238 replies to this topic

[PAM2]

Ok, your point is clear, and according to the saying: "If we want the world to stay peaceful we must prepare for war". I agree, and I'm maybe naive, but I hope noone jumps in a self-trial of a recent tested agent without collecting enough datas ahead (even if chasing any miracle effect from it, however it seems to be totally unrealistic), at least, because someone is lazy...it doesn't seem to be realistic, otherwise, there will be no logical reasoning, or warning that can stop anyone of self-destroyment.

And of course, it can make a lot of harm to the reputation (and existence!!) of the current community, if infos lead to longecity, as source, and encouragement of illegal drug abuse. But if you're truly convinced of reckless utilization of agents, the best you can do to warn people, and to diminish the harm someone occasionally does, per serving useful, practical informations. I totally agree, that you would like to stay away from any actions possible related to research chemical useage, this is the other option.

I am looking at this different. The biggest part of people that are interested in this compund doesnt have a medical/chemical background. The majority of this people in turn would asking how to administrate this correctly. Of that people that are left there are some that have no clue about this chemical AND not asking. And thats the risky "population".
For asking about to administrate this you have to know that this drug could be dangerous. But to know thats dangerous you have to ask for it OR researching for themselfs OR someobdy has to say it to them without they are asking for it. BUT the reality is many people are too lazy for this. Maybe they only hear at any place of this "miracle" drug. searching for this thread and jumping to the last page and asking where they could obtain it, without seeing that this question was answered some lines before a page before...
I have seen this many times. Because of that I dont think I am trolling. I am sure thats a real concern.

One more thing. Do you really think that the most people that are jumping in this thread are here to discuss this RESEARCH CHEMICAL? They are here to know if it does what they want and how to obtain it, nothing more. And SORRY but your sentence is ridiculous. You are trying to tell me, because its named RESEARCH CHEMICAL that people would be aware of the potential danger. If it would be so then it wouldnt be as a thread on this board. AND face it many people are here because of a movie ("Limitless"). I have read several times sentences from people on this board that they only want to reach that effect of that miracle drug and some people claim explicit that they want it at all costs. I could understand it if they had difficulties/problems/handicaps in their life that would make such a drug necessary because otherwise life wouldnt worth living for them. But here again reality is different many of that people have none of that handicaps.

Maybe you can now understand me better. If this drug would be a success in meaning it would do what they imagine it should do. How long do you think it would take till all sorts of people would ask for it? obtain it? consume it? how long it would take till someone would make an error?

[scitris]

I am glad that you understand me. Im not here to interrupt research or this thread. I only wanted to point out that we have to think the road down enough to see potential negative consequences beforehand.
Thats everything. I know that the people are aware of that, because of this they are making an appropiate protocol of usage. So you could see my posts like an echo of safety. To not forget it that it is necessary and to make sure that people think before giving to someone else. To be sure that necessarily steps are taken in regards of safety, surely only so far how it is possible.
regarding to practical administration of this compund. I have to say that I have not researched enough c16 to answering this question properly.
I could say more about DMSO but I am not sure if it will be the last answer to the question of administration.
But what I can say is DMSO is normally an organic solvent carrier for molecules through the skin. Ergo for transdermal applications. It has some effects on its own like analgetic poropoerties but on the otherhand it is toxic too.
The toxicity is higher per oral. It has shown to damage the liver and kidney if I am remembering right.
And one more thing how did you think to put a liquid solution in a capsule? Or did you thought about it as a (powder) mixture? Thats not a solution

[PAM2]

Yes, I know dmso is a regular transdermal carrier, and as far as I understand, the toxicity comes partly from the huge potential of taking all the substances with (from the surface of the skin etc.), when penetrating through the skin. I'm almost sure, that's not all the reasons, why someone has to be aware of using it.
I asked the way of administration, because of an earlier thread:

"


Introduction

The main goal of this experiment is to assess the effectivity of the PKR inhibitor (pkri) C16 in terms of memory enhancement in humans. So far, scientific literature only contains one study wherein research has been done about the nootropic values of pkri (http://ac.els-cdn.co...69bb02573dd29bb ). To further investigate its nootropic properties, two in vivo studies will be done.

The first one will investigate the activity of pkri in an other mammal besides mice. The goals is to reproduce the same results that were seen in the original studies. The second in vivo test is to investigate if it is successfully active in humans whitout downsides (side effects).


