591 replies to this topic

[TheFountain]

I had a heart scan last year, and had a calcium score of zero, which I was very relieved to see, given the dyslipidemia (high lp(a)) that I had then recently discovered. I quit using a multi about three or four years ago, but took one (with more copper than I'd want today) for about 20 years. I've been using vitamin K for a while, probably about 5 years. My diet is "paleo-ish", moderate carb. I also had a carotid artery scan, and I do have some mild disease there. I've heard a cardiologist say that lp(a) "skews to the head", so that's consistent with my results.

Hey Niner,

 

Old post but I was wondering what your Vitamin K dose was up till that point? 

 

And how are you doing these days?

[Daniel Cooper]

Unfortunately niner disappeared about 2 years ago without a trace.  Shame, he was a very valuable resource. 

 

Hope he's ok.

 

 

 

[TheFountain]

Having gone through a MI, I know from hard-earned experience that subjective impressions can be misleading, if not worthless. The day before my heart attack I was feeling energetic and (subjectively) very healthy. Literally no clue what was about to hit me.

 

So what I worry about is not wasting a few pennies a day. I'm quite willing to make the investment. What I'm really worried about is wasting time, which is my most precious commodity. I can ill afford to waste time on interventions that do not work for me. And I need to be able to objectively verify that they work for me.

 

Insofar as that is possible, of course. Metrics may not always be available, but they should be used when they are.

It appeared to me that what he was asking was what issues did you have with the K2 Studies showing it works?

[TheFountain]

PeaceAndProsperity, perhaps consider other people's circumstances may be different from your own.

I have found that when I take k2 or vit c, I get pain in my kidneys. If I take more, even my liver hurts. I am currently just taking it when I can, not too often so as to avoid the issue. I'm not going to kill my kidneys to maybe save my heart.

So far I have not had any problems when taking cyclodextrin. There also appears to be better independent evidence for cyclo than the other 2. I not much on stories of how someone was cured but there is no evidence or it is one off, not part of properly controlled and run trial. Too much BS out there.

Where do you source it from? Are you still taking it?

[mikey]

A CREDIBLE REPORT ABOUT HOW TO REVERSE PLAQUE.

I haven't been on this forum for a while, but I see that a seemingly credible report of a chemist that reversed his own plaque appeared a couple of pages back.

I have NOT seen in scans that anything that I've done has reversed my plaque scores.

 

However, a chemist provided a report that contained information that I had not seen before. 

It is Want to Reverse Your Calcification and Heart Disease? Here's How! Podcast Ep21

 

I am about to mimic his protocol. Anyone else that does please report on results over time. 

I will report on what my scans show as I use his protocol - over a period of time. Everything this serious tends to require consistency over time.

Kind regards!

Edited by mikey, 10 June 2019 - 01:09 AM.

[Daniel Cooper]

I'll watch when I get some time to devote to it, but can you tell us the gist of what he's saying?

 

 

 

[mikey]

I'll watch when I get some time to devote to it, but can you tell us the gist of what he's saying?

 

 

Daniel. I read his entire text and there was information in it that is critical to getting plaque to exit the arterial endothelium (lining), without causing damage, like plaque dropping off and causing arterial blockage.

It was complex and interesting and he has 28 scans that show that it worked. 

I just moved to Portland after 25 years in Los Angeles, so my major life change at 66 years of age presents many challenges.

I am just able to make time to focus on taking this experiment on this week. 
 

I strongly suggest that others study and work with his approach and collectively report what happens over a period of six months to two years.

I founded this forum to find the answer I need to clear my arteries and live longer. 

I hope others take this seriously. We can go through dozens of issues, vitamin K2 (MK-7), magnesium, etc.... but I think this chemist's report has the best potential to resolve my issues with plaque.

 

I sincerely wish that others would focus on this approach rather than spend precious time going back and forth with the trivia that we all find available and then collectively report our experiences scientifically (such as with scans).

 

With strong regard,
Michael

[mikey]

Daniel. I read his entire text and there was information in it that is critical to getting plaque to exit the arterial endothelium (lining), without causing damage, like plaque dropping off and causing arterial blockage.

