591 replies to this topic

[Ambrosia]

Anyone on this thread ended up reversing their arterial plaque ? I’m very interested in this topic

[experimenting]

Yeah, me too. What was the consensus on K vitamins?

[pamojja]

Anyone on this thread ended up reversing their arterial plaque ? I’m very interested in this topic

Then I would recommend to actually read the thread with all it's nuances. Just 1 page ago I posted: https://www.longecit...ndpost&p=857714

[Ambrosia]

Then I would recommend to actually read the thread with all it's nuances. Just 1 page ago I posted: https://www.longecit...ndpost&p=857714

 

Yes i did some reading so basically:

- Vitamin K is useless

- Trodusquemine is the cure for reversing arterial plaque but we can't buy it yet might be years till FDA approves, etc and will probably cost tons

- Caloric restriction might do it

- in your case a healthy fat diet (cheese? fish, etc ) reversed your aterial plaque

- Some are suggesting other sups like Berberine but not enough research proving it

[Daniel Cooper]

What is the evidence that Vitamine K is useless wrt atherosclerosis?  Last I check the jury was still out on that one.  Is there new data?

 

 

 

[pamojja]

Yes i did some reading so basically:
- Vitamin K is useless
- Trodusquemine is the cure for reversing arterial plaque but we can't buy it yet might be years till FDA approves, etc and will probably cost tons
- Caloric restriction might do it
- in your case a healthy fat diet (cheese? fish, etc ) reversed your aterial plaque
- Some are suggesting other sups like Berberine but not enough research proving it

- OP in this thread accoplished slowed-down progression of CAC-score with vitamin K along with other supplements. I know others on an other forum who equaly accomplished that with high vitamin K along with comprehensive supplementation and dietary changes.
- It's a while since reading the whole thread so I might have forgotten, but who ever did reach slowed-down progression with Trodusquemine?
- And who reached slowed-down progression with caloric restriction?
- In my case you really didn't read carefully. It was much more than a healthy fat diet. It included Linus Pauling's therapy, the old 'TrackYourPlaque' forum program of Dr. Davis, and therefore again included everything from dietary changes to comprehesive supplementation. But mine has been a complicated case with many co-conditions.

[adamh]

Reason posted an article recently with studies that showed nattokinase as found in the food natto does reduce arterial plaque. Its in the bioscience news forum. I went ahead and ordered a couple bottles

[Daniel Cooper]

Reason posted an article recently with studies that showed nattokinase as found in the food natto does reduce arterial plaque. Its in the bioscience news forum. I went ahead and ordered a couple bottles

 

Do you have a link to the story you could post?

[adamh]

Do you have a link to the story you could post?

 

Yes though its very easy to find. I had heard good things about nattokinase and improving circulation years ago and had tried it. 

 

https://www.longecit...erotic-lesions/

[Daniel Cooper]

Ah, I forgot that Reason was a poster here.  Fascinating article. 

 

 

 

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 22 January 2019 - 01:54 AM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Does anyone know any contraindications for taking nattokinase? 

 

 

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 22 January 2019 - 03:36 AM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Yes though its very easy to find. I had heard good things about nattokinase and improving circulation years ago and had tried it. 

 

https://www.longecit...erotic-lesions/

 

 

Is there any speculation about the method of action of nattokinase in potentially reversing atherosclerosis?

[smithx]

Yes i did some reading so basically:

- Vitamin K is useless

 

Best not to make such claims without doing substantial research. In this case, you are incorrect:

 

High-Dose Menaquinone-7 Supplementation Reduces Cardiovascular Calcification in a Murine Model of Extraosseous Calcification.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26295257

 

Menaquinone-4 modulates the expression levels of calcification-associated factors to inhibit calcification of rat aortic vascular smooth muscle cells in a dose-dependent manner.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/30214540

 

Vitamin K2 can suppress the expression of Toll-like receptor 2 (TLR2) and TLR4, and inhibit calcification of aortic intima in ApoE-/- mice as well as smooth muscle cells.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28587577

 

Vitamin K2 inhibits rat vascular smooth muscle cell calcification by restoring the Gas6/Axl/Akt anti-apoptotic pathway.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28386842

 

The relationship between vitamin K and peripheral arterial disease.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/27494446
(CONCLUSIONS: High intake of menaquinones was associated with a reduced risk of PAD, at least in hypertensive participants. High intake of phylloquinone was not associated with a reduced risk of PAD.)

