34 replies to this topic

[montana2012]

Hello there,
I feel bad that my first post in the community should be about a terrible problem that plagues me.
In a nutshell - took piracetam for 90 days without choline, doses reaching 6g/day. But caught cold and stopped cold turkey. That lead to massive anxiety and depression problems. I did continue to take it for a while afterwards, didn't do much good though. It gave me cortical myoclonus, which is uncontrollable muscle twitching to this day. It'll probably be with me for the rest of my life.

5 MONTHS LATER STILL:

Here comes the worst part and I'm pretty confident piracetam caused it:

I've been questioning my every thought and action eversince, for 5 months now. I doubt things I know, which I never did in the past. I'm not sure/confident in anything. Is this an anxiety symptom?
Does this state of mind have a name in the literature?
Is NMDA, ACh receptor damage responsible?
Which chemical makes us "sure of things" in the brain? Norepinephrine, dope?
Hypoxia from the sudden stop?
I know I should consult a neurologist. No need to remind me.

P.S. I did try to continue taking it to relieve the symptoms, but it doesn't help with the above and it causes more anxiety, that lasts for WEEKS.

Should I try 'nother racetam?

I've been in a pretty dark place for a while and looking forward for a solution from the community!

Best regards, Steve

Read more: http://www.drugs-for...2#ixzz2dCEHOMfG

[deh707]

Very strange. Maybe it's possible that you've depleted your choline stores excessively without headache symptoms?

You can try a low dose of a choline supplement (bitartrate/citrate/cdp/gpc, etc) and report how you feel.

Edited by deh707, 27 August 2013 - 08:48 PM.

[montana2012]

I took CDP-choline at various dosage with/without choline without success.

[anonymous.0]

Smoke some weed and go to sleep. Seriously.

If it somehow doesn't help, simply eat it. Or it you live in a state where it is legal, buy a CBD extract oil. Eating it won't get you "high", you will absorb a large amount of cbd's.


You seem to have dissociative thoughts. IF this is true, and your mind seems to be in a fog/frenzy, what I wrote above will help signifigantly.

[montana2012]

I did smoke weed to help me cope.
It made me paranoid, hungry and itchy. Weed is heavily overrated, at least for me

[anonymous.0]

Ah. Well, it doesn't help everyone. Was just throwing it out there because of the symptoms you had listed.

You could try using different supplements, starting from the safest and most common, then to the less researched and experimental. Sometimes the solution to a problem is what caused the problem in the first place. Sounds counter-intuitive, I know.

Some people have reported that fish oil relieves depression and anxiety. I've noticed my resting heart rate is lower while taking it. But I also smoke 3-6 black and milds a day, and tobacco is hard on your cardiovascular system.

[montana2012]

I did try to continue taking piracetam,

but the only thing that it did for me from then on is to massively spur my anxiety.

[Synaesthesiac]

To getter a better and broader picture, I would like to ask you what your history is with substance abuse/psychological history as well. I have a feeling there may be a couple of underlying issues that may play a larger role, so please elaborate if you could. I hope you find your solution, I'm sorry to hear you have suffered such ill effects.

[montana2012]

In 2013 I used orally adderall several times at therapeutic doses for studying, never been high off of it. I don;t think I've had problems resulting from this.
Anxiety problems started at 2009 - social anxiety, concentration problems, depression.
However, the hell that piracetam unleashed was unmatched - After my sudden cessation I couldn't recognize parts of my body, had zero hope/confidence (literally zero), tiny light/shadow hallucinations, felt totally detached from people, I couldn't grasp their actions. Had weird thoughts - for example
-"why do people go to the gym?",
-"why do people drive cars?"
-"why do people want new things?" -"To be happy!" -"Why do people want to be happy?"

Now, I did realize with my mind, that all this was nonsense. But there just wasn't "feeling" behind all this. You know, when you automatically feel why people do things and you would do the same, it just makes automatic sense on an emotional level. I had to think hard about simple life facts.

I've been to psychiatrists and schizophrenia was ruled out.
They gave me Zoloft/Xanax. Zoloft only made me worse (I know it has to be taken for a long time to see results - I did take it for a month). Xanax did help me, but I just can't take such heavy gear, I'm scared of it, frankly.

One thing, that did help a bit was Cerebrolysin. Definitely calms you down.

What does all this mess look like to you?

P.S. Piracetam is NOT SAFE, especially when stopped cold turkey. I would compare it's effects to psychological stress. It revs up the brain and makes it a subject to pressure, that mimicks the effects of stress and corticosteroids.

Edited by montana2012, 31 August 2013 - 05:25 AM.

[LetMusicRule]

Very unusual. Haven't seen this reported ever and piracetam has been in the market for quite some time.