It was complex and interesting and he has 28 scans that show that it worked. 

I just moved to Portland after 25 years in Los Angeles, so my major life change at 66 years of age presents many challenges.

I am just able to make time to focus on taking this experiment on this week. 
 

I strongly suggest that others study and work with his approach and collectively report what happens over a period of six months to two years.

I founded this forum to find the answer I need to clear my arteries and live longer. 

I hope others take this seriously. We can go through dozens of issues, vitamin K2 (MK-7), magnesium, etc.... but I think this chemist's report has the best potential to resolve my issues with plaque.

 

I sincerely wish that others would focus on this approach rather than spend precious time going back and forth with the trivia that we all find available and then collectively report our experiences scientifically (such as with scans).

 

With strong regard,
Michael

 

And by the way, high dose vitamin K2 (MK-7) showed NO EFFECT on my calcium scans over a two year period..

[TheFountain]

And by the way, high dose vitamin K2 (MK-7) showed NO EFFECT on my calcium scans over a two year period..

Didn't it reduce the % of progression? 

 

According to this Doc, Vitamin K was the missing link he discovered in 2010. 

[mikey]

Didn't it reduce the % of progression? 

 

According to this Doc, Vitamin K was the missing link he discovered in 2010. 

 

Yes, Did not reverse coronary plaque.

Which Dr? Does he sell a K2 product? (Which might make him disqualified for his "report.")

I peronally know the research team run by Dr. Schurgers at Masatrich Univeristy in the Netherlands for the last dozen years.He is likely the leader in this research.

 

He was sent to California to confer with me.

 

Please tell us which Dr. you are referring to so that we might learn about of his credibility..

Edited by mikey, 10 June 2019 - 06:34 AM.

[mikey]

Didn't it reduce the % of progression? 

 

According to this Doc, Vitamin K was the missing link he discovered in 2010. 

 

 

Again, Doctor Who?

[pamojja]

I sincerely wish that others would focus on this approach rather than spend precious time going back and forth with the trivia that we all find available and then collectively report our experiences scientifically (such as with scans).

 

With strong regard,
Michael

 

Finally after many years posting in this thread at least one person mentioned    

 

Aleady at the beginning of the tread I posted a link to the TrackYourPlaque forum, where Patrick has been member even before I joined, and regularly available for a chat. In 2016 for example I posted a link to his historical stack in 2011:

 

    One guy on the TrackYourPlaque forum started high dose vitamin K2 already about 6 years ago, by using bulk powders. He did yearly scans which showed repeatedly reduction of his CAC score. In this process he started to produce his own Vitamin Ks product, since it otherwise isn't available at such doses, along documenting his experiences and research:

    http://www.k-vitamins.com/

    However, he does take a lot of things as shown in his January 2011 regime.

 

Almost feels like I can retire now..

I already reported my remission for a 60% walking-disabilty from PAD (due to a 80% stenosis at my abdominal aorta bifurcation), and a reduction of 1.9 to 1mm (normal < 0.9) of my max. CIMT some time ago. But such real remissions notoriously got overseen in this thread.. in favor of a magic pill.

 

Edited by pamojja, 10 June 2019 - 11:33 AM.

[pamojja]

Didn't it reduce the % of progression? 

 

According to this Doc, Vitamin K was the missing link he discovered in 2010. 

 

Which Dr? Does he sell a K2 product? (Which might make him disqualified for his "report.")

 

Again, Doctor Who?

 

Since TheFountain talks about finding the missing link in 2010, he can only talk about Patrick in the YouTube video as the 'Doc'.

 

And Patrick is also the only person making such a high dose vitamin-K product available at a reasonable price. In fact, at that time he asked for feedback at TrackYourPlaque on his plan to put in 50mg of K2-mk4, 1mg of K2-mk7 and 10mg of K1 in one capsule! Gladly he listened to my advise for not marketing anything which hasn't already been studied, for finding a broader market. Like the K2-mk4 doses in Japan. And he indeed settled on half the dose per capsules, which I still could afford. So now his report is 'disqualified' because he is the only one having brought such a high-dose product on the market? - I would think twice, because as he also said in the YouTube, he hasn't made even a penny from that unique product.

