92 replies to this topic

[balance]

As soon as my new K2 order arrives (Complementary Prescriptions, 15mg), I´ll try a week of 45mg daily, to see if I notice any effect on my teeth (enamel, dentin, plaque, etc.)...

During that week, I'll also increase my D3 daily intake (to 10.000iu), since the K2 mega-dose guarantees me a good "backup", as I consider critical the ratio of D to K...

Remember it's not just a D & K ratio but also vit A is critical. Keep daily total intake of retinol below 3000iu just to be sure. That said I think you're going too high with the 10,000iu vit D3 and also, a week of 45mg is way too short to notice an effect on your teeth. More like 3-6 months daily.

[1kgcoffee]

I agree with piet3r, in fact, Id leave out the vitamin D entirely for now. Fill your K-tank up. Let your body build up a decent size reserve of vitamin K in fatty tissue. It will certainly take more than a week. Maybe you'll notice an effect in a few months.

Cut all simple sugars out of your diet and keep in mind that excess retinol will make your teeth brittle.

[bugme]

Thanks both piet3r and 1kgcoffee... Regarding vitamin A, I prefer the pro-vitamin form (beta-carotene 5.000-10.000iu a day)... I would prefer to incorporate vitamin A through carrots, but I don´t like them at all :-(

"The liver looks at the vitamin K and D levels and adjusts the amount of vitamin A in proportion to your body - - -so eat your carrots - - - beta carotene is far safer than taking vitamin A." (source: http://www.k-vitamin...p?page=My_Story)

I will also try this tooth soap a couple of months (http://www.toothsoap...int-tooth-soap/) in order to help topically to remineralization... if that´s really possible...

[balance]

Thanks both piet3r and 1kgcoffee... Regarding vitamin A, I prefer the pro-vitamin form (beta-carotene 5.000-10.000iu a day)... I would prefer to incorporate vitamin A through carrots, but I don´t like them at all :-(

"The liver looks at the vitamin K and D levels and adjusts the amount of vitamin A in proportion to your body - - -so eat your carrots - - - beta carotene is far safer than taking vitamin A." (source: http://www.k-vitamin...p?page=My_Story)

There are some benefits of vitamin A (retinol) that beta carotene does not do. Regardless you can use beta carotene but just make sure your total daily retinol intake is below 3000iu.

[ta5]

Thanks both piet3r and 1kgcoffee... Regarding vitamin A, I prefer the pro-vitamin form (beta-carotene 5.000-10.000iu a day)... I would prefer to incorporate vitamin A through carrots, but I don´t like them at all :-(

"The liver looks at the vitamin K and D levels and adjusts the amount of vitamin A in proportion to your body - - -so eat your carrots - - - beta carotene is far safer than taking vitamin A." (source: http://www.k-vitamin...p?page=My_Story)

I will also try this tooth soap a couple of months (http://www.toothsoap...int-tooth-soap/) in order to help topically to remineralization... if that´s really possible...

I'm not aware of any evidence for toothsoap. Something with NovaMin might actually help. The magnified images in the NuPro brochure are impressive (NuPro is a prophy paste with NovaMin made by Sensodyne). There are also articles on pubmed that talk about NovaMin.

[Luminosity]

Bugme, that toothsoap made no claims for remineralization. It was really expensive too. I'm not aware of an alternative but I know what the raw materials cost and that isn't reasonable. If you need it though, you need it.

Does anyone know where you can buy pure Novamin?

[bugme]

You´re right, Luminosity... The best -and cheap- alternative I´ve found is Dr. Bronner's Magic Liquid Soap... http://www.drbronner...dLiquidSoap.htm

Anyway, I understand that -actually- the remineralization process is done by our own saliva (which carries the adequate minerals), so what I look into these toothpastes is they don´t let a glycerin layer on the enamel, thus allowing remineralization...

Edited by bugme, 02 September 2013 - 03:07 AM.

[Luminosity]

Thanks for the clarification.

We're told from childhood that we need to brush our teeth twice a day, use fluoride, and get our teeth filled with mercury. Then it turns out not to be true. First mercury fillings are no good. O.K. We had to know mercury was not good. Then fluoride. O.K. Then the artificial ingredients in toothpaste bother some people. Then mint, and other flavorings can be bothersome. Of course the alcohol in mouthwash is no good. Then Sodium Lauryl Sulfide is bad. Then baking soda is abrasive. Then some toothbrushes are too abrasive. Then I read that hydrated silica is abrasive. Now, glycerin. It's like a slowly deflating balloon. I guess the next step is for someone to invent a toothpaste made out of nothing.

