19 replies to this topic

[Adamzski]

I took 5mg for around 4 years in my early 20's and continued to take 1mg for another 6 years. At 5mg I developed mild gyno with itchy niples.. haha and feelings of empathy, reduced hard ons..

It did keep my hair. not perfectly but I kept much more hair than I would of otherwise. For the first 4 years I regrew a lot of hair and went from a 21yo NW2.5 to a NW1. Over the next 6 years I progressed to a strong NW3.5 but always had enough hair to style it in a way where it did not look so bad. I then stopped it for a year in 2010 and quickly went to a NW 4.5, especialy my hairline this was hit hardest and moved backward a half inch. Previously I could get away with Faux hawk style hair and it would look good but.. It suddenly was undoable..

Now I have been off Finasteride for 3 years, my hair loss has stabilized to NW5 and I would not expect my hairloss to progress any further than this for the next 10yrs.
My top of head is shaved and I wear a hairpiece, so my hairloss is cured even more than at 21yo right now..

I am thinking of going back on a 0.5 mg of finas per day or a weekly dose of dut.

The entire top of my head is covered with small hair and I have no slick spot at all, just I am massively diffuse bald.

Do people here take it? I know of the prostate cancer trial and from what I have read Finas does not decrease the prostate cancer risk it only reduces the detection of the cancer.

For my health, brain and longevity how can finas impact these? I did hear of someone here taking finas just for the anti cancer benefits.

RU58841 topically may be better.

[JohnD60]

thanks for the reminder. I buy 5mg tablets, split them in half and take 2 halfs a week. Sometimes I forget to take them. I have had bloodwork done and my DHT was on the high end, I would not recommend taking unless you confirm via blood testing that your DHT is high. I much prefer topical treatments for hairloss issues, minoxidil twice a day and that Keto shampoo once a day. Fin is just for people with moderate hairloss. Some people are just going to end up bald no matter what they take.

I have no idea how Fin impacts brain and longevity, I just think it is best used in moderation and with blood work to monitor DHT levels.

[Adamzski]

That is a really great point that I have never really thought of before.
I know that atleast it is thought that MPB hair follicles are more sensative to DHT but if someone had low DHT levels already then taking these drugs may do nothing except give them side effects.

I will get some blood work.

Do you think you would be better off taking a quarter 4 times per week? I have seen the graphs that shows that if I remember rightly that .2 of a mg does 80% as much as 1mg

[Adamzski]

Another thing is that I really had a rollercoaster of being extremly horney then quite non horney. I seemed really sensitive to the drugs, if I stopped taking them for a day or two I was crazy horney to the point of fantasies of fetishes that never cross my mind anymore. Rebound hyper andro or something. Could you be making lows and highs of DHT that cancel each other out by taking it twice per week at a decent dose?

[JohnD60]

Do you think you would be better off taking a quarter 4 times per week? I have seen the graphs that shows that if I remember rightly that .2 of a mg does 80% as much as 1mg

As I understand the half life of Finastaeride in the blood is only about 4-7 hours, but the more important metric is how long it disables the 5a enzyme and suppresses DHT, and that is 4+ days. http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8846625 That study also says doses below 0.5mg do little to suppress DHT. Please provide a link to the chart that says 0.2mg is 80% as effective as 1mg, as it would seem to be contradicted by this study.
Two problems with taking 1/4 tablet four times a week, 1. It is just my general practice to vary my supplement consumption such that I do not maintain a steady blood concentration of any supplement. If I can suppress my DHT adequately taking it only twice a week, and blood tests indicate I can, I think that is superior to taking it 4+ times a week 2. It is really hard to cut those tablets into four pieces

[Adamzski]

are drugs fairly well distributed in tablet filler? I considered getting a pack of proscar ground up and capped .5mg before. would be cheap to do this in Korea.

This link does not have the actual graphs but names the studies. The 0.2mg 80% ratio is something that I have heard a lot in the hairloss forums, http://www.hairlosst...ffective-as-1mg

When Dutasteride come out a big thing was that it had a much longer half life and steady state. People at that time were recommending to take 1mg propecia twice per day.

My best results ever was taking 1/4 proscar morning and night, retin-a liquid night, liquid spiro night and around double the regular minox dose morning night and afternoon. I really gained so much at that time, it was 8 years ago so I would not expect to regrow a substantial amount of hair doing the same again.

I will get some of my proscars capped for about $10 and try a month at .5mg twice per week.

[nowayout]

The docs supplied to the FDA has a dose response graph showing almost as much suppression of DHT at 0.05 mg as at 1 mg. Based on this, some FDA reviewers obkected to the 1 mg dose.

[JohnD60]

..

