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The Beauty of Life Lies in Its Complexity

life beauty logic deduction analysis philosophy science biomedical intervention sens

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#1 N.T.M.

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 05:40 AM


I just posted this in my blog, but the point is significant enough that I thought I'd post it here as well. In my post I explain how complexity is a precondition for unlimited lifespans and that those who oppose the movement using the opposite premise (contending that life is shallow enough that extending it is unneeded) are necessarily very simple. Additionally, I explain the restrictions that the premise places on those who use it.

Anyway, I thought it would make a good topic for discussion.

Here's a copy of my post:

The beauty of life lies in its complexity. That statement outlines one of the key incentives for those who wish to achieve indefinite life extension, and for obvious reasons, too. Often a central point in arguments opposing this movement is that the additional time offered is simply unneeded (A stance that I’ve jokingly come to call an “argument from superfluity.”). People taking this position contend that we’re already allotted adequate time to fully pursue our interests, or, at the very least, to pursue them to a reasonable extent. The problem with this argument is that it implies a very narrow set of criteria for what constitutes fulfillment, according to which, essentially, the purpose of life, and therefore the source of fulfillment, is to grow up, reproduce, raise your offspring, assist in raising your offspring’s offspring, and then promptly die. Somewhere in there there’s also a handful of attempts to make trivial advances in the workplace, and perhaps a little room for simple hobbies, but little beyond that. In short, it carries a Darwinian-like simplicity, which is great (After all, it’s why we’re here!), but entirely out of place for a time that offers so much in the way of complexity.

Now at this point most readers are probably thinking that I’m being unduly pejorative in my depiction of common values. Well, that’s not entirely accurate (note that partial concession), and here’s why. To argue that a fulfilling life can be achieved in so little time as the current average lifespan you must, as I said above, live in a grotesquely shallow manner. Why? If you did anything beyond that you’d be tapping a source that couldn’t be fully explored within you’re provided time, and, in consequence, your premise would fall. This is why people who oppose extending the human lifespan on this premise are necessarily simple. If they weren’t, they’d contradict their own premise.

Conversely, this also shows that those who support the movement must thrive on the complexity of life, assuming that they don’t want to live in boredom (or mindlessly) and that their choice is not motivated by the fear of death. *Backing up a second...* The word must is a very sticky word, so it’s worth taking a moment to discuss it further. The statement is restrictive because, given the conditions listed (the three negatives above), complexity is a precondition for indefinite life extension. Logically, then, if for a given person only one thing were needed (exempting biological needs, etc.), then it must fall within this class of complexity, which carries with it yet another implication: The class must be very flexible as to be able to encompass a myriad of subclasses without contradiction. For example, if a person were to claim to live solely for the purpose of love, love would necessarily be considered a subclass within the main class, complexity. Anything else would result in a contradiction. In summary, it’s an interesting point, but it’s more academic than anything else.

All right, so I’ve shown how thriving on complexity is necessary if one wants to live indefinitely, and, equally important, I’ve described the conditions that must be met for this statement to be accurate, but so far I’ve sidestepped discussing the connection between beauty and complexity. Unfortunately, it may be less than thrilling. The connection is more abstract than anything else. You could, however, attempt to make it a little more concrete by using a series of equations. So, here it goes: Assuming that what is necessary for life is also good, then complexity is good, and if you equate good with an abstract form of beauty, then complexity carries with it an abstract form of beauty (This bears a striking resemblance to objectivistic epistemology, don’t you think?). Of course, that’s not exactly what I said now, is it? Those equations don’t preclude the possibility that beauty may be derived from non-complex entities, which clearly contradicts the statement. I could go on to defend it further, but there’s really no point. I’ll concede right now that I chose that statement only for its aesthetic value.

And there it is! The whole premise underlying this blog. In hindsight, perhaps a more appropriate title would have been “Complexity as a Precondition for Life.” It may have also proven to be more provocative, but it lacks that flair that I’m after. There’s something poignant about the word beauty.

#2 mrd1

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 12:44 PM

I think it is probable that such a misapplication of Darwinian theory may be the result of the lack of depth explored in the general education system leading to form false conclusions about what the natural thing to do is.

Firstly, what are the TWO main functions of a orgasm
1) to insure the survival of the species
2) to insure the survival of ones genes (including himself)
2a) there are times when orgasms cause their own death. However, that in animals, insects, etc. is because it makes sense AFTER you factor in the survival of genes or species. Example, a bug blowing up to protect their little "city"

Now, we know that from a Darwinian standpoint yes success is defined as the reproduction and survival of offspring.

