54 replies to this topic

[lostfalco]

The name says it all. =)

[Nattzor]

http://www.longecity...660#entry609549 - MB + LLLT might be bad, low dose MB seems ok.

http://www.longecity...630#entry609225 - MB + CoQ10 should act synergistically.

http://www.reddit.co...mmon_mechanism/ - Energy (ATP from the mitochondria, the foundation of this) and IQ.

http://www.reddit.co...tp_can_improve/ - Metabolic agents (that enhance ATP) thread.

http://heelspurs.com/led.html - Understandable review of a lot of LLLT research (and his own thoughts).

[lostfalco]

http://www.longecity...660#entry609549 - MB + LLLT might be bad, low dose MB seems ok.

http://www.longecity...630#entry609225 - MB + CoQ10 should act synergistically.

http://www.reddit.co...mmon_mechanism/ - Energy (ATP from the mitochondria, the foundation of this) and IQ.

http://www.reddit.co...tp_can_improve/ - Metabolic agents (that enhance ATP) thread.

http://heelspurs.com/led.html - Understandable review of a lot of LLLT research (and his own thoughts).

That is a beautiful first post Nattzor. Thanks man!

[BigPapaChakra]

(Moved from original thread)

Okay, I didn't know if I should post this at any of the other threads because it doesn't necessarily have to do with mitochondria, so if anyone wants, notify me and I'll move the post to one of the other threads.

http://www.pnas.org/...9.full.pdf html
Prolonged myelination in human neocortical evolution

I've been reading and re-reading this blog: http://www.jackkruse...rain-is-unique/ and I've decided to go annotate all the citations which may take a lot of time. The above citation is citation #3 in the blog.

Very interesting, I suggest everyone reads that blog then reads that cite specifically. It compares myelination of human vs. other primate brains, and we start of with little to no myelin when born, and lots of subcutaneous fat and very little physiological functionality, whereas a chimp has much more myelination at birth, lower body fat, and more functionality. Here is a question I just asked Dr. Kruse on the Circadian Biohackers group:
"(1) do we simply have more myelin in our brains as we age, or do we specifically *accumulate* myelin at a *faster* rate as we age (say, we gain 2% total brain myelin during ages 11-13, but at 21-23 we gain 7% brain myelin per year)? (2) Are there specific actions, foods, supplements, techniques, etc. that increase the rate of myelinogenesis or how much we can accumulate? I understand I should be eating a ketogenic diet, but I'm speaking specifics. For instance, are there foods, maybe raw pastured egg yolks, that if I ate an abundance of, I may grow more myelin and grow it faster? Maybe sources/supplements of phosphatidylcholine/serine? tDCS specifically at the prefrontal cortex, or my current LLLT experiment at the prefrontal cortex or Reticular Activating System? It seems as though a large portion of myelinogenesis comes from life experiences and socialization, and also movement. Should I maybe seek out places to do gymnastics and yoga, lol? Learning new skills, maybe even heart rate variability training daily? Ahhhh so much to learn."

Does anyone know? Could simply doing TULIP enhance myelination of the brain? It appears, according to the above citation, that synaptic pruning in the prefrontal cortex continues on up until about age 30, and myelinogenesis of that specific area continues up to about 27yrs old and sometimes older. I'm not understanding if we simply have more myelin in that area due to a longer life and more experience, or if we actually accumulate myelin quicker when we are in our twenties, plateauing at about 30. If LLLT and/or TULIP enhance myelinogenesis, what would be the effects of particularly targeting the prefrontal cortex and/or RAS with red LEDs/Lasers, rather than stimulating the entire brain?

What about specific nutrients or supplements that enhance myelinogenesis? I was thinking about TONS of raw, pastured egg yolks. I just don't know if that would really have an effect, but as Falco said way back, his favorite brain food was (is?) raw eggs. Dave Asprey also promotes his 'Get Some Ice Cream' all the time, and one of the ingredients is raw eggs. Hmm, maybe eat that weekly and see what happens? Take phosphatidylcholine? I wonder. Any ideas would be great!