Edited by pamojja, 10 June 2019 - 01:24 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Is there some text that I can read on this protocol?  I really hate getting info from a 1hr video, just not conducive to me getting a thorough understanding.

 

 

 

[smithx]

His product:

 

The Koncentrated K capsule has 25 mg of MK-4, 0.5 mg of MK-7, 5 mg of K1 and 2 mg of Astaxanthin.

 

So MK-7 may not do much, but he's saying MK-4 works, which has been my impression. I've been taking 5mg a day of MK-4 for a few years.

 

MK-4 in a dose of 15mg per day is prescribed in Japan for osteoporosis, apparently.

[mikey]

Is there some text that I can read on this protocol?  I really hate getting info from a 1hr video, just not conducive to me getting a thorough understanding.

 

Good things take time AND work. I haven't absorbed his protocol well enough to make it simple. I do strongly suggest taking the time. 1 hour is time we can piss away watching television. Re-watching it = 2 hours.

I delivered it to everyone here - and I did attach a PDF of the text, but we ALL must do some work on it to take care of ourselves. No silver platters served without investment AKA you don't get anything worthwhile without working for it.

If someone will take the time to absorb it and report in we will all be indebted to you. I will eventually watch, but will gradually read through it first. I re-attach it to this post.

Peace!

Attached Files

•  Want-to-Reverse-Your-Calcification-and-Heart-Disease.-Here’s-How.pdf   257.79KB   33 downloads

[TheFountain]

Yes, Did not reverse coronary plaque.

Which Dr? Does he sell a K2 product? (Which might make him disqualified for his "report.")

I peronally know the research team run by Dr. Schurgers at Masatrich Univeristy in the Netherlands for the last dozen years.He is likely the leader in this research.

 

He was sent to California to confer with me.

 

Please tell us which Dr. you are referring to so that we might learn about of his credibility..

 

The Dr. you referred to earlier as a credible source in the youtube video?

[pamojja]

If someone will take the time to absorb it and report in we will all be indebted to you. I will eventually watch, but will gradually read through it first. I re-attach it to this post.

Peace!

 

Wouldn't be very meaningfull to post what he said in the video he takes, and I hope my link above to his stack of 2011 - when he already was regressing and doesn't even mentions K2-mk4 - doesn't simply gets copied. Because he did already many thinks one could consider specific interventions his whole life, and still got terrible calcifcation.

 

For example, he ate 1 time a day keto and took high dose aspirin already most of his life. He considers some daily etanol is helping him, to counter it's bad effects he took high-dose B-vitamins. He believes for vitamin A a carrot a day is all what is needed.

 

While my liver sabotages everything with even a little alcohol, I get bleedings even from a baby-aspirin, and according to my lab-tests I did need preformed vitamin A, and less of the B-vitamins.

 

Therefore use his suggestion wisely in the knowledge of different bio-individuality of each of us.

 

I found 2 other YouTubes, where he goes in some of it in more details, and also emphases the importance to adapt to changing lab tests.

 

 

 

Edited by pamojja, 11 June 2019 - 11:03 AM.

[ta5]

MK-4 in a dose of 15mg per day is prescribed in Japan for osteoporosis, apparently.

 

Glakay is 15mg x 3 per day, so 45mg per day. It's taken 3 times per day because the half-life is short.

[pamojja]

 Therefore use his suggestion wisely in the knowledge of different bio-individuality of each of us.

 

Patrick needed to use amazing amounds of Ks according to CAC scans. For example the 10 mg/d!!! of K2-mk7 in 2011. Meanwhile he seem to have settled on 2 koncentratedK pills per day (10 mg of K1, 50 mg of K2-mk4 and 1 mg of K2-mk7 per day).

 

In my case with a condition already worse then a sky-high CAC scan, and no access to one. I checked with ultra-sound maximal carotid-intima-media-thickness (CIMT). Which is more precise in milimeters (more accessible to ultrasound) than measurements at my main abdomal aorta stenosis, where I only could be told: about a 80% blockage.

 

If I check my records going back to the diagnosis of my PAD 10 years ago, my CIMT in 2012 it was 1.3 mm, in 2014 1.9 mm, in 2016 1.8 mm, and only reduced in 2018 to 1 mm.
 

