4 mm from the skin" and estimated about "9.5 mW/cm² to the surface of the brain".

So the actual energy hitting the brain will be impossible to estimate without some sophisticated equipment, no?

Welcome to the laser club.

Trust me, it's not placebo (isn't that what all placebo deceived individuals say?). Truthfully, I'm very suspicious of myself and the boundless human capacity for self-deception (thanks Kahneman, Trivers, cognitive psychologists, etc.) but the instant clarity and vasodilation effects are very noticeable. Not to get all mystical and stuff (I don't believe in god) but it feels like pure clarity or pure awareness maybe. I don't really know how else to describe it. It is like you move to the very front of your senses with no feeling of "stimulation" at all. Would you describe it similarly?

It was eerily subtle. It is very hard to describe but I felt neither stimulated nor sedated.

In your opinion, what are the risks? I keep reading that it is extremely safe but it felt too powerful to be as safe as the science suggests.

Tbh, I attempted to mitigate the risks by copying the study parameters as closely as I could and erring on the side of less stimulation. My laser is weaker than the study lasers and I stick to their time parameters just to be safe.

So you use it for 3-4 minutes on each spot?

[lostfalco]

Generally. Sometimes less, never more.

[zorba990]

Just be sensible and pay attention to your response. I use a much more powerful one and have never hurt myself.
http://coldlasersupp...es-and-athletes
despite using it quite close to my eyes, over my spine and even on the temples. But ymmv .

[peakplasma]

Just be sensible and pay attention to your response. I use a much more powerful one and have never hurt myself.
http://coldlasersupp...es-and-athletes
despite using it quite close to my eyes, over my spine and even on the temples. But ymmv .

WOW. 210,000 mW (210w). Do you have any idea what the irradiance was? I like how its a football player and a racehorse.

Did you experience any issues with heating of the skin?

How did you use it? For how many minutes? Any side effects from using it on your temples?

Edited by peakplasma, 19 May 2013 - 06:29 PM.

[zorba990]

I use it max 5 minutes per spot when on high but usually less. It does get warm after a bit of use.. I used to do 5 minutes down my back for each vertebrae and then at the back of the hip areas. The increase in flexibility was very noticible. However, there was often an increase in inflammation for several days afterwards in old injury spots. I think there is a video on youtube where the inventor shows its use with infrared camera footage.

No side effects from use anywhere on the skull for me except for a very small hair growth increase (not new hairs unfortunately)

[Major Legend]

I don't understand - how can you feel more awake but its not stimulation? The method I understand in which how it works can be considered a form of stimulation, just not the chemical kind we are used too.

I wonder if this has any effect on executive function...any tests you can do?

[peakplasma]

I don't understand - how can you feel more awake but its not stimulation? The method I understand in which how it works can be considered a form of stimulation, just not the chemical kind we are used too.

I wonder if this has any effect on executive function...any tests you can do?

It stimulates the brain but I think that "the conscious mind" may not be aware or cannot directly interpret the stimulation.

I played a few different games before and after and my scores slightly improved but it won't be conclusive unless I can effectively blind myself.

[lostfalco]

I don't understand - how can you feel more awake but its not stimulation? The method I understand in which how it works can be considered a form of stimulation, just not the chemical kind we are used too.

I wonder if this has any effect on executive function...any tests you can do?

My guess is that the laser pretty much only stimulates your brain. Contrast this with something like caffeine..."Caffeine consumption has multiple systemic effects, involving the neuropsychiatric, cardiovascular, endocrine, and gastrointestinal systems."

Just a guess. Anyway, it feels like you are very awake...no elevated heart rate or edginess or irritability. That feeling does go away after a while and I think the best effect of the laser is actually endurance related.

Anecdote: I have noticed small but significant increases in dual n-back scores immediately after using the laser on my dlpfc. I think it's due to vasodilation and additional energy available for attention. The effect fades after a little while. I have only tested this 4 or 5 times and I knew I was using the laser so.......very anecdotal.

[renfr]

That thing would be killer if mixed with ginkgo and other vasodilators I guess.

What difference would the 210 000 mw make compared to the one purchased by peakplasma? More brain penetration?

Concerning safety even if that was studied among brain damaged patients well we never know about long term safety, maybe you're actually irradiating your brain cells without knowing. Short term cognitive enhancement doesn't mean it cannot cause adverse effects.

Edited by renfr, 19 May 2013 - 08:50 PM.

[lostfalco]

That thing would be killer if mixed with ginkgo and other vasodilators I guess.

What difference would the 210 000 mw make compared to the one purchased by peakplasma? More brain penetration?

Concerning safety even if that was studied among brain damaged patients well we never know about long term safety, maybe you're actually irradiating your brain cells without knowing. Short term cognitive enhancement doesn't mean it cannot cause adverse effects.

Daily for 6 years is the longest known administration; no side effects. You are correct...long term is very unknown.

[peakplasma]

That thing would be killer if mixed with ginkgo and other vasodilators I guess.

What difference would the 210 000 mw make compared to the one purchased by peakplasma? More brain penetration?

Concerning safety even if that was studied among brain damaged patients well we never know about long term safety, maybe you're actually irradiating your brain cells without knowing. Short term cognitive enhancement doesn't mean it cannot cause adverse effects.

Yes, I'm very concerned about potential health issues. The issue is how much is too much? Arguably, spending time outdoors in bright sunlight exposes you to comparable levels.

Here is some perspective from heelspurs,

Our ancestors have been exposed to 0.01 to 0.03 W/cm^2 of sunlight in the red to near-infrared range for up to 6 hours a day, giving an average daily dosage in the hundreds of J/cm^2 for very large areas of skin

[peakplasma]

UPDATE:
I used the laser on a freshly botched hangnail just above my fingernail for about 8-10 minutes this morning. After about 12 hours I'm impressed! It seems to have accelerated the healing significantly. The wound is already healed to 1/3 of its original size and the skin around it is almost completely back to normal.

This may seem insignificant but I was pretty amazed! Usually it would take about 3 days for a ripped hangnail to look as good as this.

[Spinlock]

In the study they said they used an LED which would be much more eye safe than a laser.

[Balfi]

Here is some information about LLLT which mentions executive function as well as depression.

https://www.psio.com...e-and-brain.pdf

I have experimented with LLLT myself using the 96 LED IR panel. I also have two lasers: 808nm, 200mw and an 808nm, 5mw.

Like others have said, I seem to feel a little strange after using the LED's. I have noticed good results from using at night, 10 - 20 seconds per area on the head. I notice a physical sensation of more blood flow to the brain for the next couple of days. I prefer every other day, maximum.

I also use on the gut, heart, chest, back and spine. I believe that using the IR LEDs over the brown fat areas (shoulders, neck, sternum area) also activates the mitochondria there, and I could feel warmer the next day.

I have not used the 808nm lasers much, but I did NOT have a good experience using the 200mw laser on my temples. Probably about 20 seconds. I felt like I damaged my brain for a few days.. Oh well, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger! Only half kidding.. I will be using LLLT at much smaller doses.

I also am concerned about using the light at night in upsetting the circadian rhythm.. Generally speaking, it's best to keep a low light environment at night and the evening. In that thinking, perhaps a low dose of LLLT would be appropriate in the AM when the sun naturally produces the most amount of IR light.. For more info about that, I recommend looking up Helio Therapy as well as Dr. Jack Kruse. Near infrared sauna would also be in the same realm.