You can buy pure Peelu fibers from Swansons, and pure xylitol packets too. My friend used to obtain pharmaceutical grade chalk powder from a pharmacy to use as a tooth powder. They no longer carry it but it might exist somewhere. I will think about Dr. Bronners.

Well, someone please invent the next generation tooth products because I'm sick of mixing things up in my apartment.

Soap might be too alkaline. If you can find a way to make it the same ph balance as your mouth, that might be best. If you take a ph balanced bar soap and mix it with water to make a liquid it my become more alkaline. I've had that happen.

Edited by Luminosity, 02 September 2013 - 03:32 AM.

[bugme]

I agree on your observations, Luminosity ... I just think that marketing wants to sell us that dental health is solely attributable to dental hygiene... And this is understandable: it is the only way to increasingly sell their products...

If tomorrow Colgate discovered that the use of, for example, vitamin K2 -so to speak- is able to reduce tartar, rest assured that they would begin to bomb us with the idea that dental hygiene "is much more than brushing teeth ":-P

In my opinion, oral hygiene is only 20% or 30% part of our dental health... The rest, I think, comes from our diet, supplementation, etc...

That's why I want to turn my saliva -through adequate amounts of K2, D3, magnesium, boron, etc. - in the perfect tool that can "repairs" my teeth constantly... And to allow that, the use of toothpastes that do not interfere with the remineralization process is a must...

Edited by bugme, 02 September 2013 - 04:08 AM.

[Luminosity]

Thanks for expanding my mind on this subject.

Also, on the ph balance of dental products, I guess the gums and inside of the mouth might have a different balance than the teeth. Hmmm. The teeth are probably more alkaline and the mouth slightly acidic? So that's not as useful as I thought earlier.

Consider the silica I think I wrote about earlier in this thread. Consider taking it orally and also using the Cola de Caballo liquid to swish around your teeth.

Judging from world history, Gin, black tea and overcast skies must be bad for the teeth. Taro, poi, sweet potatoes, fresh fish, fresh air, sunlight drinking nothing but water and exposure to the tropical seas must be good for the teeth.

[niner]

What's the source of the claim that glycerin prevents remineralization of teeth? Is this just an internet rumor gone wild, or is there some basis to it? Glycerin is a natural product that can be obtained from both plant and animal fats and oils. It's a sugar alcohol like xylitol- why is one bad and the other good? Glycerin can be consumed as a food. It's water soluble. All told, these don't sound like the qualities of the Worst Thing Ever for teeth. So what's the deal on this? Is there any objective evidence that glycerin prevents remineralization to a significant extent, or is this just a story made up by a "natural toothpaste" vendor that happens to resonate with the paranoid?

[Luminosity]

Niner, did you get the invitation I sent asking you where we could buy pure Novamin or other similar products? If, so do you know the answer?

[Turnbuckle]

I've taken K2 for several years, and for ten years I've used a SrCl2 mouthwash twice a week and taken SrCO3 as a supplement. Over that time I've had zero cavities. Studies haven't backed up the usefulness of strontium in toothpaste, however, I'm not using it that way. For remineralization using toothpastes, this study is interesting--

The purpose of this study was to examine the remineralizing potential of different toothpaste formulations: toothpastes containing bioactive glass, hydroxyapatite, or strontium acetate with fluoride, when applied to demineralized enamel. Results obtained by scanning electron microscopy (SEM) and SEM/energy dispersive X-ray analyses proved that the hydroxyapatite and bioactive glass-containing toothpastes were highly efficient in promoting enamel remineralization by formation of deposits and a protective layer on the surface of the demineralized enamel...

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23659606

I see that there is a toothpaste called Restore with these ingredients. I have no personal experience with it.

[niner]

Niner, did you get the invitation I sent asking you where we could buy pure Novamin or other similar products? If, so do you know the answer?

I got it, but the identity of the thread was missing because the brain-dead invitation system deletes the link to the thread if you write anything. Sorry, it's pretty broken. I'd been meaning to ask you about that. I bought some GC MI Paste on Amazon. I wouldn't be surprised to find Novamin there. I'd just start by googling it. But wait... I just googled it, and it's not there. GSK sells Sensodyne Repair & Protect toothpaste, which contains Novamin, in much of the world. However, in the US, the Novamin is replaced with good old Stannous Fluoride. Very cutting edge. Apparently the FDA had an issue with the word "repair" in the name, which constitutes a health claim. It looks like rather than change the name, they changed the product. Weird. Now the health claim is ok? Here's where I found this story.

