53 replies to this topic

[Dorian Grey]

I've been an "Iron Watcher" for years now, donating blood and taking IP6 to keep stored/excess iron levels minimal (ferritin below 50). The over-mineralization theory of aging and disease incorporates well into most theories on aging like Calorie Restriction (= mineral restriction), oxidative stress (iron/fenton reaction generates hydroxyl radicals) etc.

While I've been preoccupied with iron for some time, I just noticed copper as "the other evil mineral" in a paper from George J Brewer hear: http://danmurphydc.c...ewer-CU-ALZ.pdf

"Risks of Copper and Iron Toxicity during Aging in Humans" (see attached pdf at bottom of post)

What I noticed in this paper aside from some rather astonishing facts about copper and dementia, was that most people with elevated copper got their high levels from taking supplements containing copper. It's always bugged me that supplement makers throw things very few people are deficient in into their formulas simply so they can call them "complete" in their promotions.

After reading this paper, I'm concerned a lot of folks dropping expensive, high quality "complete" multi's may be poisoning themselves with daily copper supplementation. Mr Brewer doesn't list his sources, but his argument is compelling, and may warrant further research for anyone taking a daily multi containing copper. Can anyone confirm or disprove his statements like:

"In the general population, those in the highest fifth of copper intake, lose cognition at over three times the normal rate."

"Free copper levels are elevated in the blood of AD patients compared to agematched controls; the higher the free copper, the lower the cognitive ability."

"Rabbits fed diets to develop Alzheimer’s disease would only do so if they also drank tap water; they did not develop Alzheimer’s disease on the same diet if they drank only distilled water. The researchers determined that it was trace amounts of copper in the tap water that made the difference"

"Organic food copper is bound to proteins and is processed by the liver, which does not allow excess release into the free copper pool in the blood. Inorganic copper consumed in drinking water or mineral supplements bypasses the liver and contributes immediately to the free copper pool in the blood"

Give it a look and let us know what you think. Is copper really this toxic? Is it OK to supplement it every day/forever in our multi even if it's a brand we know and trust? Feedback Please!

P.S. NAC and IP6 appear to be the best copper chelators!

Attached Files

•  Interesting Facts about Iron and Copper.pdf   53.85KB   27 downloads

Edited by synesthesia, 01 September 2013 - 06:23 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

OK; this looks like a legitimate source for the study with the rabbits and their drinking water.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16886094
"Trace copper levels in the drinking water, but not zinc of aluminum influence CNS Alzeimer-like pathology"
Abstract


Mounting evidence suggests copper may influence the progression of Alzheimer's disease by reducing clearance of the amyloid beta protein (Abeta) from the brain. Previous experiments show that addition of only 0.12 PPM copper (one-tenth the Environmental Protection Agency Human consumption limits) to distilled water was sufficient to precipitate the accumulation of Abeta in the brains of cholesterol-fed rabbits (1). Here we report that addition of copper to the drinking water of spontaneously hypercholesterolemic Watanabe rabbits, cholesterol-fed beagles and rabbits, PS1/APP transgenic mice produced significantly enhanced brain levels of Abeta. In contrast to the effects of copper, we found that aluminum- or zinc-ion-supplemented distilled water did not have a significant effect on brain Ab accumulation in cholesterol-fed rabbits. We also report that administration of distilled water produced a reduction in the expected accumulation of Ab in three separate animal models. Collectively, these data suggest that water quality may have a significant influence on disease progression and Ab neuropathology in AD.

-----------------------------------------

This is amazing! Any other hits searching on his statements?

[Dorian Grey]

Here's the study on serum copper and Alzheimer's: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3453128/

"Serum copper in Alzheimer's disease and vascular dementia"

Abstract:
Alzheimer’s disease is the most common form of dementia in the elderly and it’s prevalence is rapidly rising. Oxidative stress plays important role in the pathophysiology of Alzheimer’s disease. Metals like copper, iron derived through diet can act as pro-oxidant under oxidative stress. In the present study, serum copper levels were evaluated in 50 patients with Alzheimer’s disease, 24 patients with Vascular Dementia and 30 controls. All the groups were also investigated for serum ceruloplsmin levels. The mean copper levels in Alzheimer’s disease and Vascular Dementia were significantly raised compared to controls. An attempt has been made to study the relationship of serum copper with ceruloplasmin. Our study found weak correlation between copper and ceruloplasmin levels in Alzheimer’s disease and Vascular Dementia.

