709 replies to this topic

[formergenius]

i'm still here

updated

[KieranA001]

List of people who have expressed interest in the group buy so far:
socialpiranha
lourdaud
Cosma
lucky.pierre
lammas2
JustAMan
hzwe
celebes
LetMusicRule
Strangelove
uralsky
meatsauce
addx
formergenius (myself)

possibly:
KieranA001

and perhaps Here_Now judging from this post.

So that's 14-16 people.. How many people are we aiming for here?

Yes. I'm definitely in. I'm feeling so down right about now. I'm actually having suicidal thoughts because I feel like I'm being judged by people. Very down indeed with a lot of insomnia... I just want this to end.

[fanta2y]

Add me to the list

[celebes]

and perhaps Here_Now judging from this post.

So that's 15-16 people.. How many people are we aiming for here?

At lucky.pierre's price, 15 people would get 2 years of 100mcg daily for $400 plus shipping. Which translates into 6-12 years p.r.n. or, really, until it decomposes. We should probably get a consensus on what an acceptable buy-in would be for everyone.

Edited by celebes, 03 December 2013 - 06:13 PM.

[KieranA001]

So how much would one person have to pay for this stuff? Also, when will we be able to get this stuff ? :-) Does anyone have an exact list of the effects, including any bad side-effects and withdrawals ?

[formergenius]

Well.. I'm not a registered user, so I can't edit my post any more, but I'll update the list soon as some more people show interest.

@celebes: Indeed cheaper than I've found, however I doubt anyone would be willing to buy that amount. Though if it takes $400 to get it done, I'd be up for it, then again I'd probably give a kidney. 5-10mg (~$150-$250) p.p. sounds more reasonable to me, until effects are known, which would be 50-100 days. A single dose should be enough to determine efficacy though, from what I read. I'm sure many of us would buy a lifetime supply once efficacy is confirmed.

@KieranA001: As for when.. that depends on whether we can find someone who is able and willing to coordinate the buy, as well as whether the supplier would have it in stock or has to synthesize it from scratch.

[addx]

JDTic is an experimental drug with AFAIK only one human trial which was halted due to heart arrythmia in a subset of patients. Other than that there so no report of human use except the one I found on some forum which is somewhere in this thread.

There has to have been a toxicity study in order to begin trials on humans so toxicity should not be a problem. Sideeffects however are infact unknown. I can't really predict any sideeffects except the heart issues.

The only other sideeffect I could presume would be impaired fear context recognition and impaired fear context learning which is infact the effect most of us are after but we can't really predict how far this will take us, maybe too far, it's all about the dosage then as well I guess.

Disabling fear response completely would probably not be a wise idea. This doesn't mean you'd lose fear, it means you'd lose ability to "initiate fear response" meaning you'd be unable to manifest anything other than immediate panic/aggression/whatever innate response - you'd be unable to asses, ponder and learn how to avoid the fear - this is a function of the fear response. You'd be unable to workout a threat avoiding strategy which is what the fear response is for.

What most of us have are too much fear. We're engaged in fear response all the time. Presence of other people, even friendly people invokes a fear reponse in people who would benefit from JDTic IMO. This is too sensitive and causes the person to be constantly in some kind of an unrelexad 'pondering how to avoid the fear of shame or abuse or whatever our childhood did to us' towards other people. This is the fear response trying to workout a threat avoiding strategy. People who see all other people as threats(subconsciously), people who are shy, timid, afraid to self-assert, anxious around people, even elated are actually either pondering or working out how to avoid threats or compusively avoiding them by "performing" and looking for validation of pacifism by others accepting the performance.

This is what I think JDTic should resolve.

[celebes]

I doubt anyone would be willing to buy that amount.

If the lab is only willing to synthesize a gram at a time, then that's what we'll have to pay for.

[penisbreath]

socialpiranha (or anyone else): can you speculate if kappa-antagonism would be helpful for OCD?

I've read that kappa-agonists accelerate OCD pathogenesis in a scientific model .. and it seems to be promising in compulsive drug-seeking .. but isn't the net-effect pro-dopaminergic?

and yes, it would have to be one gram to synthesize with scratch -- and, as formergenius mentioned, it'd probably have to be third-party tested if it's coming from China

[socialpiranha]

yeah the answer to that question is totally up to you...in my case i've come to accept that it is slightly entitled but it's not a bad thing, it's the type of entitlement that changes the world for the better. i prefer the word determination or something similar

Yeah, there is a determination involved, absolutely. I can't quite justify as changing the world for the better, since I'm not sure how my happiness would benefit others in any concrete way .. unless I guess you mean the general attitude of being determined and driven?

I suppose my problem is difficulty hearing 'no', accepting less-than-ideal solutions etc. With my last psychiatrist, we had a good relationship so I was more willing to try stuff I was initially against like the atypicals and so on. At this point, and after all this time, I get the sense I know what a mood-stabilizer or SSRI will feel like and don't have to exhaust the arsenal.

