591 replies to this topic

[PWAIN]

Hmmm, it was a bit too cheap to be true. I didn't pay attention to if it was extract. Might still work a little bit. I'll probably order the extract later but it is a lot more expensive.

[StanG]

I buy Swanson's Magnolia Extract 90% Standardized Honokiol, why wouldn't this have the same benefit? 

[dazed1]

Without reading all this pages till the end, but i read most of them -  i would have recommend to STOP using any form of vitamin K, it made my CT much worse, i think if you got some thrombosis, it make it quite worse, so please be careful with it.

 

From my experience by now this are 7 products that are most powerful for this condition.

 

 

Tocotrienols 50-100mg/day (with seasame seeds  ~ 20 grams - whole unhuled)

Resveratrol 200-400mg/day

Venous optimizer - 2 caps/day

Na-Rala 200mg/day

Black Seed oil and turmeric - LEF 2 caps per day

Selenium - Methylselenocystine 200mcg/day

Coq10  - Ubiquinol  100 mg/day

 

Not so much powerful but yet very important

 

Magnesium Bisglycinate

Vitamin C with bioflavonoids - Nutribiotic

D3

Boron

Luteolin

Ginger/rosemary (careful if you got high bp!)

Active b complex Drs best 1-2 caps/day

 

Plant based diet, with huge amounts of spinach, beetroots, pomegranate, cocoa (care for blood pressure) bell peppers -alot of them, olives, capers (both salt free) organic lemons, oranges and grapefruits WITH SKIN (away from any supplements/herbs) fermented veggies - sauerkraut especially - tons of them, broccoli sprouts with mustard!!!!! and one of the most underrated things, DO NOT STAY LONG IN COLD WEATHER! DO NOT LET your body gets cold for long time! it makes atherosclerosis MUCH WORSE.

 

Edited by dazed1, 09 November 2017 - 04:16 AM.

[RWhigham]

I buy Swanson's Magnolia Extract 90% Standardized Honokiol, why wouldn't this have the same benefit? 

 

Magnolia officinalis Extract Contains Potent Inhibitors against PTP1B and Attenuates Hyperglycemia in db/db Mice

 

"there was a significant decrease in fasting plasma glucose level of db/db diabetic mice treated orally with 0.5 g/kg ME for 4 weeks. These findings indicated that improvement of insulin sensitivity and hypoglycemic effects of ME may be attributed to the inhibition of PTP1B."

 

Human equivalent dose (HEW) for 500 mg/kg in mice is 500/12 = 42 mg/kg.  (HEW factor for mice is 1/12 but it may not work in this case). 42x70 = 2.9 g per day for a 70 kg man (not realistic). The normally recommended human dose is 200-500 mg once or twice per day. Would that inhibit PTP1B enough to reverse atherosclerosis? We need a study. But honokiol also prevents the sequelae of heart valve disease.

 

About Magnolia extract -  It contains mainly honokiol and magnolol. Perhaps one or both inhibit PTP1B

• Honokiol does not effect the P450 system ref, but 
• Magnolol strongly inhibits CYP1A and 2C ref.

The Swanson label says it's 90% honokiol, so CYP1A and 2C inhibition are probably not a concern at recommended dosage (if you trust the label). Other products say xx% honokiol + magnolol  which could mean xx% is either honokiol or magnolol, and the rest is other minor phytochemical constituents. The vagueness could be deliberately deceptive, since high concentrations of honokiol (98%) are very expensive.

Edited by RWhigham, 10 November 2017 - 06:41 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

What would be grand is if we had some data that compared the relative potency of Magnolia extract to Trodusquemine as inhibitors of PTP1B so that we might arrive at some sort of equivalent dose.

 

 

 

 

[dazed1]

So where can one find that extract? i found one on iherb, but it only contains honokiol?

[Heisok]

50 gram tubs, of extract containg 95% honokiol and magnol.  https://liftmode.com...nolol-fblm.html

[mikey]

Trodusquemine was just heralded in the press as reversing plaque with one dose in mice. I'm trying to learn more, including what a human dose would be and then sources of Trodusquemine.

