196 replies to this topic

[solarfingers]

This is PERFECT! Thank you. My next question would be dosing. If I were to get the supplements listed, would I take them daily without a break? Do you suggest splitting them up into cycles? Or just going supplement free a couple days a week?

Jreinhal,

I'm glad you found the answer satisfactory... On the other hand I'm just getting started and haven't quantified dosages quite yet. We can probably get some tips from Vince's Anti-Aging Firewalls where he breaks down his regimen. You can take a look at my profile and get an idea of what I am currently taking and dosages. If you decide to mega-dose L-Carnosine then please understand you need the Taurine and L-Histinine. If you don't take them they will be depleted and you will likely get some unwanted toxic effects. This counts for dosages of over 2000 mg of L-Carnosine though 1500 is considered high. The regular dosage is no more than 1000 mg a day. Again, I AM NO EXPERT!

As far as cycling, I am currently considering this. I am loosely following Jim Green's example of telomerase activation. He is on a two, two week cycle. You can read his thoughts here. Go to the middle of the page to read his 2013 regimen.

I will definitely narrow down my choices but this isn't the kind of thing I want to rush. I am fairly used to taking risks but I like to think I make educated choices which means I only add things when something has clicked and it REALLY makes sense to me. I have also started an off-site blog where I congeal allot of my thinking. It's a fluid instrument for me and will always be in state of change. You might get more insight into my methodologies there.

There are allot of very knowledgeable people here on Longecity. Most of them can dance a dirge over my ideas and methodology. When it comes down to it you have to be the one who decides which direction is good for you. Thanks for bringing your attention to this thread. If anything it will be a good springboard for your own exploration. Please comment and add to the knowledge base as we move forward. I welcome constructive discussions.

[Logic]

Amyloidosis

Excess antibody protein fragments produced by bone marrow build up in the bloodstream and are then deposited between cells in body tissue.
Chronic infections and inflammatory disease speed up the process.

This points to the elimination of, or at least the minimization of, infection as important in minimising Amaloidosis.
This subject has been discussed extensively here and starts with the elimination of bad bacteria in the gut and systemically.
Off the top of my head Probiotics, Prebiotics, BHT, EV Coconut Oil, Emodin, Olive Leaf Extract etc are a good place to start with putting together an anti pathogen stack.
For inflammation; the usual suspects with other beneficial effects are Curcumin, resveratrol, Omega 3 etc.
(A site search and wider search is required)

Another reason for the production of faulty, useless proteins that will build up in the body is due to DNA, Mitochondrial etc damage caused by Oxidation/ROS.
This points to the is the use of anti-oxidants, telomerase activators and DNA repair supplements and essential nutrients as a means of minimising Amyloidosis.
C60oo, Astragalus etc and Cat's Claw, selenium, zinc, Magnesium etc come to mind.

"...Vitamin C (1 - 2 g per day). One animal study suggested that high doses of vitamin C may help the body break down amyloid and prevent amyloidosis from worsening, but there is no evidence this works in humans..."

"...DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide, 7 - 15 g per day orally, and 50 - 100% solution applied to skin topically 2 times per week), an organic liquid that is used as an industrial solvent, has shown mixed results in scientific studies..."

"...Bromelain (250 - 500 mg 3 times per day), an enzyme derived from pineapple, fights inflammation and may help break down amyloid deposits in kidney tissue, though evidence is slight. Bromelain is often combined with turmeric, which strengthens its effects..."

"...Glutathione is an antioxidant produced by the body. Low levels may be associated with higher levels of beta2 microglobulin in people on dialysis with or without amyloidosis. This suggests there may be a link between glutathione levels in the blood and development or worsening of beta2 microglobulin amyloidosis..."

"...Flavonoids are plant compounds that fight damage from stress, oxidation, and inflammation. They may be useful as a supportive therapy to standard medical care in treating amyloidosis:

Pycnogenol (Pinus pinaster, 200 mg per day), which comes from the bark of French maritime pine, is rich in flavonoids. One laboratory study suggested that pycnogenol protected cells of cattle from free radical damage due to amyloid deposits..."
(Pycnogenol is also said to cause the restructuring of collagen links in skin, leading to a more youthful configuration and is worthy of more research IMHO)

"...Gingko (Gingko biloba) extract also contains flavonoids. It has been suggested as a treatment for Alzheimer's disease. Given the link between Alzheimer's and amyloid deposits, gingko may help treat amyloidosis as well, especially because it is also an antioxidant..."
(This suggests that things that are good for Alzheimer's, like B3 and Methylene Blue are worth more research)

Reference:
http://umm.edu/healt...s#ixzz2XyGkHwxj

[solarfingers]

Logic, That was awsome! There's actually a condition leading to amyloid buildup. I also haven't forgotten the desire for DNA repair. It looks like taking Zinc and Magnesium are essential to ensuring DNA is not damaged during cell division. Cats Claw providing a mechanism of repair sounds like an opportunity to ensure that DNA that is damaged has an opportunity to be recovered. Picnogenol sound very interesting as well. I had not considered the damage created by amyloid buildup and mechanisms for repair looks to be very advantageous.

[niner]

I found this researching today and think it fits well into this discussion of supplementation and telomeres. My initial search was in response to this article which describes the function of folate and polyphenols in regulating telomere length.

Targeted Nutrients and Foods Increase DNA Methylation to Maintain Telomere Length

Researchers reporting in The Journal of Nutrition found that men with the highest levels of folate in their blood have the longest telomeres when compared to those with the lowest levels. In addition to folate (800 mcg each day), vitamin B12 (500 to 1000 mcg daily) and the entire B-vitamin family are associated with longer telomeres. Sulfur-enriched proteins from nuts and seeds are also important methyl group donors.

This is the first time I have heard of Folate and it seems to have a prominent position in the lengthening of telomeres.

Independent research projects have concluded that the minerals zinc (25 to 50 mg per day) and magnesium (400 to 800 mg each day) are necessary to accurately complete DNA sequencing during cell replication. A lack of these cofactors leads to DNA strand breakage, premature cell destruction and acceleration of the aging process. Vitamin C (1 to 3 grams per day) has been shown to slow the loss of telomeres in human vascular endothelial cells, an important element in preventing cardiovascular disease. Vitamin E tocotrienols (400 mg per day of a full-spectrum supplement) have been shown to restore the length of telomeres while reducing DNA damage, making it possible for a nutrient to reverse the shortening of telomeres and reverse an underlying cause of aging.