The first 5 years I gradually increased K1 from 1 to 6 mg/d, K2-mk4 from 1 to 16mg, and K2-mk7 from 100 to 600 mcg per day. Only with the 6th year I experienced complete remission from my walking-disabilty. However, only by 2017 I surpassed the 20 mg/d dose with K2-mk4, and with that also the more sensitive CIMT reduced substancially.

 

So in my case 1 koncentratedK capsule would have sufficed all along.

 

An other example: Patrick uses 10.000 IU in summer, 20.000 in winter. For me already 8.000 IU in average drove my 25(OH)D3 above a 100 ng/dl after some years.

 

So please do test - track your plaque - with all means available, and adjust doses accordingly.

Edited by pamojja, 11 June 2019 - 01:33 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Not to be a naysayer pamojja, but I thought you recently (in the last 6 months) has some arterial scans that showed that your stenosis had not improved.

 

You can get material improvement through exercise even if the underlying stenosis doesn't improve by having secondary arteries increase to take up some of the load.

 

If I've mis-remembered your case apologies.

 

 

 

[pamojja]

Not to be a naysayer pamojja, but I thought you recently (in the last 6 months) has some arterial scans that showed that your stenosis had not improved.

You do remember right. Therefore I tried to explain with the last post the difference between an ultrasound of the carotid and the aorta:

In my case with a condition already worse then a sky-high CAC scan, and no access to one. I checked with ultra-sound maximal carotid-intima-media-thickness (CIMT). Which is more precise in milimeters (more accessible to ultrasound) than measurements at my main abdomal aorta stenosis, where I only could be told: about a 80% blockage.

An abominal aorta is an arthery with about 2 cm in diameter, an about 80% of blockage is about 1.6 cm in solid calcium. Therefore a 0.9 mm decrease of calcification as in the carotid - there about a 45% decrease of calcium! - would only amount to a about 0.07% decrease in the abdominal aorta. And accessed with ultrasound still 'about' 80%. Therefore revascularization, in my case without excercise, would be the most likely explanation for the ceasing of my walking-disabilty (unless 1 mm less calcium there would really could make that much of a difference).

That, however, doesn't makes the reduction of calcification in my carotid by 45% within 2 years any less.

And if you compare the differences in diameter from aorta to carotid, and to again much finer coronary arteries, 1 mm of calcium resolved in the coronaries wouldn't leave much for any calcium there.

But in the end all my meassurements or Patrick's don't count, if you don't meassure yours, and if it is progressing or regressing with the interventions choosen.

Edited by pamojja, 11 June 2019 - 04:36 PM.

[pamojja]

And if you compare the differences in diameter from aorta to carotid, and to again much finer coronary arteries, 1 mm of calcium resolved in the coronaries wouldn't leave much for any calcium there.

 

Actually the precise words after MRI and ultra-sound by my internist at the time of the diagnosis were: 'up to 80% blocked'. Two years later on account of a second ultra-sound only: 'at least 70% blocked' ?!?

 

Which both are really fuzzy assessments, and if one looks at the actual MRI, anyone could make their own fuzzy guess, where I would say, even up to 90% from certain sides (click to enlarge):

 

 

Compare that picture of an diseased aorta with an others old TrackYourPlaque buddy's regression of calcification in the coronaries (click to enlarge):

 

 The image below identifies (white circle) in left descending artery where my stent was placed nine years ago.  The arrow points to wye (in cirumflex artery on backside) that WAS 90% occluded nine years ago; pretty much cleared up today.

 

 LeftDescending.png   175.97KB   0 downloads

 

Keep in mind that the images show the heart sideways as I laid on my back. So, the top is to the left; bottom to the right.