[montana2012]

I really don't know what to think of it...
Do you think centrophenoxine might have the ability to help me out a bit?
It's a never ending hell.

[LabRat]

The only 'antidote' to overstimulation and anxiety caused by racetams I've found is 200mg Zen Pills by Allergy Research Group, which is just a combination of 500mg GABA and 200mg Theanine if those aren't easily available (2 at a time is good). I have no idea if this would help but it sounds like anything is worth trying. Weed calms people down a bit but ultimately increases paranoia and weird thoughts so I can imagine it wouldn't help much. Have you tried simple physical activities like jogging or swimming or gym training that might get you back into your body a bit and give you a break from thinking about thinking? Simple meditations like concentrating on breathing might also help re-coordinate mind and body. Also, the Tibetan practice of prostrations has a very good record of pressing the reset button and unwinding all manner of weird states brought on by drugs and other factors, though it needs to be learned from a well qualified teacher.

In the meantime, just speaking from my personal experience and not as an expert, I wouldnt suggest taking any other racetams, which are generally stronger and even more likely to aggravate any underlying anxiety. Even someone without anxiety can start to feel it if they overdo racetams. I wish you the best of luck.

[montana2012]

I'm jogging every single day for some time now for 30 minutes at a time - to be honest with you I'm not too happy with the results. It helps just for a short while.
I'm also considering GABA. Is it safe in the long term?
Will try prostration
I'm considering trying centrophenoxine, since my concentration is awful right now.
Cerebrolysin helped me out a bit.

[platypus]

Sounds like an underlying psychiatric problem - hopefully it resolves.

[BigJohn]

are you still experiencing problems or have they ceased?

[anonymous.0]

I'm not too sure what else to recommend to you other than less intense, relaxing nootropics. Maybe GABA? I don't have anxiety and I don't take any nootropics that offer a calming effect, but I've seen GABA quoted many times by people who do. Contrary to my first post, If I were you I would stay away from any more racetams for now. It seems it could be more of a psychological problem that was intensified by nootropics. I've never heard anything like it, I'm interested in seeing what works for you. Good luck.

[tarasco]

Hi Montana....

Sounds like you and I might share a problem with Cerebral/Brain Allergies...

http://www.alternati...inallergies.htm

Take a look, read the whole thing through and think about it...

By the way...what was going on in 2009 when this all started....new home, new diet, sudden stress, exposure to hydrocarbons or other chemicals...?

Tarasco

Edited by tarasco, 06 September 2013 - 06:43 AM.

[montana2012]

Hi and sorry for being absent for a while.

People on the other forum advised GABA as well and I did get some, which I regret now. GABA supplements do NOT cross the Blood-brain barrier and are pretty much worthless. Phenibut is a better alternative.

I can't remember anything specific, that caused my anxiety in 09, never abused drugs, never worked/been in a toxic environment, arguing with my mom was stressful, that could be one of the causes, but I can;t recall having too serious problems at home. I think puberty unlocked it.

Anyhow, I'm a bit better now /thanks to Cerebrolysin/, but I still have symptoms left, only are they milder.

I eat a pretty good diet ATM. I used to be allergic during puberty to some foods, looks like it's resolved now.
You got me thinking about the possibility of me having "stealth" allergy to some foods.
I also ordered some Centrophenoxine to help with my deteriorating attention span - see how that turns out.

Bottom line is PIRACETAM IS NOT SAFE. They make it look like it's as safe as vit. C. I swore off this crap. There's tolerance to it and it's going to activate your amygdala in a way, that has the potential to plunge you in hell for MONTHS, in my case, more than 4 months.
Even more - do NOT mess with neurotransmitters, try alternative nootropics. No matter how bad you think your life is and no matter how much smarter you want to get there's a chance you gonna lose everything from a seemingly harmless substance. These things will fuck you up in the long term.

Try cerebro, centrophenoxine, vitamins, iron, dual n-back, citicoline, nicotine, phenibut etc. - you are going to see some amazing results.

Edited by montana2012, 08 September 2013 - 12:39 PM.

[Synaesthesiac]

" I think puberty unlocked it."

This is a hallmark and good indicator of an underlying psychiatric condition.

"Bottom line is PIRACETAM IS NOT SAFE."