 

http://www.dailymail...ease-signs.html

 

Any thoughts?

[Rocket]

Trodusquemine was just heralded in the press as reversing plaque with one dose in mice. I'm trying to learn more, including what a human dose would be and then sources of Trodusquemine.

 

http://www.dailymail...ease-signs.html

 

Any thoughts?

 

I don't understand something about the media reports.... They say that atherosclerosis was completely reversed. That is a might bold statement to be making. Are they really saying one dose of this compound and atherosclerosis was vanquished entirely?

[Daniel Cooper]

Here's the paper all those media reports are based off of:

 

 

Pharmacological inhibition of protein tyrosine phosphatase 1B protects against atherosclerotic plaque formation in the LDLR−/− mouse model of atherosclerosis

 

 

 

 

[Darryl]

Following 8 weeks on HFD, a single dose of trodusquemine led to a 20% reduction in body weight, with greater than 50% reduction in fat mass, that accounted for the majority of the effect in weight loss. In addition, in agreement to what has been previously shown, trodusquemine exposure led to reduced food intake in both HFD-fed and CHOW-fed cohorts. This was evidenced at week 9 which was 1 week following commencement of the single dose cohort. 

 

I think the report could have used some more information on behavioral effects, as while this may be therapeutic, it also looks rather like a rather dramatic response to a "toxin". We may be seeing a treatment that will only be approved for inpatient use.

 

I've been learning what I can of the now defunct ‎Genaera corporation, which did Phase I studies with trodusquemine and a biotech with many of the same principals, Ohr Pharmaceutical, which seems to have been assigned the relevant patents around trodusquemine/MSI-1436, but which doesn't mention this or a cardiovascular focus in online material. Their product lead for opthamalogical conditions is squalamine (basically, replace the spermine residue on trodusquemine with spermidine)  Meanwhile, DepYmed Inc. is currently conducting a trial of trodusquemine in metastatic breast cancer. The lab head in the current study, Mirela Delibegovic, doesn't seem affiliated with biotechs, but I don't doubt a narrowly focused patent for atherosclerosis is in the works at U Aberdeen

 

Obviously, I find this a remarkable, if speculative, result.

 

Edited by Darryl, 15 November 2017 - 10:08 PM.

[Rocket]

 

Following 8 weeks on HFD, a single dose of trodusquemine led to a 20% reduction in body weight, with greater than 50% reduction in fat mass, that accounted for the majority of the effect in weight loss. In addition, in agreement to what has been previously shown, trodusquemine exposure led to reduced food intake in both HFD-fed and CHOW-fed cohorts. This was evidenced at week 9 which was 1 week following commencement of the single dose cohort. 

 

I think the report could have used some more information on behavioral effects, as while this may be therapeutic, it also looks rather like a rather dramatic response to a "toxin". We may be seeing a treatment that will only be approved for inpatient use.

 

I've been learning what I can of the now defunct ‎Genaera corporation, which did Phase I studies with trodusquemine and a biotech with many of the same principals, Ohr Pharmaceutical, which seems to have been assigned the relevant patents around trodusquemine/MSI-1436, but which doesn't mention this or a cardiovascular focus in online material. Their product lead for opthamalogical conditions is squalamine (basically, replace the spermine residue on trodusquemine with spermidine)  Meanwhile, DepYmed Inc. is currently conducting a trial of trodusquemine in metastatic breast cancer. The lab head in the current study, Mirela Delibegovic, doesn't seem affiliated with biotechs, but I don't doubt a narrowly focused patent for atherosclerosis is in the works at U Aberdeen

 

Obviously, I find this a remarkable, if speculative, result.

 

 

So what is this now? A fat loss pill?

[Darryl]

Originally, trodusquemine was an experimental treatment for obesity and diabetes, but Genaera ran out of cash before it could conduct Phase II clinical trials, and shut down in 2009. A cholesterol lowering effect was already noted in the patent (first link), but I don't know if the brief discussion of trodusquemine's potential use for treating atherosclerosis gives the current assignee, Ohr Pharma, rights for this purpose. I wish I could recall more about drug IP law: is it the compound, or the compound+potential use.

