22 replies to this topic

[AscendantMind]

Hey guys. I'm fairly new here, but I'd like to share some strange results of an experiment I'm doing, and ask your opinions on those results. I'll post more detailed information on the experiment once it's concluded.

Basically, this is designed to improve my fluid intelligence. I'm implementing the following protocol:

• nIR HEG training every other day
• Dual N-Back 5 days a week
• tDCS of F3 (the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex) every other n-back session
• 30 minutes of zazen meditation 5-7 times weekly (20 minutes sitting, 10 minutes walking), with 60 minutes of this on weekend days
• Daily supplementation of 1 gram Lion's Mane Mushroom
• Consumption of 2 lbs of pacific salmon weekly (for the neuroplasticity-enhancing effects of DHA)
• Overall low-carb diet

Currently I'm a little more than halfway into the experiment, which will last for 20 sessions each of nIR HEG and dual n-back. Keep in mind that this is the first time I've done tDCS or nIR HEG, and also the first time in a year that I've done n-back training.

In the last few days, I've suddenly experienced a huge change with the following aspects, some positive and negative:

Positive:

• Sudden jump in n-back level
• Sudden gain in nIR HEG ability (I can consciously increase PFC bloodflow by up to 30% within a couple of minutes)
• Ability to get quickly and deeply absorbed in whatever enters my visual field (things seem more visually interesting and present; I notice more small things; I can stare at the faces of people driving cars for many minutes at a time; I can get into what I read more and read faster)
• Reduction of internal thoughts
• Noticeable ability to keep multiple things in mind at once (that is, I can multitask and juggle more things in short term memory at once, executing complex multi-step tasks without forgetting the initial steps)
• Greater automaticity and flow (I can perform tasks, like typing one thing while saying another, without much conscious thought)

Negative/Neutral:

• Sudden strange heavy mental feeling, something like what you'd experience after spending hours reading a book or meditating and then suddenly stopped and tried to rejoin the real world. This feeling has been constant for the last 4 days and not entirely pleasant. Could this be a kind of mind fog?
• Sudden sharp decline in sleep quality (as determined by deep sleep percentage measured by actigraph), following by a very sharp increase in sleep quality (decline to 30%, increase to 61%; my consistent score is usually around 45%)
• Slight headaches
• Difficulty in concentrating on what people are saying unless it is interesting--partly because my thoughts can go five different directions within the space of someone saying a sentence
• Difficulty concentrating on work when there is so much interesting stuff on Longecity

Number one (of the negative items) is the most vexing. Might I have overtaxed my PFC? Should I perhaps allot more time for recovery? Have any of you experienced anything like this when testing any of the interventions in my protocol?

Any advice would be helpful. Perhaps this is a stage I should push through, or perhaps I should take a break, or perhaps I should take glutathione or oxeloacetate to reduce mind fog.

[Raisinthehouse]

My guess is you've overtaxed your brain. It most likely needs time to recover, the brain isn't a muscle so perhaps over training it won't have the same level of negative result. Nonetheless I'd suggest taking a break between training sessions seeing how you feel and if symptoms improve go back to your previous pace.

I'd also suggest replacing tDCS with tRNS. I'm new so I can't post the link to the study i'm about to reference, but basically tDCS was shown to have some negative effects in areas opposite to those trained. The same study author conducted another study using similar methods except this time using tRNS and found improvements in cognition with no noticeable negative effects. I'd err on the side of caution and train the same area using tRNS.

I was planning on buying the Heg unit so i'm going to be following your progress closely. Wish you luck

[AscendantMind]

Interesting note about the tDCS. I have been stimulating my left PFC, and I have noticed that with the HEG unit it is much more difficult for me to increase bloodflow in my right PFC than my left. Perhaps the tDCS is a cause.

Are you aware of any tRNS devices available?

[Raisinthehouse]

The Foc.us has a tRNS setting when purchased with the extra pack.

[umop 3pisdn]

I generally find it more difficult to raise the HEG gain measure in the right prefrontal cortex, and all I am doing is training with the HEG, that may just be a lateralized difference in brain development, if so I am also subject to it. Also the heavy mind phenomenon is something I have experienced, I think it is a result of emphasizing attention too much. You mention meditation, one component of which is deliberately collecting or unifying your mind through the faculty of attention, but that generally needs to be balanced with mindfulness or one's mental state destabilizes towards a state of hyper-tranquility or a kind of 'head made of stone' phenomenon, mindfulness is in some ways a less deliberate, willful, or directed sensitization to general experience, developing it to a similar degree will sensitize you to your general experience and will result in less of that sensation of impassiveness or being kind of numbed to the rest of your experience.