 

Ongoing Clinical Trials (human):

 

Bicuspid Aortic Valve Stenosis and the Effect of Vitamin K2 on Calcification Using 18F-Sodium Fluoride Positron Emission Tomography/Magnetic Resonance: The BASIK2 Rationale and Trial Design.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/29561783

 

Effects of menaquinone-7 supplementation in patients with aortic valve calcification: study protocol for a randomised controlled trial.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/30139903

[Kimer Med]

Does anyone know any contraindications for taking nattokinase? 

 

Nattokinase reduces blood coagulation, so if you're prone to bleeding or already taking an anti-coagulant like Warfarin or Coumadin, then Nattokinase is probably contraindicated.

[Timothy]

Does anyone know any contraindications for taking nattokinase? 

 

 

I will give you my feedback and my warning...

 

I combined Nattokinase, Serrapeptase, Vitamin E and Pomegranate extract to great effect (in my opinion, unmeasured).  The Natto and Serra were to remove plaque while vitamine E and Pomegranate were to focus on arterial health and calcium.

 

This was fantastic for some time:

• Running performance went back to my mid 20s (40m)
• Badly cracked heals disappeared completely.
• I felt fantastic in all aspects.

At a point after approximately 3-4 weeks I started to get "missing words" and therefore attributed that to not enough of a way to detoxify any plaque that is being redeposited elsewhere.  I then added Omega 3 and Curcumin thinking this might assist with detoxification.  It was this point where I got to a funny feeling of dizzyness / pressure when holding my forehead.  Very odd.  I expected that I was on the edge of a stroke/bleed and stopped.

 

All in all, my word of warning - Do not use Natto with blood thinners.  I could not find a concrete and reliable way to quantify the impact of blood thinning based on the variety of supplements (E + Omega 3 + Curcumin).  Certainly do not use it with any aspirin.

 

Considering the significance of the reversal of my cracked heals, i really consider that my detoxification pathways of dead cells has become impaired.  I have two questions in blue from my prior use which I still want to solve before reattempting plaque reversal:

 

How do you improve detoxification to make sure that the fibrin is not redeposited elsewhere which may be more damaging in the long term? Will the following work - Olive Leaf ? Curcumin?  Glutathione? Lecithin.  I would note that the quantity of cracked heals fixed makes me worry that the combination was too effective.  I do not know whether the standard detoxification methods for AB are also applicable to the variety of other particles targeted by Natto and Serrapeptase.

 

It seems as Natto crosses the BBB more than Serrapeptase and therefore logically would have a bigger impact on Aβ when compared. What is the benefit of utilizing Natto for Aβ vs the benefit of discarding it and leveraging alternative combinations such as Serrapeptase + Guggul? There is an incredible amount of marketing around both and it is my opinion that someone with sufficient skill is required to judge safe combinations in stacks.

 

Hope my thoughts help,

 

-Tim

[Daniel Cooper]

What were the doses of each of those supplements that you were taking?

 

 

 

[Kimer Med]

Someone asked for references for my earlier comment:

 

A single-dose of oral nattokinase potentiates thrombolysis and anti-coagulation profiles

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4479826/

 

Nattokinase: An Oral Antithrombotic Agent for the Prevention of Cardiovascular Disease

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5372539/

 

Interaction with Warfarin, etc (click on the Interactions tab):

https://www.webmd.co...084/nattokinase

 

What Are the Dangers of Nattokinase?

https://www.livestro...of-nattokinase/

[RichardAlan]

I will give you my feedback and my warning...

 

I combined Nattokinase, Serrapeptase, Vitamin E and Pomegranate extract to great effect (in my opinion, unmeasured).  The Natto and Serra were to remove plaque while vitamine E and Pomegranate were to focus on arterial health and calcium.

 

This was fantastic for some time:

• Running performance went back to my mid 20s (40m)
• Badly cracked heals disappeared completely.
• I felt fantastic in all aspects.