[lostfalco]

Whether you agree or disagree with his theories...I think most of us can agree that Aubrey is a badass. One of my favorite people on this planet. If you want to learn a ton about mitochondria then check this out. http://pliki.superno...RY_OF_AGING.pdf

[lostfalco]

If true, then the implications of this article are truly staggering. http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3757511/

Here's the press release as previously mentioned. http://www.ninds.nih...ia_07252013.htm

This seems to indicate that transcranial LLLT should not be thought of as 'stimulating' but instead should be thought of as 'regulatory'. The implications for a whole host of brain 'imbalances' becomes immediately apparent. This list is LONG.

[Nattzor]

www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/1lvm37/sleep_and_brain_energy_levels_atp_changes_during/ - Might reduce sleep needs, atleast helping with reducing sleep deprivation cognitive deficits.

Should I post this in the other thread too?

[lostfalco]

www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/1lvm37/sleep_and_brain_energy_levels_atp_changes_during/ - Might reduce sleep needs, atleast helping with reducing sleep deprivation cognitive deficits.

Should I post this in the other thread too?

As always, you can totally do what you want...but I think it's great right here. =)

Based on a quick skim, that is some VERY interesting info. Thanks man. I'm definitely gonna give those studies a closer look.

Are you the reddit op as well Nattzor?

[Nattzor]

www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/1lvm37/sleep_and_brain_energy_levels_atp_changes_during/ - Might reduce sleep needs, atleast helping with reducing sleep deprivation cognitive deficits.

Should I post this in the other thread too?

As always, you can totally do what you want...but I think it's great right here. =)

Based on a quick skim, that is some VERY interesting info. Thanks man. I'm definitely gonna give those studies a closer look.

Are you the reddit op as well Nattzor?

Nope, just a reader/pooster. But I'd recommend everyone to visit the #reddit-nootropics irc channel.

[lostfalco]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3714274/

Very fascinating article on different metabolic substrates used by different brain regions and how this differentially affects the brain during mitochondrial dysfunction.

My thoughts: this has very interesting implications for brain diseases...however, it seems to me like a decent starting point for devising an optimal brain nutrition plan. What do you guys think? (kinda looks like some form of 'balance' wins the day again...ya know, based on this one limited study. ha)

QUOTES:

First, we demonstrate here that purified regional synaptosomes inherently differ in their metabolism.

Non-glycolytic sources fuel the majority of OCR in the basal state of purified synaptosomes, even when glucose is saturating. This property predicts that glucose metabolism will differ among brain regions, as observed.

Second, glucose metabolism results in discrete non-glycolytic pools that are “signatures” for the regions and are poised to fuel distinct responses. The mapping provides one of the first integrated views of glucose processing among brain regions.

Third, OCR is similar in synaptosomes from all four brain regions in the resting brain, but heterogeneous contributions from non-glycolytic sources are unmasked during an energy crisis. Differences in basal metabolism provide a plausible basis for priming region-specific responses to an altered state.

Edited by lostfalco, 07 September 2013 - 12:17 AM.

[Nattzor]

www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/1lvm37/sleep_and_brain_energy_levels_atp_changes_during/ - Might reduce sleep needs, atleast helping with reducing sleep deprivation cognitive deficits.

Should I post this in the other thread too?

Think I drew conclusions way too fast, it might mean that we need MORE sleep.

How are you sleeping LostFalco? Do you know if most people usually find that they need increase, decrease or same amount of sleep?

[lostfalco]

www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/1lvm37/sleep_and_brain_energy_levels_atp_changes_during/ - Might reduce sleep needs, atleast helping with reducing sleep deprivation cognitive deficits.

Should I post this in the other thread too?

Think I drew conclusions way too fast, it might mean that we need MORE sleep.

How are you sleeping LostFalco? Do you know if most people usually find that they need increase, decrease or same amount of sleep?

I haven't had a chance to delve deeply into those studies yet...so I can't comment on your conclusions based on the research. =)

Personally, my sleep has never been better. I've never really had a problem with it though...luckily.

