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Does PKR inhibitor C16 could give photographic memory safely? Let's find out!

c16 photographic memory pkr safe inhibitor ultimate nootropic

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#1 Googoltarian

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 01:41 PM


There is a possibility to test C16 really soon, somebody obtained a small sample ;)

Attached File  C16 - Copy.jpg   190.55KB   199 downloads

But if it's to be done it should be well thought out because of this compound possible tremendous power. Original idea was to just give it to one forum member who has LAB RATS, but if there is a possibility that 5mg will be enough for a tryout involving more rats it could offer much more info. I'm just starting to assimilate available literature and I have very little spare time, so please throw some ideas on how to proceed.

EDIT:
Please answer with METHOD proposals based on literature you dig out, I will post/retrieve anything worth reading as we proceed!

Edited by Googoltarian, 30 May 2013 - 02:30 PM.

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#2 lostfalco

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 02:12 PM

I will do research in exchange for some C16 (if I determine it's safe). =) Deal?

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#3 Googoltarian

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 02:33 PM

I will do research in exchange for some C16 (if I determine it's safe). =) Deal?


Better safe than sorry. If we work out good protocol, I can assure you there will be more than enough of C16 for anyone willing to put up their rats for good cause - if you have a license for that ;)

#4 lostfalco

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 02:54 PM

Deal. Headed to library, will report back with preliminary findings tonight at 9pm pct.

pst

#5 brainslugged

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:01 PM

I haven't been following this substance, so I don't know the level of trials that have been done, but if no human trials have been conducted, I would at least test it on a dog first, and then wait a few days, and you know, make sure you don't awake one day to it being, you know, dead or severely retarded.

Good luck. Will have to look into this some more after I get back home today. Looking forward to your results.
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#6 YOLF

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:25 PM

Can you explain how this stuff is supposed to work?

#7 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:55 PM

Can you explain how this stuff is supposed to work?

I started a writeup on C16 the PKR inhibitor because of its amazing nootropic potential; but, this is just an unfinished rough draft (no time). The mechanism of action of C16 seems to be through GABAa alpha 5 inverse agonism or just a negative modulator with additional increased synaptic transmission through other mechanisms.

You can expand on it if you want:
Elucidating nootropic effects of C16 PKR-Inhibitor



I've been looking at what can be called the most potent nootropic that has been discovered.

The nootropic effects have been analized by the study, "Suppression of PKR Promotes Network Excitability and Enhanced Cognition by Interferon-γ-Mediated Disinhibition" made available by Cell Press.

In the study the authors discuss the nootropic effects of this compound through disinhibition of the GABA pathways,

Discussion

Our data reveal that the lack of a double-stranded RNA-activated protein kinase PKR, originally identified as a sensor of virus infection, unexpectedly leads to hyperexcitability in cortical and hippocampal networks. In addition, L-LTP and behavioral learning are enhanced in Pkr−/− mice or when PKR activity is pharmacologically blocked. The increased excitability in PKR-deficient mice is caused by IFN-γ-mediated disinhibition. Thus, PKR regulates network rhythmicity, synaptic plasticity, and memory storage by potentiating GABAergic synaptic transmission.

So, the authors' findings point at how PKRi causes IFN-γ-mediated disinhibition which in turn inhibits GABAergic synaptic transmission. GABAergic transmission at the hippocampus is responsible for attenuating network rythmicaity, synaptic plasticity, and memory storage (repeating the above).



GABAergic inhibition not only controls the efficacy and plasticity of excitatory synapses, but also promotes the synchronized firing of large assemblies of principal cells at certain preferred frequencies (Mann and Paulsen, 2007). Slow theta and faster gamma oscillations and ripples appear to be crucially involved in mnemonic processes (Buzsaki, 2006 and Maurer and McNaughton, 2007). Multiple lines of evidence support the idea that GABAergic control of synaptic plasticity is a key mechanism of memory storage (Mann and Paulsen, 2007 and Paulsen and Moser, 1998). First, reduced GABAergic-mediated inhibition facilitates the induction of LTP (Abraham et al., 1986, Davies et al., 1991 and Wigström and Gustafsson, 1983). Second, long-term disinhibition of a subset of CA1 pyramidal neurons correlates with the acquisition of spatial memory (Gusev and Alkon, 2001). Third, modest pharmacological reduction of GABAergic transmission enhances memory consolidation (Izquierdo and Medina, 1991 and McGaugh and Roozendaal, 2009). Finally, GABAergic neurons of the medial septum drive theta rhythmicity in the hippocampal network (Hangya et al., 2009).