Method and materials

Because the dosages that are used are very small, it will be easier to dissolve an exact as possible measured quantity of C16 in DMSO (max. solubility: 12mg/ml).
For example: If 5mg were dissolved in 50 ml if DMSO, one has 0,1mg C16 for every ml (which is the dosage used in the original study).

The reason why this method of measurement will be applied is because it is easier and safer in usage. It is safer because one only has to weigh the substance once (which reduces human errors), and it only has to be weighed in the mg range and not the µg range which as well makes it easier.
So if a standard solution is premade it will be easier just to measure one ml of DMSO-solution (with the C16 in it) when the experiments are executed. The standard solution with pkri dissolved in it will be further kept below freezing temperature to prevent degradation of the compound.

One ml is very small in size and can be easily ejected in the back of the mouth of the test animal with a (sterilized) pipette.

The capsules for human trial will be of the 000 type which are large enough to contain one ml (volume of capsule= 1,37ml and density of DMSO is about the same as water).
http://www.erowid.or...p.sizechart.pdf


Actual dosing

The dosage used in the study that reported nootropic potential used minimaly 0,1mg/kg. How the researchers arrived at that dosage is not explaind.

If we base ourselfs on previous research, http://ac.els-cdn.co...4716c21217ed01c, we know that the minimal effective dosage for 7 day old mice is 3,35µg/kg. Higher doses only lead to marginally better PKR inhibition. So you can conclude that 3,35µg/kg is pretty much “just as effective” as higher dosages. This makes it in my opinion the best starting dosage.

Administration will happen from under limit to upper limit in small incremental dosages.

If we impliment the following formula to translate the mice dosage to human (and canine) dosage:


(http://www.fasebj.or...2/3/659.full#T1)

• 
  Human:

We get:

(3,35µg/kg) * (3/37) = 0,2716 µg/kg

A 70kg weighing individual would need the following dosage:

(0,2716 µg/kg) * (70kg) = 19,012 µg = 0,019012 mg

To get this dosage:

dissolve 5mg in 1000ml DMSO = 0,005mg/ml

4ml of this solution (= 4 type 000 capsules) gives us: 0,020 mg which is slightly above the effective dosage but definitely still between the under- and upper limit.

• 
  Dog:

(3,35µg/kg) * (3/20) = 0,5025 µg/kg

A 12 kg weighing dog would need the following dosage:

0,5025 µg/kg * 12kg = 6,03 µg = 0,00603 mg

Upper-and underlimit:
(Upper limit does not mean the maximum safe dosage, but it does mean the maximum dosage used in this experiment!)

• 
  Humans:

Under limit: 0,2716 µg/kg

Upper limit: 10 times the dosage (as seen in C16 study in 7 day old mice) = 2,716µg/kg

• 
  Dogs

Under limit: 0,00603 mg

Upper limit: 0,0603 mg

Cognitive testing

Human

Testing of memory ability in humans will be done through memory tests on: http://www.cambridgebrainsciences.com/
All these tests (memory categorie) are indeed short term memory tests and working memory tests. But test animals from the original study had an “one-trial-memory” induced, which means that only one trial was enough for the information to be transferred into their long term memory. This means that an improvement should be seen as well in short term memory tests.

Dog

As for testing the long term memory in dogs, I invented the following simple memory test which more or less taxes the spatial memory in the same way the morris water maze test does in mice.

To commence: A treat will be shown and given to at first excite the dog.
Next, a second treat will be placed somewhere in the room where the dog is situated in, but he is at the same time prevented from taking the treat prematurely.
The dog will then be placed outside the room where the treat was placed in. At that moment, the dog will be distracted for exactly 5 minutes. This time will be held consistent when the entire test will be done over again (multiple trials).
The dog is after 5 minutes of diversion, reëxposed to the initial room. The dogs time of trying to find the treat back will be timed.
During every trial a different spot for the treat to be placed will be chosen.

It goes without saying, I think, that every test (human and canine) will be done more than once (an average of 5 trials). What also goes futher without saying is that of each type of test, control tests (baseline tests) will be done done!
The scent of the treat shoud probably be masked with a certain spray to rule out that the dog finds the treat by smelling it and not by relying on its memory.


