118 replies to this topic

[Babychris]

By the way I have this feeling in the neck that you call "tight neck" or "stiffness" that could be an overload of ACH, but I don't take Choline, but I was on the CILTEP stack (which UpRegulate the ACH receptors) and took 3-4 days ago 8mg of galantamine.
I think that I'm very sensitive to choline and I'm easily overwhelmed by it. I don't know, I have a very important exam in january and I don't know what to do..

[Geoffrey]

In my experience, sunifiram chews through choline, and I need a lot more choline with it than I've had to take with other nootropics in order to avoid the typical racetam (or raceram) headache. This may just be a function of the strength of suni compared to other nootropics (stronger even than noopept). It's sometimes tricky to get the dosing of choline right, because sometimes it seems as if too much choline has similar side effects to too little choline (pain in back of head, stiff neck, poor posture....). In general, though, a simple choline source like bitartrate seems to work better for me than the more expensive direct-brain-acting ones, perhaps because with bitartrate my brain can take what it needs from the supply in the blood rather than having the choline penetrate the BBB in an uncontrolled fashion as with CDP choline or some of the others. Though if you need a fast-acting boost, the latter is good.

[hfritz]

By the way I have this feeling in the neck that you call "tight neck" or "stiffness" that could be an overload of ACH, but I don't take Choline, but I was on the CILTEP stack (which UpRegulate the ACH receptors) and took 3-4 days ago 8mg of galantamine.
I think that I'm very sensitive to choline and I'm easily overwhelmed by it. I don't know, I have a very important exam in january and I don't know what to do..

I get that too glad to see I'm not the only one.

[holdorfold]

Took 10mg Sunifiram today. Colours were brighter with a subtle tunnel vision without any particular drive to focus on anything specific. I had a slight headache on the right side of my head as it was kicking in.

An hour later had two bottles of cider and noticed neon lights were more vivid and interesting to look at. The colour blue stood out and everything had a cyber-punk feel.

While playing pool I had a heart palpatation, or my heart thumped suddenly hard in my chest for no apparent reason. The effects of the sunifiram seemed to wear off quickly.

[Geoffrey]

I've not had heart palpitations while taking sunifiram, but I have had sudden onsets of flushing, sweating and, occasionally, hot anger at things which would normally only irritate me. I noticed this more at the beginning, and do not experience this now with regular(-sh) dosing. With the number of reports of hot flushes, I suspect sunifiram is having hormonal effects, at least until the body learns to compensate for changes in levels (homeostasis).

[dimensio]

http://www.longecity...2500-sunifiram/

^^above thread isochroma goes into detail of sunifiram's method of action, worth a look. Makes sense why my body flipped out on me with ritalin and it made me feel invincible.He basically(very basically) states that sunifiram increases the amplification of GABA receptors without actually stimulating them, which make stimilants tons more powerful and potentially much more dangerous to your neurons. Think of over amplifying a guitar amp to a speaker that cant handle it. Without stimulants, it's fine. He goes into way more detail if you're interested.

Personally I have been on a ~30mg suni w/ 00 pill of centrophenoxine 2xDay regimen for about a month now, and I have yet to take ritalin(still getting things done, I can definitely focus better). I have found that old memories are starting to come back, and I am operating at a high mental level. I feel like my brain went back to working like it did 15 years ago.

[Climactic]

...Makes sense why my body flipped out on me with ritalin and it made me feel invincible.He basically(very basically) states that sunifiram increases the amplification of GABA receptors without actually stimulating them, which make stimilants tons more powerful and potentially much more dangerous to your neurons. Think of over amplifying a guitar amp to a speaker that cant handle it. Without stimulants, it's fine. He goes into way more detail if you're interested.

Personally I have been on a ~30mg suni w/ 00 pill of centrophenoxine 2xDay regimen for about a month now, and I have yet to take ritalin...

Ritalin, better stated as methylphenidate, is a psychostimulant. Although it is known for ADHD, it is also suggested to be useful for narcolepsy and lethargy. As such, it seems unwise to ever take it with sunifiram.

Edited by Climactic, 31 October 2013 - 03:30 AM.

[dimensio]

CLimatic, what would I have ever done without your thoughtful insight? If you go back in the thread a little bit, I have a detailed post about just how bad it really is to take the two together. So no shit it is a bad idea.

My point of previous post to give some insight to these guys why it is a bad idea, and referencing someone who really knows what they are talking about. Also, the part where I say I have yet to take ritalin, was to infer that sunifiram is working as I had hoped as a ritalin replacement....if you had read the previous post I put, you would have caught that.

[xsiv1]

If Sunifirams increases the amplification of GABA receptors without any agonist effect, what would it be like when combined with a gabaergic of some sort like Picamilon?

