118 replies to this topic

[health_nutty]

Only down side is the massive requirement for fish oils which I find cumbersome.

How much fish oil are you taking (total omega3's)? How do you know when you are not taking enough? do you get a headache?

[dogshitwebsite]

Why massive requirement for fish oil??

[owtsgmi]

I've upped my fish oil consumption a bit, plus I rediscovered choline. Alpha-GPC helps with the suni side effect (e.g. vacant brain feeling/headaches).

[Nobrainer]

Quote from Geoffrey (start post is missing quote button)

- like pramiracetam, sunifiram noticeably dampens the slight, very high-pitched tinnitus that is aggravated in me by piracetam, aniracetam, oxiracetam and noopept

I also get tinnitus from noopept, but otherwise it works well for me so I am looking for alternatives.

I know very little about brain chemistry, but after some searching I think it may be caused by dysregulated NMDA receptors, since noopept stimulates NMDA receptors.

A large number of tinnitus cases may be due to single or repeated incidents of excitotoxicity in the cochlea, which can be provoked e.g. by exposure to excessive noise, fluctuations in the blood supply to the cochlea or certain ototoxic medications. Excitotoxicity leads through the excessive release of the neurotransmitter glutamate to neural degeneration, which may in turn lead to tinnitus. While the exact mechanisms responsible for the appearance of tinnitus following excitotoxicity remain to be elucidated, it seems highly likely that some dysregulation of cochlear NMDA receptors lies at the heart of the problem. Accumulating evidence suggests that the “phantom sound” is generated by dysregulated NMDA receptors which produce aberrant firing of the auditory nerve.

How a jab in your ear could banish tinnitus for good

An injection that's administered into the eardrum could help relieve tinnitus. The jab contains a drug that blocks the brain chemical glutamate, which is thought to play a key role in the development of tinnitus.

Laboratory research showed that a single dose of the drug cured tinnitus in people with noise-induced hearing loss.

What effect has sunifiram on NMDA receptors and does that explain why Geoffrey reports decreased tinitus?

[Climactic]

What effect has sunifiram on NMDA receptors and does that explain why Geoffrey reports decreased tinitus?

The report of decreased tinnitus is quite unexpected because sunifiram stimulates the NMDA receptors. I would expect tinnitus to increase.

Novel nootropic drug sunifiram enhances hippocampal synaptic efficacy via glycine binding site of N-methyl-D-aspartate receptor.

...sunifiram stimulates the glycine-binding site of NMDAR...

Edited by Climactic, 13 June 2013 - 01:51 PM.

[golden1]

I think tinnitus causes are more complex than that or I would highly suspect myself to have it by now(see: benzo withdrawal, stimulants, noopept/sunifiriam/piracetam/aniracetam on stimulants, etc.) Sunifiram would, as far as I see it, potentiate NMDA receptors by binding to the glycine binding site which is required for them to open when glutamate binds. But I suppose it could be less effective than glycine or different in effect so that it alters the activity of the NMDA receptors in an way helpful to tinnitus. Also it may bind to the ampa receptors or modulate them, but I'm not sure if this is just an incorrect conclusion by the scientists and that it appeared to do that because it was actually @ the glycine site.

[dogshitwebsite]

You might want to check your bloodpressure if you get tinnitus from noopept.

[Climactic]

You might want to check your bloodpressure if you get tinnitus from noopept.

The tinnitus is not primarily from noopept, but it's possible that noopept made it worse. I can say this because I had been cycling noopept for well over six months without issue. The tinnitus occurred only when the pressure+pain side effects from the sunifiram cocktail became temporarily intensified due to caffeine. There is one other guy who is now having pressure+pain in same brain region and dizziness for well over a week, as a result of 30-40mg sunifiram.

My blood pressure and heart rate are both unchanged and normal.

Edited by Climactic, 14 June 2013 - 11:32 PM.