 

Anyway, there are a large number of PTP1B inhibitors (if that's the mechanism for plaque clearance), with trodusquemine notable for being orally bioavailable with a pretty low IC₅₀.

 

 

 

[albedo]

The recent article by LEF and the references therein might be a useful read:

Vitamin K Reverses Arterial Stiffness

http://www.lifeexten...-See-It/Page-01

 

Another excellent result of Vitamin K2 (MK-7) supplementation in serious kidney disease situations decreasing a potential biomarker of vascular calcification. Hopefully there will be more future studies in the clinical.The used dose of MK-7 is quite high compared to what you typically find (around 100 mcg) which can hopefully be useful as preventative measure. Consider also that Vitamin K is lipid soluble, so it accumulates in tissue. I also suggest a dosage in blood as baseline.

 

"...Hemodialysis patients have profound vitamin K deficiency as assessed by high dp-ucMGP plasma levels. High dp-ucMGP level is significantly correlated with high aortic calcification scores and thus can be used as a non-invasive marker for vascular calcifications. The daily administration of 360 μg of vitamin K₂ (MK-7) decreased dp-ucMGP by 86% after 4 weeks and it was well tolerated. Further studies should be conducted to assess the change in vascular calcifications after an extended duration of therapy..."

 

Aoun M, Makki M, Azar H, Matta H, Chelala DN. High Dephosphorylated-Uncarboxylated MGP in Hemodialysis patients: risk factors and response to vitamin K2, A pre-post intervention clinical trial. BMC Nephrol. 2017;18(1):191.

https://link.springe...7-0609-3#citeas

[revenant]

A company called Esperion Inc. is working toward something very promising.

 

http://investor.espe...leaseID=1062028

 

 

[mikey]

Another excellent result of Vitamin K2 (MK-7) supplementation in serious kidney disease situations decreasing a potential biomarker of vascular calcification. Hopefully there will be more future studies in the clinical.The used dose of MK-7 is quite high compared to what you typically find (around 100 mcg) which can hopefully be useful as preventative measure. Consider also that Vitamin K is lipid soluble, so it accumulates in tissue. I also suggest a dosage in blood as baseline.

 

"...Hemodialysis patients have profound vitamin K deficiency as assessed by high dp-ucMGP plasma levels. High dp-ucMGP level is significantly correlated with high aortic calcification scores and thus can be used as a non-invasive marker for vascular calcifications. The daily administration of 360 μg of vitamin K₂ (MK-7) decreased dp-ucMGP by 86% after 4 weeks and it was well tolerated. Further studies should be conducted to assess the change in vascular calcifications after an extended duration of therapy..."

 

Aoun M, Makki M, Azar H, Matta H, Chelala DN. High Dephosphorylated-Uncarboxylated MGP in Hemodialysis patients: risk factors and response to vitamin K2, A pre-post intervention clinical trial. BMC Nephrol. 2017;18(1):191.

https://link.springe...7-0609-3#citeas

 

Scans showed that 1,000 mcg a day of K2 (MK-7) for a year didn't work for me. 

[pamojja]

Scans showed that 1,000 mcg a day of K2 (MK-7) for a year didn't work for me. 

 

When I was a member of 'TrackYourPlaque' (now https://www.cureality.com/) it actually seemed the experience of most there, that before the usual yearly CAC score increase of 30% decelerated, to have it even grow further the first years. Because vulnerable soft plaque at first would calcify.

 

Therefore my question: Has your increase been less the 30%? Because that would be taken there already as sign of plaque growth decelerating, with hopefully much better results later on.

Edited by pamojja, 07 September 2018 - 11:14 AM.

[mikey]

When I was a member of 'TrackYourPlaque' (now https://www.cureality.com/) it actually seemed the experience of most there, that before the usual yearly CAC score increase of 30% decelerated, to have it even grow further the first years. Because vulnerable soft plaque at first would calcify.