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This is disturbing! How much copper is in your daily multi?

[blood]

Fortunately some manufacturers like Thorne do make copper & iron free versions of their multis, e.g., Thorne Basic Nutrients without Iron & Copper.

I do wonder about the presence of manganese in multi vitamins, also. It's not an entirely innocuous substance, either.

Edited by blood, 01 September 2013 - 09:00 AM.

[Ark]

Just wondering if extreme exercise is as good as donating blood for males?

[pamojja]

Give it a look and let us know what you think. Is copper really this toxic? Is it OK to supplement it every day/forever in our multi even if it's a brand we know and trust?

With iron it's easier to check, with copper it can be really difficult to ascertain since high copper levels could mean too many other things:

Serum copper:
Levels 80-125 μg/dl (12.6-20 μmol/l) are nomal, < 12 μmol/l indicate deficiency
Can be used to detect copper deficiency, but serum copper levels are elevated by a variety of conditions and can vary independent of body copper. Acute or chronic infections, leukemia, lymphomas, Hodgkin- disease, carcinoma, liver damage, stress, various forms of anemia as well as oral intake of contraceptives often raises serum copper levels.

Plasma ceruloplasmin:
Levels 0.1–0.5 g/l are normal
> 90% of blood copper is bound to ceruloplasmin. Although ceruloplasmin levels can be used to detect copper deficiency, ceruloplasmin is an acute-phase protein. Therefore is elevated by a variety of conditions and can vary independent of body copper

Edited by pamojja, 01 September 2013 - 09:02 AM.

[lammas2]

I do wonder about the presence of manganese in multi vitamins, also. It's not an entirely innocuous substance, either.

Seems relevant:
http://ajcn.nutritio.../1/152.abstract

[hippocampus]

I take half tablet of OptiZinc (http://www.iherb.com...40-Tablets/1361) which contains 30 mg of zinc and 300 mcg of copper. I get enough copper from food anyway, but is this formula still ok? Copper amount is stil very small and does high zinc counteract copper or not?

[timar]

Zinc does compete with copper absorption but OptiZinc is a chelated form, bound to methionine, so this form probably doesn't.

[Dorian Grey]

Just wondering if extreme exercise is as good as donating blood for males?

Interesting... On another forum where I rant about iron, an "Ultra" marathoner (male/40's) said he tried to donate blood but was turned away by the blood bank for low hemoglobin. I did a bit of research and it seems running in particular causes a "footstrike" AKA "heel strike" hemolysis, or rupturing of red blood cells. The liver then cleans the blood and sends the wast product (bilirubin?) down the drain through bile dumped into the GI tract.

Don't know if heavy lifting or other non-running exercise causes the same phenomenon, but a "ferritin" blood lab is cheap and easy (you don't even need to be fasting), and will give a good indication of stored iron status. The upper limit for ferritin is set SKY-HIGH (150-200/female & 300+/male) by the labs; not because elevated ferritin (into triple digits) is healthy, but because it is so common in middle age and older males and post-menopausal and non-menstruating females.

Many enlightened doctors and scholars of health are now opining anything into triple digits should be considered as unhealthy iron homeostasis and numbers closer to 50 (30-70) is the actual "sweet-spot" for stored iron / ferritin.

Edited by synesthesia, 01 September 2013 - 04:10 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

I take half tablet of OptiZinc (http://www.iherb.com...40-Tablets/1361) which contains 30 mg of zinc and 300 mcg of copper. I get enough copper from food anyway, but is this formula still ok? Copper amount is stil very small and does high zinc counteract copper or not?

Zinc actually does hammer copper levels back, and those with Wilson's Disease (genetic copper overload disorder) are treated with daily zinc to help keep copper in check. Don't know if the form of supplemented copper or zinc (thanks timar!) would affect this. Something I would want to look into further if I was taking anything with supplemental copper.