Because of climactic's warnings, I've yet to crack open my supply simply because I'm taking some sort of stimulant on a nearly daily basis. I'll find when the time is right..I can't see it expiring any time soon.

[Climactic]

http://www.longecity...2500-sunifiram/

^^above thread isochroma goes into detail of sunifiram's method of action, worth a look. Makes sense why my body flipped out on me with ritalin and it made me feel invincible.He basically(very basically) states that sunifiram increases the amplification of GABA receptors without actually stimulating them, which make stimilants tons more powerful and potentially much more dangerous to your neurons. Think of over amplifying a guitar amp to a speaker that cant handle it. Without stimulants, it's fine. He goes into way more detail if you're interested.

Sunifiram affects the activity of NMDA, AMPA, and acetylcholine receptors, but not GABA receptors afaik. As such, I cannot validate your claim above. The 2006 article "Pharmacological characterization of DM232 (unifiram) and DM235 (sunifiram), new potent cognition enhancers" shows that only unifiram affected hippocampal amplitude, and even then this has nothing to do with GABA. Even so, in the spirit of what you said, Isochroma has said that sunifiram works like a PAM (positive allosteric modulator). Any NMDAr PAM would make stimulants more dangerous to the neurons.

[Geoffrey]

I'm currently cycling one day on sunifiram (5mg x 2) and one day on aniracetam. Both taken with citicoline. This combo seems to take away the negatives I had previously experienced with aniracetam (lethargy, extreme tiredness). I'm hoping this will work against the tolerance that builds up with suni on its own when taken daily (followed by a day of listlessness when withdrawing). I sometimes also use a small amount (quarter of a pill) of armodafinil after lunch.

But the real advantage I'm finding of this regimen is that it seems to be anti-inflammatory. Aniracetam is known to have an immune modulating function, and I believe sunifiram has direct anti-inflammatory effects (I read this somewhere, but can't remember where now). I used to have to take ibuprofen regularly for an idiopathic possibly auto-immune inflammation (fully investigated medically), but with this combo I almost never seem to need the ibuprofen. Could it be related to hormonal effects of sunifiram? Remember the increased sex drive reported on the first page of this thread, both by men and women. Also the flushing and thermogenesis some have reported (the latter definitely something I experience too).

[Climactic]

I believe sunifiram has direct anti-inflammatory effects (I read this somewhere, but can't remember where now). I used to have to take ibuprofen regularly for an idiopathic possibly auto-immune inflammation (fully investigated medically), but with this combo I almost never seem to need the ibuprofen. Could it be related to hormonal effects of sunifiram? Remember the increased sex drive reported on the first page of this thread, both by men and women. Also the flushing and thermogenesis some have reported (the latter definitely something I experience too).

I have read all the sunifiram research, and nowhere do I recall reading any anti-inflammatory effect. If anything, its interaction has caused persistent neuroinflammation for me.

[rc897]

Just got some and been taking for the last 2 days- after I found this post....

I don't like it. Its so bad. willing to take for another week but is there a positive after a couple days?

Not taking anything else (drugs/herb, other noots) while on this or have any past issues with mental health. 6mg a day weighed accurately.

I am finding mild tinnitus and slight depression- sleeping after work, totally unmotivated and a very real feeling everything I am doing is wasted. Not a great place to be in.
Feels like someone dropped me off at a country cross road, and I don't have a name or identity or plan and certainly no devil to make a bargain with.
All that without a "freeing" feeling or a sense of possibility that no baggage could accompany. Almost like a destruction of the ID- if you are into that Freudian thing. Actually listened to The Cure last night- that's how bad.

Normally I am very great on;

Aniracetam 750mg x2 (morning/late afternoon)
Sulbutiamine 250mg x2
PQQ & Coq10 20/100mg x1

Noopept- 12mg day on 1 month off 1 month.

Thought sunifiram could replace the noopept in the off month as I look forward to it.

Cutting dose to 4mg, maybe its the same as when I was doing 350mg of sulbutiamine and 14mg of noopept for me, more is not better.

Edited by rc897, 19 November 2013 - 08:08 PM.

[Geoffrey]

I have read all the sunifiram research, and nowhere do I recall reading any anti-inflammatory effect. If anything, its interaction has caused persistent neuroinflammation for me.

You're right, I got confused with citicoline which does have known anti-inflammatory effects according to Wikipedia: "[Citicoline] also prevents excessive inflammatory response in the brain by inhibiting the release of free fatty acids and decreasing blood–brain barrier breakdown". As I am taking suni with citicoline, the anti-inflammatory response is probably due to the latter, though the steroid-like effects of suni -- I mean the effects it seems to have on my hormonal system -- may have something to do with it too. I should add that ibuprofen produces significant thermogenesis in me, and so does sunifiram (even when I take it without choline). I do not know if the thermogenesis is produced by the same mechanism or pathway in both drugs.