You may also be overtraining, I would perhaps take a break and just continue with meditation for a while so your skills don't atrophy while you can assess the quality of the training you're doing now.

Edited by umop 3pisdn, 19 September 2013 - 08:16 PM.

[Godof Smallthings]

First of all, Ascendant Mind: Thanks for sharing your really interesting experiment!

In what position is your cathode during tDCS?

How much did you guys pay for your HEG units, and where did you buy them? I've only seen prohibitive prices (for me) so far.

Difficulty in concentrating on what people are saying unless it is interesting--partly because my thoughts can go five different directions within the space of someone saying a sentence

Have you tried to use the same technique you use to increase HEG bloodflow when listening to people? I am not sure exactly how the HEG training works. Maybe if it is visual, you could try to alternate with a HEG training regime geared towards focus on audio instead? Just speculating.

I also find it a bit strange that you say your internal thoughts have reduced, but then say "my thoughts can go five different directions within the space of someone saying a sentence". Is this a contradiction or am I just not understanding what you are trying to say?

Sleep variations could be an effect of meditation; if your meditation is deep, it can reduce your need for deep sleep.

The heavy mental feeling: perhaps the low carb diet combined with intense effort is not optimal?, perhaps you are just spending longer periods in a meditative state, making it more difficult to adjust back into "beta" level.

Edited by Godof Smallthings, 20 September 2013 - 03:46 AM.

[AscendantMind]

Hi GodofSmallThings. Thanks for the reply.

When doing tDCS I put the cathode on my right shoulder.

Regarding the HEG technique--unfortunately, I don't believe I could do it when talking to people. It requires very intense, single-minded focus for me, and I would probably lose track of what people are saying. The training is visual, but and audio version is an interesting idea. I would probably need a new piece of software though. By the way, I got my HEG from Upgraded Self. It was a bit pricey, but I had some really good coupons and so snagged it for $900.

About the internal thoughts thing--sorry, that wasn't too clear. Yes, unnecessary thoughts are in fact reduced. But just in the past couple of days, if I talk to someone and were to, for example, look at my computer or a piece of paper, I would become absorbed enough in it that I would filter out the person's speech. I would then return to it and have to replay what the person said in my phonological loop, but it probably makes me look disinterested in what some people are saying.

I think you may be right about the beta state. I believe it's been harder to get back into it. In any case, after taking it easy for a couple of days I'm finally feeling the oppressive feeling abate this evening. (But then, I only notice it when there is a large number of stimuli. I'm perfectly fine while on the computer, focusing in on something.) I'll relax tomorrow as well, and try resuming on Saturday.

Edited by AscendantMind, 20 September 2013 - 04:03 AM.

[Raisinthehouse]

This is pretty interesting. I was considering doing something very similar when I had all the equipment needed, and I was wondering about possible over training effects.

Perhaps consider replacing DnB with something a little more cognitively beneficial. I've reached DnB levels of 12 at my peak and noticed no noticeable boost in cognition. It seems to be more a way of tracking working memory than improving it. I'd suggest meditation in place of DnB considering it has known cognitive benefits.

[jtoomim]

Hi. I'm the guy who made the nIR HEG device you're using.

What you report about the sudden gain in HEG is pretty common. Once you've learned how to control it, gains of 30% are pretty common. It usually takes me about 10 minutes to achieve that magnitude of increase, but I've seen many people achieve that within a couple minutes instead. (What can I say: apparently, I'm slow.)

About the negative effects: There are many possible explanations for the negative sides you reported.

tDCS is a powerful technology, and its effects are complex. Using a shoulder cathode is not equivalent to an cathode-less system; rather, it's a distributed cathode. The current path from F3 to your shoulder is likely to include the reticular formation and the locus ceruleus; inhibition of those structures due to tDCS would quite likely result in mental heaviness, mental fog, and sleep abnormalities.

On the other hand, overtraining with HEG can also result in mental fatigue, headaches, and sleep disturbances. Many people (e.g. me) can train HEG daily with no ill effects; others get negative sides if they train more than once a week. Negatives generally only exist if your training exceeds some frequency threshold.

I suggest you stop everything cold turkey, then add the interventions one-by-one until you figure out which one is producing the negatives.

Jonathan

[Godof Smallthings]

Hi Jonathan. Maybe try to take some ginkgo before you do your HEG training. I have found it helps me focus quicker, and it seems to be related to bloodflow. (as I use a Neurosky MindWave EEG headset to measure focus, I am not sure if it is related to bloodflow, but I still suspect so, when my attention values are the highest I seem to experience a feeling of cranial pressure in the frontal lobes).