[Nobrainer]

My BP is normal, always around 120/66.
I am starting to doubt that noopept is the cause. I have also been using vasolilators: 3x daily picamilon (50mg) with either vinpocitine (20mg) or ginkgo (40mg). I was a few days without anything and took a single picamilon/ginkgo capsule and more than a day later my ears are still ringing much more than before. Also feeling of slightly painful pressure in ears like they are inflamed a bit and for some reason similar pain in bladder. In the past they have been ringing for weeks after nootropic use so it is hard to pinpoint the exact cause when the effect is not immediate.
I suffer from REM-sleep deprivation that causes vasoconstriction in the brain, giving me symptoms similar to orthostatic hypotension but the vasodilators actually decrease that.

[Geoffrey]

I can confirm, as I said in my OP, that most nootropics I have tried, with the exceptions of pramiracetam and sunifiram, induce mild, high-pitched tinnitus in me. The tinnitus may be due to increased blood flow in my inner ear, or may be due to stimulation of auditory receptor cells, but I also get stuffed-up ears after about four or five days of taking oxiracetam (the worst one for tinnitus). The stuffed-up ears are quite disorientating: speech becomes indistinct, and deep sounds boom unpleasantly, as if I have physical engorgement of the ear-drums (yet nothing viral or microbial causing it). I have had this several times after taking oxiracetam for longer periods, quite predictably, and it has caused me to have to stop taking it for more than a day or two at a time. Choline administration seems to exacerbate it. Sunifiram, however, produces an immediate dampening of lingering nootropic-induced tinnitus, and allows me to take noopept without experiencing the tinnitus. If i do co-administer noopept, the return of tinnitus after a few hours is a reliable clock to me to take another dose of sunifiram.

However, I knew sunifiram would end up being "too good to be true". The PKCα cancer scare thing will probably put an end to my being able to use sunifiram on an on-going basis, though I figure occasional use for specific needs such as public speaking or staying fresh for some particularly demanding task should be OK.

Edited by Geoffrey, 19 June 2013 - 03:36 PM.

[Geoffrey]

I've had about a week-and-a-half's "withdrawal" from sunifiram (and all other nootropics except ALCAR once every other day), to see if I would have withdrawals symptoms and then to see whether sunifiram would still have the same positive effects second time round. Withdrawal symptoms were noticeable but mild: sense of deflation and onset of lethargy over a couple of days. The funny thing was that every morning for over a week I'd wake up with the feeling I was still on sunifiram -- sense of pooling of blood in my head, enhanced vision/brightness and random memories popping up all over the place. At random times during the day, I'd also get these sensations coming over me in waves. I don't know if this is because suni is bio accumulative and it was coming out of tissues where it had accumulated, or whether these are effects caused by up-or-down regulation of receptors which had reached homeostasis on sunifiram and were thrown out of homeostasis again once I withdrew. I've had this effect before with the -racetams, and the feeling is very similar indeed though possibly more intense and longer-lasting with suni than with any of the other racetams. This morning I re-dosed half a scoop, and although at first I noticed the stimulation caused by suni and mild euphoria for about thirty minutes, this was followed by fatigue and lethargy for most of the rest of the day. I've had this once before on restarting suni after a shorter break -- it wasn't till the next day that I felt any positive effects at all. I'll report back tomorrow to see if it improves after a renewed dose in the morning.

Edited by Geoffrey, 07 July 2013 - 05:53 PM.

[Geoffrey]

Apologies for cross posting, but I said I'd report back here, but ended up writing this on the other (mega-) sunifiram thread. For followup reasons I'm copying the relevant bit here:

I am back on it now. The first day back I took one [oops, seems it was half] microscoop, unheaped and unpacked, I felt great at first, but then I began to feel lethargic and got brain fog for the rest of the day. The second day I took it at night before going to sleep, and then felt pleasantly wakeful all the next day. Following that, I have dissolved one microscoop, in a bottle of water, and take sips of it during the day. I can better control the point where it feels "too much" that way. For the past three days I have been taking about a half of the bottle per day, so about 2-3mg I would guess. Even so it seems accumulative at this dose, and I am taking the weekend off to rebalance.