Edited by Geoffrey, 20 November 2013 - 06:12 AM.

[theconomist]

I don't get any side effects from sunifiram. I took 10mg for a month without feeling much improvement (I don't really tend to ''feel'' nootropics, I already am functioning at near optimal brain capacity, the nootropics are just the cherry on top). Stack consisted of alpha-gpc and noopept (30-100mg/day). I bought another 300mg, been taking 20mg per day with 2g of oxiracetam and 30mg of noopept, it's much better with the oxi, I feel slightly more in the zone.

But NO sides whatsoever.

[Climactic]

I don't get any side effects from sunifiram.

The problem with sunifiram is that you can expect serious side effects once you take it with other LTP/glutamatergic/glycine agents, and there are many of them. In contrast, racetams and noopept seem to play well if I may say so.

[Geoffrey]

I bought another 300mg, been taking 20mg per day with 2g of oxiracetam and 30mg of noopept, it's much better with the oxi, I feel slightly more in the zone.
But NO sides whatsoever.

Those are quite high doses, but it's interesting that you have found oxiracetam to stack well with sunifiram. Several people have reported this. Your lack of side-effects from sunifiram is probably due to your use of a high-quality choline source with it. A lot of the reports of headaches (other than Climactic's) seem to have resolved with proper choline administration, and sunifiram seems to demand a lot of choline.

[dimensio]

http://www.longecity...2500-sunifiram/

^^above thread isochroma goes into detail of sunifiram's method of action, worth a look. Makes sense why my body flipped out on me with ritalin and it made me feel invincible.He basically(very basically) states that sunifiram increases the amplification of GABA receptors without actually stimulating them, which make stimilants tons more powerful and potentially much more dangerous to your neurons. Think of over amplifying a guitar amp to a speaker that cant handle it. Without stimulants, it's fine. He goes into way more detail if you're interested.

Sunifiram affects the activity of NMDA, AMPA, and acetylcholine receptors, but not GABA receptors afaik. As such, I cannot validate your claim above. The 2006 article "Pharmacological characterization of DM232 (unifiram) and DM235 (sunifiram), new potent cognition enhancers" shows that only unifiram affected hippocampal amplitude, and even then this has nothing to do with GABA. Even so, in the spirit of what you said, Isochroma has said that sunifiram works like a PAM (positive allosteric modulator). Any NMDAr PAM would make stimulants more dangerous to the neurons.

You are absolutly correct Climax, I have no idea why I put GABA in there. I stand corrected.

[andrea23]

I posted 3-4 months ago that i had a terrible anxiety/depression with sunifiram, i didn't know that is dangerous mixing it with stimolants and probably drinking coffee and energy drinks help creating this condition, an user of another forum had problems very similar to mine but with piracetam instead sunifiram:

http://www.drugs-for...ad.php?t=223927

a person in this thread advice to taking caffeine + l theanine to reverse the problem because block the glutamate receptor, do you know other supplements/drugs that could help? thanks

[Hansen213]

Forgive me this noob question, but since it is not tested on humans, isn´t it dangerous to take it? I mean, of course you can study the side effects of others, but these are all short term, so even if you collect all the experienceres of others, you still don´t know about its side effects in the mid- or longterm, or am I missing something?

[theconomist]

Forgive me this noob question, but since it is not tested on humans, isn´t it dangerous to take it? I mean, of course you can study the side effects of others, but these are all short term, so even if you collect all the experienceres of others, you still don´t know about its side effects in the mid- or longterm, or am I missing something?

We are using ourselves as guinea pigs unfortunately. We might regret it obviously but it's a risk we're willing to take I guess.

[knockout_mice]

I think it would be wise to combine sunifiram with neuroprotective agents to minimalize the possible NMDAR mediated excitotoxicity.

One candidate for this purpose is Memantine, which is an uncompetitve NMDAR antagonist at the magnesium binding site.

It blocks the Ca2+ influx by NMDAR activation when a pathologically high dose of glutamate is released, but when there's a lower concentration of glutamate, memantine can't bind to the channel and allows the normal ion influx. It doesn't disrupt so aggressively the NMDAR dependent neurotransmission like non-competitive antagonists (ketamine).

It seems a little bit counterproductive to use NMDAR antagonists with sunifiram, but Memantine doesn't make you dumb if you use only a small dose (e.g. 5mg).

Edited by mice, 14 December 2013 - 07:32 PM.

[brucebanner]

Background: Never done hard drugs, only Marijuana and Alcohol. No other mental issues, I hope.

 

Been trying this out this week.

 

Side-effects:

 

Headaches have stopped after ~3 days of use. Maybe it's because I am now using more CDP choline in the morning - ~450mg or more.

Twitching right eye - why is it only the right? - starts after I dose but tends to stop after 10 min.