Edited by Godof Smallthings, 22 September 2013 - 02:43 AM.

[Wu Hang]

Hi Jonathan my experience shows that tDCS shouldn't be used for more than 40 minutes (2X amount of the time used in studies) because it would induce unwanted side effects such as loss in appetite, nausea, or dizziness. it shouldn't be used past 9pm because it induces insomnia which lasts for 48 hours for me. It would enhance the stimulants' effect as well as decreasing its side effects, so you might want to try using stimulants to balance the effects.

As for lion's Mane, that could be the cause of your running thoughts during a conversation, as I often find that's the case.

Also high protein diet makes the experience much more intense with the combination you describes, as long as you don't overuse it as I do sometimes

[Wu Hang]

also just my 2cents, you might not want a significant improvement in neuro-plasticity if your don't increase your overall blood flow in your body, as it would cause long term side effects to your liver and kidney, I personally believe that it's harder for a 6 foot tall adult to maintain his plasticity than a 1 foot child because it requires faster nutrient transmission in order to sustain the high level mental activities required to create synapse.

[AscendantMind]

Thanks everyone, I appreciate all the replies. I've taken a break from all the disciplines and find my mental states returning to normal, though still with strongly enhanced focus.

Jonathan, I'm really glad to have your input. The HEG is quite a device! Is there a point at which effects begin to plateau and training moves into maintenance mode? I'm thinking of how to plan my long-term training strategy with the device.

In any case, as per the suggestions here, I'm going to quit these things for now (except meditation), phase into Lostfalco's TULIP protocol, and gradually add back the nIR HEG. Afterwards I may resume dual-n-back, but will probably stop experimenting with tDCS.

In related news, anyone looking for an iontophoresis device for tDCS?

[AscendantMind]

Just an update:

Symptoms continued for two weeks, during which time I stopped all nootropics and all other enhancers. I was getting seriously worried, but then developed a hypothesis that ALCAR, by its mild stimulant-like effects and ability to improve the energy produced by neural mitochondria, could be beneficial. (I discovered this in part from reading anecdotal evidence that it was useful at alleviating mental fatigue after a long day). I began supplementing 1,000mg a day in two divided doses. Consequently, symptoms of mental fatigue were alleviated, and function and feeling returned to baseline.

Sleep disturbances still occurred, so I added 344 mg daily of magnesium in the forms of magnesium malate and magnesium threonate. Almost immediately, deep sleep (according to my actigraph) improved from ~35% to ~42%, which is fairly normal for me. Waking up in the night also ceased.

Surprisingly, I now find that I am very rested these days despite having experienced a slight reduction in sleep (because I now wake up before my alarm clock goes off).

Edited by AscendantMind, 03 October 2013 - 01:03 PM.

[jadamgo]

Please tell me how closely the following pattern matches what you experienced:

1.) Had a period of really good meditation sessions (maybe really REALLY good, or maybe just felt very clear and focused and energetic, even outside of meditation), and this was around the same time you were experiencing restless sleep, yet you weren't very tired during the day.

2.) Soon after that, experienced brainfog, fatigue, perhaps some motivational deficits, and suddenly felt like meditation sessions were drowsy and unfocused, and this happened around the same time that you were getting increased deep sleep at night.

3.) Past that point, you started to experience increased negative emotions, perhaps anxiety, perhaps irritability, perhaps sadness. Meditation may have felt more unpleasant, or even as if it made things temporarily worse.

4a.) Either you kept meditating and found that one day everything just seemed okay, and you weren't really bothered anymore, and it seemed like nothing was happening when you meditated (even though you experienced strong, clear, easy focus every time you sat).
OR, if you quit meditating at this point:
4b.) The negative emotions and brain fog gradually faded back to normal as you stopped meditation.

Is that similar to what you experienced? If not, please disregard this post. But if that was similar to what happened to you, then it wasn't (entirely) due to the nootropics.

[Raisinthehouse]

Symptoms continued for two weeks, during which time I stopped all nootropics and all other enhancers. I was getting seriously worried, but then developed a hypothesis that ALCAR, by its mild stimulant-like effects and ability to improve the energy produced by neural mitochondria, could be beneficial. (I discovered this in part from reading anecdotal evidence that it was useful at alleviating mental fatigue after a long day). I began supplementing 1,000mg a day in two divided doses. Consequently, symptoms of mental fatigue were alleviated, and function and feeling returned to baseline.

This is really interesting, I wonder if the tulip methodology will allow us to recover from brain training quicker? If ALCAR alone resulted in a cessation of symptoms, I'm willing to bet tulip would act even quicker/better.