At a point after approximately 3-4 weeks I started to get "missing words" and therefore attributed that to not enough of a way to detoxify any plaque that is being redeposited elsewhere.  I then added Omega 3 and Curcumin thinking this might assist with detoxification.  It was this point where I got to a funny feeling of dizzyness / pressure when holding my forehead.  Very odd.  I expected that I was on the edge of a stroke/bleed and stopped.

 

All in all, my word of warning - Do not use Natto with blood thinners.  I could not find a concrete and reliable way to quantify the impact of blood thinning based on the variety of supplements (E + Omega 3 + Curcumin).  Certainly do not use it with any aspirin.

 

Considering the significance of the reversal of my cracked heals, i really consider that my detoxification pathways of dead cells has become impaired.  I have two questions in blue from my prior use which I still want to solve before reattempting plaque reversal:

 

How do you improve detoxification to make sure that the fibrin is not redeposited elsewhere which may be more damaging in the long term? Will the following work - Olive Leaf ? Curcumin?  Glutathione? Lecithin.  I would note that the quantity of cracked heals fixed makes me worry that the combination was too effective.  I do not know whether the standard detoxification methods for AB are also applicable to the variety of other particles targeted by Natto and Serrapeptase.

 

It seems as Natto crosses the BBB more than Serrapeptase and therefore logically would have a bigger impact on Aβ when compared. What is the benefit of utilizing Natto for Aβ vs the benefit of discarding it and leveraging alternative combinations such as Serrapeptase + Guggul? There is an incredible amount of marketing around both and it is my opinion that someone with sufficient skill is required to judge safe combinations in stacks.

 

Hope my thoughts help,

 

-Tim

 

How much natto were you eating each day?

[Timothy]

What were the doses of each of those supplements that you were taking?

 

Serrapeptase - 2x 20,000 units 3 times a day

Nattokinase - 1x 1000 FU 3 times a day

Vitamin E - 1x 1000 IU 1 time a day 

Pomegranate Extract -1x 226mg 1 time a day

 

then later...

 

Omega 3 - 2x1000 1 time a day

Curcumin (Longvida or Novasol) - 4x 500mg / 1x 500mg  1 time a day

[ryukenden]

Serrapeptase - 2x 20,000 units 3 times a day
Nattokinase - 1x 1000 FU 3 times a day
Vitamin E - 1x 1000 IU 1 time a day
Pomegranate Extract -1x 226mg 1 time a day

then later...

Omega 3 - 2x1000 1 time a day
Curcumin (Longvida or Novasol) - 4x 500mg / 1x 500mg 1 time a day

Which brands do you recommend?

[Kimer Med]

After reading the entire thread, I thought I'd add my two cents.

 

I'm a 59 yo male, and have several cardiac risk factors: high triglycerides (257), high total cholesterol (294), high LDL (209), low HDL (36). I also have high fasting insulin (19.5 uU/mL) and high estradiol. I'm marginally hypothyroid, and take both T4 and T3. Low 24 hr cortisol, which I supplement. Normal testosterone. Fortunately, my BP is normal (120/80 typ) although it can dip into the low range, and I have low hsCRP, low-normal homocysteine (6.4). My HbA1c is 5.8%. So, a reasonably typical case of Syndrome X / Metabolic Syndrome.

 

About 12 yrs ago, I had a Heart Scan done. CAC was 0. Stress echo / treadmill was normal. Head-and-neck CT showed no calcium in my carotid arteries. I don't have any overt cardiac symptoms. I walk around a mile every day, without problems.

 

Due to the ongoing risk factors and other more complex health issues, I've been working hard on my health over the last few years. I've recently lost 30 lbs, changed my diet (which has always been pretty good), and have been exercising more. Just had my lipids and HbA1c re-tested the other day, and am waiting on results.

 

I have a background in biochem, and have been studying cardiac health (and cancer) for a long time. Based on my research, if I had arterial calcification, or if I developed symptoms of cardiac problems, here's what I would do:

 

First, the Rath / Pauling protocol. I saw references to the "Pauling protocol" earlier in this thread, but the Pauling-only protocol is very different from the Rath version, which is specifically focused on cardiac health. The key components (over and above a pretty standard mix of vitamins and minerals) are Lysine (500 mg/d), Proline (500 mg/d) and Vit C (6000 mg/d). Note that this is far from Vit C megadosing. I would take the Vit C in liposomal form (1 gram packet, twice/day), which is about 5x as effective as oral.