 

Therefore my question: Has your increase been less the 30%? Because that would be taken there already as sign of plaque growth decelerating, with hopefully much better results later on.

 

Thank you for underlining this. My plaque increase was less than 30% and I realize that it took three years for vitamin K2 (MK-7) to exhibit reduced bone loss for postmenopausal women.

 

I admit that a startling change is what I tend to want. I did experience this with Dasatinib and quercetin. Two weeks after the second exposure my blood pressure dropped 15-20 points in both systolic and diastolic. Then, about two months later BP began to rise again. Dasatinib caused unacceptable side-effects for me, though. (I continue to take quercetin almost daily.)

 

I continue to take high dose vitamin K2 (MK-7) knowing that it won't harm and it might help over the long-term.

 

I think that many of us are looking for radical improvements, via a potential panacea. This is what Trodusquemine (MSI-1436) appears to be.

 

One exposure reversed arterial plaque in mice.

 

MSI-1436 has passed safety questions well enough that it is being used in a human breast cancer study.

 

That's why I started a forum on data collection and a group buy for it, viewable at
https://www.longecit...buy-share-data?

[mikey]

Originally, trodusquemine was an experimental treatment for obesity and diabetes, but Genaera ran out of cash before it could conduct Phase II clinical trials, and shut down in 2009. A cholesterol lowering effect was already noted in the patent (first link), but I don't know if the brief discussion of trodusquemine's potential use for treating atherosclerosis gives the current assignee, Ohr Pharma, rights for this purpose. I wish I could recall more about drug IP law: is it the compound, or the compound+potential use.

 

Anyway, there are a large number of PTP1B inhibitors (if that's the mechanism for plaque clearance), with trodusquemine notable for being orally bioavailable with a pretty low IC₅₀.

 

Darrell, that trodusquemine is orally available is valuable information.

 

Will you please consider joining a new forum to share data about trodusquemine for a potential group buy?

 

https://www.longecit...buy-share-data/

[pamojja]

My plaque increase was less than 30% and I realize that it took three years for vitamin K2 (MK-7) to exhibit reduced .

 

I continue to take high dose vitamin K2 (MK-7) knowing that it won't harm and it might help over the long-term.

 

Well done. Congratulations!
 

[DukeNukem]

I'd strongly recommend:

o Vit. D3 (get you levels to 80-100 ng/mL.

o Vit. K2 (both MK-4 and MK-7)

o Pomegranate extract

o Resveratrol

o Magnesium (any type other than oxide)

o Zinc picolinate (20mg / day)

o Eat some 80%+ quality dark chocolate daily

 

Food-wise:

o Greatly minimize inflammatory fats/oils that have over 10% polyunsaturated fatty acids

o Eliminate (if your serious) all cereal-type grains. (Rice is okay, sorghum and millet are excellent choices.)
o Eliminate all seeds of any kind, even chia, hemp, and flax seeds, widely thought to be healthy

o Eliminate any non-berry type of fruit

o Eliminate any processed food that has corn anything, soy anything, wheat anything in it

o Add resistance starches and prebiotics to your foods and sauces (a good gut biome reduces overall inflammation)

Exercise-wise:

o Focus on short-duration, higher-intensity activities (like tennis and most sports) and workouts (avoid long steady-pace activities like jogging)

o (Note that walking is an exception--do as much as you want!)

o Lift weights, build muscle mass

[Captain Obvious]

Excluding the supplementation and sports recommendations, I would suggest eating almost exactly the opposite to what DukeNukem recommends: avoid saturated fat as well as processed meats, eat a lot of seeds, legumes, oats and other soluble fiber containing foods, fats mainly from olive oil, avocados and walnuts. Also consume traditional soy products such as tempeh for protein and polyphenols.

 

But each to their own.

Edited by Captain Obvious, 09 September 2018 - 06:52 AM.

[pamojja]

I'd strongly recommend: ..