I wouldn't be too quick to supplement folate, particularly at high doses (I consider 800 ug to be high). With perhaps a few exceptions, supplemental folate is synthetic, and actually differs from natural folate. Natural folate from vegetables possesses a polyglutamate tail, while the synthetic form and some of the folate from meat and grain is monoglutamate. The vegetable folate has good epidemiology, while there are questions about the outcomes with synthetic folate. I'm calling them both "folate", because I'm a chemist, but some genius decided that "folate" should mean natural folate, and "folic acid" would mean synthetic folate. I find this perversion of well-established nomenclature both appalling and misleading. Chris Kresser goes into the issue.

The paper that was referenced in the naturalnews piece saw some correlations, but it really doesn't have anything to say about causation. It was actually more complicated, with telomere lengths being higher for both the low and high quartiles of serum folate. I prefer to get folate from leafy vegetables, and don't supplement it. Some people may benefit from supplementation of folate forms that are further down the biosynthetic pathway if they have certain mutations (that are not particularly rare). For what it's worth, Natural News is not a reliable source of information. They're kind of in the Mercola category, with an added helping of paranoid conspiracy theory. 50mg zinc and 800mg Mg is too much.

[solarfingers]

Niner, Thanks for the sanity check. I would think that juicing would provide adequate amounts of folic acid. If however our goal is telomere lengthing then the polyphenols in leafy vegetables would counteract the release of telomerase. What are your thoughts on this?

Also, this paper credits folate and polyphenols for regulating telomere lengthening...

http://genetics2012r...and Epigenetics

Edited by solarfingers, 03 July 2013 - 10:25 PM.

[niner]

I would think that juicing would provide adequate amounts of folic acid. If however our goal is telomere lengthing then the polyphenols in leafy vegetables would counteract the release of telomerase. What are your thoughts on this?

I really don't worry about polyphenols inhibiting telomerase. For one thing, telomerase usually isn't expressed in most cells, so there's nothing to inhibit. For another, all I can remember seeing regarding polyphenol telomerase inhibition was in vitro work that used impossibly high concentrations and exposure times. One of, if not the biggest contributors to telomere shortening is oxidative damage to telomeric DNA. Polyphenols should if anything reduce this, so they are probably a net positive with regards to telomere length.

[solarfingers]

I would think that juicing would provide adequate amounts of folic acid. If however our goal is telomere lengthing then the polyphenols in leafy vegetables would counteract the release of telomerase. What are your thoughts on this?

I really don't worry about polyphenols inhibiting telomerase. For one thing, telomerase usually isn't expressed in most cells, so there's nothing to inhibit. For another, all I can remember seeing regarding polyphenol telomerase inhibition was in vitro work that used impossibly high concentrations and exposure times. One of, if not the biggest contributors to telomere shortening is oxidative damage to telomeric DNA. Polyphenols should if anything reduce this, so they are probably a net positive with regards to telomere length.

Well it obviously bothers me because it's one of those nagging questions that I can't seem to nail down. The paper I mentioned seems to both agree with you yet leaves that question open.

Polyphenols can have more than one effect on telomere length. In one study, they were found to increase telomere length through their strong anti-oxidant properties (Ligi, 2011). Oxidative species in general damage biological components, and by eliminating oxidative species an organism can have more efficient anabolic abilities. However, another study found that polyphenols can inhibit telomerase activity in cancer cells (Nasaani et al, 2003).

It would be comforting if there was a study that showed that it lengthened telomere's in healthy cells and at the same time inhibited them in cancerous cells. Another proof of the pudding would be to test telomere length in someone who consciously took foods or supplements with high polyphenols while attempting to increase telomere length. It is obvious I am still troubling myself with the purpose of cycling. The problem I see is that almost all polyphenol foods are also telomerase inhibitors. Logic makes a good argument that if inhibitors did inhibit telomere length in normal cells then they would result in accelerated aging. I think it is a safe thing to say this is not empirically true since people who ingest a great deal of polyphenols through juicing seem to have greater health not the adverse. If anything this is a good discussion because I believe there is a great deal of confusion here.

Both Jim Green and Vince Giuliano do not agree on this point. It is important to note that Vince has given up on taking astragalus-based activators all together:

My personal choice regarding taking explicit astragalus-based telomerase-activating substances.... I stopped taking them over 2 years ago and don’t now plan to resume taking them...

A number of the very-important supplements I take daily like resveratrol and curcumin with very well-documented health benefits reportedly interfere with the effectiveness of the astragalus-based supplements. So people taking the astragalus-based supplements either give these other supplements up or take them every other day. I think this is an extremely poor tradeoff when it comes to highly-researched and well- known benefits for health and longevity...

So Vince just skirts the whole problem by not attempting to prevent telomerase shortening through taking telomerase activators. His angle is that he gets sufficient telomere length through a healthy lifestlyle and supplementation.

There are several current research findings about telomeres and telomerase published in the last 18 months that go beyond those in the publications cited above. I believe they collectively suggest that it may not be worthwhile for normal people, even aging ones like myself, to take a telomerase extender.

Finally I do not need to take the astragalus-based supplements to get the result of making sure my telomeres are long. A number of lifestyle interventions I am pursuing, dietary substances I consume, and phytosubstance supplements I take are correlated with very effectively enlongating telomeres (ref)(ref)(ref)(ref).

Vince is an avid reader of published data and I value much of what he has to say. Jim Green on the other hand is also a very compelling voice in this area. Green promotes a telomerase activation and inhibition cycle over a month in which he says,

Run telomerase activation as a square wave with a cycle period of a month, using 2 weeks of telomerase activation followed by 2 weeks of anticancer telomerase inhibition. Avoiding high polyphenol foods during the first 2 weeks helps separate telomerase activation phase from the telomerase inhibition phase to implement a push-pull telomere elongation engine approach to life extension propulsion. Now we can catch a ride on a monthly telomerase activation cycle and attempt to ride it into eternity like a new pet hitched to the moon for a perpetual lifetime.

So, in all faireness Green is not saying that telomerase inhibitors inhibit telomerase in healthy cells. Yet, he does seem to feel that polyphenols do interfere with telomerase activation perhaps making emphasis of activation less fruitfull. I wonder if Green's real concern is trying to seperate and address two seperate issues. One, growing telomere's and two, fighting cancer.

I think cyclic telomerase activation will make our genes more stable against cancer, and that our strategy in life extension should include cyclic telomerase activation as a matter of course, so that we do not suffer much from the presence of senescent cells in our bodies. This also requires limiting cellular wastes such as lipofuscin, and avoiding other mechanisms that can trigger senescence, such as high levels of oxidative radicals that damage telomeric DNA in the absence of transcription, which tends to repair transcribed DNA.