Maybe not for you, but this goes against over three decades of research. Logic dictates that the problem is most likely your specific neurochemistry, not Piracetam. It would be a shame for people to read this and be too scared to try it because of a single self-reported issue loosely attributed to Piracetam. You keep condemning nootropics, yet to continually try using new ones to solve your issue- this is not good, and will exacerbate your issues once you cease those as well. There is strong evidence at this point of an underlying psychiatric condition, and I am not the first one in this thread to posit this theory. Just because one psychiatrist cleared you of Schizophrenia does NOT mean you are free from any of the hundreds of other psychiatric conditions with a multitude of varying degrees of the same symptoms you seem to be suffering from. Your best bet at this point is to go to a specialized institution or psychiatrist who can give you the full gamut of testing and several batteries thereof to determine what exactly it is that you are suffering from. To attribute your symptoms to Piracetam when it seems there are certain psychiatric underpinnings is unwise. MANY different things can cause the onset of a dormant condition, even MARIJUANA, which has been used for thousands of years and is basically universally declared very innocuous. Pretty much anything that plays around with your neurochemistry can be the catalyst that sets off these conditions. Remember, correlation is NOT causation. Piracetam may have set off this condition in you, but I am almost certain it did not CAUSE it. If it DID, against ALL ODDS, you are the first and probably last case, and are a statistical outlier and oddity. This does NOT mean you are screwed; In fact, once you are properly diagnosed and can treat the condition effectively, your quality of life will improve immeasurably and you will appreciate it even more than the average "normal" person having tasted the duress and hardship of the other side. I too had a major depressive episode and condition brought upon me by puberty, but through the right psychiatric care, the right medication, and simply growing up and self-discipline and self-control I have become free of it and the need to take medication or worry about it have long since passed (I no longer suffer from it at all). You may however have a different condition that is not so easily ameliorated, and may require long-term medication. So what? You will enjoy life. Nobody can take that away from you. Hope this helps.

[renfr]

You're not the first one, months ago someone made a thread with the same twitching issue.

Check this out : http://www.longecity...-piracetam-use/

There are many other threads when you search piracetam and twitches.

It can be excess calcium release, does magnesium and potassium supplementation bring you any relief?

In the worst case it's damage caused by glutamate excitotoxicity.

[montana2012]

You're not the first one, months ago someone made a thread with the same twitching issue.

Yeah, I know the dude, talked with him, as well as with desperado12 (from the same thread?).
See, this is why I urge you to be cautious with racetams.

I still have it 5 months after my quit and probably will till the rest of my life. It's cortical myoclonus and I don't mind it. I'm worried however, that it correlates with some of my other symptoms.

It's not caused by excitotoxicity, but rather by a change in the way the brain utilizes acetylcholine. Remember, ACh is responsible for muscle contraction.

I think I'll get myself some Magnesium soon.

Edited by montana2012, 10 September 2013 - 05:09 PM.

[renfr]

You're not the first one, months ago someone made a thread with the same twitching issue.

Yeah, I know the dude, talked with him, as well as with desperado12 (from the same thread?).
See, this is why I urge you to be cautious with racetams.

I still have it 5 months after my quit and probably will till the rest of my life. It's cortical myoclonus and I don't mind it. I'm worried however, that it correlates with some of my other symptoms.

It's not caused by excitotoxicity, but rather by a change in the way the brain utilizes acetylcholine. Remember, ACh is responsible for muscle contraction.

I think I'll get myself some Magnesium soon.

How do you know that it is cortical myoclonus? Or rather, how do you know it is due to a change in Ach utilization?

[BlueCloud]

"In a nutshell - took piracetam for 90 days without choline, doses reaching 6g/day."

6g is a LOT. I don't know where this idea of taking such huge amounts of Piracetam came from ( maybe it was the legendary ramblings of "Isochroma" all over the Internet), and I believe these insane mega-dosing is the reason behind 90% of all the strange reactions some people get from Piracetam.
Taken at reasonnable doses, Piracetam is one of the safest substances around , as long as you don't expect superhero powers out of a Sci-Fi movie , or some sort of magical panacea cure to all things mental.
And the word "safe" doesn't mean you can eat mountains of powder , it means safe within reasonable limits. Even the most benign substance on earth called Water can kill you if you exceed a certain dose.

[Godof Smallthings]

2 x 4.8 g is actually supported by research. It is not Isochroma's idea. The main thread that advocated 4.8 g doses was by ScienceGuy, and he had a fair number of studies to back up his claim.

I know it's just another anecdote, but I was on 4.8g x 2 for almost 2 months, and did not experience negative effects.

[Synaesthesiac]

I've heard of attack doses being utilized with those doses, but these are "attack" doses, and the dosage in MY experience continues to be beneficial and not cause burnout when dropped back down to around 800mg. Most of those studies were also performed on rats, so subjectively speaking, the "burnout" factor is not so apparent. However here, on Longecity, I've seen a common thread of "burnout" amongst those who have taken larger doses over a long period of time. Less has been more for me with Piracetam.

Edited by Synaesthesiac, 11 September 2013 - 11:52 PM.

[BlueCloud]

2 x 4.8 g is actually supported by research. It is not Isochroma's idea. The main thread that advocated 4.8 g doses was by ScienceGuy, and he had a fair number of studies to back up his claim.