The authors conclude that the mediation of GABA neurons at the hippocampal area by IFN-γ-mediated disinhibition causes the nootropic effects of C16 or a PKR-Inhibitor.



Our results provide new insight into the function of PKR in the adult brain and how the suppression of PKR promotes network hypersynchrony and enhances L-LTP and cognitive performance. We propose a model in which PKR regulates these processes by IFN-γ-mediated disinhibition. This model is consistent with the following observations. First, IFN-γ increases excitability (Figure 7B) and generates paroxysmal discharges in hippocampal slices by reducing GABA release at inhibitory synapses (Müller et al., 1993). Second, through a pseudoknot in its 5′UTR, IFN-γ mRNA locally activates PKR and eIF2α to inhibit its own translation, but not translation of other mRNAs (Ben-Asouli et al., 2002 and Cohen-Chalamish et al., 2009). Hence, Ifn-γ mRNA translation is enhanced when PKR is genetically or pharmacologically inhibited or when eIF2α phosphorylation is reduced (Ben-Asouli et al., 2002). Accordingly, the levels of IFN-γ were enhanced in the hippocampus (Figure 7A; and possibly also in the amygdala) from Pkr−/− mice. Third, in WT slices, PKRi increases neuronal excitability in a translation-dependent manner (Figures S3G and S5C). Fourth, like Pkr−/− mice, animals with constitutively reduced eIF2α phosphorylation (eIF2α+/S51A mice) showed facilitated L-LTP and LTM (Costa-Mattioli et al., 2007), reduced GABAergic synaptic transmission (Figures S6A and S6B), and EEG synchronous spike discharges (Figures S6C and S6D), supporting the notion that PKR, via the phosphorylation of eIF2α, regulates translation of Ifn-γ mRNA. Fifth, chemically mediated increase in eIF2α phosphorylation blocks L-LTP and LTM in the murine forebrain (Jiang et al., 2010). Sixth, Ifn-γ−/− mice are resistant to both virus- and kainic acid-induced limbic seizures (Getts et al., 2007). Finally, spatial memory is enhanced in transgenic mice overexpressing small amounts of IFN-γ (Baron et al., 2008). Thus, our observations show that PKR and IFN-γ—both crucial components of the antiviral and inflammatory response ( Farrar and Schreiber, 1993 and García et al., 2007) —play an important role in activity-dependent changes in synaptic strength and network rhythmicity in the adult brain.

So, it seems that C16 not only works on GABAa alpha 5 as an inverse agonist or negative modulation; but, also has other mechanisms of action that facilitate LTP formation and increased EEG synchronous spike charges. More later.

Edited by yadayada, 30 May 2013 - 04:57 PM.


#8 Googoltarian

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:01 PM

Can you explain how this stuff is supposed to work?


Let me answer with some quotes, and some articles found by googling around:

"For instance, when the authors assessed spatial memory through a test in which mice use visual cues for finding a hidden platform in a circular pool, they found that normal mice had to repeat the task multiple times over many days in order to remember the platform's location. By contrast, mice lacking PKR learned the task after only one training session."

Many times per Day vs 1 time. Jesus christ.

Suppression of PKR Promotes Network Excitability and Enhanced Cognition by Interferon-γ-Mediated Disinhibition

Abstract

The double-stranded RNA-activated protein kinase (PKR) was originally identified as a sensor of virus infection, but its function in the brain remains unknown. Here, we report that the lack of PKR enhances learning and memory in several behavioral tasks while increasing network excitability. In addition, loss of PKR increases the late phase of long-lasting synaptic potentiation (L-LTP) in hippocampal slices. These effects are caused by an interferon-γ (IFN-γ)-mediated selective reduction in GABAergic synaptic action. Together, our results reveal that PKR finely tunes the network activity that must be maintained while storing a given episode during learning. Because PKR activity is altered in several neurological disorders, this kinase presents a promising new target for the treatment of cognitive dysfunction. As a first step in this direction, we show that a selective PKR inhibitor replicates the Pkr(-/-) phenotype in WT mice, enhancing long-term memory storage and L-LTP.