I have the VERY strong confounding factor of modafinil...so my anecdotes should be considered in light of that. I also pay close attention to my body and attempt to keep an extremely consistent sleeping schedule. If I'm tired, I sleep. If I sleep, I sleep until my body tells me to wake up (as far as possible). This has usually led to about 5.5 to 6.5 hours per night.

I use this guy when I wake up...pretty much every morning. It sits on my desk by my computer. http://www.amazon.co...uct/B000W8Y7FY/

My girlfriend has had extremely good results using these to solve her insomnia for the past 3 or 4 months. She won't go anywhere without them. She just puts them on an hour before she wants to fall asleep and is out like clockwork. I've never tried them though. Placebo? Could be...but it's always fun to mock her with 80's songs about wearing sunglasses at night. Poor girl. ha http://www.amazon.co.../dp/B000USRG90/

What have everyone else's experiences been like?

[aarfai]

A times this week I've woken up naturally from 3-4 hrs sleep feeling completely refreshed and normal. It's kinda a bit awkward being up at 4 am but in regards to ATP/sleep something is definitely happening with LLLT...

[BigPapaChakra]

www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/1lvm37/sleep_and_brain_energy_levels_atp_changes_during/ - Might reduce sleep needs, atleast helping with reducing sleep deprivation cognitive deficits.

Should I post this in the other thread too?

Think I drew conclusions way too fast, it might mean that we need MORE sleep.

How are you sleeping LostFalco? Do you know if most people usually find that they need increase, decrease or same amount of sleep?

I haven't had a chance to delve deeply into those studies yet...so I can't comment on your conclusions based on the research. =)

Personally, my sleep has never been better. I've never really had a problem with it though...luckily.

I have the VERY strong confounding factor of modafinil...so my anecdotes should be considered in light of that. I also pay close attention to my body and attempt to keep an extremely consistent sleeping schedule. If I'm tired, I sleep. If I sleep, I sleep until my body tells me to wake up (as far as possible). This has usually led to about 5.5 to 6.5 hours per night.

I use this guy when I wake up...pretty much every morning. It sits on my desk by my computer. http://www.amazon.co...uct/B000W8Y7FY/

My girlfriend has had extremely good results using these to solve her insomnia for the past 3 or 4 months. She won't go anywhere without them. She just puts them on an hour before she wants to fall asleep and is out like clockwork. I've never tried them though. Placebo? Could be...but it's always fun to mock her with 80's songs about wearing sunglasses at night. Poor girl. ha http://www.amazon.co.../dp/B000USRG90/

What have everyone else's experiences been like?

Those Uvex glasses your girlfriend wears - they're actually pretty good. When I first started digging into Dr. Kruse work a few months back I got them because they're so cheap. They work, but they're not the best. They've worked for me and when I first started wearing them I went from sleeping at 4am to falling asleep at about 1am. Now I just fall asleep whenever, typically between 12-3am, but I notice if I put them on later than normal, I'm up later and wake up more often during the night and when I finally awaken for good, I'm not as rested. They definitely help. If anyone's interested, join the group Circadian Biohackers on Facebook, and email the founder, Dan. He's developing his own glasses and claims that wearing them is like being in virtual darkness and renders purchasing those amber lights/night lights, screen blockers, becomes useless. Some people have worn his prototypes and have claimed they're amazing. Dr. Kruse, Paul Chek Jr., Tim Jackson, Ameer Rosic, and a bunch of other physicians, paleo dentists, bloggers, etc. post on that group - the information is amazing. Join up if you have a Facebook!

[lostfalco]

Those Uvex glasses your girlfriend wears - they're actually pretty good. When I first started digging into Dr. Kruse work a few months back I got them because they're so cheap. They work, but they're not the best. They've worked for me and when I first started wearing them I went from sleeping at 4am to falling asleep at about 1am. Now I just fall asleep whenever, typically between 12-3am, but I notice if I put them on later than normal, I'm up later and wake up more often during the night and when I finally awaken for good, I'm not as rested. They definitely help. If anyone's interested, join the group Circadian Biohackers on Facebook, and email the founder, Dan. He's developing his own glasses and claims that wearing them is like being in virtual darkness and renders purchasing those amber lights/night lights, screen blockers, becomes useless. Some people have worn his prototypes and have claimed they're amazing. Dr. Kruse, Paul Chek Jr., Tim Jackson, Ameer Rosic, and a bunch of other physicians, paleo dentists, bloggers, etc. post on that group - the information is amazing. Join up if you have a Facebook!