I guess there's a lot of OCD-related guilt there.. guilt that my behavior is entitled, if standard treatments are good enough for others why not me? and so on.

Yeah i just mean that "not settling for what everyone else does" thing is the reason the world progresses for the better so don't feel guilty about having that attitude.

[socialpiranha]

socialpiranha (or anyone else): can you speculate if kappa-antagonism would be helpful for OCD?

I've read that kappa-agonists accelerate OCD pathogenesis in a scientific model .. and it seems to be promising in compulsive drug-seeking .. but isn't the net-effect pro-dopaminergic?

and yes, it would have to be one gram to synthesize with scratch -- and, as formergenius mentioned, it'd probably have to be third-party tested if it's coming from China

Pro dopaminergic isn't necessarily bad for ocd, if that's what you mean, it is only pro dopaminergic in a very specific part of the brain which i don't believe is heavily implicated in ocd. Ocd is more of a problem with serotonin.... incidentally i recently tested coluracetam which i think would be excellent for ocd.

I think i would rather not facilitate it now that its not such a desperate pursuit for me, but i think what needs to happen is we need to find someone who is capable of ordering from medchem or sigma or one of the more reputable sites.

[penisbreath]

Pro dopaminergic isn't necessarily bad for ocd, if that's what you mean, it is only pro dopaminergic in a very specific part of the brain which i don't believe is heavily implicated in ocd. Ocd is more of a problem with serotonin.... incidentally i recently tested coluracetam which i think would be excellent for ocd.

Ah okay, I thought I read it increases dopamine release in the nucleus accumbens .. which I thought was implicated in OCD?

Do you suffer from OCD? I got the impression you did, but maybe I'm mistaken.

[socialpiranha]

not really typical or severe ocd...but the coluracetam does help with those symptoms...but yeah your right it looks like the nucleus accumbens is implicated in ocd. i think i knew that but my memory is soo bad...it stands to reason because ibogaine and salvia both lock me into thought loops and suboxone seemed to do the opposite. I just read deep brain stimulation of the nucleus accumbens has been shown to help ocd. It's funny a major aspect of my ibogaine and salvia trips were very ritualistic in nature...i found myself engaged in various ritualistic poses and movements ...with both drugs i felt as if i was at the deepest depth of submission and helplessness, maybe the kappa system creates feelings in a spectrum from freedom and power to sumbission and helplessness. I find my ocd symptoms are never a problem until i am totally down and out.

[penisbreath]

Wait, so ibogaine and salvia are kappa agonists right? But are you sure it was the kappa antagonism of Suboxone that helped, and not the mu-agonism?

From a simplistic perspective, I thought kappa antagonism helped regulate the reward-system and that improved hedonic tone could increase obsessions/compulsions, but who knows .. it's too hard to read right now with akathisia anyway, but I found this which suggests low activity in the nucleus accumbens, particularly in contamination phobias: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21272861 .. which is interesting, because I thought high dopamine in the Nacc was implicated in OCD .. but maybe it's just disordered dopamine, and a kappa-antagonist could normalize it?

Then again, dexamphetamine is recommended as monotherapy for OCD and increases dopamine in the Nacc while doing other stuff like modulating glutamate.

My biggest problem, other than the obsessions, is the intense sense of fear that accompanies them.. the overwhelming freefloating anxiety makes even walking up the road to the store a tremendous battle; I am plagued by a constant sensation that something awful is going to happen 24/7 and it *feels* real. I know what reduced fear feels like because on e.g. stimulants the obsessions are still there, but suddenly they don't stress me/phase me so much and I can face them. But no medication has really touched the core hypervigilance and fear, even SSRIs. I'm hoping that even if JDTic doesn't help the obsessions very much, it could remove the phobia and physical restrictions on my life.

I also have a lot of shitty personality-related compulsions/addiction .. like compulsively doing stuff to get attention all the time, even in subtle ways, to fill my inner 'emptiness'. I'm not sure whether they come from .. some interplay between ADD, narcissism and that dysthmic/schizoid-emptiness that has never let me feel close to people. I hope the JDTic can influence that too.

Oh -- and when I say JDTic, I'm just using that as easy shorthand for kappa-antagonism. Since I'm in a pretty desperate situation, I'm going to be buying Suboxone and combining it with LDN a la celebes to see if kappa-antagonism is a worthwhile road for me to go down.

Edited by lucky.pierre, 04 December 2013 - 03:07 AM.

[penisbreath]

At least it won't make you psychotic:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17049114

[penisbreath]

This is interesting:

These data suggest that although KOR antagonists may be able to reverse reductions in DA caused by increased KOR tone, they have a limited ability to enhance DA function to the degree that would make the drugs rewarding. In addition, these results suggest that KOR antagonists would not be likely to produce mania-like states, a problem seen with stimulants and, sometimes, with standard antidepressants.

[Here_Now]

List of people who have expressed interest in the group buy so far:
socialpiranha
lourdaud
Cosma
lucky.pierre
lammas2
JustAMan
hzwe
celebes
LetMusicRule
Strangelove
uralsky
meatsauce
addx
KieranA001
formergenius (myself)

and perhaps Here_Now judging from this post.