You might try ebay or one of the Canadian drug or supplement vendors. I've had no trouble getting things from Canada. Maybe Sarah Vaughter would sell it if you asked her. Or one of the UK internet vendors? AllDayChemist?

[bugme]

What's the source of the claim that glycerin prevents remineralization of teeth? Is this just an internet rumor gone wild, or is there some basis to it? Glycerin is a natural product that can be obtained from both plant and animal fats and oils. It's a sugar alcohol like xylitol- why is one bad and the other good? Glycerin can be consumed as a food. It's water soluble. All told, these don't sound like the qualities of the Worst Thing Ever for teeth. So what's the deal on this? Is there any objective evidence that glycerin prevents remineralization to a significant extent, or is this just a story made up by a "natural toothpaste" vendor that happens to resonate with the paranoid?

Niner,

The problem is with the petroleum-derived synthetic glycerin, which coats teeth and doesn't let them attract minerals...

Glycerin is supposed to be OK if it is naturally occurring (it´s biodegradable and soluble in alcohol and water)...

[niner]

What's the source of the claim that glycerin prevents remineralization of teeth? Is this just an internet rumor gone wild, or is there some basis to it? Glycerin is a natural product that can be obtained from both plant and animal fats and oils. It's a sugar alcohol like xylitol- why is one bad and the other good? Glycerin can be consumed as a food. It's water soluble. All told, these don't sound like the qualities of the Worst Thing Ever for teeth. So what's the deal on this? Is there any objective evidence that glycerin prevents remineralization to a significant extent, or is this just a story made up by a "natural toothpaste" vendor that happens to resonate with the paranoid?

The problem is with the petroleum-derived synthetic glycerin, which coats teeth and doesn't let them attract minerals...

Glycerin is supposed to be OK if it is naturally occurring (it´s biodegradable and soluble in alcohol and water)...

That can't be it, because glycerin is glycerin. Whether it's liberated from animal fat by boiling it with lye (which is how people used to make soap), or whether it's synthesized from some other feedstock, in the end it's the identical molecule, with identical properties. I'd seriously like to know: What is the evidence that glycerol is bad for teeth? Look at how similar it is to other sugar alcohols. Why are they good and glycerol is bad? A quick search of pubmed turns up nothing. My money is on "false internet rumor".

[bugme]

I´m not saying glycerine is bad "per se", but the negative side of it is its ability to create a sticky film on teeth that lasts for hours and thus prevents saliva can do its job...

[Luminosity]

Here's a listing of the ingredients in Restore fluoride free toothpaste from the Swanson's website:


Active ingredient: NovaMin (calcium sodium phosphosilicate) for Antihypersensitivity.
Other ingredients: Glycerin, amorphous silica, PEG 400, sodium lauryl sulphate, flavor, carbomer, potassium acesulfame, titanium dioxide.

http://www.swansonvi...free-4-oz-paste

Edited by Luminosity, 06 September 2013 - 05:34 AM.

[Luminosity]

/quote]
Niner,

Do you know where I could buy pure Novamin to make my own mouthwash? Do you think it would work if mixed with water?

Do you know where I could buy the other remineralization agents? Do you know if they would work if mixed with water and used as a mouthwash to remineralize the teeth?

Is there something I should do differently when trying to invite people to a thread?

Thanks.

[Luminosity]

I've taken K2 for several years, and for ten years I've used a SrCl2 mouthwash twice a week and taken SrCO3 as a supplement.

Would you mind sharing the brand and dose of the K2? What is SrCO3? Would you mind sharing the brand and dosing instructions? What is SrC12 mouthwash? Is there a good place to get these things?

Thanks.

[Turnbuckle]

I've taken K2 for several years, and for ten years I've used a SrCl2 mouthwash twice a week and taken SrCO3 as a supplement.

Would you mind sharing the brand and dose of the K2? What is SrCO3? Would you mind sharing the brand and dosing instructions? What is SrC12 mouthwash? Is there a good place to get these things?

Thanks.

I need to correct that. I was using the carbonate initially, but switched to the citrate (340 mg). The following is from my profile page--



----------------------------------------------------------
12. Dental
----------------------------------------------------------
Strontium citrate twice a week and strontium chloride mouthwash (homemade--20% anhydrous SrCl2 in water) once or twice a week. Result: no cavities in a decade. I take EDTA before and after every dental appointment to chelate mercury from amalgam fillings. I have very few such fillings now and feel better as a result.