And, that is where people trip up NOT only do they have to REPRODUCE the OFFSPRING MUST SURVIVE.

The amount of time you can reproduce is at the moment limited HOWEVER, science has already expanded it exponentially

A woman can reproduce for DECADES when we used to die in our early decades

But, lets go past mere reproduction because as humans we spend CONSIDERABLE amount of time with the second part ensuring the survival of our young.

Based on this, from a true Darwinian standpoint, the evolutionary advantage to a longer life is limitless EVEN in POST REPRODUCTIVE AGE because you can always improve the probability of your genes, direct offspring, or humans in general surviving.

#3 N.T.M.

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 10:11 PM

I think it is probable that such a misapplication of Darwinian theory may be the result of the lack of depth explored in the general education system leading to form false conclusions about what the natural thing to do is.

Firstly, what are the TWO main functions of a orgasm
1) to insure the survival of the species
2) to insure the survival of ones genes (including himself)
2a) there are times when orgasms cause their own death. However, that in animals, insects, etc. is because it makes sense AFTER you factor in the survival of genes or species. Example, a bug blowing up to protect their little "city"

Now, we know that from a Darwinian standpoint yes success is defined as the reproduction and survival of offspring.

And, that is where people trip up NOT only do they have to REPRODUCE the OFFSPRING MUST SURVIVE.

The amount of time you can reproduce is at the moment limited HOWEVER, science has already expanded it exponentially

A woman can reproduce for DECADES when we used to die in our early decades

But, lets go past mere reproduction because as humans we spend CONSIDERABLE amount of time with the second part ensuring the survival of our young.

Based on this, from a true Darwinian standpoint, the evolutionary advantage to a longer life is limitless EVEN in POST REPRODUCTIVE AGE because you can always improve the probability of your genes, direct offspring, or humans in general surviving.


That's quite true... from a Darwinian standpoint. But one of my points was that the Darwinian premise is anachronistic. Why should we, as evolved as we are, be living like monkeys? It's ridiculous, but this is what the there's-already-enough-time premise implies (albeit not entirely; hence "Darwinian-like").

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#4 mrd1

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 09:14 PM

Hmmm, well I live like a monkey because I base my behavior in biology to maximize my happiness. However, if your not interested in maximizing happiness my animal-like way of living might just offend. If, your interested in philosophy, which I suspect by your level of philosophic writing, and you believe that to act human is the absolute ideal than, regardless of what science says is best you already have your answer because, if you want to be philosophic than it would be what you think is ideal rather than what objective reality is. But, that isn't for me so I'll stick to females, food, status, and a enriched environment.

#5 N.T.M.

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 11:40 PM

Hmmm, well I live like a monkey because I base my behavior in biology to maximize my happiness. However, if your not interested in maximizing happiness my animal-like way of living might just offend. If, your interested in philosophy, which I suspect by your level of philosophic writing, and you believe that to act human is the absolute ideal than, regardless of what science says is best you already have your answer because, if you want to be philosophic than it would be what you think is ideal rather than what objective reality is. But, that isn't for me so I'll stick to females, food, status, and a enriched environment.


I didn't mean to demean the necessity of basic biological needs. I only meant that it seems very odd for people, being so highly evolved, to commit themselves to such a narrow scope of living. At some point the intellect should take over and people should be able to assign value to things that don't possess any obvious Darwinian utility; cosmology, for example.

Another point that I made in my post was that, given a set of conditions, if a person wants to live indefinitely, he/she must step outside of this Darwinian circle and place value on something that's inexhaustible (physics, philosophy, cosmology, etc.).

#6 Marios Kyriazis

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 06:25 PM

Hmmm, well I live like a monkey because I base my behavior in biology to maximize my happiness. However, if your not interested in maximizing happiness my animal-like way of living might just offend. If, your interested in philosophy, which I suspect by your level of philosophic writing, and you believe that to act human is the absolute ideal than, regardless of what science says is best you already have your answer because, if you want to be philosophic than it would be what you think is ideal rather than what objective reality is. But, that isn't for me so I'll stick to females, food, status, and a enriched environment.