Sunifiram seems very similar to racetams in so many of its effects. Bright lights, increased clarity, need for choline co-administration, plus a cumulative effect which makes dosing a bit complicated. One very good effect is on mood, and I'm still noticing the positive effects here several weeks into using it. Another is that if I want total wakefulness, taking 37.5mg r-modafinil (quarter of a tablet) while on sunifiram is very powerful, much more so than r-modafinil on its own. This dose can easily stop me sleeping many hours later. The effect is so strong that I would be scared (especially given Climactic's experiences) to take any more than that. I stress that this is on a very low dose of both. Finally, sunifiram on its own does not combine at all well with alcohol for me. I get drunk-like feelings (not pleasant ones) after half a glass of wine while on suni. In short, suni seems to potentiate lots of things, even things which are normally antagonistic, such as modafinil and alcohol. In order to drink socially on sunifiram, I have to take the aforementioned low dose of r-modafinil an hour or so before I go out, otherwise the effects of alcohol are too unpleasant.

[Kandy Wheeler]

Hi, I am new to all of this and had some questions. I ordered some Sunifiram at 20mg each and some noopept at 30mg each. the doses that everyone is talking about on here is a lot smaller yet I have only felt one side effect from the suni and that is the ear fog feeling. I even tried talking some of my oxiracetam with it and I felt nothing. I should add that I have been trying piracetam with choline also and im not feeling anything!!!!! this is really frustrating to me and I don't know if im doing something wrong or am I buying bad batches or what??? any insight would be most helpful and appreciated. feel free to pm me also!!!!

[Geoffrey]

Hi, I am new to all of this and had some questions. I ordered some Sunifiram at 20mg each and some noopept at 30mg each. the doses that everyone is talking about on here is a lot smaller yet I have only felt one side effect from the suni and that is the ear fog feeling. I even tried talking some of my oxiracetam with it and I felt nothing. I should add that I have been trying piracetam with choline also and im not feeling anything!!!!! this is really frustrating to me and I don't know if im doing something wrong or am I buying bad batches or what??? any insight would be most helpful and appreciated. feel free to pm me also!!!!

For a start that's way too much sunifiram, and probably too much noopept if you're taking them together. I'm surprised you have sunifiram in tablet form and formulated with four times the effective dose in humans as projected from mouse studies. Are you sure your source is reliable? Why would a company make it in pill form at such a high dose (and potentially an unsafe one if you read Climactic's posts, see above and in the "Sunifiram?" thread)? You need to take a quarter of a pill if it really does contain 20mg sunifiram. You can top up later in the day, but don't take 20mg in one go or you'll get negative effects (bell-shaped dose-response curve). I know isochroma takes a much higher dose and sings the praises of sunifiram at high doses, but he's been on extremely high doses of piracetam and other -racetams for a very long time and is probably desensitized to normal doses of any of these nootropics. Does noopept work for you on its own? With choline?

[dimensio]

Been taking sunifiram for about a week and a half now(taking weekends off). I take ~10mg with one 00 pill packed with centrophenoxine. I have been taking ani- and piracetam with cdp choline off-and-on(more on) for the better part of two years now. Dosages have varied but I usually take two 00 pills pi- and one 00 pill ani-

I also take ritalin(concerta 36mg ER) on a daily basis for my ADHD. For my testing of the sunifiram/centro combo, I ceased all other noots and my ritalin, save one day.

without ritalin:

positive
- amazing insight to myself
- attention to detail was almost astonishing(i could see the individual strands hair on someone 3ft away from me)
- ambitious attitude
- little to no anxiety
- recall definitely better(not just socially)

negative
- slight headache in temple
- if taken post 4PM, cannot sleep


With Ritalin:

positive
- most same effects but way way more pronouced.

negative
- shaking
- irregular heartbeat
- twitching(next day) in my left shoulder

I took the sunifiram without the ritalin for the better part of last week, then on saturday I had a lot of things to do so by habit i popped a ritalin. Bad idea, in retrospect, though at the time(and during all of the feelings) I never once was afraid or scared. THis should be noted, as I am very careful and weary about how my body reacts to different things, and while I was experiencing potentially dangerous symptoms, I had no "oh shit" pop up in my head. very odd.