Am now brushing with curcumin (or turmeric) twice a week in the shower for the whitening effect. Also very good for gums. Adding an equal part ascorbic acid makes it more effective.



As for the Vitamin K, this is K2, 5 mg. And I just buy whatever is cheapest at iherb. Generally Carlson Labs.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 06 September 2013 - 10:37 AM.

[meth_use_lah]

I got LEF k2 complex 10days ago and sensodyne repair and protect (with novamin) and my teeth look better than they have done in years! I wish I had taken a photo before I started.

I take

4K IU D3
LEF k2 complex
1x LEF 2 per day multi (containing D2)

300-400mg elemental magnesium from magnesium- citrate or malate during the day.

I brush my teeth with sensodyne repair and protect and keep the toothpaste in my mouth for 20-30 min before I spit it out, and I don't rinse after that.
I would prefer doing this with a fluoride free novamin toothpaste, and Ill probably order one if the shipping isn't too expensive.

After seeing the results I highly doubt glycerin interferes (significantly) with remineralization.

Edited by meth_use_lah, 06 September 2013 - 10:38 AM.

[niner]

I´m not saying glycerine is bad "per se", but the negative side of it is its ability to create a sticky film on teeth that lasts for hours and thus prevents saliva can do its job...

But why do you believe this when there is no evidence that it's true? As far as I can tell, it came from some site on the web that sells glycerine-free toothpaste. On the other hand, I can find evidence in the scientific literature that sugar alcohols (polyols) enhance remineralization:

Int J Dent. 2010;2010:981072. doi: 10.1155/2010/981072. Epub 2010 Jan 5.
Sugar alcohols, caries incidence, and remineralization of caries lesions: a literature review.
Mäkinen KK.

Institute of Dentistry, University of Turku, Lemminkäisenkatu 2, 20520 Turku, Finland.

Remineralization of minor enamel defects is a normal physiological process that is well known to clinicians and researchers in dentistry and oral biology. This process can be facilitated by various dietary and oral hygiene procedures and may also concern dentin caries lesions. Dental caries is reversible if detected and treated sufficiently early. Habitual use of xylitol, a sugar alcohol of the pentitol type, can be associated with significant reduction in caries incidence and with tooth remineralization. Other dietary polyols that can remarkably lower the incidence of caries include erythritol which is a tetritol-type alditol. Based on known molecular parameters of simple dietary alditols, it is conceivable to predict that their efficacy in caries prevention will follow the homologous series, that is, that the number of OH-groups present in the alditol molecule will determine the efficacy as follows: erythritol >/= xylitol > sorbitol. The possible difference between erythritol and xylitol must be confirmed in future clinical trials.

PMID: 20339492 PMCID: PMC2836749 Free PMC Article

Erythritol is a 4 carbon polyol, xylitol is a 5 carbon polyol, and sorbitol is a 6 carbon polyol. Glycerine is a 3 carbon polyol, and according to this series, should be EVEN BETTER at ENHANCING REMINERALIZATION than the other sugar alcohols.

Unless you can find some evidence that glycerine impairs remineralization, I think it's time to accept that this is an internet myth.

Edited by niner, 06 September 2013 - 07:31 PM.

[Luminosity]

I use xylitol as a mouthwash mixed with water. It feels nothing like glycerin. Glycerin has a fatty, oily texture. When I use the xylitol mouthwash, my teeth feel very clean and smooth, like a coating has been removed. When I use toothpaste containing glycerin, in contrast, my teeth don't feel as smooth and clean.

Niner, your statement seems overly strong. A mind is like a hand; if it is too open, everything falls through. If it is too closed, it can't hold what you want it to hold.

Edited by Luminosity, 07 September 2013 - 04:49 AM.

[niner]

I use xylitol as a mouthwash mixed with water. It feels nothing like glycerin. Glycerin has a fatty, oily texture. When I use the xylitol mouthwash, my teeth feel very clean and smooth, like a coating has been removed. When I use toothpaste containing glycerin, in contrast, my teeth don't feel as smooth and clean.

Niner, your statement seems overly strong. A mind is like a hand; if it is too open, everything falls through. If it is too closed, it can't hold what you want it to hold.

Well, I'd like my mind to hold what is true and let the BS fall through. I find that insisting on quality evidence really helps in this goal.

Pure glycerine is a viscous liquid, but it is extremely soluble in water. If you dissolve the same weight of xylitol or glycerol (glycerin) in water, they will probably feel pretty similar. Both will taste sweet. There's probably a lot of other stuff in that toothpaste besides glycerin, so I don't think you can rely on the way your teeth feel after using it as evidence in favor of the "glycerin coats teeth" myth. I'll continue to use the word "myth", overly strong though it may be, until I see some evidence to the contrary.