 

Found further down a thread, where he also prescribes in great detail all interventions, and rationals for them (forum needs signing up, but is for free). If you read it you will find a different approach to mine, as mine is different to Patrick's, which is again different to Dr. William Davis. As in his study:

 

American Journal of Therapeutics 16, 326–332 (2009)

 

Effect of a Combined Therapeutic Approach of Intensive Lipid Management, Omega-3 Fatty Acid Supplementation, and Increased Serum 25 (OH)

Vitamin D on Coronary Calcium Scores in Asymptomatic Adults

 

William Davis, MD, FACC,¹* Susie Rockway, PhD, CNS,²
and Mary Kwasny, ScD³

 

The impact of intensive lipid management, omega-3 fatty acid, and vitamin D3 supplementation on atherosclerotic plaque was assessed through serial computed tomography coronary calcium scoring (CCS). Low-density lipoprotein cholesterol reduction with statin therapy has not been shown to reduce or slow progression of serial CCS in several recent studies, casting doubt on the usefulness of this approach for tracking atherosclerotic progression. In an open-label study, 45 male and female subjects with CCS of ≥ 50 without symptoms of heart disease were treated with statin therapy, niacin, and omega-3 fatty acid supplementation to achieve low-density lipoprotein cholesterol and triglycerides ≤ 60 mg/dL; high-density lipoprotein ≥ 60 mg/dL; and vitamin D3 supplementation to achieve serum levels of ≥50 ng/mL 25(OH) vitamin D, in addition to diet advice. Lipid profiles of subjects were significantly changed as follows: total cholesterol 224%, low-density lipoprotein 241%; triglycerides 242%, high-density lipoprotein +19%, and mean serum 25(OH) vitamin D levels +83%. After a mean of 18 months, 20 subjects experienced decrease in CCS with mean change of 214.5% (range 0% to 264%); 22 subjects experienced no change or slow annual rate of CCS increase of +12% (range 1%–29%). Only 3 subjects experienced annual CCS progression exceeding 29% (44%–71%). Despite wide variation in response, substantial reduction of CCS was achieved in 44% of subjects and slowed plaque growth in 49% of the subjects applying a broad treatment program.

 

Which already seem to have worked for 44%, before the time he also added K vitamins, dropped statins and niacin in most cases, and other major changes to the studied protocol.

Edited by pamojja, 11 June 2019 - 09:52 PM.

[ryukenden]

I bought 4 bottles of Koncentrated K to be shipped to Uk.

[smithx]

Apparently Minocycline may help:

https://www.cam.ac.u...ment-identified

 

 

[pamojja]

Apparently Minocycline may help:

https://www.cam.ac.u...ment-identified

 

"Additionally, using rats with chronic kidney disease, the researchers found that minocycline – a widely-prescribed antibiotic often used to treat acne – could treat hardening of the arteries by preventing the build-up of calcium in the circulatory system."

 

In rats with CKD in might be 'preventing the build-up of calcium' - but it most definitely wouldn't have lifted the prediction of earlier death by reversing the build-up in the 3 cases detailed just above, without a 'patented' technology. We could long be gone by now.

 

The technology has been patented and has been licensed to Cycle Pharmaceuticals by Cambridge Enterprise, the University’s commercialisation arm. The researchers are hoping to carry out a proof of principle trial in patients in the next 12 to 18 months.

 

If it works for preventing calcium build-up also in humans, it sure would become the next blog-buster drug. Imaging the whole population (which all are risk of calcification with age) on a antibiotic for life, a great business model.

Edited by pamojja, 12 June 2019 - 07:37 AM.

[macrohistory]

I made MitoQ a part (an expensive part) of my strategy after reading this study from a year ago:

 

 

Hypertension. 2018 Jun;71(6):1056-1063. doi: 10.1161/HYPERTENSIONAHA.117.10787. Epub 2018 Apr 16.

Chronic Supplementation With a Mitochondrial Antioxidant (MitoQ) Improves Vascular Function in Healthy Older Adults.

Rossman MJ1, Santos-Parker JR2, Steward CAC2, Bispham NZ2, Cuevas LM2, Rosenberg HL2, Woodward KA2, Chonchol M3, Gioscia-Ryan RA2, Murphy MP4, Seals DR2,3.