So, what is the affect of polyphenol inhibitors on telomerase activator's? Again, I keep going back to Logic's argument that if telomerase inhibitors did inhibit telomerase in healthy cells then it would cause premature aging. If we look at Jack LaLanne who was an avid juicer we would have to conclude that Logic is correct. He died at a sprite 96 years of age. He also lived a very healthy lifestyle for most of his life which would have contributed to a healthy cell matabolism. I think it is fair to say the Jack LaLanne is not an "Everyman" kind of guy. I guess the weight of proof is on Jim Green as to why such a methodology is necessary in the first place. It looks to be prudent and that's the only thing I can say for it.

Lastly I would be curious how many people are taking Epitalon are doing so in conjunction with Green Tea (Extracts), Resveratrol and the like.

[solarfingers]

For telomerase I have astragalus as a '3A' activator and zinc as a 3 on your list. I take these in the morning. At night I take the resveratrol which is a telomere inhibitor according to your chart with some wine polyphenols. Now that I look at your chart and think about how the body repairs and renews tissues at night, maybe I should have my telomerase activators in the evening and the telomere inhibitors in the morning. The trouble with doing this is that I take the astragalus with oatmeal/nuts breakfast. I don't think it makes a nice relaxing tea before bedtime (cak!!). It doesn't make too much sense to have both telomere activators and Inhibitors at the same time. Any comments?

My hair loss isn't bad enough to justify using propecia, It seems to be stable now, but not growing back too much.

You know, I thought I read once that VG took activators in the morning and inhibitors at night. After combing his site I am aware that he doesn't even worry anymore. I do think it could be a good idea since there is the remote possibility that one may work against the other if one is high in polyphenols as Resveratrol is known to be. I think your idea of repairing at night with telomere activators and prevention during the day with inhibitors may make a wise and alternative choice which will fall somewhere between what VG and JG are thinking (Kind of the best of both worlds). I guess the big question is how long it takes each to pass through the body in a 24 hour period and if there would still be some interaction between the two or not. I think there would likely still be some inhibitors lingering around when you take activators and visa-verse. There are others in these forums who would have a better grip on that question. It may be a mute point anyhow but something to think about.

[solarfingers]

L-Carnosine

A substance that protects and extends the functional life of the body's key building blocks—cells, proteins, DNA, lipids—can be fairly called an agent of longevity. When that agent is safe, naturally present in the body and in food, and has demonstrated prolongation of life span in animals and cultured human cells, it is fundamental to any life extension program. Mounting research suggests that carnosine has just such anti-aging potential.

http://www.adultstem...ml#.UdXUZIbIJ41

L-Carnosine is a dipeptide of the amino acides beta-alanine and histidine. It is a well know ROS scavenger which is found in high concentrations in the muscle and brain tissues. It is known to rejuvenate cells and is a key anti-aging agent. It is effective against a number of protein modifications to include oxidation, carbonylation, cross-linking and AGE formation. It is one of the few antioxidants to significantly protect chromosomes from oxidative damage.

When present, L-Carnosine has cell life extending properties and is well known to extend the life span of cells as they approach the Hayflick limit. L-Carnosine is able to reverse the signs of aging cells and is a telomere protector. In lab testing cells treated with L-Carnosine had a cell division increase of an astounding 300%. Studies have shown that rats treated with L-Carnosine have significantly reduced outward signs of old age and are twice as likely to achieve their maximum age.

L-Carnosine is noted to protect against alcohol induced liver damage, it protects the brain and is used in some seizure disorders. It helps wounds heal more quickly and is useful in helping people recover from the side effects of chemotherapy. L-Carnosine is known to protect the cardiovascular system and is a strong neuroprotector.

There is no known toxicity when L-Carnosine is taken in relatively high dosages. However, if taking high dosages of L-Carnosine (over 1500 mg) - Taurine supplementation is recommended to prevent depletion in the kidneys. Taurine is also necessary for healthy enzime interactions at the cellular level. Histidine supplementation is recommended to prevent histimine depletion which is important to a healthy immune system. Higher levels of Histidine in the system can reduce inflammation. In addition to their anti-AGE action, Carnosine and Histidine protect against alcohol-induced liver damage and depression.

Citations:

Adult Stemcell Foundation - The latest information about Adult Stem Cell Therapy-Carnosine and Cell Rejuvenation
Carnosine, Still the Best for Anti-Aging | Baseline of Health
Preventing AGEs and Cross-linkages:
Effects of dietary supplementation of carnosine on ... [PLoS One. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI
PLOS ONE: Effects of Dietary Supplementation of Carnosine on Mitochondrial Dysfunction, Amyloid Pathology, and Cognitive Deficits in 3xTg-AD Mice
How Carnosine Protects Against Age-Related Disease - Life Extension
Carnosine
L Carnosine: Can You Trust This Potent Age-Fighter?
Carnosine: A Proven Longevity Factor - Life Extension
Decreased formation of advanced glyca... [Perit Dial Int. 2007 Jan-Feb] - PubMed - NCBI

Edited by solarfingers, 04 July 2013 - 08:57 PM.

[niner]

Well, I can see that the issue of telomerase activators vs. inhibitors is concerning to you. Nasaani et al. 2003 was pretty good- they found that EGCG was quite effective against telomerase-positive tumors implanted in mice when those mice were given quite human-reasonable doses. Not only that, but it was not effective in similar mice implanted with a telomerase-negative tumor. This suggests to me that EGCG may be a smart thing to take if you don't want to have cancer get out of control. This paper is important not only because it's a human-relevant model, but it also says something about the mechanism of EGCG anti-cancer action.

So... you'd like to lengthen telomeres, but you'd also like to take various polyphenols. What to do? Well, we don't actually know how constitutively active telomerase in a cancer cell compares to transiently activated telomerase in a normal somatic cell. Maybe inhibiting the former doesn't mean you will inhibit the latter- we don't know. The degree to which telomere length impacts human aging, particularly at the ages of most of us, is probably not all that much. If you had a large number of critically short telomeres, that might be a different story. Now that we're able to measure that for a non-ridiculous sum of money, we will soon be able to figure out how important telomerase activation might be for us.

There is one thing that we know for sure- getting cancer is bad for your and your family's quality of life, finances, and maybe your quantity of life. It would make me forget all about my telomere length. If it's a choice between a not very well-proven telomerase activation method that I may not even need, or perhaps significantly lowering my odds of getting a cancer diagnosis, I'll choose those lowered odds every time.