There are plenty of forms of supplemental zinc that do not contain copper and I've heard over-supplementation of zinc over long periods of time can push copper too low. I had to hunt around a bit, but I found some low dose zinc (Nature's Plus / Amino Acid Chelate 10mg/tablet) that I have switched to.

As I chelate copper (as well as iron) with IP6, I don't want to push copper too low, but from the paper I linked to, (which the mineral experts at Acu-Cell seem to agree with), copper deficiencies are extremely rare and elevated copper is seen much more often.

I do make a point to eat high copper foods like shellfish, chocolate, coffee, lamb, duck, mushrooms and beer (brewed in copper kettles!) when I cycle off IP6 to correct any possibility of getting copper too low.

Here's the Acu-Cell page on copper: http://www.acu-cell.com/crcu.html
"Copper on the other hand is elevated in the majority of patients"

Edited by synesthesia, 01 September 2013 - 04:36 PM.

[renfr]

What about high dose zinc to counter copper overload?

For iron, yeah IP6 is pretty good, you can also just eat whole grains and some nuts such as brazil nuts have a significant phytic acid content (80-240mg per one single nut).

[hippocampus]

Yes, but wouldn't IP6 also chelate zinc (which counteracts copper)?

[Dorian Grey]

Yes, but wouldn't IP6 also chelate zinc (which counteracts copper)?

Yes, that's why I supplement low dose zinc...

I take IP6 primarily to keep free/serum iron as close to zilch as possible as the labile iron pool is what gives birth to hydroxyl radicals. Hydroxyl's are the worst kind of free radical and keeping them down is half the battle of oxidative stress reduction.

I go easy on the IP6 too... One 500mg per day on a very empty stomach with a full glass of water, either first thing in the morning, or last thing before bed. I drop the low dose zinc about 12 hours apart from the IP6 to avoid conflict.

Low doses of everything... Especially minerals!

Edited by synesthesia, 01 September 2013 - 09:44 PM.

[renfr]

Yes, but wouldn't IP6 also chelate zinc (which counteracts copper)?

Chelate or impairs absorption? Both are totally different, never heard of IP6 chelating zinc but yes it does impair zinc, magnesium, calcium, iron, copper absorption.
IP6 chelates mercury, lead, cadmium, iron, copper and calcium. (http://pubs.acs.org/....1021/jf9811267)
If you don't take them at the same time that's fine however NEVER take zinc on empty stomach, I learned that the hard way.

[niner]

Copper, and probably other transition metals, are relatively safe if they are bound either by a strong chelating agent or by a metal-binding protein like ceruloplasmin. In chemical jargon, metals bound in such a fashion are described as being "well-liganded". "Poorly-liganded" metals, on the other hand, are free to participate in Fenton reactions and other such badness. It might be possible to deliver copper in a safe form, but many sources of it are poorly liganded, like the copper that leaches from copper plumbing, or the copper in some (most?) multis. There is a company (somewhere) that has developed an assay that distinguishes between bound (well-liganded) and free copper in biological samples.

Here is a very relevant thread from four years ago.

[Dorian Grey]

Thanks for the link niner, & good point about transition metals being safe so long as they are well-liganded.

I think the over-mineralizaton theory proposes that even protein bound (liganded) metals can leak/leach (be expressed from their protiens) under certain conditions, and the larger the amount of stored/unused minerals one has onboard, the more problematic an occurrence like this could be. I know ferritin in liver tissue can degrade into hemosiderin, which is known to be a bit leaky and cause problems in livers where iron staining shows on biopsy. I don't know if copper has the same problem.

My thoughts are, as long as there is no benefit to carrying a 5 year reserve supply of stored iron/copper around like some kind of toxic waste; and it is relatively easy to avoid or reduce over time, it seems a logical thing to do. Young people carry little/no stored metals/minerals and are healthier than oldsters carrying metallic baggage. Association does not equal causation, but it seems there is "some" risk from stored metals, and little risk in halting accumulation, and/or striving for more youthful mineral homeostasis.