[Godof Smallthings]

Please tell me how closely the following pattern matches what you experienced:

1.) Had a period of really good meditation sessions (maybe really REALLY good, or maybe just felt very clear and focused and energetic, even outside of meditation), and this was around the same time you were experiencing restless sleep, yet you weren't very tired during the day.

2.) Soon after that, experienced brainfog, fatigue, perhaps some motivational deficits, and suddenly felt like meditation sessions were drowsy and unfocused, and this happened around the same time that you were getting increased deep sleep at night.

3.) Past that point, you started to experience increased negative emotions, perhaps anxiety, perhaps irritability, perhaps sadness. Meditation may have felt more unpleasant, or even as if it made things temporarily worse.

4a.) Either you kept meditating and found that one day everything just seemed okay, and you weren't really bothered anymore, and it seemed like nothing was happening when you meditated (even though you experienced strong, clear, easy focus every time you sat).
OR, if you quit meditating at this point:
4b.) The negative emotions and brain fog gradually faded back to normal as you stopped meditation.

Is that similar to what you experienced? If not, please disregard this post. But if that was similar to what happened to you, then it wasn't (entirely) due to the nootropics.

Describing a meditation cycle into A&P followed by a Dark Night?

[jadamgo]

Describing a meditation cycle into A&P followed by a Dark Night?

Yes, exactly. The pattern of the symptoms coinciding with the 30-60min zazen per day set off a few alarm bells.

[AscendantMind]

Please tell me how closely the following pattern matches what you experienced:

1.) Had a period of really good meditation sessions (maybe really REALLY good, or maybe just felt very clear and focused and energetic, even outside of meditation), and this was around the same time you were experiencing restless sleep, yet you weren't very tired during the day.

Not quite the same here. Sleeping disturbances didn't begin until later.

2.) Soon after that, experienced brainfog, fatigue, perhaps some motivational deficits, and suddenly felt like meditation sessions were drowsy and unfocused, and this happened around the same time that you were getting increased deep sleep at night.

I experienced the above, but that happened as deep sleep decreased.

3.) Past that point, you started to experience increased negative emotions, perhaps anxiety, perhaps irritability, perhaps sadness. Meditation may have felt more unpleasant, or even as if it made things temporarily worse.

I didn't experience these.

4a.) Either you kept meditating and found that one day everything just seemed okay, and you weren't really bothered anymore, and it seemed like nothing was happening when you meditated (even though you experienced strong, clear, easy focus every time you sat).

Essentially I'm back to normal meditation now, although my focus has continued to grow. And it generally makes me feel really good, focused, and happier.

This is really interesting, I wonder if the tulip methodology will allow us to recover from brain training quicker? If ALCAR alone resulted in a cessation of symptoms, I'm willing to bet tulip would act even quicker/better.

I bet you're right. I also would guess that TULIP would be strongly enhanced with the addition of ALCAR and ALA.

[lourdaud]

Are you still using the nirHEG?

[AscendantMind]

Describing a meditation cycle into A&P followed by a Dark Night?

Could you elaborate on what this is? I'm curious.

Are you still using the nirHEG?

I've stopped at this point, but intend to resume after trying TULIP for a little while.

[Godof Smallthings]

In the Theravada Buddhist tradition, more specifically within the Burmese branch, and even more specifically within the tradition under Mahasi Sayadaw, there is a map of meditation progress that outlines the defining stages of meditation practice.

This map is generally not revealed until you have already reached what the teacher deems is an advanced enough stage (assessed through the meditator's self-reports of progress in meditation practice - I am actually not sure at what stage one would normally be given access to the maps).

However, some Western meditators who have trained in this tradition found the maps very useful and believe that they should be shared as a tool for people to better assess their own practice. So this has happened. The book Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha by Daniel Ingram (accessible online) is probably the best place to start if you want to learn more about these maps.

Jack Kornfield and Shinzen Young also refer to these maps quite a bit.

Do you have access to a teacher by the way? It would be a good idea to find one otherwise - of course all meditators are different, but some mind states can be difficult to tackle on your own - both very positive and very negative ones.

Edited by Godof Smallthings, 04 October 2013 - 03:34 PM.

[jadamgo]

From your description, it doesn't sound like the A&P/Dark Night hypothesis works out. That's perfectly fine, considering that the problem appears to have been solved.

If you're interested in the basics of how the stages of insight meditation work (and if you continue a daily zazen practice then you will certainly encounter these phenomena sooner or later) Dr. Ron Crouch gives a great overview at http://alohadharma.w...ss.com/the-map/.