Thanks for the heads up Papa. I'll have to check that group out.

[lostfalco]

Please check out these movies on how ATP is made by ATP synthase...if you have time. They're extremely helpful in understanding what's going on at the molecular/cellular level. =)

Edited by lostfalco, 25 September 2013 - 04:08 AM.

[lostfalco]

Twin beads were attached to the gamma subunit, the F1 was attached to glass slide, ATP is added, and rotation is observed with a light microscope. Thanks to R. Berry, Oxford University
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOiwpW1sivA&feature=share&list=PL7B32AE4CCCA67E1E

Edited by lostfalco, 25 September 2013 - 04:12 AM.

[APBT]

PQQ activator of PGC-1alpha, SIRT3 and mitochondrial biogenesis
http://www.anti-agin...ial-biogenesis/

[lostfalco]

Kinda seems like ATP and purines (adenine, guanine, caffeine, etc.) might be a little important in the brain. =) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purine

"It is now recognized that ATP acts as either the sole transmitter or a co-transmitter in most nerves in both the peripheral nervous system and the central nervous system."

Adv Exp Med Biol. 2013;986:1-12. doi: 10.1007/978-94-007-4719-7_1.
Introduction to purinergic signalling in the brain.
Burnstock G.
Source
Autonomic Neuroscience Centre, University College Medical School, Royal Free Campus, Rowland Hill Street, NW3 2PF, London, UK. g.burnstock@ucl.ac.uk

Abstract
ATP is a cotransmitter with glutamate, noradrenaline, GABA, acetylcholine and dopamine in the brain. There is a widespread presence of both adenosine (P1) and P2 nucleotide receptors in the brain on both neurons and glial cells. Adenosine receptors play a major role in presynaptic neuromodulation, while P2X ionotropic receptors are involved in fast synaptic transmission and synaptic plasticity. P2Y G protein-coupled receptors are largely involved in presynaptic activities, as well as mediating long-term (trophic) signalling in cell proliferation, differentiation and death during development and regeneration. Both P1 and P2 receptors participate in neuron-glial interactions. Purinergic signalling is involved in control of cerebral vascular tone and remodelling and has been implicated in learning and memory, locomotor and feeding behaviour and sleep. There is increasing interest in the involvement of purinergic signalling in the pathophysiology of the CNS, including trauma, ischaemia, epilepsy, neurodegenerative diseases, neuropsychiatric and mood disorders, and cancer, including gliomas.

PQQ activator of PGC-1alpha, SIRT3 and mitochondrial biogenesis
http://www.anti-agin...ial-biogenesis/

Nice find APBT!

Edited by lostfalco, 29 September 2013 - 02:10 AM.

[lostfalco]

Compilation of 38 recent LLLT studies on hair loss, osteoarthritis, wound healing, muscle recovery, endurance training, etc. http://blog.thorlase...2013/#more-1525

[lostfalco]

Great full text article on the discovery of ATP (and purines) as a major neurotransmitter.
Full Text PDF: https://www.jstage.j...13-0003-RE/_pdf

Keio J Med. 2013;62(3):63-73.
Purinergic signalling: pathophysiology and therapeutic potential.

Burnstock G.
Source
Autonomic Neuroscience Centre, University College Medical School, London, UK.