I didn't mean to demean the necessity of basic biological needs. I only meant that it seems very odd for people, being so highly evolved, to commit themselves to such a narrow scope of living. At some point the intellect should take over and people should be able to assign value to things that don't possess any obvious Darwinian utility; cosmology, for example.

Another point that I made in my post was that, given a set of conditions, if a person wants to live indefinitely, he/she must step outside of this Darwinian circle and place value on something that's inexhaustible (physics, philosophy, cosmology, etc.).


N.T.M. I agree with you. I believe that the pathway to indefinite lifespans is not just to repair what is damaged by aging but mainly to live a complex life, have vision, intellectual sophistication and engage fully with technology, as well as being hyperconnected in the virtual world.

#7 mrd1

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 07:53 PM

Isn't wanting to preserve oneself and ones species survival the most basic Darwinian like need of an organism? Engaging in technology a tool exploring the environment seeking to learn and explain and form concepts communicating these are all just more advanced versions of what lower order organisms already do. I think the best way to extend human life is to use aggressively our intellect and tools but realize that this is not unnatural and the actual natural way. It would be unnatural to not use what we can do. But, if we try to think yourself some magical thing more than chemistry cells molecules and isotopes etc. Than we are doomed to suffer in our divinity.

My life is very simple, how I go about it is very complex; and, what I am unaware of is too infinitely complex for me to completely ever grasp in its complexity beyond the eye.

#8 johnross47

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 08:50 PM

As someone who doesn't think that the truth is probably always somewhere in the middle, I have to reluctantly say that I see merit in both sides of this, but fortunately I think I can probably have the best of both worlds. I hugely enjoy the monkey physical side of it but I get bored very quickly if I don't have intellectual and artistic food too. If somebody came up with a treatment tomorrow, to give up us an indefinitely extended life, I would go back to school, but I would also throw myself into the physical pleasures, food, drink, exercise, sex, drugs and rock'nroll.
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#9 N.T.M.

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 01:15 AM

N.T.M. I agree with you. I believe that the pathway to indefinite lifespans is not just to repair what is damaged by aging but mainly to live a complex life, have vision, intellectual sophistication and engage fully with technology, as well as being hyperconnected in the virtual world.


Absolutely. The pursuit of indefinite lifespans shouldn't be motivated by the fear of death, but by the wonder that comes from the complexity of the universe and all it has to offer (That may have come across as overreachingly poignant, but I mean it.).


Isn't wanting to preserve oneself and ones species survival the most basic Darwinian like need of an organism? Engaging in technology a tool exploring the environment seeking to learn and explain and form concepts communicating these are all just more advanced versions of what lower order organisms already do. I think the best way to extend human life is to use aggressively our intellect and tools but realize that this is not unnatural and the actual natural way. It would be unnatural to not use what we can do. But, if we try to think yourself some magical thing more than chemistry cells molecules and isotopes etc. Than we are doomed to suffer in our divinity.

My life is very simple, how I go about it is very complex; and, what I am unaware of is too infinitely complex for me to completely ever grasp in its complexity beyond the eye.


Yes, the impulse to propagate one's species is the simplest, and possibly the oldest, Darwinian trait. The problem, however, is when people posit this as a moral imperative, which I think is hardly justified. Put simply, we want to reproduce because if we didn't, we wouldn't be here, but there's nothing magical about it.

As someone who doesn't think that the truth is probably always somewhere in the middle, I have to reluctantly say that I see merit in both sides of this, but fortunately I think I can probably have the best of both worlds. I hugely enjoy the monkey physical side of it but I get bored very quickly if I don't have intellectual and artistic food too. If somebody came up with a treatment tomorrow, to give up us an indefinitely extended life, I would go back to school, but I would also throw myself into the physical pleasures, food, drink, exercise, sex, drugs and rock'nroll.


I'd do the same thing. You have to enjoy both sides, and I acknowledged this by placing restrictions on having to thrive on complexity to live indefinitely. Basically, I structured my argument to make contradiction impossible, which I later criticized by showing that the structure revolves around a tautology, by which I mean it takes the form P → P (see this). That being said, I still think I made a valid point. It's just that taking a different approach would have required a far more lengthy post. That's how philosophy goes, though. :)

Edited by N.T.M., 20 November 2013 - 01:30 AM.


#10 mrd1

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:13 AM

Hmm thank you for challenging my brain and reducing my risk for age related cognitive decline haha atleast know someone appreciated all your academic talk on your tautology post although, I haven't read much philosophy. ! :)

I do agree that your argument seems pretty valid.