Be VERY careful with tobacco, or nicotine in general, this really does increase its effect dramatically. At one point I felt my heart throbbing uncontrollably.

 

Dose:

10mg - Coluracetam - Sublingual

10mg - Sunifiram - Sublingual

 

Tried combining with usual 3g of Piracetam but didn't increase the effects in any way.

 

I'll detail the positives in another thread. Simply fantastic.

Edited by brucebanner, 11 July 2014 - 08:13 PM.

[Geoffrey]

Dose:
10mg - Coluracetam - Sublingual
10mg - Sunifiram - Sublingual

Is it the first time you have taken these either alone or together? Since you're co-administering, it will be difficult to tell whether any side-effects you experience are from the colu or the suni. Slightly unusual combination, but glad to hear it's having positive effects and that the headache was choline-regulated. Both of these are powerful racet®ams, so you might want to reduce the dosage a bit (maybe 5mg each) if you notice a build-up. l get a build-up of negative effects if I try to use either of these (separately) every day for more than a few weeks.

[Zajk]

Hi everyone,

 

For first time I took 15mg of sunifram on the 29.Dec. 2014. Every day i feel the little headache in the middle of my brain. I have used sunifiram only one no more. Do you have any idea how i can solve my problem ? I am sorry for my english. Thank you for your attention and help.

[Justchill]

low <5mg dosages never did anything noticable for me.

 

Tried about 30 mg's, I feel awake, concentrated, music sounds great; some tingles everywhere, defo raises blood pressure. Maybe a small moodlift..

 

Q : Could you combine this with GHB ?

[Geoffrey]

low <5mg dosages never did anything noticable for me.
 
Tried about 30 mg's, I feel awake, concentrated, music sounds great; some tingles everywhere, defo raises blood pressure. Maybe a small moodlift..

The thing is, most people find suni to be very potent, so I would always recommend people start with small doses and build up very gradually until they hit their optimum. I would never recommend anyone start with 30mg as for some people this could provide far too much stimulation. But it's good to hear you're having positive effects. I haven't taken sunifiram for a while, as I found fasoracetam to provide similar results without what I experienced as hormone-like effects of sunifiram. But I've still got some left, so might try it out again.

[noot_in_the_sky]

 

low <5mg dosages never did anything noticable for me.
 
Tried about 30 mg's, I feel awake, concentrated, music sounds great; some tingles everywhere, defo raises blood pressure. Maybe a small moodlift..

The thing is, most people find suni to be very potent, so I would always recommend people start with small doses and build up very gradually until they hit their optimum. I would never recommend anyone start with 30mg as for some people this could provide far too much stimulation. But it's good to hear you're having positive effects. I haven't taken sunifiram for a while, as I found fasoracetam to provide similar results without what I experienced as hormone-like effects of sunifiram. But I've still got some left, so might try it out again.

 

 

 

Can you elaborate what you mean by hormone-like effect?

 

 

I have try sunifiram & fasoracetam, and sunifiram seem better.  1 thing that Sunifiram did was that it allow me to visualiaze better.  The effects Fasoracetam didn't seem to appear after sometime of taking it.  

 

So how did these two compare for you?

 

The side effects I got from sunifiram:

Tinnitus

Aniracetam gave me migraine ( I try doing Sun during the wk & ani in the weekends)

After using Suni for several weeks, when I stop using Suni I felt like it was hard for me to remember & think.

[Geoffrey]

Can you elaborate what you mean by hormone-like effect?
I have try sunifiram & fasoracetam, and sunifiram seem better.  1 thing that Sunifiram did was that it allow me to visualiaze better.  The effects Fasoracetam didn't seem to appear after sometime of taking it.  
So how did these two compare for you?
The side effects I got from sunifiram:
Tinnitus
Aniracetam gave me migraine ( I try doing Sun during the wk & ani in the weekends)
After using Suni for several weeks, when I stop using Suni I felt like it was hard for me to remember & think.

Only just saw your post. With sunifiram, I usually get thermogenesis and a feeling similar to having taken a steroid. It also seemed to increase libido / sex drive. That's why I call it "hormonal", though it might actually be more a case of potentiating the effect of my body's natural hormones.

Regarding the difference with fasoracetam -- the effect of the latter is more subtle, smoother, more like a traditional racetam. Suni feels much more like you're pumping fuel into your brain. Suni does help me to get things done, though, especially anything requiring focus and logic. The problem I'm having more recently with faso is that if I take it more than a couple of days in a row, I get dry, itchy eyes lately. I don't get that with suni, but I don't think suni is good for long-term use because, as you say, you kind of become dependent on its amplification of neuronal signalling, and you can feel dull for a while when you come off it. Probably best to cycle it with a non-ampakine-like racetam on alternate days or so.

Edited by Geoffrey, 15 September 2016 - 03:05 PM.