Things to think about: Does honey coat teeth? Does olive oil coat teeth? If not, why not? Honey (and sugars in general) are chemically similar to glycerin (and xylitol). Olive oil is a fat. It's very different from sugars, and is not soluble in water.

Can ANYONE find the source of the "glycerine coats teeth" myth? It's repeated on lots of low-reliability blogs, but there's never a source.

[Luminosity]

You also have to look at the fact that the glycerine is not used alone. It is part of a formula with SLS, chalk, etc. So that could be different. The xylitol I have is a white crystalline powder which does not resemble glycerine although I see on Wikipedia they are related. I often find things out by trying the products, if it seems safe enough. So I'm looking into this now. Jury's still out, for me.

[Deckah]

I as well, would also like to know the source of this (glycerin thingy). Because I hear it quite a bit, but never see anything other than that, just parroting the info.


There are quite a few blogs out there that have recipes on making ones own toothpaste/powders/mouthwashes. I for one am going to try this.
I'm planning to add comfrey to mine, but the only source I see that doesn't have alcohol in it is from mountainroseherbs, which contains olive oil/comfrey.

[ta5]

Med Hypotheses. 2015 Jan 19. pii: S0306-9877(15)00032-8.

A hypothetical role for vitamin K2 in the endocrine and exocrine aspects of dental caries.

Southward K1.

The growing interest in oral/systemic links demand new paradigms to understand disease processes. New opportunities for dental research, particularly in the fields of neuroscience and endocrinology will emerge. The role of the hypothalamus portion of the brain cannot be underestimated. Under the influence of nutrition, it plays a significant role in the systemic model of dental caries. Currently, the traditional theory of dental caries considers only the oral environment and does not recognize any significant role for the brain. The healthy tooth, however, has a centrifugal fluid flow to nourish and cleanse it. This is moderated by the hypothalamus/parotid axis which signals the endocrine portion of the parotid glands. High sugar intake creates an increase in reactive oxygen species and oxidative stress in the hypothalamus. When this signaling mechanism halts or reverses the dentinal fluid flow, it renders the tooth vulnerable to oral bacteria, which can now attach to the tooth's surface. Acid produced by oral bacteria such as Strep Mutans and lactobacillus can now de-mineralize the enamel and irritate the dentin. The acid attack stimulates an inflammatory response which results in dentin breakdown from the body's own matrix metalloproteinases. Vitamin K2 (K2) has been shown to have an antioxidant potential in the brain and may prove to be a potent way to preserve the endocrine controlled centrifugal dentinal fluid flow. Stress, including oxidative stress, magnifies the body's inflammatory response. Sugar can not only increase oral bacterial acid production but it can concurrently reduce the tooth's defenses through endocrine signaling. Saliva production is the exocrine function of the salivary glands. The buffering capacity of saliva is critical to neutralizing the oral environment. This minimizes the de-mineralization of enamel and enhances its re-mineralization. K2, such as that found in fermented cheese, improves salivary buffering through its influence on calcium and inorganic phosphates secreted. Data collected from several selected primitive cultures on the cusp of civilization demonstrated the difference in dental health due to diet. The primitive diet group had few carious lesions compared to the group which consumed a civilized diet high in sugar and refined carbohydrates. The primitives were able to include the fat soluble vitamins, specifically K2, in their diet. More endocrine and neuroscience research is necessary to better understand how nutrition influences the tooth's defenses through the hypothalamus/parotid axis. It will also link dental caries to other inflammation related degenerative diseases such as diabetes.

PMID: 25636605

[Soma]

I'm missing plenty of both, since I had undiagnosed bruxism for a number of years. I'll probably spend over twenty grand to fix the damage...

How was your bruxism finally discovered? Obviously your dentist somehow musteriously missed it. Did you have TMJ, headaches, jaw pain, etc?

I guess the biggest question: how did you stop the bruxism and how do you know you have stopped (since it mosly occurs at night during sleep)?

[Soma]

There are some benefits of vitamin A (retinol) that beta carotene does not do. Regardless you can use beta carotene but just make sure your total daily retinol intake is below 3000iu.

What exactly is the reasoning behind this particular number of 3000iu of retinol. Are you saying that dosages above this will cause brittle teeth? I have resumed experimenting with short term runs of larger doses of retinol lately for the sake of my skin. It has helped a bit with infection, less so with flaking skin (which I had higher hopes for).