However, my concern over the truth of the argument is that everything is complex therefore one couldn't one argue even the infinite complexity of a rock is complex and therefore required. I think what you mean is that our actions must be complex if we want to live indefinitely which id agree on that part it takes complex behaviors to live forever because, if it was simple people would of stumbled upon it.

#11 Marios Kyriazis

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 11:40 AM

Complexity is vital in achieving indefinite life extension. Most peole believe that the natural tendency of evolution is only towards survival. This is true in a way but it doesn't end there. The tendency of evolution is, once survival is assured, to continue increasing complexity, perhaps indefinitely, or untill it reaches stages we haven't even dreamed of.

Edited by Marios Kyriazis, 20 November 2013 - 11:41 AM.


#12 N.T.M.

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 11:14 PM

Hmm thank you for challenging my brain and reducing my risk for age related cognitive decline haha atleast know someone appreciated all your academic talk on your tautology post although, I haven't read much philosophy. ! :)


Thanks. It's good to know somebody appreciated it (I know some of my posts can be fairly esoteric.). :)

I do agree that your argument seems pretty valid.

However, my concern over the truth of the argument is that everything is complex therefore one couldn't one argue even the infinite complexity of a rock is complex and therefore required. I think what you mean is that our actions must be complex if we want to live indefinitely which id agree on that part it takes complex behaviors to live forever because, if it was simple people would of stumbled upon it.


Yes, by complexity I didn't mean all complexity, but just that, given a set of conditions, some complexity is required (you can be selective). I tried to present it as a precondition to indefinite lifespans because the purpose of life at that point must--again, assuming the set of conditions I mentioned in my original post--be fueled by something inexhaustible.

Complexity is vital in achieving indefinite life extension. Most peole believe that the natural tendency of evolution is only towards survival. This is true in a way but it doesn't end there. The tendency of evolution is, once survival is assured, to continue increasing complexity, perhaps indefinitely, or untill it reaches stages we haven't even dreamed of.


I would have to politely disagree and say that complexity is only a product of a species' survival, and I say this because evolution is, by definition, the change that occurs due to selection; in other words, it only occurs due to death. Anything, then, that occurs over time (change) must be something that confers an advantage with respect to survival, and because species often evolve in tandem, complexity occurs.

There's also genetic drift, etc., but that's more of a semantical point.

#13 Marios Kyriazis

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 03:51 PM

I would have to politely disagree and say that complexity is only a product of a species' survival, and I say this because evolution is, by definition, the change that occurs due to selection; in other words, it only occurs due to death. Anything, then, that occurs over time (change) must be something that confers an advantage with respect to survival, and because species often evolve in tandem, complexity occurs.


Complexity is the amount of information present in an organism, needed in order to assure survival in a specified environment. Because humans live in an ever-increasing technological environement, their degree of complexity must also increase (based on Ashby's law of requisite variety). We have now gone beyond simple survival and have started exploring other sophisticated issues (technology, philosophy etc). Some evolutionary biologists and philosophers believe that the next stage in our evolution is to achieve 'god-like' characteristics such as:

omnipresence (twitter, facebook, other social media, live TV, iphones etc),
omniscience (goolge, wikipedia etc)
omnipotence (not there yet, but consider nuclear technology, space travel)
omnibenevolence (again, not there yet)

None of these can be seen as mere 'survival'. I agree that evolution is change that happens due to selection, but it is not necessary to have death in order to evolve. People can still change in order to fit their environment if they live for much longer than currently (but not for ever).

#14 N.T.M.

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 12:31 AM

I would have to politely disagree and say that complexity is only a product of a species' survival, and I say this because evolution is, by definition, the change that occurs due to selection; in other words, it only occurs due to death. Anything, then, that occurs over time (change) must be something that confers an advantage with respect to survival, and because species often evolve in tandem, complexity occurs.


Complexity is the amount of information present in an organism, needed in order to assure survival in a specified environment. Because humans live in an ever-increasing technological environement, their degree of complexity must also increase (based on Ashby's law of requisite variety). We have now gone beyond simple survival and have started exploring other sophisticated issues (technology, philosophy etc). Some evolutionary biologists and philosophers believe that the next stage in our evolution is to achieve 'god-like' characteristics such as:

omnipresence (twitter, facebook, other social media, live TV, iphones etc),
omniscience (goolge, wikipedia etc)
omnipotence (not there yet, but consider nuclear technology, space travel)
omnibenevolence (again, not there yet)

None of these can be seen as mere 'survival'. I agree that evolution is change that happens due to selection, but it is not necessary to have death in order to evolve. People can still change in order to fit their environment if they live for much longer than currently (but not for ever).