Articles:

A chemical compound commonly used to inhibit PKR, {8-(imidazol-4-ylmethylene)-6H-azolidino[5,4-g] benzothiazol-7-one}, protects neurons by inhibiting cyclin-dependent kinasee
https://anonfiles.co...20d5c1edb55761a

Inhibitor of double stranded RNA-dependent protein kinase protects against cell damage induced by ER stress
https://anonfiles.co...52c24dbf7ba117a

Interaction of double-stranded RNA-dependent protein kinase (PKR) with the death receptor signaling pathway in amyloid beta (Abeta)-treated cells and in APPSLPS1 knock-in mice
https://anonfiles.co...e4c315c71c0e4dc

Prevention of the β-amyloid peptide-induced inflammatory process by inhibition of double-stranded RNA-dependent protein kinase in primary murine mixed co-cultures
https://anonfiles.co...fbd72edb673dc67

Small molecule inhibitors of the RNA-dependent protein kinase
https://anonfiles.co...cfe3350d814dfa9

Suppression of PKR Promotes Network Excitability and Enhanced Cognition by Interferon-γ-Mediated Disinhibition
https://anonfiles.co...4e2d9a6a587976b

The oxindole imidazole derivative C16 reduces in vivo brain PKR activation
https://anonfiles.co...2db07c177f3c385


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#9 JPC16

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:49 PM

I would like to obtain a sample of C16. Not to administer it to a living creature, but just to check it's stability at room temperature.
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#10 YOLF

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:50 PM

Can you explain how this stuff is supposed to work?

I started a writeup on C16 the PKR inhibitor because of its amazing nootropic potential; but, this is just an unfinished rough draft (no time). The mechanism of action of C16 seems to be through GABAa alpha 5 inverse agonism or just a negative modulator with additional increased synaptic transmission through other mechanisms.

You can expand on it if you want:
Elucidating nootropic effects of C16 PKR-Inhibitor



I've been looking at what can be called the most potent nootropic that has been discovered.

The nootropic effects have been analized by the study, "Suppression of PKR Promotes Network Excitability and Enhanced Cognition by Interferon-γ-Mediated Disinhibition" made available by Cell Press.

In the study the authors discuss the nootropic effects of this compound through disinhibition of the GABA pathways,

Discussion

Our data reveal that the lack of a double-stranded RNA-activated protein kinase PKR, originally identified as a sensor of virus infection, unexpectedly leads to hyperexcitability in cortical and hippocampal networks. In addition, L-LTP and behavioral learning are enhanced in Pkr−/− mice or when PKR activity is pharmacologically blocked. The increased excitability in PKR-deficient mice is caused by IFN-γ-mediated disinhibition. Thus, PKR regulates network rhythmicity, synaptic plasticity, and memory storage by potentiating GABAergic synaptic transmission.

So, the authors' findings point at how PKRi causes IFN-γ-mediated disinhibition which in turn inhibits GABAergic synaptic transmission. GABAergic transmission at the hippocampus is responsible for attenuating network rythmicaity, synaptic plasticity, and memory storage (repeating the above).



GABAergic inhibition not only controls the efficacy and plasticity of excitatory synapses, but also promotes the synchronized firing of large assemblies of principal cells at certain preferred frequencies (Mann and Paulsen, 2007). Slow theta and faster gamma oscillations and ripples appear to be crucially involved in mnemonic processes (Buzsaki, 2006 and Maurer and McNaughton, 2007). Multiple lines of evidence support the idea that GABAergic control of synaptic plasticity is a key mechanism of memory storage (Mann and Paulsen, 2007 and Paulsen and Moser, 1998). First, reduced GABAergic-mediated inhibition facilitates the induction of LTP (Abraham et al., 1986, Davies et al., 1991 and Wigström and Gustafsson, 1983). Second, long-term disinhibition of a subset of CA1 pyramidal neurons correlates with the acquisition of spatial memory (Gusev and Alkon, 2001). Third, modest pharmacological reduction of GABAergic transmission enhances memory consolidation (Izquierdo and Medina, 1991 and McGaugh and Roozendaal, 2009). Finally, GABAergic neurons of the medial septum drive theta rhythmicity in the hippocampal network (Hangya et al., 2009).

The authors conclude that the mediation of GABA neurons at the hippocampal area by IFN-γ-mediated disinhibition causes the nootropic effects of C16 or a PKR-Inhibitor.