 

Next, I'm a big believer in Dr Tom Levy's "Death by Calcium" program. The key components there are:

 

Mg Glycinate, 200 to 400 mg/day (dissolves Ca deposits; decreases all-cause mortality)

Vit K2 (helps dissolve exiting calcifications; decreases cardiac and all-cause mortality)

Vit C (decreases all-cause mortality)

Vit D3 (required for proper Ca utilization)

Testosterone hormone replacement, if needed (levels are inversely related to coronary arterial Ca)

Thyroid hormone replacement, if needed (low thyroid increases all-cause mortality)

 

He also suggests Lysine and Proline, but at somewhat higher levels of Lysine than Rath does -- 1000 to 2500 mg/day.

 

Dr Levy's talk on the subject is excellent:

 

 

The diagram I've attached to this post, summarizing the findings of the EPIC 2004 study, is also relevant. What it shows is that the risk of Coronary Heart Disease (CHD) episodes is completely uncorrelated with cholesterol levels. However, it is strongly correlated with HbA1c. The knee in the curve is at about 6.2%, although decreasing from 6.0% to 4.5% can decrease your risk by 50%. Based on those results, my primary focus over the last few years has been on blood glucose control (where I've had significant success), rather than lipids. I would certainly never take a statin. A cardiac health program that doesn't address high HbA1c is unlikely to be successful in the long term.

 

Attached Files

•  hba1c-vs-heart-disease.jpg   73.79KB   1 downloads

Edited by AceNZ, 25 January 2019 - 12:22 AM.

[Timothy]

Which brands do you recommend?

 

Hi,

 

To be clear - I was not recommending the Omega 3 nor the Curcumin to be adding to the stack.

 

The few brands I recommend got bought out and are not available anymore.

 

-Tim

[Daniel Cooper]

Have any of you considered EDTA chelation therapy?
 
I used to consider this to be quack medicine (mainly because the American Heart Association said so) but now think there probably is some actual merit to it.
 
Consider this paper - Chelation therapy to treat atherosclerosis, particularly in diabetes: Is it time to reconsider?

There are a number of studies out there now that tend to point towards chelation therapy as being useful in treating atherosclerosis.

Consider the NNT (number needed to treat) in that paper above - 6.5. You have to treat a bit over 6 patients to avoid one cardiac event. Compare that to the "gold standard of atherosclerosis treatment" i.e. statins. The papers I read on statins imply a NNT of anywhere from 60 to 120. But you wont' find many cardiologists in the world that aren't writing a dozen statin scripts a day (statins are an $11B USD business in the US alone).

I have a theory that we actually know some things that will reverse soft plaques (urolithin, nattokinase, trehalose, etc. etc.) but these treatments won't do anything to reverse calcified plaques. I think that's why we have a number of things that are shown to reduce intima media thickness but we rarely see CAC scores decrease.  I believe that once you have a calcified plaque it's there unless you chemically erode it. 

 

I think EDTA might be the only thing that we know of that will reverse these calcifications. I would suggest that what we need is a one/two treatment - Any of the things that we have shown to reduce intima media thickness combined with EDTA chelation.

 

 

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 25 January 2019 - 03:59 PM.

[Kimer Med]

Have any of you considered EDTA chelation therapy?

 

Yes.

 

I knew a doc (Robert Cathcart) who did a lot of EDTA chelation IVs, and I had several done myself back in the day (~20 yrs ago). Cathcart reported good success with his patients regarding reversing arterial calcifications (I was doing it for different reasons back then).

 

However, based on the research I've done since then, I think I would use EDTA differently now than the way it's normally recommended. Rather than a course of 20 or so twice a week, I would do maybe one a month. The main goal would be to significantly reduce blood and tissue calcium levels, to create a concentration gradient that makes it easier for calcifications to dissolve using things like magnesium and K2. Then, when the concentration gradient equalizes after a few weeks, repeat the process. It's possible that an adequate effect could be achieved with oral EDTA; I haven't looked into it enough to know for sure.