I agree. It seems that there's really no disagreement here. I was just using a more narrow definition of evolution. On a separate note, if you define evolution in terms of a ratio of change, then there doesn't have to be any death, even within the more narrow definition.

#15 mrd1

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:09 PM

A cognitive map (also: mental map or mental model) is a type of mental representation which serves an individual to acquire, code, store, recall, and decode information about the relative locations and attributes of phenomena in their everyday or metaphorical spatial environment.

Latent learning is a form of learning that is not immediately expressed in an overt response; it occurs without any obvious reinforcement of the behavior or associations that are learned.[1] Interest in latent learning arose largely because the phenomenon seemed to conflict with the widely held view that reinforcement was necessary for learning to occur.


I believe that given this, there is no need to expand past science and evolution to something based on philosophy.

As animals we explore out environment so they we can better navigate later on even if there isn't a ovulating woman behind one of the doors or a big mac. Also, while we can be classically and operantly conditions to cause strong changes in our behaviors and reponse towards stimuli like all other animals we engage in latent learning were we do things despite no obvious reinforcement.

The latent learning will be ever more and more complex as we build things like cognitive maps reducing our cognitive load allowing us to up the bar indefinitely however this is not uniquely human nor is it unnatural.

In fact, it would be much more unnatural to eat watch a adult film then go back to sleep. Just because my latent learning might be calculus rather then walking around a maze for no reason doesn't elevate to some higher height., IMO

#16 AgeVivo

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 08:54 PM

"The Beauty of Life Lies in Its Complexity" ???

I am passing by and answering without having read the thread. To me this sounds like "the beauty of aging is that xxx". A friend of mine says that if humans had terrible headaches at noon (and so for thousands of years) there would be philosophers explaining how great that is (to learn endurance to pain, etc).

#17 N.T.M.

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:04 PM

"The Beauty of Life Lies in Its Complexity" ???

I am passing by and answering without having read the thread. To me this sounds like "the beauty of aging is that xxx". A friend of mine says that if humans had terrible headaches at noon (and so for thousands of years) there would be philosophers explaining how great that is (to learn endurance to pain, etc).


Absolutely not. There's nothing beautiful about aging, at least not about what it connotes in this context. If anything, in fact, I'd have to say this contends the opposite: That people have become desensitized to something (aging) terrible.

#18 johnross47

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 01:45 PM

Complexity derived from evolution only takes you as far as the age of reproduction. After that you have epigenetic changes outside the evolutionary process; do they increase or decrease complexity? Or do they just rearrange things, leaving the complexly interrelated somatic components just as they were, except for which parts are active and which are not. They alter gene expression obviously, but are potentially reversible, which, as has been mentioned at various other places here, might be a route to some aspects of rejuvenation, or even the whole thing. Altering the individual in this way would obviously impact on all the surrounding others; in a complex way. There are sci-fi books on this sort of topic, Peter Hamilton's "Misspent Youth" for one.
I wonder how choosy you could be about what you change; I'm definitely calmer than I used to be, but on the downside, I don't get so excited by good stuff.

#19 N.T.M.

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 08:13 AM

Complexity derived from evolution only takes you as far as the age of reproduction.


Generally, yes; however, I thought about this for a minute and realized that you could indirectly affect evolution even after the age of reproduction. For example, if people were to live longer, they could care for their families (their children's children, etc,) longer, which would perpetuate their genes and in turn indirectly support the genes for longevity.

I wonder how choosy you could be about what you change; I'm definitely calmer than I used to be, but on the downside, I don't get so excited by good stuff.


It's an intriguing idea.