 
Already mentioned many pages ago in this thread, I've been suffering from a 80% blockage at the abdominal aorta bifurcation, giving me a 80% walking-disabilty 10 years ago. Since I've been low fat vegan already for 30 years I must have assumed that to have been an contributing factor. Therefore added loads of healthy fats, eggs and fish back in. And about did what Duke recommends, and a bid more (Linus Pauling Therapy, TrackYourPlaque recommendations..). After 6 years the disability has been revoked.
 

I would suggest eating almost exactly the opposite to what DukeNukem recommends.

But each to their own.

 

Yes, to each there own.

[pamojja]

 After 6 years the disability has been revoked.

 

Just had an ultrasound checkup with my internist again. The main stenosis at the abdominal aorta bifurcation still unchanged, all the improvements since having my walking-disability reversed seem to come from revascularisation only. However, my max. CIMT (maximal carotid intimal-media thickness, a surrogate for cardiovascular calcification; <0.9mm normal range) has improved greatly since:

year CIMT

2012 1.3
2014 1.9
2016 1.8
2018 1.0

Almost halved and normal again! However, I'm a bid skeptical with such soft-tissue measurements, which also depends on the skills of the sonographer (last 2 tests have been done by the same). And I'm curios if This improvement is confirmed in future measurements.

 

An other example how much such soft tissue sonographies can change is the size of my thyroid:

year milliliter

2011 16,5
2012 16,7
2013 14,8
2014 17,3
2015 20,5
2016 16,1
2018 13,9

Normal range has been <15, now they increased 'normal' to <20 milliliter. While supplementing about 12mg iodine/iodide in average.

[Rocket]

I'd strongly recommend:

o Vit. D3 (get you levels to 80-100 ng/mL.

o Vit. K2 (both MK-4 and MK-7)

o Pomegranate extract

o Resveratrol

o Magnesium (any type other than oxide)

o Zinc picolinate (20mg / day)

o Eat some 80%+ quality dark chocolate daily

 

Food-wise:

o Greatly minimize inflammatory fats/oils that have over 10% polyunsaturated fatty acids

o Eliminate (if your serious) all cereal-type grains. (Rice is okay, sorghum and millet are excellent choices.)
o Eliminate all seeds of any kind, even chia, hemp, and flax seeds, widely thought to be healthy

o Eliminate any non-berry type of fruit

o Eliminate any processed food that has corn anything, soy anything, wheat anything in it

o Add resistance starches and prebiotics to your foods and sauces (a good gut biome reduces overall inflammation)

Exercise-wise:

o Focus on short-duration, higher-intensity activities (like tennis and most sports) and workouts (avoid long steady-pace activities like jogging)

o (Note that walking is an exception--do as much as you want!)

o Lift weights, build muscle mass

 

People are idiots if they think this is dangerous and irresponsible. I'm sure model boy Geoff is one of them.

Edited by Rocket, 20 December 2018 - 07:11 PM.

[dazed1]

People are idiots if they think this is dangerous and irresponsible

Greatly minimize inflammatory fats/oils that have over 10% polyunsaturated fatty acids

o Eliminate all seeds of any kind, even chia, hemp, and flax seeds, widely thought to be healthy

o Eliminate any non-berry type of fruit

 

This part is. Citrus fruits are amazing sources of bioflavonoids, that boost nitric oxide, which is crucial for CAD.

 

Seeds are one of the healthiest foods ever available.

 

And saturated fat/meats/oils should be excluded or minimized, not prefered.

Edited by dazed1, 24 December 2018 - 06:42 AM.

[pamojja]

For me as someone having progressed to a 80% blocked artery and disabilty on a very low fat diet, and experienced remission on the opposite of a very high fat diet (about 70% calories from fats, mainly saturated and mono-saturated) - I find it strange that the concept of bio-chemical individuality (different ancestors, health history, metabolism, etc.) and individualized nutrition - is still so difficult to grasp for many today. And still aren't able to think no other way than a one size fits all.

 

This part is. Citrus fruits are amazing sources of bioflavonoids, that boost nitric oxide, which is crucial for CAD.

 

Seeds are one of the healthiest foods ever available.