Toxicity reports

To investigate the possible toxicity of the compound, 2 bloodtests will be done. A controle bloodtest before experimentation and one after usage of the substance.
The bloodtests will monitor the following aspects:

• 
  gamma-glutamyl transferase
• 
  alanine aminotransferase
• 
  aspartaat aminotransferase
• 
  C-reactive protein (CRP)

These are all liver enzymes (and one protein synthesized by the liver), which pariculary interst me since I will orally take the compound. That means it will pass my digestive tract and therefore possibly stress my liver.
CRP will check for inflammation because PKR is involved in the stress pathway. "




So this "protocol" was the only one, I found to be oractical, and somehow based on evidence.
As I read it, the human and dog test suggests capsule ingestion (after dissolving in dmso), or did i get it wrong? That is one thing, I would like to get clear with...

In the first studies on mice, it was given intraperitoneal (I can't citate the article, you can find it in the current thread as well I think).

I am glad that you understand me. Im not here to interrupt research or this thread. I only wanted to point out that we have to think the road down enough to see potential negative consequences beforehand.
Thats everything. I know that the people are aware of that, because of this they are making an appropiate protocol of usage. So you could see my posts like an echo of safety. To not forget it that it is necessary and to make sure that people think before giving to someone else. To be sure that necessarily steps are taken in regards of safety, surely only so far how it is possible.
regarding to practical administration of this compund. I have to say that I have not researched enough c16 to answering this question properly.
I could say more about DMSO but I am not sure if it will be the last answer to the question of administration.
But what I can say is DMSO is normally an organic solvent carrier for molecules through the skin. Ergo for transdermal applications. It has some effects on its own like analgetic poropoerties but on the otherhand it is toxic too.
The toxicity is higher per oral. It has shown to damage the liver and kidney if I am remembering right.
And one more thing how did you think to put a liquid solution in a capsule? Or did you thought about it as a (powder) mixture? Thats not a solution

[scitris]

Im sure there is a problem. His calculations are right and the way of administration in form of a DMSO-solution is feasible.
But he is talking of the volume of one capsule that is absolutly normal measuring it in ml, like it would be appropiate to really fill the capsule with a liquid.
First of all I dont think that "normal" capsules are intended to be filled with a liquid aswell.
What you could do is to soak a medium with that solution and putting that in a capsule.
Secondly there is a good possibility that DMSO would dissolve the gelatine capsule. Maybe I am wrong here,so please correct me if anybody knows it better.
If we look at the second point as an untrue precondition then the question would be if it wouldnt dissolve the medium?
All this points are only legitimate if I am right that "normal" gelatine capsules arnt made to be filled with liquids/solvents.

Edit: He only talks one time about capsules. One more time about to administrating it on animals in form of an injection on the back of the mouth. Im sure he means throat.
At all other points he only speaks of administration of solution.

Edited by scitris, 24 November 2013 - 03:31 PM.

[renfr]

You can put liquids in capsules but you have to ingest them immediatly or else the content will leak out.

[JPC16]

I have good news and "less good" news (possibly bad news).

The good news is that I finally received the C16 from Googoltarian after a 5 month ordeal . The less good news is that it can still take a while before the actual results. The problem with this compound is that the active dosage range is very small. Meaning I need a microgram scale. I can access one at the university I go. But since the first academic term for me is almost at an end (and so are the practical courses), it might be possible I don't get a chance anymore to use the scale.
If that is the case, I will have to wait until the start of the next term which is in the beginning of February in 2014. I also of course have upcoming finals which means I also have less time. But either way, the trial will be done. You guys have no idea how frustrating this is for me !

[gnappi]

Hi JPC16, I have access to scales with 5 decimal places of precision (0.00001g) then I can easily prepare and test the C16. You can sell me 50mg (0.05g) and send it by ordinary letter, so in a week I will be with the C16 in the hands. What do you think?

[Azz19]

You wouldn't be able to send it in an ordinary letter because it needs to be kept cool. Also I doubt JPC16 would send it to you anyway because of the reasons discussed earlier.
Sorry maybe it isn't my place to be saying this.

[YOLF]

You should be able to get access to the scale during break if you're sticking around JPC16. I don't see why your teachers wouldn't let you use it if you asked them about it. Write a paper on what you're doing and it will be even better, you can get some writing credit for it.

[Nattzor]

Kinda related - http://io9.com/58691...ll-super memory

[Metagene]

What do you mean "kinda"? :P

[Nattzor]

What do you mean "kinda"? :P

They inhibited PKR by gene modification, not C16.