Edited by niner, 05 July 2013 - 02:50 AM.

[solarfingers]

Thanks Niner, that really brings it down to reality doesn't it? Are you taking Astragalus based products to lengthen telomeres?

[niner]

Are you taking Astragalus based products to lengthen telomeres?

Well, yes and no. At the moment I'm trying out a low dose of a conventional astragalus extract. I mostly just wanted to see if I noticed anything, which I can't say that I do. It's not enough to lengthen telomeres though. At some point in the future I'm going to get my telomere length distribution done, and might consider a course of telomerase activation if it seems like it's called for.

[Logic]

I am going through The Causes of Aging on Fightaging.org's site here: (see headings on right of page)
http://www.fightagin...mune-system.php

AGE's have been more or less covered here, although natural AGE blockers and breakers could use more research and discussion IMHO, as there seem to be a number of natural substances that have been missed.
http://www.longecity...aminoguanidine/

I touched on Amyloid Buildup and how minimising infection and inflammation with supps good for other mechanisms of aging is a good idea in an earlier post.

Next up is The Failing Adaptive Immune System.
http://www.fightagin...mune-system.php

As can be seen the main cause for the FAIS (I just coined a new acronym! ) seems to be Cytomegalovirus. (CMV)
CMV is part of the Herpes Simplex Virus (HSV) family, linked to Alzheimer's and other nasty diseases of aging.
As such it is a Lipid Coated Virus. (LCV (I just coined another new acronym! ))

Lipid Coatings can be stripped off of LCVs by EV Coconut Oil and Butylated HydroxyToluene. (BHT)
Note that BHT is also a very powerful anti-oxidant and that Turnbuckle compares it to C60oo in effectiveness.

My personal experience with it is that its pointless going drinking/partying if you have taken the stuff within 4 -5 days prior to doing so, but that its a great hangover cure post party.

I also note that after studies showing its efficiency as an anti-oxidant, lipid coated virus and bacteria killer and increased lifespan in rats; Big Pharma went to great lengths to do studies showing it caused cancer and get the results into the news.
The dosages used to cause said cancer were ridiculously high, but who pays attention to little details like dosage!?

This makes me think that BHT and related substances, like BHA, are worthy of further research and discussion too.


This ties in with Buildup of Amyloid Between Cells, discussed earlier, and the same Anti Pathogen Stack (APS)applies once again..!

It would seem that chronic low level infection is a big part of aging and that a good APS is worthy of more research and discussion IMHO.

https://www.google.c...cytomegalovirus

http://www.lauric.org/lcv.html

[niner]

Lipid Coatings can be stripped off of LCVs by EV Coconut Oil and Butylated HydroxyToluene. (BHT)
Note that BHT is also a very powerful anti-oxidant and that Turnbuckle compares it to C60oo in effectiveness.

My personal experience with it is that its pointless going drinking/partying if you have taken the stuff within 4 -5 days prior to doing so, but that its a great hangover cure post party.

I also note that after studies showing its efficiency as an anti-oxidant, lipid coated virus and bacteria killer and increased lifespan in rats; Big Pharma went to great lengths to do studies showing it caused cancer and get the results into the news.
The dosages used to cause said cancer were ridiculously high, but who pays attention to little details like dosage!?

BHT is an alcohol buzz-killer? That's very interesting, since that's one of the unfortunate side effects of c60, too. Does this mean that the EtOH high is dependent on oxidative damage?

Once you're infected with a virus, the coating is no longer an issue, at least for the virus that infected you. If it's going to manufacture a bunch of new viri, then maybe stripping the coating would be a way to get at them before they further infect you. It would seem that to be effective as a shield against infection, you'd need to have a constant therapeutic level on board. Since coconut oil is a food, it's designed to be metabolized, and is trapped in the digestive tract until that happens. Thus you'd never have coconut oil in circulation. Or is it the lauric acid that does the trick? If so, EVCO isn't yet ruled out. We still have the issue of the therapeutic level needed. Do you know what concentration is required for virus killing? I'd expect this to be hard to maintain with a food that's meant to be metabolized, but it sounds like BHT has pretty good pharmacokinetics. Is it possible to take enough of either of these compounds to have an anti-viral effect?

The part about Big Pharma sounds awfully conspiracy theoretic. Was this a NaturalNews production? The only BHT/cancer work I'm aware of shows that it prevents cancer, but I haven't looked at that literature in years. BHT used to be added to all sorts of packaged food as a preservative, but the granola-heads were so freaked out about the looming danger of "preservatives" that Big Food went to great lengths to take them out of their products. Now "No Preservatives" is a selling point.

[solarfingers]

I am going through The Causes of Aging on Fightaging.org's site here: (see headings on right of page)
http://www.fightagin...mune-system.php

AGE's have been more or less covered here, although natural AGE blockers and breakers could use more research and discussion IMHO, as there seem to be a number of natural substances that have been missed.
http://www.longecity...aminoguanidine/

I touched on Amyloid Buildup and how minimising infection and inflammation with supps good for other mechanisms of aging is a good idea in an earlier post.

Next up is The Failing Adaptive Immune System.
http://www.fightagin...mune-system.php

As can be seen the main cause for the FAIS (I just coined a new acronym! ) seems to be Cytomegalovirus. (CMV)
CMV is part of the Herpes Simplex Virus (HSV) family, linked to Alzheimer's and other nasty diseases of aging.
As such it is a Lipid Coated Virus. (LCV (I just coined another new acronym! ))

Lipid Coatings can be stripped off of LCVs by EV Coconut Oil and Butylated HydroxyToluene. (BHT)
Note that BHT is also a very powerful anti-oxidant and that Turnbuckle compares it to C60oo in effectiveness.

My personal experience with it is that its pointless going drinking/partying if you have taken the stuff within 4 -5 days prior to doing so, but that its a great hangover cure post party.

I also note that after studies showing its efficiency as an anti-oxidant, lipid coated virus and bacteria killer and increased lifespan in rats; Big Pharma went to great lengths to do studies showing it caused cancer and get the results into the news.

The dosages used to cause said cancer were ridiculously high, but who pays attention to little details like dosage!?

This makes me think that BHT and related substances, like BHA, are worthy of further research and discussion too.

This ties in with Buildup of Amyloid Between Cells, discussed earlier, and the same Anti Pathogen Stack (APS)applies once again..!