I know it's just another anecdote, but I was on 4.8g x 2 for almost 2 months, and did not experience negative effects.

While that dosage might work for some, I think that people who never took piracetam before shouldn't start right away with such a high dose ( In fact , the recommended dosage you'll find in the insert of the UCB pharmaceuticallly branded Piracetam is a total 2400mg per day ). Before long, people start eating kilograms of Racetams and snorting Noopept because they "read it" on Longecity, then complain that they feel sick..
Starting low and working your way slowly to a higher dosage (IF it's really needed. Many people will do well on lower doses) should me a more sensible approach for beginners.

I personally had issues every time I went over 3g, see this thread http://www.longecity...sinus-problems/
Staying under 2g ( and taking 15mg of Zinc) alleviated all these issues, and 400 to 1600mg total daily worked every bit as good as the much higher doses I was taking when I started. And I never needed Choline with it.

[Godof Smallthings]

Starting low and working your way slowly to a higher dosage (IF it's really needed. Many people will do well on lower doses) should me a more sensible approach for beginners.

Agreed.

[garyes]

"In a nutshell - took piracetam for 90 days without choline, doses reaching 6g/day."

6g is a LOT. I don't know where this idea of taking such huge amounts of Piracetam came from ( maybe it was the legendary ramblings of "Isochroma" all over the Internet), and I believe these insane mega-dosing is the reason behind 90% of all the strange reactions some people get from Piracetam.
Taken at reasonnable doses, Piracetam is one of the safest substances around , as long as you don't expect superhero powers out of a Sci-Fi movie , or some sort of magical panacea cure to all things mental.
And the word "safe" doesn't mean you can eat mountains of powder , it means safe within reasonable limits. Even the most benign substance on earth called Water can kill you if you exceed a certain dose.

Agree that is too much IMO

[montana2012]

9 MONTHS LATER STILL:

9 months out, I still have some of the symptoms /I MANAGED TO DEFEAT ANXIETY WITH LITHIUM/. I took some piracetam recently (just 800 mg) to see how this one goes and it gave me instantaneous anxiety/brain fog. What's worse is that the "weird thoughts" effect seems to linger for weeks or even months afterwords.

I noticed that high dose alcohol seems to alleviate the symptoms. So the 3 substances that seem to alleviate the condition temporarily are:

Centrophenoxine - The first 500mg I took had a huge effect on me, lifted all anxiety and brain fog and all long term piracetam-induced issues.
Cerebrolysin - when I do 5 ml for 5 days the condition seems to disappear, then comes back. Modulates glutamatergic system.
Alcohol - small doses make me feel horrible, getting hammered clears up all the problems. The effect is NOT solely due to its intoxicating effects.

Ethanol inhibits the ability of glutamate to open the cation channel associated with the N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) subtype of glutamate receptors

All this leads me to believe, that my problem is NMDA related, since all of the above substances act on the NMDAr one way or another /mostly antagonism/. I think that my piracetam multiplied NMDAr permanently, and now my neurons don't get excited in a proper way.

Subchronic treatment of aged mice with piracetam (500 mg/kg p.o. for 14 days) elevates N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor density by about 20% and normalizes the enhanced affinity of L-glutamate for the NMDA receptor. Since deficits at the level of the NMDA receptor might be one of the mechanisms underlying age-associated cognitive impairment, the effects reported for piracetam may be relevant for the cognition-enhancing properties of this drug.

How do I solve NMDA problems in a non-toxic way. Ketamine, Memantine, DXM?

Could it be my problems are AMPA receptor derived?

Best,
Steve

Edited by montana2012, 13 February 2014 - 04:06 PM.

[lone rider]

day 2 on piracetam and more forgetfull... :(

DAY 2 .. damnn forgetfull !!!!

yesterday i took about 4gm of piracetam in totall divided over 3 doses 200 mg modafinil and the day went super productive and yess i was really getting my books in my brain... before sleeping i took 800 mg as well..

today i got up did a nice brk fast with chicken for my choline and then took 1.6 gm piracetam + 200 mg modafinil +1 multi vit. +1 B complex with almost 2 glasses of semi skimmed milk.
and i am much more forgetfull today fogetting where i kept my calculator 10 mins back, forgetting what i have studied in past two days. . i am though feeling enhanced colour thing as the computer screen do look bright to me but not being able to concentrate.
i must say past two days were nice infact i was smashing being able to do revisions jst at the back of my mindn everything was straight comming to me but today damn i cant get it on paper even if i am getting something written on it i lack confidence if its correct or not gotta chk it again n again... what the heck went wrong!!!!!

i did altered my sleep cycle though . was awake yesterday almost abt 2 hrs on modaalert but slept agood sleep inday for abt 6 hrs.

kindly help...:(