 

And saturated fat/meats/oils should be excluded or minimized, not prefered.

 

I do regularly eat flax, black cumin and sesame seed, but in limits. And total polyunsaturated fats (including omega-3; with o-6 to o-3 ratio of 1:1.25) does actually make up about 15%. Fruits other than berries I can't take as whole fruits, or my blood-sugar goes through the roof (though I do eat half a orange including its peel at times). For the same reason I have to do without any rice for example.

 

Saturated just as monsaturated fats (in an almost 1:1 ratio) have been shown highly beneficial in my case of remission. Though I do see diet as an important factor for this beast of arteriosclerosis to be tamed, it is just one of many. Just ask yourself what causes the initial damage to the endothelium? And after some time it becomes clear that it couldn't be all the lipids, red and white blood cells, or calcification which visit the site for repair.

 

[mikey]

It's simply inflammation.

[pamojja]

It's simply inflammation.

 

I could agree somehow, but there are definitely things additional to the repair-response of inflammation:

 

 

https://drmalcolmken...isease-part-59/

 

Thus:

 

damage > repair = atherosclerosis/CVD

 

repair > damage = no atherosclerosis and/or reversal of plaques.

 

What factors can lead to the situation where damage outstrips repair? First, we need to look at those factors that increase the rate of damage. There are many, many, things that can do this. Here is a list. It is non-exhaustive, it is in no particular order, but it may give you some idea of the number of things that can cause CVD, by accelerating endothelial damage:

• Smoking
• Systemic Lupus Erythematosus
• Use of oral steroids
• Cushing’s disease
• Kawasaki’s disease
• Rheumatoid arthritis
• High blood pressure
• Omeprazole
• Avastin
• Thalidomide
• Air pollution
• Lead (the heavy metal)
• Mercury
• High blood sugar
• Erythema nodosum
• Rheumatoid arthritis
• Low albumin
• Acute physical stress
• Acute mental stress
• Chronic negative mental stress
• Chronic Kidney Disease
• Dehydration
• Sickle cell disease
• Malaria
• Diabetes/high blood sugar level
• Bacterial infections
• Viral infections
• Vitamin C deficiency
• Vitamin B deficiency
• High homocysteine level
• Chronic kidney disease
• Acute renal failure
• Cocaine
• Angiotensin II
• Activation of the renin aldosterone angiotensin system (RAAS) etc.

Blimey, yes, that list was just off the top of my head, I could get you another fifty without much effort. And no, I did not just make it up. I have studied every single one of those factors, and many more, in exhaustive detail. The extent of how many factors there are, should not really come as a surprise to anyone, but it usually does.

 

After all, the bloodstream carries almost everything around the body, and the endothelium faces the bloodstream, it is the first point of contact. If damaging things are being carried about in the blood, the lining of the artery is going to be directly exposed to enemy attack.

 

Moving on, we need to look at factors that make the blood more likely to clot and/or make blood clots that are more difficult to shift.

 

Again, in no particular order here and non-exhaustive:

• Raised fibrinogen levels
• High lipoprotein (a)
• Antiphospholipid syndrome (Hughes’ syndrome)
• Factor V Leiden
• Raised plasminogen activator inhibitor 1 (PAI-1)
• Raised blood sugar levels
• High VLDL (triglycerides)
• Dehydration
• Stress hormones/cortisol
• Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs)
• Acute physical stress
• Acute mental stress.

 

 

[Timothy]

Hi,

 

What is the verdict on Serrapeptase, Natokinase, and Guggul?  I am not qualified enough to determine whether the marketing behind these three are valid. [https://www.ppt-heal...aque-protocol/]

 

1.  Remove the “rebar” – (the protein fibrin that helps hold things together).

2.  Lower the liquidity threshold.  In order for chelation to be effective, the plaque has to be loosened up.

3.  Chelation nutrients – can now do their job and begin removing molecules of the plaque.

 

Is there any agreement on a holistic approach on what is an agreed protocol for reversing arterial plaque?

 

Thanks,

-Tim