Author information

Abstract

Excess reactive oxygen species production by mitochondria is a key mechanism of age-related vascular dysfunction. Our laboratory has shown that supplementation with the mitochondrial-targeted antioxidant MitoQ improves vascular endothelial function by reducing mitochondrial reactive oxygen species and ameliorates arterial stiffening in old mice, but the effects in humans are unknown. Here, we sought to translate our preclinical findings to humans and determine the safety and efficacy of MitoQ. Twenty healthy older adults (60-79 years) with impaired endothelial function (brachial artery flow-mediated dilation <6%) underwent 6 weeks of oral supplementation with MitoQ (20 mg/d) or placebo in a randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind, crossover design study. MitoQ was well tolerated, and plasma MitoQ was higher after the treatment versus placebo period (P<0.05). Brachial artery flow-mediated dilation was 42% higher after MitoQ versus placebo (P<0.05); the improvement was associated with amelioration of mitochondrial reactive oxygen species-related suppression of endothelial function (assessed as the increase in flow-mediated dilation with acute, supratherapeutic MitoQ [160 mg] administration; n=9; P<0.05). Aortic stiffness (carotid-femoral pulse wave velocity) was lower after MitoQ versus placebo (P<0.05) in participants with elevated baseline levels (carotid-femoral pulse wave velocity >7.60 m/s; n=11). Plasma oxidized LDL (low-density lipoprotein), a marker of oxidative stress, also was lower after MitoQ versus placebo (P<0.05). Participant characteristics, endothelium-independent dilation (sublingual nitroglycerin), and circulating markers of inflammation were not different (all P>0.1). These findings in humans extend earlier preclinical observations and suggest that MitoQ and other therapeutic strategies targeting mitochondrial reactive oxygen species may hold promise for treating age-related vascular dysfunction.

CLINICAL TRIAL REGISTRATION: 

URL: http://www.clinicaltrials.gov. Unique identifier:  NCT02597023.

© 2018 American Heart Association, Inc.

KEYWORDS: 

aging; arterial stiffness; endothelium; mitochondria; reactive oxygen species

Comment in

• Targeting Mitochondria in Age-Related Vascular Changes: A New Arrow to the Bow of Antioxidant Treatment? [Hypertension. 2018]

PMID:   29661838   PMCID:   PMC5945293   DOI:   10.1161/HYPERTENSIONAHA.117.10787

[Indexed for MEDLINE]  Free PMC Article

 

[smithx]

I stopped taking MitoQ after reading this article:

 

The targeted anti‐oxidant MitoQ causes mitochondrial swelling and depolarization in kidney tissue

... MitoQ is a mitochondrial targeted anti‐oxidant that has shown promise in preclinical models of renal diseases. However, recent studies in nonkidney cells have suggested that MitoQ might also have adverse effects. Here, using a live imaging approach, and both in vitro and ex vivo models, we show that MitoQ induces rapid swelling and depolarization of mitochondria in PT cells, but these effects were not observed with SS‐31, another targeted anti‐oxidant.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5880956/

 

 

 

I have some unopened bottles for sale, if anyone wants them.

 

 

[macrohistory]

I stopped taking MitoQ after reading this article:

 

 

I have some unopened bottles for sale, if anyone wants them.

 

In one of the MitoQ-focused threads, Greg MacPherson -- a person who works for the company that sells MitoQ -- addressed that study (back in April 2018):

 

https://www.longecit...4-mitoq/page-11

 

Given MacPherson's general openness to tough questioning in that thread -- and in the light of all the positive MitoQ studies -- I accepted his dismissal of the study and decided to take MitoQ.  I was very favorably impressed by the human study on arterial health published last June, the abstract of which I posted above.

[smithx]

Go back and look at this post and his response in that thread that you linked:

https://www.longecit...-11#entry846058

 

He claimed that the research paper used very high concentrations of MitoQ. The researchers said they didn't. His response was not convincing to me. This is why I stopped taking MitoQ.

 

 

In one of the MitoQ-focused threads, Greg MacPherson -- a person who works for the company that sells MitoQ -- addressed that study (back in April 2018):

 

https://www.longecit...4-mitoq/page-11

 

Given MacPherson's general openness to tough questioning in that thread -- and in the light of all the positive MitoQ studies -- I accepted his dismissal of the study and decided to take MitoQ.  I was very favorably impressed by the human study on arterial health published last June, the abstract of which I posted above.