Do be detailed here were my symptoms:

1. I was shaking sub-violently in both hands(i say this as you could see the shaking from across the room, but it was controllable)
2. I was completely energetic and ready to jump through a brick wall, not over, through.
3. I had a feeling of invincibility.
4. I was completely calm mentally, able to observe what my body was doing as if I wasn't experiencing it.
5. Complete disregard for normal social etiquette.
6. The next day I had many twitches going on around my body. Mostly in my left shoulder.

I will be not taking those two together ever again. When I was taking the sunifiram beforehand, I did not really feel stimulant effects(like coffee or my ritalin) so I didn't think the combo would have such a prominent effect. Anyways to anyone researching this stuff on here, DO NOT MIX WITH RITALIN.

Peace.

[Climactic]

- slight headache in temple

Thanks for the cautionary report. You reported slight headache in the temples. How long did this last? Did it permanently go away by itself, or did you take something (what and how much) that specifically made it go away?

For me, this kind of headache has been slight to severe, even after a month of the incident, pretty much everyday. My first prescribed drug to attempt to treat it (VPA) has failed, but I believe there are more suitable drugs for me to try.

Edited by Climactic, 31 July 2013 - 11:10 PM.

[dimensio]

- slight headache in temple

Thanks for the cautionary report. You reported slight headache in the temples. How long did this last? Did it permanently go away by itself, or did you take something (what and how much) that specifically made it go away?

For me, this kind of headache has been slight to severe, even after a month of the incident, pretty much everyday. My first prescribed drug to attempt to treat it (VPA) has failed, but I believe there are more suitable drugs for me to try.

You're welcome! For the headaches I let them ride out(i am a bit of a masochist), but one day it lasted too long, so I took some ibuprofen(it helped). Severity wasn't much worse than when I took too much piracetam without a choline source to back it. Last week is when I had the headaches(daily), but I have noticed this week they aren't apparent anymore. Not even slightly. They ranged from little spurts of pain to hours of steady irritation(day I took the Advil).

I will say, the effect of the suni has not really retracted too much. I am hoping that this might be the replacement for Ritalin for me. I hate taking that stuff but without it I am a mess, can't get anything done. I hope you can find something to help the headaches, months straight of head-temple-pain doesn't sound like much fun.

Edited by dimensio, 01 August 2013 - 04:26 AM.

[Tomas60]

I got sunifiram yesterday from nsn. Took first 2mg and after one hour another 2mg.
Although I did feel a slight mood increase and eagerness to do things the problem is that I felt at the same time that I was sick, like a little fever.
Didn't like that at all.
Has anybody else felt like this?
I'm afraid that if I increase dosage I'll feel more sick. I'm a skinny guy. 58 kg.
Is this something that will go away? Should I try with lower dose? Or do i need to stack it with something?
I appreciate your insight into this, thanks.

[Climactic]

I got sunifiram yesterday from nsn. Took first 2mg and after one hour another 2mg.
Although I did feel a slight mood increase and eagerness to do things the problem is that I felt at the same time that I was sick, like a little fever.
Didn't like that at all.
Has anybody else felt like this?
I'm afraid that if I increase dosage I'll feel more sick. I'm a skinny guy. 58 kg.
Is this something that will go away? Should I try with lower dose? Or do i need to stack it with something?
I appreciate your insight into this, thanks.

Yes, I have felt like this the last time I tried sunifiram, but only in the copresence of another agent. Were you taking anything that might have been hard on your kidneys or liver that day? For your safety, I suggest you not use sunifiram again. Have you had your routine urine and blood work done within the past year to confirm routine kidney and liver function? If mood and motivation is what you want, you don't need strong NMDAR agonist agent like sunifiram for it. A nicotine patch will do the job just fine if you use it right.