It would seem that chronic low level infection is a big part of aging and that a good APS is worthy of more research and discussion IMHO.

https://www.google.c...cytomegalovirus

http://www.lauric.org/lcv.html

Thanks for the new source. I know I've seen this site in the past but did not make the link. It likely isn't coincidental that you and I are both thinking about many of the same things. Fightaging.org lists eight major causes where Vince lists fourteen. I am thinking that most of these are really just subcategories that address effects caused by Grey's 7 SENS causes of aging.

For example, the failing adaptive immune system. I would think that one of the main reasons we lose T Cells is because as we age we loose stem cells. If we lose 50% of our stem cells by the time we are 50 years of age we are 50% less likely to replace T Cells lost to the evils assaulting our bodies.

"Our immune system has evolved to very efficiently get rid of acute infections in young bodies but it has not been selected to get rid of subclinical viral infections in old age"

This would explain why CMV can have such a dramatic affect on us as we age. I would think that a two tiered approach would make sense. One, fighting CMV directly through supplementation and two, encouraging our body's proliferation of stem cells so natural defenses could do their job.

BHT and BHA are new to me. I will give them some good consideration. As far as Amyloid buildup is concerned you might want to read Vince's thesis, "Autophagy – the housekeeper in every cell that fights aging."

"Autophagy is the way your cells “clean house” and “recycle the trash”. Along with the ubiquitin proteasome system, autophagy is one of the main methods that cells use to clear dysfunctional or misfolded proteins. Autophagy can clear any kind of trash: intracellular viruses, bacteria, damaged proteins, protein aggregates and subcellular organelles. Although autophagy has long been known to exist, only recently has there been a clear understanding of the genes and pathways related to it. This recent evidence suggests that the declining efficacy of autophagy may be a driver of many of the phenotypic phenomena of aging."

According to Vince, encouraging autophagy is one of the greatest things we can do to prevent aging. From what I can tell it spans at least five of the 7 SENS reasons for aging. If we can encourage cells to function at their optimum level we can prevent many of the problems of aging to begin with.

We know that we can energize our mitochondria through exercise and Vince suggests that it is one of the best ways for our bodies to "take out the trash." He also suggests the following:

16. Practical interventions to promote autophagy
There are a number of practical ways to promote autophagy. Specifically, in partial recap of the above:

• Fasting activates Autophagy - caloric restriction affects 5 molecular pathways that activate autophagy
• Sunlight, Vitamin D and Klotho activate Autophagy - there are three ways through which UV light, Vitamin D, and the Klotho pathway activate autophagy via inhibiting the insulin/IGF-1 pathway
• Rapamycin activates Autophagy - there are two ways through which mTOR inhibitors activate autophagy – TORC1 and TORC2 mechanisms
• Caffeine activates Autophagy - Caffeine can activate autophagy via an mTOR-dependent mechanism
• Green tea activates Autophagy - ECGC can activate autophagy via an mTOR-dependent mechanism
• Metformin activates Autophagy - metformin can activate autophagy via AMPK activation – mTOR-dependent and mTOR-independent mechanisms
• Lithium activates Autophagy - lithium and other compounds can activate autophagy by inhibiting inositol monophosphate and lower IP3 levels – an mTOR-independent mechanism
• Resveratrol activates Autophagy – there are four 4 ways through which resveratrol can activate autophagy – via mTOR-dependent and mTOR-independent mechanisms
• Spermidine activates Autophagy - how spermidine activates autophagy via histone protein deacetylation – mTOR-indepdendent mechanism
• Hypoxia activates Autophagy - intermittent hypoxia can increase autophagy via HIF-1a
• Phytosubstances which activate the Nrf2 pathway can activate Autophagy. These are many and include soy products and hot chili peppers

Of these Vitamin D, Caffeine, Green Tea and Resveratrol are readily available and are on our list. I know you have discussed Lithium in the past and it seems to be relatively accessible here in the US. I wonder if ester-C would also fulfill that role. I think that Lithium has other benefits that I would like to explore such as it's nootropic effects. It would also be an interesting study to determine which phytosubstances may play a role in autophagy.

[solarfingers]

If so, EVCO isn't yet ruled out.

I know it's off topic but I found this very interesting and it might be an explanation as to why EVCO is so effective. You are likely aware of this but I found it interesting to say the least. In Vince's third half of his thesis, "PART 3: Slaying Two Dragons with the Sound of Silence..." he says the following.

SIRT6 – The ‘Split End Repair” and the “gene silencing signatures” of SIRT6
Whereas SIRT2 was primarily involved with transcription factor deacetylation and H4K16 mediated gene silencing, SIRT6 appears to have multiple roles in maintaining telomere integrity, preventing telomere fusions, and DNA repair. It does have a secondary role in in gene silencing via two other unique “silencing signatures”, but the other functions appear to be more important than gene silencing....

As to which a commenter responds with:

fullerene C60 results in increased expression of SIRT6 mRNA – http://rgd.mcw.edu/r...3128&id=1305216

So, it seems our friend c60-oo just may be a very magic bullet and this adds to Logic's and my discussion to DNA repair as well...

[niner]

As to which a commenter responds with:

fullerene C60 results in increased expression of SIRT6 mRNA – http://rgd.mcw.edu/r...3128&id=1305216

So, it seems our friend c60-oo just may be a very magic bullet and this adds to Logic's and my discussion to DNA repair as well...

I don't have high hopes for this. If you track back to the original research this substance/gene expression connection came from, it turns out to be rats that breathed c60 dust six hours a day for a month. The gene expression changes that they saw were related to the immune response to particulates in the alveoli.

[Logic]

BHT is an alcohol buzz-killer? That's very interesting, since that's one of the unfortunate side effects of c60, too. Does this mean that the EtOH high is dependent on oxidative damage?

Perhaps by this mechanism Niner?

BHT blocks NF-kappaB activation and ethanol-induced brain damage.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17067360

Once you're infected with a virus, the coating is no longer an issue, at least for the virus that infected you. If it's going to manufacture a bunch of new viri, then maybe stripping the coating would be a way to get at them before they further infect you. It would seem that to be effective as a shield against infection, you'd need to have a constant therapeutic level on board. Since coconut oil is a food, it's designed to be metabolized, and is trapped in the digestive tract until that happens. Thus you'd never have coconut oil in circulation. Or is it the lauric acid that does the trick? If so, EVCO isn't yet ruled out. We still have the issue of the therapeutic level needed. Do you know what concentration is required for virus killing? I'd expect this to be hard to maintain with a food that's meant to be metabolized, but it sounds like BHT has pretty good pharmacokinetics. Is it possible to take enough of either of these compounds to have an anti-viral effect?