[Metagene]

I know I'm just giving you the business. It did say the researchers used an injectable compound to inhibit PKR in mice also.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited by Metagene, 29 November 2013 - 08:28 PM.

[Ark]

Just wanted to throw my name into the hat if you choose to do a larger test trial. *(IOR FUTURE TESTS)

[JPC16]

Hi JPC16, I have access to scales with 5 decimal places of precision (0.00001g) then I can easily prepare and test the C16. You can sell me 50mg (0.05g) and send it by ordinary letter, so in a week I will be with the C16 in the hands. What do you think?

I am not going to send the C16. First of all, it took me 5 months before I finally received it. I first wanna hold on to it, for a while . Secondly, I only have 5mg not 50mg! Also I don't know how stable the compound is at room temperature, not yet. I am planning to do a test in the future (when I finally get a chance to weigh it correctly) by storing a dosage of the sample at room temperature for two weeks. After two weeks I will trial it. I of course will only do that if I know the compound actually works which will be determined by the initial trial.
So if I send it to someone right now, there might be a chance that the compound has been degraded before it has reached you. And that would be a big wast (I only have 5 mg). Sending some of the sample by mail can take as much as two to three weeks.
So I might sell it in the future but only when I know it can be transported at room temperature for long periods of time.

You should be able to get access to the scale during break if you're sticking around JPC16. I don't see why your teachers wouldn't let you use it if you asked them about it. Write a paper on what you're doing and it will be even better, you can get some writing credit for it.

I am also pretty sure that the university I go to will not be amused with the self-administration of a research chemical. Let alone that they will enable me.

[JPC16]

It also might not be a bad idea to start thinking about a group buy. Definitely if it can be produced pretty cheap and of course if there are enough participants.

[mentat]

I'am also interested in trying it. Maybe i can order it through my company. So if anyone is interested in a group buy, send me a pm. Will order from Sig Aldr. if possible. Note: I'm only sending to European or preferably german participants if i can produce a stable solution with the dmso.

[PAM2]

I'm trying to do the same, meaning to figure out a stable dissolved structure of it while reserving it's bioavailability.
If you figure out something, I would be interested, or we could cooperate if possible. Btw I'm working in Germany as well...

[spookytooth]

Finally something in regards to nootropics is happening in Germany. Freut mich

[mentat]

Cooperation is always welcome, come on guys this works so much better if we figure it out together. what are your backgrounds @spookytooth and @zach. and do you know someone with a lab or who works at a lab who could be of help?

[spookytooth]

I am a medical student. I don't know anyone who works at a lab or who has connections to one.

Edited by spookytooth, 12 December 2013 - 05:18 PM.

[PAM2]

Great, I'm in touch with some labs, and making custom synthesis on different agents (nsi, isrib, c-16...), already got different quotations, and now deciding next to the most reasonable circumstances of production. I'm an MD btw. Despite the advanced stage of the synthesis, I also have to figure out the right way of storage, and administration of c16. So on my end feel free to cooperate too.

[megatron]

I'm definitely in, if we can solve the problems mentioned.

[Azz19]

At 19µg a dose 5mg should last for 263 doses. That sounds good seeing as that 5mg costs about 50 GBP.

[mentat]

@JPC16 have you tried it yet?

[xxxdavid]

I am very very curious about C16, tell me more JPC16!

[xxxdavid]

i've found that, differently from Sigma Aldricht, on thes site emdmillipore . com is available C16 also for common people also if the purity is of 90%

[xxxdavid]

the name of the product there is 527450-5MG

the only thing that scary me is the injection, i'd prefer an oral pill eheh

[Beynini-Zikiyim]

hey guys,hallöchen allerseits

i guess you need much more informations about C-16 before ordering and getting it and than injecting it in your bodies..
And to JPC16; It´s kind of weird to inject yourself a substance you don´t know what it exactly is and normally being shipped in wet ice and should be stored at -20..So if you stored it at room temperature you better throw it away now..So just stay alive and away of things you can´t handle with,i would suggest...

Edited by Beynini-Zikiyim, 15 January 2014 - 11:46 PM.

[snowcone]

I have been following this thread for freagin months! Jesus this is taking a while. But JPC16 you are a crazy little guinea pig. If this is anything like the results on the rats you will be a pioneer in advancement of the human brain. I bet you will have a book written about you lol. But could you please hurry with the results lots of us have been waiting eagerly for atleast half a year. And if all goes well I'm up for a group buy