[Tomas60]

Thank you Climactic for your response. I go regularly to take blood samples, every 4 months.
Last time was about 3 weeks ago. I have never had problems with liver or kidneys.
My first and only nootropic was Noopept and took it for 6 months for the long time effects.
I got great benefits of it but became more irritated so I thought that it was time to take a break.
The only supplement i took was L-theanine (without my morning coffee).
I was thinking if I smoke some weed and try with just 1 or 2 mg to see what happens?

[Tomas60]

Thank you Climactic for your response. I go regularly to take blood samples, every 4 months.
Last time was about 3 weeks ago. I have never had problems with liver or kidneys.
My first and only nootropic was Noopept and took it for 6 months for the long time effects.
I got great benefits of it but became more irritated so I thought that it was time to take a break.
The only supplement i took was L-theanine (without my morning coffee).
I was thinking if I smoke some weed and try with just 1 or 2 mg to see what happens?

Edit: oh yes, 1000 mg Omega 3 Fish oil capsule.

[Climactic]

I was thinking if I smoke some weed and try with just 1 or 2 mg to see what happens?

I am not too proficient with the effects of marijuana, but I am pretty sure that you will cancel some of the neurological effects of sunifiram with marijuana, or also the reverse. It's up to you.

[Tomas60]

One last question please. Is nicotine an acetylcholine agonist? I was smoking all day. Could that be the reason? I can drop the weed in that case :-)

[Climactic]

One last question please. Is nicotine an acetylcholine agonist? I was smoking all day. Could that be the reason? I can drop the weed in that case :-)

Were you smoking ciggs or weed?

As I understand, nicotine mimics acetylcholine on some such receptors.

Afaik, the tar from smoke only weakly stresses the kidneys in the short term, so your situation doesn't add up for me still. Your best bet might be to try sunifiram after having not smoked anything for a couple of days if you can.

[Tomas60]

I was smoking cigarettes. Thank you very much for taking your time to answer this questions.

[Tomas60]

An update : it's not nicotine cause people are smoking e-cigs with suni. It must be the L-Glutamine I was taking 1gr/day before testing sunifiram. Is it a possibility, isn't it?

[xsiv1]

An update : it's not nicotine cause people are smoking e-cigs with suni. It must be the L-Glutamine I was taking 1gr/day before testing sunifiram. Is it a possibility, isn't it?

Of course L-Glutamine is a possibility. It can convert to glutamate and then Gaba I believe. Glutamic Acid and Suni would not be a good idea I'd think. Reason being...potential for glutamate excitotoxicity. http://articles.merc.../glutamine.aspx

Edited by xsiv1, 16 August 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[Tomas60]

Thanks for clearing this up for me. I'll have to wash out the glutamine before trying again.

[Tomas60]

Of course L-Glutamine is a possibility. It can convert to glutamate and then Gaba I believe. Glutamic Acid and Suni would not be a good idea I'd think. Reason being...potential for glutamate excitotoxicity. http://articles.merc.../glutamine.aspx

And this article says : studies of high intakes of glutamine have shown that concentrations of ammonia and glutamate are not much increased.

http://jn.nutrition....31/9/2556S.full

So you see why I'm confused...

[xsiv1]

Of course L-Glutamine is a possibility. It can convert to glutamate and then Gaba I believe. Glutamic Acid and Suni would not be a good idea I'd think. Reason being...potential for glutamate excitotoxicity. http://articles.merc.../glutamine.aspx

And this article says : studies of high intakes of glutamine have shown that concentrations of ammonia and glutamate are not much increased.

http://jn.nutrition....31/9/2556S.full

So you see why I'm confused...

Well, regardless, it still raised glutamate which it's known to do...the question really lies in what's the interaction between Suni and L-Glutamine? Perhaps it's the nicotine after all since the aforementioned study used 50–60 grams per day. That's a far cry from what you've been using.