Abstract
The article begins with a review of the main conceptual steps involved in the development of our understanding of purinergic signalling, including non-adrenergic, non-cholinergic (NANC) neurotransmission; identification of ATP as a NANC transmitter; purinergic cotransmission; recognition of two families of purinoceptors [P1 (adenosine) and P2 (ATP/ADP)]; and, later, cloning and characterisation of P1 (G protein-coupled), P2X (ion channel) and P2Y (G protein-coupled) receptor subtypes. Further studies have established the involvement of ATP in synaptic neurotransmission in both ganglia and in the central nervous system; long-term (trophic) purinergic signalling in cell proliferation, differentiation and death occurring in development and regeneration; and short-term purinergic signalling in neurotransmission, neuromodulation and secretion. ATP is released from most cell types in response to gentle mechanical stimulation and is rapidly degraded to adenosine by ecto-nucleotidases. This review then focuses on the pathophysiology of purinergic signalling in a wide variety of systems, including urinogenital, cardiovascular, airway, musculoskeletal and gastrointestinal. Consideration is also given to the involvement of purinoceptors in pain, cancer and diseases of the central nervous system. Purinergic therapeutic approaches for the treatment of some of these diseases are discussed.

Edited by lostfalco, 29 September 2013 - 10:23 PM.

[lostfalco]

Review article on LLLT and hair loss. I have a friend who used this with very impressive results.

Lasers Surg Med. 2013 Aug 23. doi: 10.1002/lsm.22170. [Epub ahead of print]
Low-level laser (light) therapy (LLLT) for treatment of hair loss.

Avci P, Gupta GK, Clark J, Wikonkal N, Hamblin MR.

"Controlled clinical trials demonstrated that LLLT stimulated hair growth in both men and women. Among various mechanisms, the main mechanism is hypothesized to be stimulation of epidermal stem cells in the hair follicle bulge and shifting the follicles into anagen phase."

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23970445

Study using 655nm lasers and LEDs in a helmet.

Conclusion: LLLT of the scalp at 655 nm significantly improved hair counts in males with androgenetic alopecia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24078483

Results: Forty-one patients completed the study (22 active, 19 placebo). No adverse events or side effects were reported. Baseline hair counts were 162.7 ± 95.9 (N = 22) in placebo and 142.0 ± 73.0 (N = 22) and active groups respectively (P = 0.426). Post Treatment hair counts were 162.4 ± 62.5 (N = 19) and 228.7 ± 102.8 (N = 22), respectively (P = 0.0161). A 39% percent hair increase was demonstrated (28.4 ± 46.2 placebo, N = 19; 67.2 ± 33.4, active, N = 22) (P = 0.001) Deleting one placebo group subject with a very high baseline count and a very large decrease, resulted in baseline hair counts of 151.1 ± 81.0 (N = 21) and 142.0 ± 73.0 (N = 22), respectively (P = 0.680). Post treatment hair counts were 158.2 ± 61.5 (N = 18) and 228.7 ± 102.8 (N = 22) (P = 0.011), resulting in a 35% percent increase in hair growth (32.3 ± 44.2, placebo, N = 18; 67.2 ± 33.4, active, N = 22) (P = 0.003).

Edited by lostfalco, 01 October 2013 - 01:43 PM.

[Nattzor]

Lasers Surg Med. 2013 Aug 23. doi: 10.1002/lsm.22170. [Epub ahead of print]
Low-level laser (light) therapy (LLLT) for treatment of hair loss.

Sucks that they only seem to use about 650 nm on the research for it. Something other they do "weird" is that they use it for 10-30 minutes EoD, do you know if 1-5 minutes would do anything?

[Ukko]

I have been toying around with boosting the Krebs and methylation cycles for soon a good 20 years. Some comments on my learnings:

- Carnitines: My current favorite is carnitine fumarate. Fumarate is a substance involved in the Krebs cycle. Nice bonus. Stay away from Carnitine tartrate, common as it is. Tartrate messes up ATP prodution as the body tries to use it like fumarate, but that blocks the cycle. Acetylcarnitine is OK, but in higher doses gives me jitters and anxiety. Likely because it boosts acetylcholine and I am acetylcholine dominant. The one I have been toying around lately is propionyl carnitine. Does not cross the BBB as well as some others, but works better to energize the muscle incl. the heart.