Yes its the lauric acid, but I think it may synergise with the other acids in coconut oil to strip the lipid layer of both virii and bacteria that have one:
http://aac.asm.org/c...5/1/67.abstract

The dosage seems pretty low at 0.2 μM too?

Further peer reviewed research:
http://coconutoil.com/peer_reviewed/
http://coconutresear...arch Center.pdf

The part about Big Pharma sounds awfully conspiracy theoretic. Was this a NaturalNews production? The only BHT/cancer work I'm aware of shows that it prevents cancer, but I haven't looked at that literature in years. BHT used to be added to all sorts of packaged food as a preservative, but the granola-heads were so freaked out about the looming danger of "preservatives" that Big Food went to great lengths to take them out of their products. Now "No Preservatives" is a selling point.

The post quoted summarises the research on BHT pretty well, and the whole thread gives a good idea of peoples views and misconceptions on the subject.
http://www.forumforp...lu/1462552757/0

BHT’s Use as an Antiviral

Based on an article by Ed Sharpe

A little over 25 years ago a paper was published in the journal Science showing that BHT, a common food preservative, could inactivate herpes simplex and other lipid-coated viruses in lab dishes 1. Two years later another paper in the same journal reported similar results, but this time in live animals — dietary BHT could prevent chickens from dying of Newcastle disease 2. Like herpes simplex, NDV (the virus that causes Newcastle disease) is lipid-enveloped — its nucleic acid core is sheathed in a fatty membrane. Viruses of this type require an intact membrane to be infective. BHT seems to work against such viruses by disrupting their viral membranes.

In the chicken study cited above, the amount of BHT needed to inhibit NDV turned out to be equal to the amount already present in chicken feed as an additive, i.e., 100 to 200 parts per million of total diet 2. Assuming a comparable result for humans and a total food intake of about 2 kilograms per day, this would mean that 200 to 400 milligrams of BHT ingested daily should be adequate to protect most people from infection by herpes and other lipid-coated viruses.

Inspired by early scientific reports on the antiviral activity of BHT, a number of people suffering from herpes began to experiment on themselves in the late 1970s. As described in several books published a few years later, the BHT experimenters discovered that a daily dose of 250 to 1000 mg resulted in rapid recovery from herpes eruptions with no recurrences 3, 4.

Studies performed since then have confirmed the activity of BHT against many different human and animal viruses, including such members of the herpes family as CMV (cytomegalovirus) 5, pseudorabies 6 and genital herpes 7. BHT appears to inhibit infectivity of HIV 8, the AIDS virus, although contradictory results have also been reported 9. A protective effect of BHT against the development of influenza infection has been shown 10, 11. The mechanism involved may have to do with the fact that BHT is a highly potent, membrane-active antioxidant as well as a membrane fluidizer. It’s known that reactive oxygen species (ROS) play a role in the pathogenesis of viral infections — including RNA viruses such as influenza, DNA viruses such as hepatitis B, and retroviruses such as HIV — and it’s been suggested that antioxidants may be useful as therapeutic agents in such infections 12.

If BHT is so effective against lipid-enveloped viruses, why don’t doctors prescribe it for their patients? The answer is that almost none of the controlled studies on the antiviral properties of BHT have been performed on humans; most of the experiments thus far have been conducted in lab dishes (in vitro) or in animals. A human clinical trial of BHT cannot be performed because the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has approved BHT for use only as a food preservative, not as a medicine 4. But that hasn’t stopped some people from using BHT on their own to treat herpes or other viral conditions.

In the past, safety concerns have been sometimes raised about BHT because of its reputed toxicity when given to rats in massive doses — doses much larger than those usually consumed for their antiviral effect. On the other hand, 25 years is long enough for any adverse effects as well as positive benefits to have shown up in humans. Many individuals — including my friend Roger, whom I’ve known since high school — have been supplementing with BHT on a regular basis for years at a time. Roger looks pretty healthy to me these days, but I phoned him anyway to press him for details on his BHT experience.

Roger first began taking BHT in 1984 after reading about it in Pearson and Shaw’s groundbreaking book 3. Initially he took about 1 gram per day because he was buying BHT in bulk at the time and larger amounts were easier to measure out than smaller ones. Later he was able to obtain BHT in capsules containing 250 mg per cap, and from that point on he took 250 mg every day for 6 to 7 years. Not surprisingly, during this period he remained completely free of herpes eruptions. More surprising is that he still remains herpes-free to this day, 10 years after his last dose of BHT. Around 3 years ago Roger had a comprehensive physical exam, including blood work. His physician told him that no antibodies to the herpes simplex virus could be found in his system.

Today Roger’s health is generally excellent, with no indication that his years of supplementing with BHT have harmed him in any way. The only adverse effect he ever encountered happened early on, while he was still experimenting with the size of the dose. Roger found that taking 3 grams of BHT each day resulted in dizziness and disorientation, which quickly disappeared when he cut his dose back to 1 gram per day. No adverse effects were seen thereafter.

Of course, a sample of one doesn’t constitute much of a survey. I needed to consult a larger database, so I turned to Steven Fowkes, resident guru at the Cognitive Enhancement Research Institute (CERI) in Menlo Park, California and co-author of Wipe Out Herpes with BHT 4. Steve Fowkes was unequivocal in his judgment. In the decades since BHT first arrived on the supplement scene, Steve hasn’t heard of any adverse reactions other than two minor ones. First, BHT can cause hives in some people who are sensitive to it. Second, BHT can cause a temporary decrease in blood clotting when people first begin taking it in substantial doses.

Allergic sensitivities to food additives such as dyes and preservatives have been known for some time but the role of these additives in precipitating chronic urticaria (hives) or other symptoms is still a matter of debate 13, 14. Only a few cases over the years have identified low-level BHT intake as the sole cause of hives 15, 16, so this reaction is not likely to be very common; however, it may well become more common if provoked by large doses of BHT. Fortunately, the condition tends to clear up after BHT use is halted.

As for the transient blood-thinning effect, Steve cautioned that people who have never taken BHT before should acclimatize themselves by starting out with small doses (less than 250 mg for the first day, if possible) and ramping up gradually over the course of a week; there is a special need for caution among those who are taking anticoagulants at the same time. In no case should the final dose exceed 1 gram per day without medical supervision. BHT’s anticlotting effect will diminish within 2 days in any event, unless extremely high doses (around 5 grams per day or higher) are being taken.