#20 johnross47

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 04:32 PM

curiously, just after making that last post I read a couple of articles in last week's New Scientist, one on reprogramming T cells to attack cancer. (the other, not really relevant here was on rejuvenating skin with very dilute bleach;0.005% hypochlorite). There seems to be more and more work going on in the area of reprogramming some cell or other.
With regard to the benefits of grandparents for group survival, there are grandmothers under 30 around here. Would they still have been reproducing back in the stone age? We don't know of course, at what age females became fertile back then, or how many survived beyond fertility. As far as I recall there have been few skeletons found over the low 40s. (any at all?) Now we have the contrary situation of puberty starting earlier than ever, just as we are increasing the time spent learning to join the adult world.
Which leads me to wonder; our society now is massively more complex and more connected than in the past, but are people limiting the amount of interaction they have to the same amount they had before. Might the level of interaction that people had in small village/tribal groups have added up to the same mental load as we have now; we just spread ourselves more thinly?

#21 Marios Kyriazis

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 06:48 PM

Might the level of interaction that people had in small village/tribal groups have added up to the same mental load as we have now; we just spread ourselves more thinly?


People living in small/tribal groups (i.e. in hunter/gatherer or agricultural societies) had (or have) little to think about: have sex, eat, find shelter, dig the land, collect some fruit or nuts. Whereas we in a modern technological society have to cope with urban transport in megacities, multicultural ethics, global digital communication, biotechnology etc etc. Our degree of complex interactions is way ahead, compared to the past. This is changing our evolutionary process, be that epigenetic or otherwise.

#22 johnross47

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 08:46 PM

Might the level of interaction that people had in small village/tribal groups have added up to the same mental load as we have now; we just spread ourselves more thinly?


People living in small/tribal groups (i.e. in hunter/gatherer or agricultural societies) had (or have) little to think about: have sex, eat, find shelter, dig the land, collect some fruit or nuts. Whereas we in a modern technological society have to cope with urban transport in megacities, multicultural ethics, global digital communication, biotechnology etc etc. Our degree of complex interactions is way ahead, compared to the past. This is changing our evolutionary process, be that epigenetic or otherwise.


I suspect many anthropologists would hesitate to agree with that. Have you read Jared Diamond's "The World Until Yesterday", for example? The "primitive" people he describes lived (some still live) in a world of massive unsuspected complexity. When every tree or bush or stranger could be life threatening and your complicated relationships to your own village and the surrounding villages have to be taken into account at every second, life is not simple. In two villages at war there will be people born in the enemy village because of marrying out customs. You might have cousins in all of the surrounding villages and have to cope with the constantly changing alliances and feuds. If you have to juggle the planting of 20 or more varieties of sweet potato to allow for the variations in conditions from year to year and between patches of ground but without computers or agricultural advisers, life is tricky. Then there are all the religious issues. Never a dull moment in the stone age.

Edited by johnross47, 28 November 2013 - 08:50 PM.


#23 Marios Kyriazis

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 09:12 PM

Might the level of interaction that people had in small village/tribal groups have added up to the same mental load as we have now; we just spread ourselves more thinly?


People living in small/tribal groups (i.e. in hunter/gatherer or agricultural societies) had (or have) little to think about: have sex, eat, find shelter, dig the land, collect some fruit or nuts. Whereas we in a modern technological society have to cope with urban transport in megacities, multicultural ethics, global digital communication, biotechnology etc etc. Our degree of complex interactions is way ahead, compared to the past. This is changing our evolutionary process, be that epigenetic or otherwise.


I suspect many anthropologists would hesitate to agree with that. Have you read Jared Diamond's "The World Until Yesterday", for example? The "primitive" people he describes lived (some still live) in a world of massive unsuspected complexity. When every tree or bush or stranger could be life threatening and your complicated relationships to your own village and the surrounding villages have to be taken into account at every second, life is not simple. In two villages at war there will be people born in the enemy village because of marrying out customs. You might have cousins in all of the surrounding villages and have to cope with the constantly changing alliances and feuds. If you have to juggle the planting of 20 or more varieties of sweet potato to allow for the variations in conditions from year to year and between patches of ground but without computers or agricultural advisers, life is tricky. Then there are all the religious issues. Never a dull moment in the stone age.


Modern life exposes us to an enormously more amount of complexity compared to 'primitive people' We have to do those things you mention in modern life (but just give them different names) plus much more. I speak from personal experience after living for several years in a 'primitive' situation. My life in London now is enormously more complicated in comparison.

#24 johnross47

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 11:34 AM

Might the level of interaction that people had in small village/tribal groups have added up to the same mental load as we have now; we just spread ourselves more thinly?