Our results provide new insight into the function of PKR in the adult brain and how the suppression of PKR promotes network hypersynchrony and enhances L-LTP and cognitive performance. We propose a model in which PKR regulates these processes by IFN-γ-mediated disinhibition. This model is consistent with the following observations. First, IFN-γ increases excitability (Figure 7B) and generates paroxysmal discharges in hippocampal slices by reducing GABA release at inhibitory synapses (Müller et al., 1993). Second, through a pseudoknot in its 5′UTR, IFN-γ mRNA locally activates PKR and eIF2α to inhibit its own translation, but not translation of other mRNAs (Ben-Asouli et al., 2002 and Cohen-Chalamish et al., 2009). Hence, Ifn-γ mRNA translation is enhanced when PKR is genetically or pharmacologically inhibited or when eIF2α phosphorylation is reduced (Ben-Asouli et al., 2002). Accordingly, the levels of IFN-γ were enhanced in the hippocampus (Figure 7A; and possibly also in the amygdala) from Pkr−/− mice. Third, in WT slices, PKRi increases neuronal excitability in a translation-dependent manner (Figures S3G and S5C). Fourth, like Pkr−/− mice, animals with constitutively reduced eIF2α phosphorylation (eIF2α+/S51A mice) showed facilitated L-LTP and LTM (Costa-Mattioli et al., 2007), reduced GABAergic synaptic transmission (Figures S6A and S6B), and EEG synchronous spike discharges (Figures S6C and S6D), supporting the notion that PKR, via the phosphorylation of eIF2α, regulates translation of Ifn-γ mRNA. Fifth, chemically mediated increase in eIF2α phosphorylation blocks L-LTP and LTM in the murine forebrain (Jiang et al., 2010). Sixth, Ifn-γ−/− mice are resistant to both virus- and kainic acid-induced limbic seizures (Getts et al., 2007). Finally, spatial memory is enhanced in transgenic mice overexpressing small amounts of IFN-γ (Baron et al., 2008). Thus, our observations show that PKR and IFN-γ—both crucial components of the antiviral and inflammatory response ( Farrar and Schreiber, 1993 and García et al., 2007) —play an important role in activity-dependent changes in synaptic strength and network rhythmicity in the adult brain.

So, it seems that C16 not only works on GABAa alpha 5 as an inverse agonist or negative modulation; but, also has other mechanisms of action that facilitate LTP formation and increased EEG synchronous spike charges. More later.


Hmmm... So are there any indicators of safety whatsoever? This stuff sounds pretty exciting and may push me over the edge on trying nootropics again (DMAE gave me horrid headaches and the rest just looked like amphetamines to me).

#11 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 06:13 PM

Googletarian are you sending out samples?

#12 Googoltarian

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 06:28 PM

Googletarian are you sending out samples?


Yes, but only if we will come to a conclusion in terms of dosage, ROA and safety. And only to people who can treat their rat safely.

#13 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 06:41 PM

I might just wait for initial results from other members' research. The lethal dose for C16 is ultra low in rats.

Edited by yadayada, 30 May 2013 - 06:42 PM.


#14 JPC16

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:09 PM

I actually would like to get a sample so I can test it on myself (eventually).

I am planning to disslove 240 µg in DMSO and and put it into a capsule and swallow it. The inhibitor should pass the intestinal tract, as it also did in mice (ip injection).
But first I am testing it on a dog. I will use the same principal as discribed above but I will keep the DMSO (with the C16 dissolved in it) in a syringe and “inject” it in the back of the dog's mouth.

Quick explaination of my method:

Don't fixate on the math of the dosage. I will do it proper once I have the compound. I will use the least effective dosage needed for the mice and calculate the human equivalent dosage from that (the method is discribed in a ncbi article of which I don't know the link wright know, but I also think Scienceguy posted this on Longecity)
And then I will first use half of that dosage on myself. If no effects are seen (memory tests on Cambridge brain science) i will slowly increase the dosage until effects are observed or the max human dosage calculated.
I will use this principle aswell on the dog test but with unalterd “mice-dosages”. Because there are no formula's to calculate the mice/dog equivalent dosage. I also think the metabolism isn't that different between dogs and mice, meaning that the dosage doesn't have to be altered that much. But this after all doesn't matter since I will always start under the least effective dosage out of safety.

To test the memory of the dog, I will assess how fast it will associate a treat with a new sound.

I know what I just discribed is very far from a decent report. But i will make one after I used the compound and did the tests. I will also arrange 2 bloodtests for myself (before and after). If I can get the compound, than I am more than willing to try it out and report on back to everybody on Longecity.