So that's 15-16 people.. How many people are we aiming for here?

Indeed, I am quite interested. However, this substance is experimental. I am not sure that I could justify a $400 experiment, at least at the moment. For me, the cost would need to be quite a bit lower.

[Cosma]

Not sure it's possible for us to get it as of now (believe me i tried), although i'm still interested if the price is somewhat reasonable...

[addx]

stumbled upon a study for those who wanna play with bupe

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10742642

here's a patent claim for use of kappa antagonism for dissociation

all kappa antagonist types are listed with their formulas

http://patents.justi.../patent/8063059

[Reformed-Redan]

I have a feeling your right to an extent but to what extent is the question. i'm sure there will be side effects i'm less sure about withdrawal because the kappa receptor is so different than the mu. Also both antagonists and agonists of the kappa receptor have been shown to attenuate withdrawal and addiction, so any homeostatic actions may not be as "heinous" as mu up/down regulation.

Trialling it is not for the faint of heart but for those of us who are willing to be the guinea pigs , the possibility of total remission of anxiety/depression/ocd/addiction is well worth the risk.

If there were another drug available online which hadn't been thoroughly pioneered i would be all over it.

Bpap is in the works (yadayada et al) but if itenhances natural release it would stand to reason it could just exacerbate already abnormal function

7,8 dihydroxyflavone looks promising in animals but anecdotal reports are less impressive

I think you guys are really playing with fire here. I've been through two psychotic breaks from self experimentation. The second one not so severe, just paranoia and delusions. However, JDTiC is another animal. I mean you will literally feel like you are dying after your opiod receptors recover. As for BPAP, I'm really pleased with the results. Nothing compares with it. Just makes life seem more fun. 7,8-dihydroxyflavone is in the works and 1kg will be ready in a month for testing. Just please be careful with this beast.

[lammas2]

However, JDTiC is another animal. I mean you will literally feel like you are dying after your opiod receptors recover.

I this just a guess or can you provide a source for this? Don't you think that a smooth transformation to your old self is also a possibility after the receptors gradually recover?

[celebes]

However, JDTiC is another animal. I mean you will literally feel like you are dying after your opiod receptors recover.

I this just a guess or can you provide a source for this? Don't you think that a smooth transformation to your old self is also a possibility after the receptors gradually recover?

There is no reason at all to think it will 'feel like dying'.

Conceivably, there might not even be a gradual return. If the factors that upregulated kappa in the first place aren't at play anymore, the receptor poisoning might just leave you in a more normal paradigm. And if it does happen again, just take a top-up dose. A beautiful mechanism, if it works out like that.

[hzwe]

I noticed there is also interest in JDtic at socialanxietysupport.com. That may be a way to get more people for the groupbuy. Please comment.

[formergenius]

I noticed there is also interest in JDtic at socialanxietysupport.com. That may be a way to get more people for the groupbuy. Please comment.

I've already informed the HPPD community, hoping to attract more people. I think it would be a good idea to give word to your SA community Possibly it might be a good idea to inform the DP community, but IME they're not to fond of experimentation.

Edited by formergenius, 09 December 2013 - 01:19 PM.

[KieranA001]

Anymore info about JDTic, is it still happening ? I'm really eager to try this stuff out!! I hope you don't get any withdrawals though, that would suck really bad. Their is another forum over at dpselfhelp.com if you want me to tell them about it ? It might help depersonalization if they remove the fear they have, maybe.

[formergenius]

I think that kappa antagonists stand the best chance at abolishing DP and other dissociative disorders. Actually that's the primary reason why I want to use it. I'd say go ahead and inform DPSH.. I didn't because I'm not too sure how fond they would be of 'advertising' a research chemical on their site, but of all people, people with DP should be the most interested in this stuff.

Edited by formergenius, 10 December 2013 - 02:18 PM.

[KieranA001]

I think that kappa antagonists stand the best chance at abolishing DP and other dissociative disorders. Actually that's the primary reason why I want to use it. I'd say go ahead and inform DPSH.. I didn't because I'm not too sure how fond they would be of 'advertising' a research chemical on their site, but of all people, people with DP should be the most interested in this stuff.

Thanks, I'll let them know. You will get the odd person who will disagree with it although it's still worth posting. Some on there only agree with trying to fix DP / DR without medication.

I just posed it anyway, I hope it's right. If anything needs changing then let me know or you could write a little bit to support it.

http://www.dpselfhel...nterest-needed/

Edited by KieranA001, 10 December 2013 - 03:14 PM.

[KieranA001]

Has anyone had any experience with Flesinoxan? Just wondering if it might be of any use.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Flesinoxan

[KieranA001]

Also, could JDTic cause Olney's Lesions ?

[formergenius]

Thanks for opening that thread.
What leads you to suspect that it may lead to Olney's Lesions? I have seen no evidence indicating that JDTic may do so..