This link does not have the actual graphs but names the studies. The 0.2mg 80% ratio is something that I have heard a lot in the hairloss forums, http://www.hairlosst...ffective-as-1mg

The study they are talking about in your link uses hair count as the metric. I believe the study I posted uses DHT levels as the metric. So both could be true in their own way. Which just brings me back to my point about the importance of measuring your actual DHT level via bloodwork, for people with average DHT a 0.5mg (or less) dose probably is fine, but men truely high in DHT would need the full 1mg. So doctors just go ahead, skip the blood test, and prescribe the 1mg for everyone, assuming that there are no side effects for moderate overdosing, since that is what the pharm company tells them.

[ta5]

Even with 5mg of Finasteride every day, DHT levels fluctuate quite a bit - more than dutasteride every day.

[JohnD60]

Even with 5mg of Finasteride every day, DHT levels fluctuate quite a bit - more than dutasteride every day.

I do not know the source of your charts or how old they are, but at the bottom it says 'predicted steady-state concentrations', so not real data, but someone's theroretical prediction of what the DHT levels would be at varies doses. I am at a loss as to why someone would gernerate theroretical charts rather than just publish real data.

[ta5]

I think it's from this study. Note the methods section.


Clin Pharmacol Ther. 1998 Dec;64(6):636-47.

A model for the turnover of dihydrotestosterone in the presence of the irreversible 5 alpha-reductase inhibitors GI198745 and finasteride.

Gisleskog PO, Hermann D, Hammarlund-Udenaes M, Karlsson MO.
Division of Clinical Pharmacology, GlaxoWellcome Research and Development, Middlesex, England. po7205@GlaxoWellcome.co.uk
OBJECTIVE:
To develop a pharmacokinetic-pharmacodynamic model that characterizes the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) by 5 alpha-reductase types 1 and 2 and the irreversible inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase by finasteride, a 5 alpha-reductase type 2 inhibitor and by GI198745 (dutasteride), a potent and specific dual 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor.
METHODS:
Healthy men (n = 48) received doses of 0.1 to 40 mg GI198745 (n = 4 subjects per dose), 5 mg finasteride (n = 8), or placebo (n = 8) in a parallel-group study. Plasma concentrations of GI198745, finasteride, and DHT were measured frequently up to 8 weeks after dosing. Models were fitted with mixed-effects modeling with the NONMEM program.
RESULTS:
The pharmacodynamics were well described with a model that accounted for the rates of DHT formation and elimination, 5 alpha-reductase turnover, relative capacity of the 2 5 alpha-reductase isozymes, and the rates of irreversible inhibition of one (finasteride) or both (GI198745) types of 5 alpha-reductase. The model indicated that type 2 5 alpha-reductase contributed approximately 80% of plasma DHT. GI198745 was about 3-fold more potent than finasteride on 5 alpha-reductase type 2. Nearly full blockade of both isozymes was achieved at doses of 10 mg or more GI198745, although the potency of this agent on 5 alpha-reductase type 1 was less than on type 2.
CONCLUSIONS:
A physiologically based model for the turnover and irreversible inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase and for formation and elimination of DHT described the data well. This model helps explain differences in the rates of onset and offset of effect and offers a way to determine the relative potency of the irreversible 5 alpha-reductase inhibitors.
PMID: 9871428



Here's are some others with full free studies:
http://pmid.us/full:10073740
http://pmid.us/full:10425379

[ta5]

This study compares the effects of different doses of Dut to Fin on hair loss in men:


J Am Acad Dermatol. 2006 Dec;55(6):1014-23.

The importance of dual 5alpha-reductase inhibition in the treatment of male pattern hair loss: results of a randomized placebo-controlled study of dutasteride versus finasteride.

Olsen EA, Hordinsky M, Whiting D, Stough D, Hobbs S, Ellis ML, Wilson T, Rittmaster RS; Dutasteride Alopecia Research Team.
Duke University Medical Center, Durham, North Carolina, USA. olsen001@mc.duke.edu
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Male pattern hair loss (MPHL) is a potentially reversible condition in which dihydrotestosterone is an important etiologic factor.
OBJECTIVE:
Our aim was to evaluate the efficacy of the type 1 and 2 5alpha-reductase inhibitor dutasteride in men with MPHL.
METHODS:
Four hundred sixteen men, 21 to 45 years old, were randomized to receive dutasteride 0.05, 0.1, 0.5 or 2.5 mg, finasteride 5 mg, or placebo daily for 24 weeks.
RESULTS:
Dutasteride increased target area hair count versus placebo in a dose-dependent fashion and dutasteride 2.5 mg was superior to finasteride at 12 and 24 weeks. Expert panel photographic review and investigator assessment of hair growth confirmed these results. Scalp and serum dihydrotestosterone levels decreased, and testosterone levels increased, in a dose-dependent fashion with dutasteride.
LIMITATIONS:
The study was limited to 24 weeks.
CONCLUSION:
Dutasteride increases scalp hair growth in men with MPHL. Type 1 and type 2 5alpha-reductase may be important in the pathogenesis and treatment of MPHL.
PMID: 17110217


The full study might be found here.