People living in small/tribal groups (i.e. in hunter/gatherer or agricultural societies) had (or have) little to think about: have sex, eat, find shelter, dig the land, collect some fruit or nuts. Whereas we in a modern technological society have to cope with urban transport in megacities, multicultural ethics, global digital communication, biotechnology etc etc. Our degree of complex interactions is way ahead, compared to the past. This is changing our evolutionary process, be that epigenetic or otherwise.


I suspect many anthropologists would hesitate to agree with that. Have you read Jared Diamond's "The World Until Yesterday", for example? The "primitive" people he describes lived (some still live) in a world of massive unsuspected complexity. When every tree or bush or stranger could be life threatening and your complicated relationships to your own village and the surrounding villages have to be taken into account at every second, life is not simple. In two villages at war there will be people born in the enemy village because of marrying out customs. You might have cousins in all of the surrounding villages and have to cope with the constantly changing alliances and feuds. If you have to juggle the planting of 20 or more varieties of sweet potato to allow for the variations in conditions from year to year and between patches of ground but without computers or agricultural advisers, life is tricky. Then there are all the religious issues. Never a dull moment in the stone age.


Modern life exposes us to an enormously more amount of complexity compared to 'primitive people' We have to do those things you mention in modern life (but just give them different names) plus much more. I speak from personal experience after living for several years in a 'primitive' situation. My life in London now is enormously more complicated in comparison.



sounds interesting. Can you elaborate?

#25 Marios Kyriazis

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 01:12 PM

sounds interesting. Can you elaborate?


To be fair, we need to separate hunter gatherer societies from agricultural ones. The first have led a much more complex life compared to the second. Nevertheless, our modern life still exposes us to dramatically more complexity.

You say: "When every tree or bush or stranger could be life threatening and your complicated relationships to your own village and the surrounding villages have to be taken into account at every second".

Yes but how many trees or strangers could they be exposed to in one day? Let's say a total of 1000 items (trees, animals and people). Or 2000. In my everyday life in rush hour central London I am exposed to, say, half a million people. I need to assess each and every one of them for potential danger, friendship, attractiveness, possibility of assault. Am I in their way, is there a risk of a riot, a flash mob, a traffic jam that can alter my plans? etc

You say:
"If you have to juggle the planting of 20 or more varieties of sweet potato to allow for the variations in conditions from year to year and between patches of ground but without computers or agricultural advisers, life is tricky".

As a medical doctor I have to deal with, say, from 30 to 100 complicated and demanding patients a day. Other professionals are in the same position. Yes, I accept that one needs to plant according to the season, in a suitable place etc, but this does not require the complexity or intellectual rigour needed to deal with an instantly and continually changing modern life situation. And if you compare this with the average individual in an agricultural society, then the difference is significant. I lived in an agricultural village where people plough their fields once a year, throw some cow dung on the fields once a year and collect their crops once a year. That's it, they spend the rest of the time drinking coffee and wine.

And I haven't started on the digital communication hyperconnectivity issue yet. We need to be more complex (i.e. to contain more information) because our lives are more complex. This is now changing the process of our evolution.

Edited by Marios Kyriazis, 29 November 2013 - 01:13 PM.


#26 johnross47

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 08:52 PM

I was specifically thinking of hunter-gatherers, as described in the Jared Diamond book. Some of the more basic agricultural societies probably do have the least complex lives of all.....I lived in the mountains of Jamaica in the 70s in a village without running water and where only a few houses had power; life there was very simple for many people.....but the dangers experienced by hunter gatherers are on a wholly different scale. My other point was that although we might be exposed to 500,000 people in a day, most of them are background....they have to be.....16 hours =57600 seconds and divided by 500,000 it gives you 0.1152 seconds per person. In reality we chunk information. We ignore most of the people we pass. Most of the people on the underground we never see at all. (My life is simpler in rural Scotland.) If I'm making a pot my thoughts are very limited and largely physical; if I'm painting, the object itslef is far more complex and the relationships involved between me and it and my history are extremely complex, but at any one time I am thinking mostly of very simple things such as how this colour will look against that, whether it needs to be lighter or darker to fit into the whole arrangement; and the whole is visually simplified for that purpose, often by distance or by screwing up my eyes or using a mirror or a lens. Most tasks when we look at them carefully are dealt with simple bit by simple bit.

#27 jroseland

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Posted 29 January 2021 - 08:31 AM

Philosophically speaking beauty is crucial, we should all aspire to beauty and try to surround ourselves with beauty because beauty is undeniable and it reminds us of the important undeniable truths...
 
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