42 replies to this topic

[Dolph]

By the way, "free-radical disease" is the most hilarious woo I read for quite some time

Oh really ? The people who quickly "woo" things are far more ridiculous IMO

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22903797
ROS-related disease can be either due to a lack of ROS (e.g., chronic granulomatous disease, certain autoimmune disorders) or a surplus of ROS (e.g., cardiovascular and neurodegenerative diseases)

The publication you link claims that, just like you do. But without any evidence whatsoever. And by the way, the authors even state that antioxidants don't work for the diseases they claim to be free-oxidant related!

[majkinetor]

And by the way, the authors even state that antioxidants don't work for the diseases they claim to be free-oxidant related!

Perhaps re-read ? Add Piracetam for mind clearness ?

Edited by majkinetor, 24 July 2013 - 02:40 PM.

[Dolph]

Perhaps re-read ? Add Piracetam for mind clearness ?

"For diseases caused by a surplus of ROS, antioxidant supplementation has proven largely ineffective in clinical studies, most probably because their action is too late, too little, and too non-specific. Specific inhibition of ROS-producing enzymes is an approach more promising of clinical efficacy."


NO PROOF WHATSOEVER. Only a sickening amount of hot and thin air. The authors claim there maybe could be something if and if and if...

Edited by Dolph, 24 July 2013 - 02:45 PM.

[majkinetor]

And you talk to God directly ? Sickening ? WTF? Do you even know how science works ?

But that is not the point anyway. The point was that what you claim is hilarious woo is actually well known phenomena.

Edited by majkinetor, 24 July 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[Dolph]

It's the one who claims something who has to prove it!
I also can write a paper about chocalatebars with added mustard and some yet to develop secret ingredient "maybe" being an effective treatment for erectile dysfunction. The problem is, that people like you would open a thread here and rave about it.

[majkinetor]

Thats actually not so bad idea, mustard boost testosterone levels and ....

Here is one free book to let you start with correct dosage. After you read it, I will provide you 10 more.
http://www.injectabl...m/download.html

.... talking about correct dose and ...

[hamishm00]

If something doesn't "work" better or even worse than placebo it doesn't work by definition. That's common sense!

Well, I meant the practical experimentation with for example vitamin C in high doses itself. I never used sun-creams and I always got some sunburns at the beginning of the swimming season. Now since 5 years I haven't had a sun burn. Admittedly not compared to placebo. Maybe I'm mutating?

Or your skin is becoming like leather because you're an old bastard ;-)

Edited by hamishm00, 25 July 2013 - 04:03 AM.

[pamojja]

Of course not. My mother 30 years older than me with more leather like skin (don't really understand the derogatory language in respect to older people here?) and avoiding the sun like the plaque because of a sun-allergy, still get red patches at times. My father from gardening work (he only 'sunbathes' under umbrellas otherwise). While I flew to India last Winter and explicitly sunbathed right away at least 2 hrs every day the whole of January.

That was just an ironically meant example where Dolph's 'common sense' could take:

If something doesn't "work" better or even worse than placebo it doesn't work by definition. That's common sense!

So if something hasn't been investigated through a RCT - even though it showed a particular effect in your repeated experience - it doesn't work by definition?

Following this narrow-minded definition I should drop the high dose nutrients, and life with a pain-free walking distance of 400 meter only?
Let my hay-fever flare up again and get sun burned?
(of course, in the last 5 years I experimented already with decreased nutrients intakes..)

If I applied this logic it would amount to self-destructive madness to me! Not common sense.

[Dolph]

So if something hasn't been investigated through a RCT - even though it showed a particular effect in your repeated experience - it doesn't work by definition?

Oh come on, you don't believe that yourself. do you? It's the same hogwash homeopaths and quacks of all kind spew out every day... "But it worked on me." No, it didn't, you are a victim either of placebo effect or of own stupidity. Or both.