- Q10. Well, this should be da shite. And it is most definetly implicated in the Krebs cycle. I have never noticed anything. Never. Even bought the local original stuff from Japan, still nothing. Currently trying ubiquinol for the past year together with shilajit. Subtle effects. I may be too young for this stuff to be really necessary.

- Lipoic acid. Wow. A master nutrient if there ever was one. Be warned though that it is a glucose and insulin mop, in a profoundly healthy way. But if you go low carb, then you need to reduce this stuff. Been on both racemic and at times R-isomer version for 15 years non stop. Good stuff.

- PQQ. Introduces this a year ago. Seems promising. Better response with 40-60mg daily doses, which gets pricey for me.

- Zinc, Magnesium and Manganese. The odds are that you are deficient in these. Some stuff everyone should supplement and key for mitochondria.

- Methylation factors like methylfolate, methylcobalamin, SAM-E, TMG, P-5-P and the like. Works miracles, but really really difficult to get right stuff in right doses. For that, you really need to get your 23andme.com methylation gene testing results. Other than that, you will be shooting in the blind and may get yourself into quite bad shape in a heartbeat. Still very important to get this cycle, that parallels the ATP cycle correct. If you doubt me, read up on BH4 aka tetrahydrobiopterin.

- NADH. Sublingual. Whoa. Aubrey called it the physiological rocket fuel and advised against it. And it is. A high dose sublingual NADH lifts brainfog like nothing else. Not really part of the Krebs cycle, really a result of it. But supplementing can aid in mitigating the symptoms of mitochondrial dysfunction.

- D-ribose. Not sure it does much.

- Creatine. Works, helps bridge the energy gap, also in the brain, when ATP is low. Really wonderful in a subtle but persistent way.

- Pyruvate. Never had much results with this stuff.

- Malate. Go for magnesium malate. Two things that help with ATP production with malate even being a part of the Krebs cycle. Subtle but important help.

....and if you want a shortcut...to feel like you would if your ATP cycle and methylation cycles were humming perfectly...stack some EGCG, rhodiola, querceting and phenylethylamine. And boy will it be nice. You will crash also though. Don't do this often, please.

[AscendantMind]

So... I found this.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22655115

Basically, the researchers tested CoQ10 in conjunction with alpha-lipoic acid. The result, they found, was an increase of levels of PGC1α, a "master switch of energy metabolism and mitochondrial biogenesis."

Considering that ALA is also synergistic with acetyl-L-carnitine, which is also important in mitochondrial energy, it seems reasonable to add ALA to the stack.

[lostfalco]

A fascinating new use for near infrared light...cellular microscopy.

http://www.kurzweila...fluidic-devices

[lostfalco]

An article for the uber nerds (like me) which explains recent research on how proton pumping works. It's actually a very interesting finding...but, ya know...you've been warned. =) http://www.jbc.org/c...113.473983.long

Edited by lostfalco, 04 October 2013 - 02:13 PM.

[zawy]

I got the same hair growth result as they did: 35% increase in hair growth rate of my zero percent hair growth is zero. 67 J/cm^2 for 60 treatments in balding men. That's a huge opportunity in a mental enhancement study they missed out on. Maybe you could write the researchers and see if the subjects reporting any other changes like better memory or more activity.

[lostfalco]

I got the same hair growth result as they did: 35% increase in hair growth rate of my zero percent hair growth is zero. :) 67 J/cm^2 for 60 treatments in balding men. That's a huge opportunity in a mental enhancement study they missed out on. Maybe you could write the researchers and see if the subjects reporting any other changes like better memory or more activity.

haha Yeah, hair regrowth results have been a bit mixed. On the bright side, you don't have to worry about hair absorbing any of the photons meant for your brain! I've seriously been thinking about shaving my head for a while. I know that OpaqueMind did back in May and he's been having really good transcranial results the past few months.

[zawy]

I've got the parts ordered for 2,200 LED 850 nm with variable pulsing. I'm also working on a new 5000 LED 850 nm "bed". I may make and sell 500 LED flat panel helmets (with adjustable pulsing for research). 850 nm.