Edited by synesthesia, 02 September 2013 - 12:28 AM.

[niner]

My thoughts are, as long as there is no benefit to carrying a 5 year reserve supply of stored iron/copper around like some kind of toxic waste; and it is relatively easy to avoid or reduce over time, it seems a logical thing to do.

I agree. There is so much paranoia about mineral deficiency, but I suspect mineral overload is a more common problem. For what it's worth, I haven't taken a multi in years. I have a pretty decent diet though.

[nowayout]

Good post, thanks. Any suggestions for multis that don't contain copper though? They pretty much all do.

By the way, this probably means we should avoid supplemental zinc too, correct?

[timar]

Good post, thanks. Any suggestions for multis that don't contain copper though? They pretty much all do.

LEF Two-Per-Day for example. If you take one a day, you have a decent multi which is moderately dosed (except for B-vitamins, which actually should be megadosed, as I have explained in another topic).

[FrankEd]

As I undergone a heart surgery, everyday I´m taking 2 tablespoons of beet root juice for its nitric oxid content. Now I´m concerned because it has a high iron level.

Should I discontinuate it?

[niner]

As I undergone a heart surgery, everyday I´m taking 2 tablespoons of beet root juice for its nitric oxid content. Now I´m concerned because it has a high iron level.

Should I discontinuate it?

How many mg/day of iron are you getting? If the beetroot juice is doing something good, is there somewhere else you can cut back on iron, like red meat? What it you took it with IP6? You could always donate blood. What's your ferritin level?

The first thing you need to do is figure out how much iron is in 2 tbs of beetroot juice.

[hippocampus]

Good post, thanks. Any suggestions for multis that don't contain copper though? They pretty much all do.

By the way, this probably means we should avoid supplemental zinc too, correct?

A lot of people (maybe even most people) are deficient in zinc (subclinically) AFAIK or ingest too much copper (from food etc., not supplements) so their zinc:copper balance isn't right. Therefore, I don't think most people should avoid supplemental zinc.

[mwestbro]

An anecdote: a few years ago I was taking 1.5 grams of ascorbic acid and 15 mgs. zinc with no copper. My HDL dropped precipitously. I ran across some suggestions that vitamin C impaired copper intake, and that subclinical copper deficiency could cause lipid problems. I dropped my C to one gram and added 2 mgs. of copper. My HDL went back up. I had my ceruloplasmin measured before adjusting my supplements and was told that it was marginally low, consistent with copper deficiency. This is an n of 1 anecdote, and I have no idea if I interpreted events correctly.

[nowayout]

Good post, thanks. Any suggestions for multis that don't contain copper though? They pretty much all do.

By the way, this probably means we should avoid supplemental zinc too, correct?

A lot of people (maybe even most people) are deficient in zinc (subclinically) AFAIK or ingest too much copper (from food etc., not supplements) so their zinc:copper balance isn't right. Therefore, I don't think most people should avoid supplemental zinc.

Well, it is hard to tell without testing, so I would not take a lot of zinc either. Zinc toxicity is a bitch and the amounts of zinc in, say, the ZMA supplements a lot of kids take today because they are sold as muscle supplements are close to the limit for toxicity, if not above it in some cases, depending on the patient.

I suspect zinc toxicity is also underdiagnosed since the symptoms are very nonspecific and seldom linked to zinc intake. Almost every other person complaining on the internet of brain fog, depression, aches and pains, or other nonspecific long-lasting mental and physical symptoms could theoretically fit the differential diagnosis for zinc toxicity.

Edited by nowayout, 02 September 2013 - 10:20 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

As I undergone a heart surgery, everyday I´m taking 2 tablespoons of beet root juice for its nitric oxid content. Now I´m concerned because it has a high iron level.

Should I discontinuate it?

Add a "ferritin" (stored iron) test to your next blood labs and you'll know where you stand with your iron loading.

The upper limit for the "normal" range for ferritin is set outrageously high for men at around 300 for most labs, but many who look closely at the dangers of elevated ferritin are beginning to think anything into triple digits (above 100) may be less than healthy iron homeostasis.