 

The Big Problem I have with EDTA is that in spite of its affinity for calcium, it also pulls healthy nutrients out of the body -- so if you're on the edge nutritionally, it can backfire big time if you're not extra careful. I know this, because it happened to me.

[granmasutensil]

Have any of you considered EDTA chelation therapy?
 
I used to consider this to be quack medicine (mainly because the American Heart Association said so) but now think there probably is some actual merit to it.
 
Consider this paper - Chelation therapy to treat atherosclerosis, particularly in diabetes: Is it time to reconsider?

There are a number of studies out there now that tend to point towards chelation therapy as being useful in treating atherosclerosis.

Consider the NNT (number needed to treat) in that paper above - 6.5. You have to treat a bit over 6 patients to avoid one cardiac event. Compare that to the "gold standard of atherosclerosis treatment" i.e. statins. The papers I read on statins imply a NNT of anywhere from 60 to 120. But you wont' find many cardiologists in the world that aren't writing a dozen statin scripts a day (statins are an $11B USD business in the US alone).

I have a theory that we actually know some things that will reverse soft plaques (urolithin, nattokinase, trehalose, etc. etc.) but these treatments won't do anything to reverse calcified plaques. I think that's why we have a number of things that are shown to reduce intima media thickness but we rarely see CAC scores decrease.  I believe that once you have a calcified plaque it's there unless you chemically erode it. 

 

I think EDTA might be the only thing that we know of that will reverse these calcifications. I would suggest that what we need is a one/two treatment - Any of the things that we have shown to reduce intima media thickness combined with EDTA chelation.

 

The evidence for EDTA's effectiveness for heart disease is actually quite extensive.

http://beta.asoundst...apy_History.pdf
 

[granmasutensil]

Yes.

 

I knew a doc (Robert Cathcart) who did a lot of EDTA chelation IVs, and I had several done myself back in the day (~20 yrs ago). Cathcart reported good success with his patients regarding reversing arterial calcifications (I was doing it for different reasons back then).

 

However, based on the research I've done since then, I think I would use EDTA differently now than the way it's normally recommended. Rather than a course of 20 or so twice a week, I would do maybe one a month. The main goal would be to significantly reduce blood and tissue calcium levels, to create a concentration gradient that makes it easier for calcifications to dissolve using things like magnesium and K2. Then, when the concentration gradient equalizes after a few weeks, repeat the process. It's possible that an adequate effect could be achieved with oral EDTA; I haven't looked into it enough to know for sure.

 

The Big Problem I have with EDTA is that in spite of its affinity for calcium, it also pulls healthy nutrients out of the body -- so if you're on the edge nutritionally, it can backfire big time if you're not extra careful. I know this, because it happened to me.

 

Dr Gary Gordon is probably one of the best experts on EDTA. He says the studies show long term oral chelation is actually more effective than IV EDTA which is good news. He also says it should never be done without a good multi mineral, which then allows for it's safe long term use and in fact that the EDTA actually facilitates the utilization of the minerals by the body then. He mentioned a study showing it actually reversed a zinc deficiency. But as far as taking it for heart disease he says he got 30 million from the NIH for a study on it decades ago which showed EDTA+Omega3 together reduced mortality from heart disease over 90% vs around 50% with EDTA alone. I also found it interesting to mention he also addressed how EDTA doesn't cross the blood brain barrier when asked and what about the heavy metals in brain tissue. He said after they've been reduced in the rest of the body they will migrate overtime out of the brain tissue as the body trys to achieve homeostasis and then will be able to be chelated. He says it takes around 9 months to remove the heavy metals from soft tissue and around 15 years from the bones due to the rate they remodel. He says a albion multi mineral is sufficient and although it's good to take at different times it's no big deal to take it all together.

 

Here is some of the information on EDTA you might find useful. What I mentioned is from his long form interviews.

http://beta.asoundst...apy_History.pdf

[dazed1]

Serrapeptase - 2x 20,000 units 3 times a day

Nattokinase - 1x 1000 FU 3 times a day

Vitamin E - 1x 1000 IU 1 time a day 

Pomegranate Extract -1x 226mg 1 time a day

 

then later...