But what about liver toxicity? BHT gets metabolized in the liver, so won’t taking large amounts compromise liver function? Steve’s response was that he has spoken with literally hundreds of people who have successfully treated themselves for herpes with BHT. So long as a dose level of 1 gram per day was not exceeded, no cases of hepatic injury (as determined by pathologically high serum levels of the liver enzymes ALT and AST) have yet been reported by this group.

Unfortunately, some people taking BHT will find that not even 1 gram per day is sufficient to eradicate herpes. Rather than increasing the dose to more than a gram per day, Steve suggests maintaining the BHT level while combining it with other supplements. For example, the combination of BHT with hypericin (from St. John’s Wort) is a synergistic antiviral combination, more effective than BHT alone. To determine an appropriate dose level, hypericin intake should be ramped up gradually from 1 mg per day until an effective dose is reached, usually 10 mg per day or less. Steve also recommended pulsing the hypericin at the effective dose level, i.e., using it for about a week at a time with time off between dosing episodes. Because hypericin can cause photosensitivity of the skin, sun exposure should be limited to half the usual daily amount during and after hypericin intake. One of the nice features of BHT is that it tends to inhibit any oxidative stress induced by hypericin; for this reason, Steve feels that anyone taking hypericin should always take BHT with it. (For more information on hypericin, see the reference articles on the LifeLink website.)

After talking with Steve Fowkes and reviewing the scientific literature, I’ve concluded that the benefits of taking BHT seem to greatly outweigh the risks. In the process of researching this article I was reminded of a fundamental principle of toxicology first enunciated around 500 years ago by Paracelsus, the great Renaissance physician and alchemist: “All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison. The correct dose differentiates a poison from a remedy.” Or in the present case, “the correct dose differentiates a remedy from a food additive.”

References

[1] Snipes W, Person S, Keith A, Cupp J. Butylated hydroxytoluene inactivates lipid-containing viruses. Science. 1975;188(4183):64-6.

[2] Brugh M Jr. Butylated hydroxytoluene protects chickens exposed to Newcastle disease virus. Science. 1977;197(4310):1291-2.

[3] Pearson D, Shaw S. Life Extension: A Practical Scientific Approach. New York, NY: Warner Books, Inc.; 1982:206-207.

[4] Mann JA, Fowkes SW. Wipe Out Herpes with BHT. Manhattan Beach, Calif: MegaHealth Society; 1983.

[5] Kim KS, Moon HM, Sapienza V, Carp RI, Pullarkat R. Inactivation of cytomegalovirus and Semliki Forest virus by butylated hydroxytoluene. J Infect Dis 1978;138(1):91-4.

[6] Pirtle EC, Sacks JM, Nachman RJ. Antiviral effectiveness of butylated hydroxytoluene against pseudorabies (Aujeszky’s disease) virus in cell culture, mice, and swine. Am J Vet Res. 1986;47(9):1892-5.

[7] Richards JT, Katz ME, Kern ER. Topical butylated hydroxytoluene treatment of genital herpes simplex virus infections of guinea pigs. Antiviral Res 1985;5(5):281-90.

[8] Aloia RC, Jensen FC, Curtain CC, Mobley PW, Gordon LM. Lipid composition and fluidity of the human immunodeficiency virus. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1988;85(3):900-4.

[9] Claeys H, Mercken M, Vermylen C. HIV1-virus is not inactivated by buthylated hydroxytoluene (BHT) in vitro. Med Hypotheses 1988;27(2):145-6.

[10] Chetverikova LK, Ki’ldivatov II, Inozemtseva LI, Kramskaia TA, Filippov VK, Frolov BA. Factors of antiviral resistance in the pathogenesis of influenza in mice [in Russian]. Vestn Akad Med Nauk SSSR 1989;(11):63-8.

[11] Chetverikova LK, Inozemtseva LI. Role of lipid peroxidation in the pathogenesis of influenza and search for antiviral protective agents [in Russian]. Vestn Ross Akad Med Nauk 1996;(3):37-40.

[12] Schwarz KB. Oxidative stress during viral infection: a review. Free Radic Biol Med 1996;21(5):641-9.

[13] Hannuksela M, Lahti A. Peroral challenge tests with food additives in urticaria and atopic dermatitis. Int J Dermatol 1986;25(3):178-80.

[14] Reus KE, Houben GF, Stam M, Dubois AE. Food additives as a cause of medical symptoms: relationship shown between sulfites and asthma and anaphylaxis; results of a literature review [in Dutch]. Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd 2000;144(38):1836-9.

[15] Moneret-Vautrin DA, Faure G, Bene MC. Chewing-gum preservative induced toxidermic vasculitis. Allergy 1986;41(7):546-8.

[16] Goodman DL, McDonnell JT, Nelson HS, Vaughan TR, Weber RW. Chronic urticaria exacerbated by the antioxidant food preservatives, butylated hydroxyanisole (BHA) and butylated hydroxytoluene (BHT). J Allergy Clin Immunol 1990;86(4 pt 1):570-5.

[17] [No authors listed.] Butylated hydroxytoluene (BHT). IARC Monogr Eval Carcinog Risk Chem Hum 1986;40:161-206.

[18] Ames BN, Gold LS. Chemical carcinogenesis: too many rodent carcinogens. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1990;87(19):7772-6. Full text accessible at http://socrates.berk...mes.PNASI.html.

[19] Kensler TW, Egner PA, Trush MA, Bueding E, Groopman JD. Modification of aflatoxin B1 binding to DNA in vivo in rats fed phenolic antioxidants, ethoxyquin and a dithiothione. Carcinogenesis 1985;6(5):759-63.

[20] Williams GM, Iatropoulos MJ. Inhibition of the hepatocarcinogenicity of aflatoxin B1 in rats by low levels of the phenolic antioxidants butylated hydroxyanisole and butylated hydroxytoluene. Cancer Lett 1996;104(1):49-53.

[21] McKee RH, Tometsko AM. Inhibition of promutagen activation by the antioxidants butylated hydroxyanisole and butylated hydroxytoluene. J Natl Cancer Inst 1979;63(2):473-7.

[22] Franklin RA. Butylated hydroxytoluene in sarcoma-prone dogs. Lancet 1976;1(7972):1296.