If ferritin is at all elevated, and you can't donate blood, a referral to a hematologist will have you fixed up in no time. Your GP may look at ferritin of 200-300 and say "oh well"; but a hematologist will look at this and say "why not" (fix this).

[Dorian Grey]

Here's a great site that has compiled a small ocean of studies related to iron (and copper) issues... Very compelling reading.

http://www.healtheiron.com/

Their science library is a good place to start:

http://www.healtheir...science-library

Here's a quote about healthy levels of ferritin from their "about iron tests" page: http://www.healtheiron.com/iron-tests

"Serum ferritin measurements range from about 15–200 ng/ml for women and 20–300 ng/ml for men. Although laboratory ranges vary, most align closely with these values. Approximately 95% of the population will fall within the “normal” population range simply because ranges are calculated using standard statistical methodology. Except for the lower ends of these ranges, which can predict anemia or iron deficiency anemia, the ranges per se do not define optimal or even healthy iron levels. Optimal SF ranges for men and women are 25–75 ng/ml. Individuals with risk factors for diabetes, cardiovascular diseases, stoke, liver diseases and cancer face amplified risks proportional to the amount of stored body iron over and above the optimal range.
Numerous medical research studies have demonstrated that serum ferritin above 100 ng/ml has been associated with decreased cardio vascular fitness, increased incidences of atherosclerosis, type 2 diabetes, cancer and accelerated aging, which is evidenced in conditions like osteoporosis and sarcopenia (muscle wasting). Excess iron can catalyze oxidative stress and results in the formation of Reactive Oxygen Species (ROS). This leads to cell and DNA damage see IRON Science Library. Fortunately this does not pertain to everyone; ferritin levels and stored iron can remain safely contained, even when ferritin exceeds 150 ng/ml, if the body’s natural antioxidant defenses are working properly see GGT Science Library."

[hamishm00]

....when I cycle off IP6 to correct any possibility of getting copper too low.

Do you mind if I ask what your IP6 regimen / dosing schedule ordinarily looks like?

[Darryl]

Another paper by the same author:

Brewer, George J. "The risks of copper toxicity contributing to cognitive decline in the aging population and to Alzheimer's disease." Journal of the American College of Nutrition 28.3 (2009): 238-242.

We established that AD was a new disease, just beginning to make an appearance 100 years ago. And we established that it only exists in developed countries. Now think about copper plumbing which has had an explosive growth over the past century in developed countries, particularly over the last 50-60 years. 80% of U.S. homes have copper plumbing, which was unheard of 100 years ago, and can’t be afforded in developing countries. Then there is the epidemiologic evidence involving the Japanese, which comes close to a smoking gun for the copper hypothesis. Japan, a developed country, does not use copper plumbing because of fear of copper poisoning. And they have almost no AD! Yet when Japanese migrate to Hawaii, where copper plumbing is used, they get AD like everyone else.

I'm considering a reverse osmosis water purification system for a drinking water tap, when I next own a home.

[Dorian Grey]

....when I cycle off IP6 to correct any possibility of getting copper too low.

Do you mind if I ask what your IP6 regimen / dosing schedule ordinarily looks like?

I'm a big believer in low doses in everything I take. When I learned my ferritin was elevated, I started donating blood and taking IP6 (500mg) twice a day, first thing in the morning and last thing before bed (IP6 is an empty stomach supplement). I would take a low dose zinc (10mg), and 100mg of mag citrate with lunch to insure I didn't get low on these important min's.

Once I reached my initial target for ferritin (20), I slacked off on everything and now take a maintenance dose of only one IP6/day 3 to 5 days a week, and allowed ferritin to rise to the sweet spot of 50. I avoid IP6 on days when I eat high copper foods to give any copper deficiency a chance to correct. Never been tested for copper levels. I know it's important, but I believe less is more when it comes to copper.

My health improved immensely over the following 6 months and I no longer suffer from fasting hypoglycemia or post meal glucose spikes (confirmed by glucometer). My fatty liver also resolved (confirmed by ultrasound) without major lifestyle changes. At age 57, I've suddenly found I'm young again!

Edited by synesthesia, 03 September 2013 - 04:23 PM.