 

Omega 3 - 2x1000 1 time a day

Curcumin (Longvida or Novasol) - 4x 500mg / 1x 500mg  1 time a day

 

Your omega 3 dosage is low, and if you take it take 4x1000mg, together with the curcumin, and vit E.

Edited by dazed1, 04 February 2019 - 03:00 PM.

[QuestforLife]

After reading the entire thread, I thought I'd add my two cents.

 

......

 

The diagram I've attached to this post, summarizing the findings of the EPIC 2004 study, is also relevant. What it shows is that the risk of Coronary Heart Disease (CHD) episodes is completely uncorrelated with cholesterol levels. However, it is strongly correlated with HbA1c. The knee in the curve is at about 6.2%, although decreasing from 6.0% to 4.5% can decrease your risk by 50%. Based on those results, my primary focus over the last few years has been on blood glucose control (where I've had significant success), rather than lipids. I would certainly never take a statin. A cardiac health program that doesn't address high HbA1c is unlikely to be successful in the long term.

 

You might want to reconsider never taking a statin​ as this in combination with a sartan is precisely what has been shown - in low, intermittent doses - to reverse atherosclerosis.

 

https://www.research...middle-aged_men

[pamojja]

You might want to reconsider never taking a statin​ as this in combination with a sartan is precisely what has been shown - in low, intermittent doses - to reverse atherosclerosis.

https://www.research...middle-aged_men

You may want to reread that study more carefully. It doesn't mention reduction of coronary calcium score, or even reduction of mortality. The case with statins is pretty seddled, in average it reduces 5 year mortality in 1 out of 84 how take statins for 5 years (in those with previous cardiovascular events, for primary prevention that number becomes sheer astronomical.)

[pamojja]

what I would do:

First, the Rath / Pauling protocol. I saw references to the "Pauling protocol" earlier in this thread, but the Pauling-only protocol is very different from the Rath version, which is specifically focused on cardiac health. The key components (over and above a pretty standard mix of vitamins and minerals) are Lysine (500 mg/d), Proline (500 mg/d) and Vit C (6000 mg/d). Note that this is far from Vit C megadosing. I would take the Vit C in liposomal form (1 gram packet, twice/day), which is about 5x as effective as oral.

I've to give a warning. At the vitaminCfoundation forum, where most Pauling therapy users turn up, it is a common occurance that newcomers complain about it not working. On being asked it almost always turn out they misunderstood Rath's protocol being the same as Paulings, or that Pauling's only consisted of vitamin C and l-lysine. While Pauling recommented much more and just to maintain good health:

How to Live Longer and Feel Better

Take vitamin C every day, 6 grams to 18 g (6000 to 18,000 milligrams), or more. Do not miss a single day.
Take vitamin E every day, 400 IU, 800 IU, or 1600 IU.
Take one or two Super-B tablets every day, to provide good amounts of the B-vitamins.
Take 25,000 IU vitamin A tablet every day.
Take a mineral supplement every day, such as one tablet of the Bronson vitamin-mineral formula, which provides 100 mg of calcium, 18 mg of iron, 0.15 mg of iodine, 1 mg of copper, 25 mg of magnesium, 3 mg of manganese, 15 mg of zinc, 0.015 mg of molybdenum, 0.015 mg of chromium, and 0.015 mg of selenium.
Keep your intake of ordinary sugar (sucrose, raw sugar, brown sugar, honey) to 50 pounds per year, which is half the present U.S. average. Do not add sugar to tea or coffee. Do not eat high-sugar foods. Avoid sweet desserts. Do not drink soft drink.
Except for avoiding sugar, eat what you like - but not too much of any one food. Eggs and meat are good foods. Also you should eat some vegetables and fruits. Do not eat so much food as to become obese.
Drink plenty of water every day.
Keep active; take some exercise. Do not at any time exert yourself physically to an extent far beyond what you are accustomed to.
Drink alcoholic beverages only in moderation.
Do not smoke cigarettes.
Avoid stress. Work at a job that you like. Be happy with your family.

which itself simply wouldn't suffice with something as serious as progressed calcification. Neither would Rath's Mini protocol.