#15 YOLF

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:12 PM

I might just wait for initial results from other members' research. The lethal dose for C16 is ultra low in rats.


Well if it works as they say, I guess we wouldn't have to worry about accidental overdose. What happens when the rats are overdosed?

#16 JPC16

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:16 PM

They died!

#17 YOLF

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:17 PM

They died!

hahaha but how did they die? That may be an indicator of possible side effects or safety issues.

#18 JPC16

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:21 PM

The LD50 is in this article: http://www.sciencedi...014579307008952

#19 JPC16

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:26 PM

I am sorry (I think it's not in there) but I found this:http://www.clearsynt...CS-AC-26721.pdf
LD50 rats 980 mg/kg

#20 YOLF

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:27 PM

I don't see anything mentioning LD50 in it. I'm accessing as a visitor rather than a scientist though, is there a copy on pubmed?

#21 Nattzor

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:37 PM

I don't see anything mentioning LD50 in it. I'm accessing as a visitor rather than a scientist though, is there a copy on pubmed?


http://i.imgur.com/xWHDi5L.png

The LD50 seems to be fairly high, except if you give it to your rabbit in the eye.

#22 YOLF

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:39 PM

So according to allometry, we're looking at 93g for an LD50 dosage in humans? That'd be quite a few tablets or a steak meal made of the stuff... Are you sure that's right? Yada was saying the LD50 is ultra low... Maybe I'm missing something?

Using this calculator:
http://home.fuse.net.../allometry.html
Weight 1: .15
Weight 2: 65

#23 JPC16

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:06 PM

I am sorry for the confusion but apparently the LD was in the first source I provided: http://www.sciencedi...014579307008952
"Injection of C16 at 335 μg/kg of body weight was shown to be lethal."
But I don't know why Clearsynth has other info about the lethal dosage?
Lethal dosages for humans are going to be smaller: less than 23.45 mg for a 70kg human

I am sorry for the confusion but apparently the LD was in the first source I provided: http://www.sciencedi...014579307008952
[font='Arial Unicode MS', ', ', 'Arial Unicode', ', Arial, ', 'URW Gothic L', ', Helvetica, Tahoma, sans-serif} ']"Injection of C16 at 335 μg/kg of body weight was shown to be lethal."[/font]

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][font='Times New Roman', serif]But I don't know why Clearsynth has other info about the lethal dosage?[/font][/font]
[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][font='Times New Roman', ', serif} ']Lethal dosages for humans are going to be smaller: less than 23.45 mg for a 70kg human[/font][/font]

#24 telight

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:07 PM

Here I have found the dose of 335ug/kg was lethal to rats. Although, the study also says that C16 DOES NOT activate the pathway that may lead to tumorigenesis.

Link:http://www.sciencedi...014579307008952

#25 JPC16

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:11 PM

I fucked up the lay out.
This is what I meant to say:

"Injection of C16 at 335 μg/kg of body weight was shown to be lethal."
But I don't know why Clearsynth has other info about the lethal dosage?
Lethal dosages for humans are going to be smaller: less than 23.45 mg for a 70kg human

#26 Googoltarian

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:15 PM

LINKS TO FULL VERSIONS OF ARTICLES ON TOPIC ARE POSTED EARLIER IN THIS THREAD!
http://www.longecity...post__p__590539

#27 Nattzor

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:16 PM

I fucked up the lay out.
This is what I meant to say:

"Injection of C16 at 335 μg/kg of body weight was shown to be lethal."
But I don't know why Clearsynth has other info about the lethal dosage?
Lethal dosages for humans are going to be smaller: less than 23.45 mg for a 70kg human


The difference is oral vs injection, I'm guessing the bioavailability isn't that high.

#28 JPC16

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:21 PM

The injections are actually "oral". The mice received ip injections which means it is injected into their stomach.
But i think it is probably impossible to overdose with 5 mg for a human.

#29 Googoltarian

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:28 PM

But i think it is probably impossible to overdose with 5 mg for a human.

5mg is well within possible borders of overdose, but it probably wont kill you.

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#30 Nattzor

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:41 PM

But i think it is probably impossible to overdose with 5 mg for a human.

5mg is well within possible borders of overdose, but it probably wont kill you.


Do you have any clue on why the LD50 seems to differ that much between the study and the synthesising paper?

Might also be interested in buying some, but not if the dose is less than 5 mg (scale can't do that very well).





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: c16, photographic memory, pkr, safe, inhibitor, ultimate, nootropic

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