Go out and lay down a few hours into midday sun and come back tomorrow if you didn't get a sunburn "protected" by Vitamin C! It's so ridiculous it's not even really worth to answer this nonsense.

[pamojja]

It's so ridiculous it's not even really worth to answer this nonsense.

It's only ridiculous if you don't understand how much such medical conditions can change you life for the worse for ever.

Since you don't seem to be aware of this dimension in my experience at all, why you continue to add your unreflected non-answers to it?

[pamojja]

... - I love the many beneficial side effects. Like not having had even one sun-burn since I use antioxidants - now almost since 5 years. Now I wouldn't want to trade that for a hormetic response I overstretched so much all my life...

... I meant the practical experimentation with for example vitamin C in high doses itself.

... Go out and lay down a few hours into midday sun and come back tomorrow if you didn't get a sunburn "protected" by Vitamin C! It's so ridiculous it's not even really worth to answer this nonsense.

Seemed I myself to have caused some confusion here.

Though I'm pretty sure Pauling's regime against CAD, with it's main therapeutic ingredients of Vitamin C (6-18g/d) and L-Lysine (5-6g/d) along with a high dose multi, 1 or 2 of B-Vitamins/day and some more - are the main factor for the improvement from 400 m to about 8 km pain-free walking distance. Or a teaspoon of ascorbic acid alone for getting rid any hay-fewer symptoms for a few hours. - All along I suspected more the fat-soluble antioxidants being responsible for not being sunburned, like high dose Lycopene in combination with all others.

[Dolph]

like high dose Lycopene

This actually seems plausible. It won't give you much protection but if one is not too fair skinned it might make the difference between being burned and being tanned.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16465309

[pamojja]

And just today this news in my mailbox by NS:

News
Copyright © 2013 Natural Standard (www.naturalstandard.com)
July 2013


Integrative Therapies for Sun Protection and Skin Health

Skin cancer is the most common form of cancer in the United States. Skin care and protection against the sun are important year-round, but especially throughout the summer months when sun exposure is at its peak.

Natural Standard highlights several integrative therapies that have been studied for their potential to protect the skin from the sun and to treat damage.

Lycopene: The use of lycopene together with other nutrients such as beta-carotene, vitamin C, and vitamin E has been suggested as a possible way to protect skin from sun damage. Lycopene-rich tomato paste has also been suggested as a sun protection method. Although benefits have been seen in small studies, more research is needed before a firm conclusion may be made.

Polypodium leucotomos: Extracts of fern species (family Polypodiaceae) have been used traditionally for numerous indications, most commonly in South America and Europe. The South American species Polypodium leucotomos L. is commonly known as "calaguala." Extracts of this species, called "anapsos," have been marketed and used as a treatment for multiple indications. Early study shows that polypodium may help to prevent sunburn, skin aging, and skin cancers resulting from uncontrolled overexposure of human skin to solar UV radiation (UVA and UVB). Further research is needed to confirm these results.

Vitamin A: Some studies suggest that topical tretinoin (all-trans retinoic acid, the acid form of vitamin A) may improve the appearance and integrity of photodamaged skin. Common adverse effects are skin pain and redness.

Pomegranate: One pomegranate delivers about 40 percent of an adult's daily vitamin C requirement and is high in antioxidants, which are thought to help reduce the risk of certain diseases. Taking pomegranate extract by mouth may reduce damage to the skin caused by exposure to UV rays. More studies in this area are needed.

Selenium: Sun protection was initially observed in preliminary research using selenium supplementation and other antioxidants, although there is some evidence of ineffectiveness in preventing light-induced skin redness. More studies are needed.

For more information about integrative therapies for skin care and sun protection, please visit Natural Standard's Comparative Effectiveness Database.

To comment on this story, please visit Natural Standard's blog.
References

• Natural Standard: The Authority on Integrative Medicine. www.naturalstandard.com

Except the fern I've all of these well covered.