[JR7]

To quote Anti-Agingfirewalls.com in regards to absorption:

"This blog post touches on biological activities and health benefits of certain plant polyphenols (e.g. Resveratrol) as do a great many other postings over the years. It should be pointed out that for many plant polyphenols, biological impacts observed in vitro may not be fully realizable in vivo based on normal oral ingestion. There are several reasons for that. 1. Chemical structures can be altered by gut bacteria. Sometimes the gut biome helps us in this regard, an example being gut actions on the polyphenols in chocolate (protoanthocyanadins). But in states of altered gut micro biome, we can’t always count on the bacteria. 2. Poor absorption. This is a major issue with many of the polyphenols, especially curcumin. 3. Metabolism by the liver via the first pass effect, this destroys a lot of the polyphenols. The metabolites are not as good signaling compounds. 4. Glycosylation. This makes substances more water soluble, but then they are secreted faster. Also, glycosylation reduces the ability of a substance to become part of the mitochondrial membrane and work as a hydrophobic mitochondrial specific antioxidant. (I am now convinced that the chloroplast outer membranes are places where stress-defensive phytochemicals migrate to in plant cells. In us humans on the other hand, the mitochondrial membranes are where we can control excess baseline ROS leak that occurs in old mitochondria.) 5. Last of all, plant polyphenols tend to be very prone to oxidation. This means they are inactivated with heat (instantly) in water (4 hrs), and in the presence of oxygen, especially with cation catalysts like unliganded iron or copper"

My question is, what can be done SPECIFICALLY for resveratrol and curcumin for better absorption?

[solarfingers]

Jreinhal,

L-Carnosine, my favorite sup by far, is know to work synergisticaly with both Reseveratrol and Curcumin. Alpha-lipoic Acid is also a good teammate with other supplements. I'm not sure what would increase absorption except for the quality of the supplement. I have heard of micronized Resveratrol but have never seen it or tried it.

[solarfingers]

I have severely narrowed down my current regimen which you can see in my profile. I have decided that I will give Epitalon a try for a period of time and have reduced the number of supplements to what I believe are most essential to me with Epitalon. My primary motives were to cut the cost of my supplements in half to afford the Epitalon while still maintaining some of the benefits learned from attempting to reach the seven SENS targets. I am currently studying for certifications so I will likely not be updating this thread for some time but I will get back to it. You might find me making comments about my progress/supplementation in my blog.

[Luddist]

Great thread. The species of cinnamon in the list needs clarification though. What's commonly called cinnamon in the US is a different species than cinnamon sold in the rest of the world.

[Luddist]

And is there a reason for the first 6 substances having colored fields vs. the rest?

[solarfingers]

Well that does need clarification... not sure but I will look into it. I believe the cinnamon I have is from Saigon.

[solarfingers]

Now for a bit of fun...

[balance]

Hello solarfingers,

I've read a bit of your blog and thought I could aid you a bit. You're doing an excellent job but I think the regimen I outline below would be even more effective. I wrote the brands from the specific supplements down because as far as I know they are the most potent per capsule.
I wouldn't take blueberry as a supplement as it isn't very potent per capsule (that said I've gotten tremendous skin results from LEF's blueberry supplement). I'd recommend eating it instead. Instead of Choline bitartrate why not go for Alpha GPC and PS?
Also, I highly recommend you read Russell L. Blaylock's book Health and Nutrition Secrets that could save your life.


Empty stomach min 4x daily, to bowel tolerance:
Wholesale nutrition vitamin c potassium ascorbate, providing max 2800mg potassium
OR Nutribiotic sodium ascorbate

Empty stomach:
2-3 Jarrow L-Carnosine 500mg
1 Geronova Lipoic acid Na-Rala 300mg
1 Biotivia TR resveratrol 500mg
3 Swanson Fisetin 100mg

Empty stomach different time of day, taken separately:
3 Swanson Acetyl-l-carnitine arginate 500mg
3 NOW TMG 1000mg
1-2 Life extension mega green tea extract decaff
1 scoop Immunopro whey
1 Jarrow ultra dophilus 50billion
2 life time hyaluronic acid 140mg
2 swanson hyaljoint 100mg

Breakfast, fat, meal:
2 OmegaVia pharmaceutical grade 90% concentrated omega 3 1105mg per softgel
1 Doctor's best vitamin d3 1000iu-2000iu softgel
1 Relentless improvement k2 mk-4 15mg
2-4 Doctor's best magnesium glycinate 100mg / Doctor's Best Brain mag threonate 150mg
0.5 Life extension gamma E + tocotrienols
1 Source naturals methyl B-12 1mg sublingual
1 Life extension DHEA 25mg sublingual
1 Life extension Melatonin 10mg
1 NOW foods Rhodiola 500mg
1 Swanson P5P 50mg
1 Macushield
2 Swanson creatine 1000mg
1 Source naturals Taurine 1000mg
1-4 Swanson lithium orotate 5mg
2 Cardiovascular research Triacetyl-uridine 25mg
1 AOV zinc citrate 15mg
1 Epic4health CoQ10 Ubiquinol 300mg
2 Jarrow Fulvic acid 200mg
1 Swanson PQQ 20mg
1-2 Life extension pomegranate 500mg
1-2 Life Extension bio-curcumin 400mg
1 Swanson grapeseed extract 90% 500mg
1 Jarrow Astaxanthin 12mg softgels
1-3 Doctor's best Benfotiamine 300mg
1 Life extension Certified european milk thistle 750mg
1 Biotivia pterostilbene 250mg
1 Jarrow quercetin 500mg
1 Swanson 5-lox 125mg
1 Fucoidan 300mg
1 LutiMax Luteolin 100-1600mg
1 Jarrow Broccomax Sulforaphane 30mg
2 Olympian labs DIM 150mg
0.5 Life Extension super selenium complex
1 biotin 1mg (if taking r-lipoic acid)
1 cycloastragenol 50mg
2 astragaloside IV 50mg
1 saikosaponin A 4mg

Only if taking plenty of ascorbic acid/ascorbate vitamin C and/or nonmeat:
1 Swanson copper 2mg

Edited by piet3r, 22 July 2013 - 11:30 PM.

[solarfingers]

Piet3r, that's a long list. I would like to understand your reasons for your choices. The reason for taking the Blueberry Extract is because it works in tandem with L-Carnosine to stimulate stem cell production...

Thanks...

[balance]

Hey solarfingers,

I am not opposed to consumption of blueberries at all, in fact, I promote it. I just don't think it's an economical way of doing it via supplements whereas with something like green tea or pomegranate (at least the specific ones I've listed) it does make a lot of sense.

Sure, we can talk in private about the list, so that it does not hamper your fine thread here.

[solarfingers]

Piet3r, have you a thread where you discuss your supplemental choices?

[balance]

Momentarily not, I used to have one many years ago but it is no longer relevant. I can discuss my choices with you in private it's no problem that way we don't hijack the thread.