[nowayout]

What really worries me about these drugs is the possibiltity of irreversible mental and sexual side effects. Something to this effect was recently added to the warning section of the insert.

I'm okay wth reversible, but for irreversible there is no small enough ptobability in my opinion. Even the tiniest small number times infinity is still infinity.

Edited by nowayout, 22 June 2013 - 11:39 AM.

[Adamzski]

Im thinking again of getting back on 0.2mg propecia, all through my 20s I took up to crazy doses of up to 5-10mg per day, I still functioned as a horney individual, was a bit softer but nothing a Cialis couldn't fix when needed but I mean a bit softer nothing major, did not have morning wood..

 

Any new studies or thoughts on finas? what about studies comparing 20's individuals with people in their lateish 30's. I may have dodged a bullet by using it when I was younger and able to recover.

[Adamzski]

Maybe 0.1mg Dutasteride once per week? http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/resources/hair-restoration-papers/dutasteride-vs-finasteride/ 

 

I would really like to start atleast doing something for my hair again. 

[Heyman]

Maybe 0.1mg Dutasteride once per week? http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/resources/hair-restoration-papers/dutasteride-vs-finasteride/ 

 

I would really like to start atleast doing something for my hair again. 

 

I remember reading about the above research and some argument that likely fin or lower doses has the same effect regarding hair growth, it just needs longer to manifest. Just like with higher doses of fin / dut DHT is inhibited more quickly, after a few weeks even at low dose the response curve is approaching the higher dose curve, it just needs more time. Likely the same is true for hair growth, e.g. if the study was to look at 56 weeks, results would maybe be much more similar.

 

I think DUT may be far more dangeorus then fin regarding sides, if you look at the different types of DHT it supresses. I take 0.25mg fin daily, if I were you I would use that instead of DUT.

[Unsatisfied]

Im thinking again of getting back on 0.2mg propecia, all through my 20s I took up to crazy doses of up to 5-10mg per day, I still functioned as a horney individual, was a bit softer but nothing a Cialis couldn't fix when needed but I mean a bit softer nothing major, did not have morning wood..

 

Any new studies or thoughts on finas? what about studies comparing 20's individuals with people in their lateish 30's. I may have dodged a bullet by using it when I was younger and able to recover.

 

 

If i was an NW5 there's no way in hell id even entertain the idea of getting back on fin. I think you should just accept the baldness and get on with your life. Average case scenario, you see no regrowth but maintain what you currently have. Best case, you get a little bit of regrowth and can maybe maintain a NW4 or even a 3.5, which imo looks worse than complete baldness anyway.

 

I tried fin for around 4 months, 1mg every other day. Developed some severe brain fog, depression, and felt like i was turning into a submissive little girl. Pretty much every male-to-female transvestite takes finasteride to aid with their transformation. That says alot about its effects on your body.

 

When i started feeling the mental effects i researched the effect of finasteride on neurosteroids. Turns out that 5-ar is important for many other things that are key tor our mental functioning, the main one being the conversion of Progesterone to Allopregnanolone. I decided it's just not worth messing around with my endocrine system to maintain some weak sense of vanity.

 

Most of the recent research on fin is to do with post-finasteride syndrome, which im sure you're familiar with.

 

 

Edited by Unsatisfied, 19 July 2014 - 10:39 AM.

[Matt]

@Adamzski You sound extremely unsure of what to do. I think that given the amount of hair lost already, you'd be better off working with other parts of your lifestyle to minimize hair loss. I do know some pretty impressive results from that medication, but you're unlikely to be getting all that hair back from it. If you're content with where you're at now then just do it! It's very good at preventing further loss. And the side effects that are irreversible are quite uncommon. (it makes me wonder whether its psychological or its really affected how the brain responds after being on it long term).  I have friends that were unsure like you, and in the end they ended up losing all their hair because they literally look years to decide what to do. ;p

 

@unsatisfied Transgender; not transvestite. And they primarily take spironolactone and less commonly, androcur -- they don't typically use a 5-alpha reductase inhibitors like finasteride because that just stops the conversion to DHT and doesn't lower testosterone. 

[nowayout]

You have to decide if, given your current level of balding, it is really going to make that much of a cosmetic difference to risk the side effects, including the gyno and possible sexual side effects you mention.  It hardly seems worth it to go from massive diffuse balding to slightly less massive diffuse balding. 

[Heyman]

 

I tried fin for around 4 months, 1mg every other day. Developed some severe brain fog, depression, and felt like i was turning into a submissive little girl. Pretty much every male-to-female transvestite takes finasteride to aid with their transformation. That says alot about its effects on your body.

 

 

I had all those side effects for a certain time period before I actually started using fin. Even the ache in my testicles. I'm very sure that if I were to have taken fin back then, I would have attributed it to fin.